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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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bvb, sorry, sometimes I use jive words to lighten the situation when it gets heavy or sometimes just to be silly. I respect what you have to say.
Also, sometimes we think we are hearing what someone is saying, but we really aren't hearing it. My professor sister says it's all about semantics ...words can mean different things to people when they hear them.
SO, I have a feeling I am seeing your words but not understanding what you are saying. My fault not yours. So...bvb, could you post me tomorrow...I only ask cause I am pro
more brain dead than you right now, and we could continue discussion tomorrow. Would really like to now, but it's late and I watched the grandbabies in the hot sun, pool all day and this gal be tired. That's ti-red as in sunburned! Peace and much Joy to you tonight, bvb my friend.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Karl B, I guess right now I am seriously blessed.
Even though my best friend and husband died last year and I have lots of issues with material things and business related issues I am ok with my fellow human beings, family, friends, people at work, people I play with and hang with....Wow! I need to count my blessings.
This is such an inspired thread that has shown light into numerous windows of the soul .... Muy Gracias!
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L
climber
Soy latte center of the Known Universe
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14 Hail Marys
36 Buddhist prostrations
I'm wearing a horsehair shirt
I'm foregoing the scourge because it's swimsuit season
I'm realizing that Jeff might occasionally write things that in calmer moments, he wouldn't
Aaaahhhhh...feel much better now.
I've forgiven Fattrad for the disrespect he showed Rachel Corrie's memory.
I actually do feel better. :-)
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Scrunch
Trad climber
Provo, Ut
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I've been struggling with some ideas lately, particularly in regard to sensualism and the way it juxtaposes with a detachment ideology. Specifically how one would balance the detachment necessary to achieve freedom from desire in a Buddhist context while remaining able to draw succor from an environment that is by nature experiential. How does one avoid feeling miserable without simply not feeling?
the Karmic cleansing you proscribe fits nicely into the proof set. Profound, to say the least. Now i can move on to other thought experiments.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Hey Scrunch,
If you believe that you need some physical sensation in order to experience joy/love/peace, then you are attached to that physical sensation and you are not free. To be free one must realize that joy/love/peace come from within and are a natural part of Being. Don't seek Peace/Love/Joy through things, seek them through the realization that you are One with your source.
Seek Ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and ALL these things shall be added unto you.
Feeling like you need something in order to feel joy/love/peace means you believe that you are lacking in Joy/Love/Peace. The minute you believe you are lacking in any of these things, the world will give you the experience of lack because the world is a mirror of your beliefs.
Remember here that your deepest beliefs are stored in your subconscious. Before you can easily experience real lasting Joy/Peace/Love, you must clear your conscious and subconscious of all untruth.
So realize that you are Love/Joy/Peace and then ask yourself what God would do while Being God in Love/Joy/Peace. This is what it means to seek first the kingdom of God. It means you realize your source. It means you realize your oneness with that source and it means you realize that all material things flow from that source.
Seeking Peace/Love/Joy through an experience means you are confused about the source of Peace/Love/Joy. An experience does not create Joy/Love/Peace, God does because God is these things. So seek God and all these things will be added unto you.
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drgonzo
Trad climber
east bay, CA
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I heard the Dali Lama touch on this subject in a talk he was giving some years back. He made the point (I'm paraphrasing) that you can forgive the rattlesnake that just bit you but you should never forget that it is still a rattlesnake.
Thanks for the post Baba.
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L
climber
Soy latte center of the Known Universe
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Hey Scrunch,
First and foremost--like anything of value, learning to remain emotionally balanced in situations takes time and practice. When you first started rock climbing, you weren't flashing 5.14s were you? Of course not. None of us were. The ideal of the Buddhist way of life--the Middle Way--culminates in what you learn from your experiences...not in staying emotionally separate from your experiences.
There also seems to be some confusion around "nonattachment" in your post. What you describe is considered a near enemy of nonattachment--it has many of the same external characteristics, but totally misses the heart of the matter. Detachment is cutting yourself off from your feelings. Nonattachment is allowing all of your feelings to arise, flow through you and feeling them, and then letting them go, so that you return to a state of inner peace (equinimity).
You can feel hatred. You can feel anger. You can feel all of those things that we humans have felt for eons, you just don't hold on to those feelings and make yourself miserable with grudges, prejudices, and other forms of attachments. I've been working on this for a while now...I'm still feeling all those feelings, but I'm getting better about letting them go more quickly without all the repercussions of extended attachment to them.
From perfecting nonattachment, you gradually move to the place where people like the Dali Lama (and other great spiritual leaders in history) are: You recognize this world for what it is and you no longer feel the need to hate, or indulge in anger and animosity. These emotions are no longer a part of your repetoire because you know the worthlessness of indulging them. Alluding to the previous post, you recognize the rattlesnake and are careful of it, but you don't hate the rattlesnake for being a rattlesnake.
It's a mental and emotional training that takes a lifetime, but if you work at it, you do experience some amazing and rewarding results. Just like with climbing.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Janet, sounds you may have been bitten or know someone that has. It's an interesting comparison, the snake thing. But people are people and reptiles are reptiles...tho sometimes, I admit, hard to tell the difference.
How about, forgive one time and get the heck away to avoid further bites? Smiles, Lynne
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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"The Rattlesnake loves forgiveness. It'll write articles about it and preach volumes to victims and non-victims alike. It loves to be forgiven...makes it easier to bite you again and again. You don''t forgive a Rattlesnake, you stay the h-ll away from it. "
Just because one forgives does not mean one then closes ones mind. A perfect example is a friend of mine who is always late. I forgive him for being late, then I plan around him. If I can't afford to be late, then I don't plan to attend with him. This doesn't mean I don't invite him, it means I make certain his lateness does not harm me.
If I harbored resentment towards him, then I would miss out on all the wonderful things he brings to life, he is a fabulous musician, plus that resentment would fester within me causing me harm. Just think about what science has shown about the about the health affects of unrelieved stress. When you harbor anger or fear or hatred then you can do serious damage to your physical health.
So one aspect of forgiveness is the releasing of judgement which releases the buildup of stress factors.
None of this means I blindly ignore my friends behavior, I just don't let it stress me. That is one of the benefits of forgiveness. I don't pretend rattlesnakes don't bite, but I also don't go around hating them. I understand that they are what they are, and then I plan accordingly.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I'm Irish and we practice a deviant subspecies of forgiveness and one which usually only happens after the offending party is dead.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Nice thread Karl, Thanks.
Why do we like to punish people instead of forgiving them?
When things go wrong, we typically pay a price of some sort. When we make bad decisions, bad things can happen. So maybe it is natural to feel that if we amplify the bad consequences, increase the costs of a decision, then we can more easily or more quickly change those decisions. If we punish ourselves or someone else for a bad action isn't that our attempt to change that action?
When things go wrong, how many of us feel an automatic right to be angry and resentful. Don't we have a duty to be angry when we or someone else screws up? Don't we have a duty to make things better? Is not anger the best way to fix things or correct bad actions? People won't change without being punished, will they?
If some kids are selling crack cocaine, won't throwing them in prison teach them that they should not do that and that instead they should be upstanding citizens? If I fail on a climb, shouldn't my friends get angry at me and beat me in order to motivate me to climb harder?
I have come to the conclusion that anger is really good for breaking things and killing things and for keeping others away. It is a good way to create space around oneself. I don't see it having any usefulness in teaching others or myself in how to do things better.
If we don't get angry, what do we do instead? Forgiveness?
I try to stay aware of what I think is good action. I try to keep thinking about the path, rather than the obstacles, about the goal rather than the failures.
When I fall off a climb, I don't want to be yelled at, and punished. I want help in how to do better. I don't think it is any different in any of my other screw ups.
The beginner ladies at the dance studio apologize to me all the time when they miss a step or two, "I'm sorry that was my fault." I usually tell them that the goal is to learn to move together as a team and that means me adapting to them as much as them adapting to me. It has mostly to do with learning to understand each others timing. If I don't understand the timing, then there is the tendency to try to force a movement or get angry at the other. I tell people that dance is like pushing on a swing. There is a moment in each swing when we can push and have an effect. If we can't see that timing, we can beat on the swing with a baseball bat, blow it up, curse at it or whatever, but nothing much happens.
At some point in my marriage it dawned on me that no matter how upset I might be with my wife or how much I might think she is failing me or deserving of wrath, it is not an excuse for me to treat her badly. It is my job to stay constructive, to care and be helpful as best I can. She seems to forgive most of my faults as well, so we keep going along.
Paul
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Paul and Moosie, Really special posts! I keep learning all the time. Life is good when the windows are open.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
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I'd like to thank folks for sharing their ideas and stories here. If anyone has more they'd like to share or if you have an experience in the future, it would be great if you could tack on some.
I can think of no better way of unburdening yourself than letting go of the negativity that we hold within us. There really is some magic in it, How we judge others is automatically how are judged (or judge ourselves) It seems like folks hold others to higher standard and cut themselves slack, but, deep within, that's not the case.
peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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WTF? Locker, you bailed on Lynne?
Totally unforgivable. Unless you really were busy, but still, do you wanna climb with cool chix or not?
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Thanks Karl....If I was in a more accepting and open position for your insight 18 months ago, I could have saved thousands of dollars in counseling and medication, and resolved some issues easier. Now it's time for me to Forgive and move forward with my life, Thank you for your perspective.
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Anastasia
climber
Not there
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I for one find it easy to forgive because... Well, everyone messes up. Everyone here has hurt someone else. That is life. To be bitter about it is to be also bitter with oneself for being human. That condition of self hate, denial, etc. is not what I want to live with. You don't learn to be better if you act that way...
Plus... Since everyone messes up, there are always reasons to be bitter and angry... I don't want to be feeling that all the time. Too much work and it creates the loss of great friendships.
Especially since I think most relationships we have are good enough to be worth overlooking/forgiving the occasional flaws.
People who don't forgive end up living lonely lives since the human condition of not being perfect is unacceptable to them. They end up pushing everyone out.
Instead I think life is much happier focusing on being a better person towards others and seeking people that are trying to be better for me. I like people who can deal with each others flaws and see the overall value despite one's idiocies.
Plus there is no need to be angry for what is done, no need to be bitter.
Forgiveness is about having a good life.
AF
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Amen, Anastasia, agree 100%. Your friend, Lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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So, Mr. Locker, can't take a joke ? After all you and the JT Posse dish out....hehehe...
Hey, if I am going to be climbing with said posse I sure better be able to dish it....eh? You did say we were going to have FUN right?
OK, so in the public forum I apologize to Mr. Locker. He did offer to take me climbing, although he has other plans this week next week will be fine....Lynne
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I was just messin' with you Locker for the most part. Where you going climbing? Coming up to the Leap again?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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I'm bumping my own thread because I mentioned it in the Agnostic thread.
Times are changing and rough seas may lay ahead. Clearing up old wounds and hatreds are one of the best preparations and contributions you can make to others, yourself, and the world, cause it's all connected.
PEace
Karl
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