Limits to Free Climbing in Yosemite

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 101 - 120 of total 130 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jan 2, 2018 - 09:38pm PT
It may be that size matters after all.
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
Jan 2, 2018 - 09:56pm PT
The Snowflake Zone
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jan 2, 2018 - 10:28pm PT
https://gripped.com/news/lonnie-kauks-second-ascent-magic-line-5-14b-yosemite/ (January 2017)

Regarding grade extrapolation - grades are inherently subjective and ordinal rather than cardinal, so I would not expect them to scale in a predictable way.
Grade progressions happen every once in awhile when a dominant climber or two declare that the hardest climb is a lot harder than prior climbs and needs a new upper grade.
Also, there are so few climbs at the higher grades that we don't have any "law of large numbers" (like we would get on an average), so that adds to the variance as well.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 3, 2018 - 05:50am PT
The proverbial brick wall of physics in biology illustrated in a more objectively evaluated pursuit...

Men's running mile time record progression...
Men's running mile time record progression...
Credit: healyje

and ...

Limits of endurance as marathon stars run out of time
WBraun

climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 06:29am PT
There are no limits to the living entity except ignorance of its own conscious self.

Want to run faster just become a Cheetah in your next life.

Then you can run faster, and waste your time going nowhere again around the wheel ......
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
Jan 3, 2018 - 10:38am PT
Regarding grade extrapolation - grades are inherently subjective and ordinal rather than cardinal, so I would not expect them to scale in a predictable way.

Absolutely right, ser.

Climbing is ultimately the ultimate subjective sport. Ratings are just used to burn off ur bros etc or at most provide a loose guide...

If Beth Rodden has to edge that nub she has to support maybe 100# on it, to do the same route I have to support 200#....wimins cheat!

:P
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jan 3, 2018 - 04:40pm PT
In a popular bouldering area it might make more sense to "grade" each problem by simply counting the number of climbers who are successful on it.
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jan 3, 2018 - 04:43pm PT
Maybe someday "robo-climber" will be built. A human figure with hands and feet, but with greater lock off and pull up strength than a human. Then he can be programmed with algorithms to measure grades.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Jan 3, 2018 - 04:57pm PT
We can each of us get some idea of how hard a climb is by trying to do it.

Trying to compare difficulty across climbers, I like John Gill's suggestion. Given enough climbers you just count the number of successes. For the truly hard climbs it will likely be reported when someone succeeds.

For lesser stuff the grapevine can work as long as there are enough climbers in the arena. After you get enough info then you can debate why some succeed and others don't. Or you can go ahead and just debate.
Pete_N

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Jan 7, 2018 - 09:56pm PT
<In a popular bouldering area it might make more sense to "grade" each problem by simply counting the number of climbers who are successful on it.>

I like John's suggestion; it seems the best way yet to quantify the difficulty semi-objectively (emphasis on 'semi-').

In a similar vein, one might be able to compare the number of routes at each grade in successive guidebooks for an established area to model the progression of 'hard' climbing. I don't have the library of old guidebooks necessary, but I bet some of you do! What's the frequency distribution of 5.7-5.hardest in every Yosemite guide? Presumably, the median grade is going to shift right over the years, but rate at which it does so may have some predictive value.

It may be more interesting to compare grade frequency distributions among multiple climbing venues; this is probably more of a function of geomorphology though than local climbing ability.

I know there are a host of problems with the approach, but it's fun to consider.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2018 - 10:46pm PT
I don't have the library of old guidebooks necessary, but I bet some of you do!

here you go:
http://www.edhartouni.net/uploads/5/7/0/9/57096631/yosemitevalleyclimbs.xls
have at it!
Bruce Morris

Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
Jan 7, 2018 - 10:50pm PT
Hasn't John Gill's original B1, B2, B3 bouldering grading system got to do with number of repeats, at least as far as B3 is concerned? B3 would be on ascent with no repeats? I seem to remember when B1s were rated as approximately V4, which would be 5.12a YDS (if you want to compare bouldering with free-climbing). Bet John could be a lot more precise.
Pete_N

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Jan 8, 2018 - 02:49am PT
have at it!

Yikes. Be careful what you ask for... I'll see what I can do. Thanks Ed. I think.
Digits

Trad climber
Ca
Jan 8, 2018 - 06:10pm PT
There’s a short 11a top rope route that never fails to make my day. The moves matter most and I could care less what the grade is....
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Nov 8, 2018 - 09:31am PT
https://www.8a.nu/forum/news/meltdown-8c+-trad-by-carlo-traversi
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Nov 8, 2018 - 10:04am PT
As Ondra said - it's easy to find a hard climb, harder to find one you can climb.

Yosemite could be simplified by saying it's either an easy crack or a polished face. The crux of all the modern big wall free climbs is basically linking crack systems across featureless faces.

There's a video of Rodden working Meltdown. It looked totally miserable. Compare that to the many videos of - say - Realization - or any of its neighbors.

So you're among the best, where are you going to spend your time? For hard sport - probably not Yosemite. Nobody wants to crimp dimes all day long.

Also - trad is ground up, on sight, or at least close to it. Meltdown isn't a trad route - it's a sport route protected by trad gear.
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Nov 8, 2018 - 10:44am PT
Just a thought on the more limited topic of the feasibility of climbing grades. There are those who despair of this given all the variation in types of climbing...slabs , face, crack and sizes of climbers and their extremities. Some just find it hopelessly subjective.

I have always taken the opposite view, that given all the variables, it is remarkable the degree of consensus in our grading system. For data on this, visit Mountain Project. For any route there is a section 'opinions' where people are invited to give their own rating. It is remarkable how little variation there is.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Nov 8, 2018 - 11:17am PT
Speaking of the chart of running records,
the world record for the mile and 1500m has not improved in 20 years.

Morocco’s Hicham El Guerrouj has held the world record for the mile of 3:43.13 since July 7, 1999
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvCsj7eJKKA

Hicham El Guerrouj 1500m Rome 14 July 1998 03:26.00


Sports with absolute measurements don't have the problems of relative and subjective ratings.

Even if there were a theoretical absolute upper limit to climbing, as that value is approached, the scale can still be divided into an infinite number of difficulty ratings.
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Nov 8, 2018 - 11:18am PT
If only Worrall were around to see his demographic catching up to the free climbing level of young ladies, he’d be so proud.

First Tommy on The Nose, now this!
hailman

Trad climber
Ventura, CA
Nov 8, 2018 - 01:32pm PT
Unlike, say, a running race where it is physically impossible to run a distance in zero seconds,

the climbing scale is relative rather than absolute. Then the grades could keep going higher and higher, but the difficulty difference between higher grades would get smaller and smaller.

this is just like a logarithmic scale:
Credit: hailman
Messages 101 - 120 of total 130 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta