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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Patrick, I am surprised at your response. I anticipated that you would not believe that he writes his own speeches so I provided you with an easy way to verify this fact. You clearly did not bother to verify it or you would have seen many links to go to from well known nationally sindicated publications.
Instead you chose to belittle google as a legitimate search engine, and also the internet itself as a fact based resource.
Wikopedia is a user based referenced, not accepted by anyone
as a factual resource, so your stating that legitimate internet fact finding is the same as wiko fact finding does not make sense. You can choose to not believe, but to not accept offered verification you must admit, sorely limits the ability to know the truth about this, and anything else.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Props to Ed for raising this issue, and more generally for speaking up for science on ST. Sometimes, with the patience of a saint.
It looks like a McCain-Palin administration would be even more anti-science than Bush. And judging from their convention speeches, anti-education, anti-knowledge.
Meanwhile, out in the world (National Snow and Ice Data Center, September 4 update)
Following a record rate of ice loss through the month of August, Arctic sea ice extent already stands as the second-lowest on record, further reinforcing conclusions that the Arctic sea ice cover is in a long-term state of decline. With approximately two weeks left in the melt season, the possibility of setting a new record annual minimum in September remains open.
http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/index.html
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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You can google
"obama speeches write his own?" for verification.
Patrick, I am surprised at your response. I anticipated that you would not believe that he writes his own speeches so I provided you with an easy way to verify this fact.
Wait a minute, if you anticipated that I would not believe that he writes his own speeches, why are you then surprised by my response? It does not follow suit.
you chose to belittle google as a legitimate search engine, and also the internet itself as a fact based resource.
And what makes you think that I ‘belittle’ Google? And the internet as a “fact-based resource”? How old are you dude? Are you perhaps the internet generation? Just wondering.
There is so much disinformation, misinformation and outright lies on the internet, that one has to be very circumspect on what is out there.
but to not accept offered verification you must admit, sorely limits the ability to know the truth about this, and anything else.
What verification?
When I started out as a journalist in the 1970s the advice given to me by several editors was “substantiate, substantiate, substantiate - if in doubt, leave it out”.
That seems to have gone by the wayside in ‘modern’ journalism, but some of us still stick to it. Others just accept the internet’s veracity.
I work for an editor who is one of the best I have worked for, and that is saying a lot if you saw my CV.
Not only is he a brilliant writer and editor, far better than I am, but a top-notch publisher and businessman, and perhaps one of Ireland’s best financial journalists.
He works his tail off, researching and writing. With four kids and a solicitor wife, time is at a max for him, and he cranks out some damn good copy. But that is a monthly mag.
Given the time restraints that Obama must be up against as well as his job in the Senate, and accepting that much of what he writes he may have prepared over the years, I still question that he does it alone.
You may accept to believe that he is sole originator of his material, which is your prerogative, I don’t, which is my prerogative. I am neither gullible nor cynical.
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drgonzo
Trad climber
east bay, CA
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From Bob Park's "What's New" this week. Item #2:
"2. DEBATE: DID "SCIENCE" GET A MENTION IN ST. PAUL?
Last week we did a word search for "science" in Barack Obama’s acceptance
speech in Denver. We thought it unfortunate that Obama made only a single
reference to science. As you have surely noticed, WN is firmly non-
partisan, so we ran the same search on a transcript of McCain’s acceptance
speech last night in St. Paul. "Text not found" popped up. Could this
be? Our nation is roiled by controversies over evolution, nuclear power,
climate change, energy shortage, stem cells, Plan B, all of which must
turn to science for their resolution. Indeed, is there an issue the
nation faces that doesn’t turn on science? "Perhaps the search technology
failed," I thought, "try another word." I typed in "fight." There were
25 hits. Hmmm."
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Brian
climber
Cali
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I know I'm only 40, but have any of y'all actually seen a Presidential Debate? I'm mean I've been politically active and aware since I was a teenager, but I've never seen a Presidential Debate on any subject, science or otherwise.
I'm mean, every 4 years I've seen those simultaneous press conferences, moderated by cowards too spineless to actually challenge either candidate or call him or her on outright lies and contradictions, but debate, no.
The candidates are not even supposed to address each other directly during these farces.
I'd love to see a real presidential debate, that really focused on the issues, moderated by a strong nonpartisan news person willing to call BS when she hears it.
Alas, I guess I (and Ed, and others who would like to see real debate) will have to take what we can get, which is pretty sad.
Lots of politicians, not enough statesmen.
Brian
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Alright Patrick, I cannot do anything about the fact that you think that internet sourced information is unreliable for fact finding. I don't know how you personally find out the truth about anything, maybe you read newspapers.
I have encouraged you to do a search, and you have rejected that suggestion as not legitimate. So, this time I did the search for you.
Here it is: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1837368,00.html
All you have to do is click on the link and read an article produced for Time magazine that clearly details Obama's speech writing methodology. I picked Time magazine as a source because it is also available for the past 70 years as a non internet news source in America, now knowing how much you distrust the internet. If you now say that this source is not credible enough to meet your high standards, then I can continue to provide you with more sources.
I really don't understand why you would attack me personally by saying that I must be from some pre internet age,or how old I am, or I don't understand computers or whatever you mean. I never said any personal like that about you, I just offered you a way to verify your seeming question as to whether Obama writes his own speeches or not, how could that possibly have been so severe as for you take to take such offense to say such demeaning things about me? I was just trying to help anyone, not aimed at you because I don't know you at all, anyone who might want some proof.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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"There is so much disinformation, misinformation and outright lies on the internet, that one has to be very circumspect on what is out there."
Straight out!
And this site is a prime example.
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jbar
Mountain climber
Atl,GA
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"One adult American in five thinks the Sun revolves around the Earth"
I just don't believe that. If it's true I blame our schools. I bet you won't find anyone who doesn't know who MLK was.
Whats even scarier is the mass of people planning to vote that don't have a clue who their representative is or even care what the person they are voting for really plans to do once they are in office.
Bluering I have to argue with you on the point of the feds not f*#king up the military. I spent 13.5 years in the service and eventually quit because I couldn't do my job with my hands tied behind my back. Give the Fed responsibility for anything and they will f*#k it up. I'm in favor of more privitized schools. I think educators would earn more money that way and it would also allow the cream to rise to the top.
I appreciated this post. I'm not a member of either the right or the leftist party. I choose to hear all sides of a debate and make up my own mind. Similarly it pains me to see the attacks on Christians in this post. I'm a Christian and I don't attack others for their chosen beliefs. Before you begin to stereotype or slam another person for their beliefs be sure you know who the real haters are.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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How old are you dude? Are you perhaps the internet generation? Just wondering.
Norton calm down. I wasn't attacking you, just wondering about your age. If you consider that an attack, good luck in life.
Also, I am not saying that the internet is all lies etc. If I implied that, then I must have miscommunicated what I meant.
I have encouraged you to do a search, and you have rejected that suggestion as not legitimate.
How do you know what I did or didn't do? Oh, assumptions. As it was I didn't reject your suggestion. But thanks for the link to that one Time article, as I didn't see that on google first time around (but then I only did a cursory search).
These late-night sessions produced long, meandering texts that were then circulated to a close group of advisers, including Axelrod and Obama's speechwriter Jon Favreau—a 27-year-old wunderkind wordsmith.
Sounds to me has has a bit of help. Again, to reiterate, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I understand that the guy is smart, and as I wrote in my previous post, and accepting that much of what he writes he may have prepared over the years, that he is a hard-working writer (unlike me, I'm lazy), and that he is meticulous in his preparation.
Also, given that he alone writes all his speeches
I'm just saying that he doesn't do it alone, yet I get the impression that many Obama supporters think that he does it all by himself. Perhaps I read that wrong, but it would fit in with my notion that a number of Obama supporters view the guy as some sort of messiah (and I am not implying that you are one of them).
I can just hear them saying: "Oh look, he writes everything himself. Isn’t he brilliant."
Yeah, the "wunderkind wordsmith" is just there for the company.
BTW, Obama also defeated Lex Luthor, a little-know fact. But Superman got the credit. It figures. ;-)
There is nothing that this man can’t do.
The Cult of the Celebrity.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Patrick, you asked how old I am: I am 58.
You ask if I am perhaps the "internet generation"
Well, I was one of the very first America OnLine subscribers back in 1993 with my 9.9 baud Apple computer modem, been online
ever since then, personally and for the two retail stores I own in Santa Fe, business banking and accounting web use.
Can I ask why you asked me these questions, why important for you to know?
Just because I believe that Obama is a smart guy does not mean
anyone believes he defeated Lex, what a leap of logic.
Now you state he is a celebrity, ok if you say so, will you then
also say that little new star Sarah Palin is a celebrity, this week she is on the cover of "US" How about McCain, he is constantly in the media, on TV, and magazines. That would make him a celebrity also, right? So, what IS your point?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Riley, I don't listen to all of his speeches, as it is difficult here in Ireland to get them on the telly, and my old Mac doesn’t play/stream that well from the net.
Anyway, what’s with the notion? Is it like “I'd like to know where, you got the notion... to rock the boat, don't rock the boat baby.”
Oh yes, Sometimes a Great Notion (Ken Kesey, 1964).
Careful or the people who claimed that Gore invented the internet will be saying that Obama invented the word ‘notion’.
Notion, oops I mean Norton, ;-) I was just curious about your age because if you were of a younger generation, then I could see the reliance on the internet for info, but if you were of the older generation, pre-internet, then your source of info would have been newspapers, magazines, radio and television.
With the latter media, there was a better checks and balances between fact and falsehoods and innuendo. I’m not saying it was perfect by any means. Mass communications and journalism has always been subject (subjective?) to agendas, but a least there were editors who many time would insist that a story be substantiated.
It was just that much more a bit reliable. But just.
Nowadays, any person, such as Matt Drudge (who has been caught out too many times to make him reputable IMO), can go online with unsubstantiated information, and people will believe it, until proven otherwise.
That’s all. I wasn’t trying to make your age an issue nor hijack the thread.
And of course Palin and McCain are both celebrities.
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drgonzo
Trad climber
east bay, CA
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bluering bleats:"Anyway, the Fed always ruins sh#t under it's 'guidance'. The only exception here is the military."
Just another asinine generalization. And yeah, the military is a shining example of how to do things right--shows you've been paying real close attention. Not.
Ed works for the Feds. Does he seem like an incompetent slacker to you? Ever seen his work or the work of the other thousands of scientists at his lab? Federally directed no less...hmmm.
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drgonzo
Trad climber
east bay, CA
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"One adult American in five thinks the Sun revolves around the Earth"
I just don't believe that. If it's true I blame our schools.
Well you can believe whatever you want to but just going on gut feeling doesn't forge a very robust or convincing opinion.
And blame our schools? Blame the parents--that's who is responsible.
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jbar
Mountain climber
Atl,GA
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And citing a reference without a source is neither robust nor convincing either. I still don't believe the copernican thing. The individuals polled could not have been American born ppl with at least some college or technical school. Believe me, I do understand though. When my son was in HS he couldn't tell me who actually discovered America and was amazed to learn about the Spanish devastation of the Americas from the History Channel but he could tell you anything you wanted to know about MLK. Even things that weren't necessarily true. It is the school systems responsibility to provide factual and unbiased information to our children. That is what we pay them for. It is unreasonable to expect a teacher to come home with them to make sure homework is done and questions are answered. The parents must be involved. You are completely correct that the parents have the ultimate responsibility for their children's education. Another example of the need for more availability of privatized schools. Todays parents teach irresponsibility. What happens when the teacher teaches evolution or creationism or tells a child they aren't good enough to make the play or when little johnny gets bullied on the playground? Mommy calls because it's all unfair. A chorus teacher told me that never once did a parent call and ask her what their child needed to do to become better and to make the musical next year. They all wanted to complain and tell her she was crazy for not picking their kid. You would be shocked at the number I was given for parents that called about their child getting a bad grade IN COLLEGE! Disgusting. You are absolutely right. The finger belongs firmly pointed at the parents as well. Geez I haven't slept in 28 hrs. I gotta git.
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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The blame game in education goes round and round... I was a teacher of math and physics for HS for almost 30 years. I had mostly good students, mostly because of the level of the courses... you have to be a pretty good student to even get to Physics... but I noticed that presented with the same material in the same classroom at the same time many of the students did very well while some didn't... what was the difference? Well the difference is that the student is ultimately responsible for what they learn not the teacher or the parents... it is on the students!!! I had kids who spoke very little english and yet they managed to get great grades and display knowledge of the material... hell I could have just thrown a book at some of the kids and they would have learned everything on their own!! If people are not educated then it is on them, especially if they are now adults with the world literally at their finger tips. The easiest thing to do in the world is nothing, nothing at all. A good education is invaluable and is certainly not free... no one can learn for you.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 6, 2008 - 01:26pm PT
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in my time teaching I came to view my role more as a guide.
The students have a preconception of where they want to go, and they're in your class because you can guide them there. But there are many external factors that can cause you not to arrive....
...it the student wants to do more or less, it is really up to them, though I can try to motivate them, make what we're studying relevant to them, try to connect to them.
But it is really everyone working together, and the parents have a lot to do with it, especially with younger students.
What my parents gave to me was the idea that I could learn anything, it was really up to me to do it. That was powerful.
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jbar
Mountain climber
Atl,GA
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Good points both Ed and Elcap. Ed notes that it depends on the age of the child. The younger they are the more guidance they need. They need to learn how to learn, learn how to study, etc. Elcap is right to point out that the studen must have the desire to learn. Some students are also naturals. My Romanian friends daughter started school here when she was 6. She didn't speak a word of english. 6mos later Marcel was getting notes from the teacher that she was spending too much time talking in class. lol I don't think I'll post on here anymore but this would be an awesome discussion to have over a few beers. I think I could learn a lot from it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 6, 2008 - 02:42pm PT
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public understanding of science poll results are probably from the 2001 NSF survey
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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public understanding of science poll results are probably from the 2001 NSF survey
Ed, here's a link to the most recent results, the National Science Board's Science and Engineering Indicators report (2008). Chapter 7 discusses results from the 2006 General Social Survey. With NSF support, the GSS is repeated every two years or so, and includes a science attitudes & understanding module that's been fodder for a series of reports.
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind08/
The 2006 GSS also included a special polar science attitudes & understanding section, in connection with IPY. Some interesting patterns exist, that mirror the politicization of science often seen on ST.
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