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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 27, 2008 - 12:50pm PT
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Do you think the pumpy/enduro nature of a climb should affect the rating, or should it be based solely on the hardest move on the route? Is there a gray area?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Sep 27, 2008 - 01:05pm PT
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I have long advocated a dual rating system. One rating for the hardest technical/physical moves of the route and one for the sustained nature. A one move wonder might be .12a E1 while a massive enduro pump fest could be .11c E12.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 27, 2008 - 01:09pm PT
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No. It's the hardest move. The pump factor varies a lot with different climbers.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 27, 2008 - 01:14pm PT
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Sustained means something, of course.
A one move wonder 5.11 can't even compare to a sustained 5.9+.
Even a sustained 5.10 is a totally different animal from a 5.10 where you can basically move from one v0 problem to the next, with rests in between. ON the former, you have to fight to stay on the whole time, there are no real rests. on the latter, you can take all the time n the world between the harder moves, and rest up for them. TOTALLY different experience.
Once upon a time, in the south, people used the ++ symbol to indicate sustained.
I would love to see guide book authors make a note of the nature of a climb, even if it means using the terms , "One move Wonder" and "Sustained", right after the rating.
Maybe since we already have R and X, we could add S and OMW, haha.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Sep 27, 2008 - 01:34pm PT
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Don't they say Reeds Direct has no move harder than 5.8, but feels like 5.10. I guess they compromise with a 5.9 rating. ha
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Sep 27, 2008 - 01:41pm PT
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Here's what I do not like about numbers, after you kayak a Class 4 river a hundred times, it is no longer a 4.
To me at least.
So the numbers start to become meaningless after the first time up, no?
So you would no longer think of the numbers, you just remember the route?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 27, 2008 - 01:49pm PT
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Hold your breath for 10 seconds right now.
Good
Now hold it for 2 minutes
Harder eh.
Folks who discount the pump factor are on crack,,,ok wrong analogy but pump counts.
climbing is not bouldering but even some boulders have pump issues
Peace
Karl
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Sep 27, 2008 - 02:00pm PT
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I thought crack for decades has always considered
the pump factor into ratings?
Looks as though they are now changing some sustained
face climbs also?
Yes, Karl very true.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 27, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
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It should be all about the climb- you can do it or you can't do it. I get a bit exasperated when people ask me to rate an alpine climb. It's unfortunate that there is soooo much emphasis on the number attached to a climb.
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dolomite_said
Gym climber
) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) . . . Buffering
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Sep 27, 2008 - 02:34pm PT
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You should keep the scale as pure as possible , have a seperate rating for endurance if you must . On a single-move bouldering route the move deserves to be accurately rated , not deflated for a lack of pump perse .
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 27, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
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"On a single-move bouldering route the move deserves to be accurately rated , not deflated for a lack of pump perse ."
Nobody deflates the hardest move (although the first hard moves of a climb are often somewhat ignored if they are off the deck) It's just that doing two pullups is easy and doing one hundred pullups is hard.
being realistic, it's just a matter of what muscles we're talking about. It's not like we have a different rating for the size of the crimp, the flexibility required to make the move, the angle of the pull, and all that. It's a totality that makes the final rating but not less than the hardest move
Peace
Karl
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 27, 2008 - 03:01pm PT
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Oh fer god's sake, of course the pump factor counts. It is preposterous to assert that an overhanging route with, say thirty 5.9 moves is a 5.9 climb, and it isn't any more true of a slab route with 30 5.9 moves (though I could never get Kamps to agree on that, which may be one of the reasons Robbins once shrieked at Kamps that Kamps had no business grading his own routes). If this silly hardest-single-move-determines-the-grade was really true, then there is probably a 5.9 route out there that no one on earth is capable of doing.
The idea that you can't count the need for endurance as a factor in the grades because different climbers have different levels of endurance is absurd. Climbers also have different levels of strength and technique, and no one seems to be claiming that the need for these two qualities is irrelevant to the grade.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 27, 2008 - 03:11pm PT
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well Karl you said it right AND wrong.
People DO deflate the rating of the move right off the ground, I have no idea why, but they sure do it.
At Twall it's very common, cause part of the bottom of the wall is undercut, and so there can be a 5.8 with a 5.10 first move, but the climb is rated 5.8.
I guess it only matters if you are going by a book and can't look at a move right in front of you and figure out it's gonna be hard, LOL.
Wonder why people give more credit for moves that are higher up? you'd think that since those moves probably have more pro around em and less chance of decking, they'd get dissed more, instead of the hard move right at the bottom where you could deck and get hurt.
go figure.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Sep 27, 2008 - 03:21pm PT
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What's the hardest single move on Butterballs? Certainly not 5.11. If you stepped off a good largish hold, did a finger lock move with both hands, moved your feet up once, and then got to another good hold, how hard would that be? .10a? The route is not rated .10a is it?
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Sep 27, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
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Seems like a no brainer to me
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
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Sep 27, 2008 - 07:08pm PT
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Forget the pump factor, what about the chick-power factor.
You know, when you pull hard enough to herniate yourself 'cause there's a cute girl in the peanut gallery.
I personally believe it bumps a hormonal young man's capability at least a couple of grades.
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Double D
climber
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Sep 27, 2008 - 08:15pm PT
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Ditto on Butterballs Mark. That's why it's always surprised me that it didn't get climbed well before Hot Henry stuck his mitts on it. We've got a climb here in Kolab canyon with no moves harder than 5.10 yet due to its angle and sustained pump, it's 12.b. PUMP MATTERS!
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Sep 27, 2008 - 08:48pm PT
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What does it take to succeed. If making just a single crux move is success, then the move.
See "The World's Strongest Man". In that competition clearly endurance matters as well.
Of course, the difficulty of a move depends on the climber's physique. So you have to rate it by height, gender, ape index, and in some cases, vertical leap.
:-)
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Sep 27, 2008 - 10:01pm PT
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The pump factor depends on YOU. If you work out on a juggy roof all day, you will rate it differently than someone who works out on tiny vertical edges.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Sep 27, 2008 - 10:16pm PT
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they need those numbers at the gym.
but i saw no tape on goat rock today, full props going out to Adam for onsighting the overhang twice,
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