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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 30, 2008 - 05:18pm PT
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Lately I've let myself indulge in another round of political postings. It's questionable if those arguments change anybody's mind, but it seems important to lay the issues out sometimes. Unfortunately, it's also divisive.
Since my last trip to India, I felt inspired to share more positive insight that's not polarized by political persuasion. Here's something I wrote on Forgiveness. It's a subject that has served me well to make me a happier, more peaceful person.
Peace
Karl
++++++++++
Forgiveness
Many of us feel that when we forgive somebody, we’re doing them a favor. Perhaps they’ve changed, or apologized, or maybe we feel that we made them suffer enough.
The reality is, that the main beneficiary of forgiveness is the forgiver.
Every time we harbor an ill will, hateful feeling, or persistent negativity towards someone, we pack it away in a dark place within ourselves. This is a place of pain.
Many times we try not to think of this dark place where our wounds and angers live. That is called denial. Denial creates an obstacle to the honesty that we require to know ourselves. Denial can only exist by our maintenance of willful ignorance of reality.
Other times, we remember the wrongs done to us. We chew on the ill feelings about those who hurt us. We relive those negative emotions over and over, suffering the pains of the past once again. Suffering the pain of the past without resolving it needlessly multiplies our suffering in life.
The process of forgiveness liberates us in many ways.
First, facing and accepting the pain that we have endured in life empowers us to let go of it; to be free from the weight of our accumulated suffering. Witnessing the negative charge within us, without holding on or spinning it into a new drama, allows it to pass from us. Bravely facing our pains and judgments breaks the habit of denial.
Second, it is our imaginary idea of ourselves, the ego, which jealously and selfishly catalogs the crimes committed against us. We see the faults of others, and their transgressions, and gloss over our own.
By stepping back, we can witness the clinging and justifications of our mind. The ego’s brutal grasp on us weakens every time we release our pain and negativity.
The judgments we hold against others creates the framework for our judgments against ourselves. Taking the leap to forgive others releases negativity within us, and automatically begins to heal the grudge that we have with ourselves.
Change yourself and everything changes around you. Don’t take my word for it. It will be obvious when you do it.
By now, many people have been thinking of important objections to this whole idea of forgiveness. After all, many of us have suffered very real and painful abuse and nobody wants to line up for more. Let’s look at the devil in the details.
Does forgiveness mean we have to enter into relationship again with those we have forgiven?
No, forgiveness is an inner state of not holding on to negativity. If expressing that forgiveness will subject you to further abuse, don’t disclose it. Forgiving the violent ex-husband doesn’t excuse his actions, nor does it mean you have to take him back. It just means that you aren’t holding negativity within yourself anymore that ties you to those past pains and wounds.
We don’t have to resume sending money to the wayward daughter so she can finance her alcoholism. We don’t have to dismiss charges against the violent criminal so he can go find another victim. We can tackle muggers, speak out against injustice, and protect the weak and exploited.
How we deal with the various and complicated situations of life that evolve out of our decision to break free from our negativity can be inspired from our heart, with due consideration for all the factors involved.
Once we take out our emotional garbage, our feelings will give rise to intuition. Our minds will be free to take a less-biased view of the state of affairs.
There is often a middle ground in many situations. It’s often possible to have an amicable friendship and supportive custody relationships with an ex-spouse without re-marrying them. It’s often possible to work with difficult people without internalizing negativity about them but without accepting degrading treatment at the same time.
Miraculously, we often find that once the hatred is out of our own hearts, others can no longer sustain the negativity they have for us either. People who we assumed were rotten to the core are suddenly capable of humanity.
If it feels safe to express your forgiveness to the one you had begrudged, it can often be a liberating experience for both of you. Use your intuition and courage. Even if they don’t deserve it, sometimes especially if they don’t deserve it, it can start a chain reaction of transformation and grace that cascades into the world we live in.
When you see the potential for Love and kindness within another person, it summons the best in them to the surface.
Think about it. How many people who accept you without onerous conditions have made it to your enemies list?
If there are people who resist and hate those who unconditionally love them; that’s only because they are desperately clinging to their dark denial of themselves. They resent anyone who threatens to shine a light into their cherished oblivion.
Resistance to our experience is 90% of our suffering. The actual pain is just a small, bearable experience in the moment if we don’t hang on.
You may evolve your own process of discovering where your negativity lies and forgiving your friends and enemies alike. Here’s one way to get started with it:
For some, it’s painfully obvious whom they haven’t forgiven. If there is any doubt, still your mind and “intend” to discover which pains you are holding on to. Know your inner landscape and where the weeds are.
In a state of concentration and mental quietude, feel the emotions and reactions that come up when you examine the person and situation that needs forgiveness. Ask yourself if you are ready to let go of it. Just “Be” with it, for as long as it takes for it to lose its negative charge. Decide to let it go.
Don’t refer back to the ego and justify your anger or multiply your reasons for being upset. Watch it and let it be. Realize that humans are often weak, ignorant, and self-obsessed. It’s natural that we hurt each other, consciously and unconsciously, in countless relationships. We all have faults in the actions of our personality. Live and let live.
Recognize that the offending party need not always be a bad person. Free them to be better by releasing your hold on a negative concept of them. In doing so, you release your hold on a negative concept of yourself.
Repeat this process until the negative charge in your mind and heart regarding the person is discharged.
In the course of our lives and in nearly every human relationship, we experience and inflict grief and hurt, intentionally and unintentionally, in communication and miscommunication.
I’m sure I’ve upset many people over the years and I beg their forgiveness. I freely forgive all those who have hurt me.
The way to be free from the cycle of negativity is through forgiveness. Give it a try if holding on to your bad feelings isn’t serving you.
Peace
Karl
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 30, 2008 - 05:25pm PT
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I forgive Woody.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 30, 2008 - 05:47pm PT
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So any chance you've been able to extend this to how you feel about GW?
Nice post, BTW.
Ed
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
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Actually, I'd be able to sit down and have a happy cup of Tea with Bush Daddy with love in my heart.
I still think he should stand trial for war crimes, but it doesn't mean I don't have compassion for the guy. What we have as government and society is a reflection of ALL Of us in total.
The way to a better world is through all All being more forgiving, understanding humans, then we don't get Bush or we get a better Bush. That's the magic way the world takes shape
peace
karl
Edit: but if you run over my Ibook, I'll skin you alive!
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 30, 2008 - 05:57pm PT
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I think we may be straining Karl's forgiveness.
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Mei
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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Jun 30, 2008 - 06:09pm PT
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"Forgiveness" has been a subject lingering on my mind today, so I found myself unroutinely clicking on this OT thread and subsequently clicking on the Reply button. The article above by Karl is insightful. Following is just an excerpt from this weekend's mountain biking trip report. As the forgiven, I experienced a transformation by the power of forgiveness albeit through the littlest things in life.
+++++++++++++++
So, let's see what I did this weekend: forgot my riding shorts and had to buy an expensive pair that don't really fit, lost my expensive sunglasses, and lost my precious wedding ring. Depite all these supid mistakes I made, all Mud (my husband) said was, with a smile, "You are gonna get some spanking tonight." Of course he would never do that; he was only saying that to make me laugh -- he was trying to make me feel better! I knew if our roles had been switched, I would have gotten disappointed and angry and would have gone off scolding him "how could you..." and "I told you not to..." I had done that before -- even though I knew my critisisms would not help the matter at all, I would do that just hoping to make the mistake sound so painful that hopefully it would not be repeated again. Of course, that's not how things work, and it only makes the person already feeling guilty of wrong-doing feel even worse and leaves both of us angry. It strikes me hard this time how differently Mud and I handle things, and this time with me being the wrong-doer, I much preferred his composure, acceptance, and forgiveness even though I was beating myself up inside. I promised myself on the spot that I would learn from my dear husband and be understanding and forgiving next time he makes a mistake. This awakening experience made me feel good -- It will help me be a better person. Suddenly, the weekend did not look so bad any more. As a matter of fact, it was downright ... good!
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Then, it got even better. On the long drive home, it suddenly dawned on me that I took the ring off and hung it on my harness when I was in the climbing gym on Thursday morning. I completely forgot about it as well as the rare gym session. So I didn't loose my ring after all!!! I laughed and chuckled when Mud shook his head next to me again with a smile on his face. Oh, what a great weekend!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jun 30, 2008 - 06:30pm PT
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Karl B., so very well written and so true. My life experience has proven out your theory as so eloquently set forth.
Two people I had a falling out with during my adult lifetime became my best friends...and before my hub. died we forgave the ones that misdiagnosed or missed his physical problem. I can live freely because of this.
Thanks for being brave enough to post this. I think it took guts. Many would not expose their feelings so forthrightly. Lynne
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jun 30, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
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Okay, I forgive all those who took a position in opposition to my "truth". On the other hand, sleep with one eye open Ouch.
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Jun 30, 2008 - 07:44pm PT
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Beautiful post, Karl. Thanks for the reminder.
This subject comes up in my life to various degrees on a regular basis, and I can--finally--see my incremental progress in letting go of the negative feelings much more quickly now. (Nowhere close to perfect, of course, but there is progress.)
From an adolescence filled with physical and emotional abuse, I'd acquired a remarkably defensive, reactionary set of responses to my environment which was causing me much more pain than anyone else. Being able to forgive the people who hurt me was the greatest gift I've ever received--and I received it from myself.
Being able to forgive certainly doesn't mean you accept abuse, or injustice, or acts of hatred, bigotry and deceit--forgiveness doesn't make you a doormat. Just the opposite, in fact. And this is where so many people seem to get confused about forgiveness.
If you're not a slave to your emotional reactions, your ability to reason in confrontational situations is much, much greater. And it's easier to empathize with the person whose actions are hurting you or those you love. To empathazie with someone doesn't mean you agree with them--but you may understand their motives better. And understanding motives is where you have to start if you want resolution.
Like Karl, I don't hate George Bush for what he and his handlers have done to this country--I feel immense sympathy for him. What an awful time he must have trying to sleep at night...and it shows in every photo I see of him these days. I geniunely feel sorry for this man who's dropped his moral compass into an abyss of fear-based behavior.
But that won't stop me from speaking out against his destructive actions, his war on Iran, his war on the Environment, his policies of greed and hatred, dressed up in the smartly-pressed uniforms of Patriotism, Pre-emptive Stiking and Democracy.
Like Gandhi demonstrated, you don't have to hate your oppressors...you just have to stand against them and their actions. And forgive them--because you don't want to be saddled with that much hatred for the rest of your life, do you? I know I don't.
Jody Edit: Thank you for forgiving me for being a tree-hugging, homo-defending, animal-loving environmentalist, Jody. You just made my day! ;-)
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2008 - 08:14pm PT
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There is only one worrisome thing about people who forgive and have compassion. After they have compassed they plan on sending you off to hell to burn for eternity.
Let me see. Which do I prefer? Good honest hate? Or self-righteous superiority with vengeance? I'm thinking. I'm thinking.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2008 - 08:20pm PT
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I'dunno. What does it mean to you?
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2008 - 08:29pm PT
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Yeah. I guess I am just not as good.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2008 - 08:33pm PT
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Q.E.D.
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Jun 30, 2008 - 08:34pm PT
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John,
From your posts, I'm inclined to believe you don't actually prefer hatred. In fact, you go to great lengths to find balance and equal ground for all viewpoints involved.
I believe you might have been projecting something here; when I've forgiven anyone, it's a done deal. I may remember the experience (usually the lesson if not the pain), but since I don't believe in an actual place called "hell", I don't consign people to it. I figure we all carry our own heavens and hells around within us--no one needs a bus ticket to get there.
Are you alluding to the hypocrisy of certain organized religions?
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2008 - 08:46pm PT
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L:
Thanks for your note. I just distrust forgiveness when it is in fact a fraud done for an entirely personal agenda; most times unconsciously. The easiest time to perpetrate a horror when one feels righteous. The need to question has been carefully eliminated, beforehand.
When one feels something honestly without regard to one's self, then it should be, honestly, expressed; and leave it to the fates to determine the future.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jun 30, 2008 - 08:49pm PT
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Gee, jstan, that's harsh. lrl
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Jun 30, 2008 - 09:30pm PT
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Yes John, anything done with a fraudulent intent, be it conscious (for some form of personal gratification) or unconscious (as in our egos trying to maintain our self-delusion of a "loving person") is not the sort of behavior I'm advocating.
"Moral integrity"...this label (from Eric) and "hatred" seem antithesis to me.
The very source of hatred, as far as I can see, is the illusion that we are all different, separate and alien to each other. True hatred, when boiled down to its bones, is fear based on a lack of understanding. So if you're saying you truly would rather hate someone than attempt to forgive them, regardless of how inept that attempt is...then it seems to me you're wanting to sentence yourself to pergatory--no one else need do so.
Edit: Naw...I don't believe that about you for a minute. I think I understand what you meant...I'll let it go at that and simply thank you for being one of the better influences on the Taco.
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reddirt
climber
subarwu
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Jun 30, 2008 - 09:50pm PT
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just remember, "forgive & forget" does not apply to short-ropers
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Jun 30, 2008 - 10:19pm PT
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Jun 30, 2008 - 10:22pm PT
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May I be a guard for those who are protectorless,
A guide for those who journey on the road;
For those who wish to go across the water,
May I be a boat, a raft, a bridge.
May I be an isle for those who yearn for landfall,
And a lamp for those who long for light;
For those who need a resting place, a bed,
For all who need a servant, may I be a slave.
May I be the wishing jewel, the vase of plenty,
A word of power, and the supreme remedy.
May I be the trees of miracles,
And for every being, the abundant cow.
Like the great earth and the other elements,
Enduring as the sky itself endures,
For the boundless multitude of living beings,
May I be the ground and vessel of their life.
Thus, for every single thing that lives,
In number like the boundless reaches of the sky,
May I be their sustenance and nourishment
Until they pass beyond the bounds of suffering
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SammyLee2
Trad climber
Memphis, TN
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Jun 30, 2008 - 11:20pm PT
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Kinda harder to do when the person I need to forgive is ME. For some reason.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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L:
It kinda makes no difference what I think. What I was saying was I prefer a person express honest hatred for me rather than a fraudulent forgiveness based upon some personal agenda. Like by forgiving me, which they really don't do, they receive the freedom that comes with thinking I am less. When the US was in Korea we marginalized our adversaries by calling them "gooks". Why? Because we then did not have to answer questions before squeezing the trigger. I don't look for hatred. i just prefer it to fraud.
I think yourself and Karl are talking about a forgiveness that travels free. No strings. Great! I horned in because the word was starting to be used in a preprogrammed way that does not have meaning.
Jody:
No problem. Really.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2008 - 11:30pm PT
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I really appreciate folks who shared a personal story. Thanks
I appreciate Jstan's apprehension about forgiveness but the point of what I was writing concerns the power of forgiving. Being Forgiven is a great gift but getting the crap out of our own systems is much better, and then you don't have to question any motives or sincerity.
In the Gospels, Jesus had some revolutionary teachings about forgiveness. He took it to a different level than many religions and philosophies, but it's true that the way the religion is practiced these days, many feel obligated to express a superficial forgiveness that seems to have an underlying since of judgement instead of love.
Better forgive that too. There will always be lots of misguided people in the world and we'll always be, at least to some degree, one of them. So the solution the frees everybody is to be undivided and whole, to love and forgive and go on the best way you can from there.
And yes, the ultimate result of pure forgiveness is forgiving yourself, which everybody needs to do very badly but some don't realize it yet.
Peace
Karl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jun 30, 2008 - 11:40pm PT
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Sammylee2, I hear your heart. Forgiving yourself is so often way harder to do than forgiving someone else. It can be done. I heard a wise person once say "Forgiving is Forgetting in the face of remembering."
They said to throw the thing that needed to be forgiven to the bottom of a big lake and put a sign there saying no fishing!
Email me if you ever need an ear to listen. Lynne
(Course they also said to ask God to forgive you first.)
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jun 30, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
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I once(and only once, actually) had an utterly amazing experience by forgiving someone one time.
It came mixed in with my apologizing for my side of things, but what had happened was:
I was on a trip with a friend. Hawaii....He had won the trip on a radio contest, and since I had given him frequent flyer miles for vacations previously, he invited me to share this vacation.
We weren't really close friends and so we had never spent days together. Our quirks grated on each others nerves....and apparently mine grated so badly that my friend became nasty to me. More than once.
After a few caustic remarks I began lobbing back a few missiles on my own and, well - it didn't help matters. The air was full of tension and our attempts at politeness were obviously just that - attempts.
Finally, I realized that the trip was getting worse and would only continue downhill. I did some thinking and forgave my friend for being mean and petty.
Not out loud, to myself.
We happened to be driving down the road - that majestic coastline! - at the time. In a convertible, with the top down.
So, I forgave my friend. And then I spoke to him. I apologized for behaving badly to him. I said not a word about his behavior; I just cleaned up my side of things.
WHAT a FEELING!
I could not believe the lightness I felt. It was as if I were floating in the airstream along with that car. I literally felt high as a kite and free as a bird. There was NOTHING that was impossible, in that moment.
Incredible, really.
I've never had such an intense response to forgivenss/acceptance of my side/owning up and apologizing since. But then.....I am not really sure I have ever forgiven/apologized since then....
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SammyLee2
Trad climber
Memphis, TN
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Jun 30, 2008 - 11:51pm PT
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Thanks Lynne,
I'm working on it. Most of the stuff is BITD but it hangs tight in my head. I was a different person then but those people were trully hurt. And nothing I can do now will erase those harms.
Sometimes, I think that punishment is an answer, yet I often lack courage to accept that punishment. For some things, there is no statute of limitations ;-)
I've mangaged to do a few good things since but they are vague. My oldest crimes are crystal clear in my waking moments and dreams.
I do appreciate you and this forum, giving me a chance to at least let it come to the surface from time to time. But dangnation! This is a climber's forum. I'm going to RMNP in August! (denial, change of subject ;-)
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 30, 2008 - 11:56pm PT
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"The reality is, that the main beneficiary of forgiveness is the forgiver."
If that is true then doing it is a selfish act motivated by greed. I have never felt the desire to forgive for my own benefit. It has always been something that is given like a gift or something that is done to be humble and show acceptance that we are all simply human.
Dave
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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it's true. forgiveness is, ultimately, an inherently selfish act. welcome to the fearless and searching moral inventory.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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SammyLee2,
Glad to hear you're going to RMNP. Great things can be accomplished in the soul out in the country. No clanging bells to distract.
For many of us the hurt and pain we caused was BITD. It does need to be dealt with....if possible, for you and for them.
Hurts can't be erased, you can only offer from your heart, your sorrow for pain caused and ask for forgiveness. Of course I have no idea of circumstances. If this can even be done. But if you are able to do this go for it. You are not responsible for their response.
Finally, out in the beautiful creation you are going to .... listen....to the wind. God speaks in the wind if you truly desire to hear. Best, Lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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bvb- Yo are not serious, right? Lynnie
Happiegrrrl, thanks for sharing the great personal story. Looking forward to seeing you at the Lift. Just plain Lynne
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Dave,
I think one of the benefits of authentically forgiving someone is that you feel better, but truthfully--and think about this--if you say, "I'm forgiving so-n-so for being such an ass...now I'm going to feel better", you know in your heart of hearts that you've only gone through the motions of forgiving. And just like that pseudo-forgiving, you're going to have pseudo-good feelings.
We all fool ourselves all the time...but not really. Deep inside, you know when you're being real, and when you're being Memorex.
The experience Happi just spoke of is a fine example of authentically feeling that you've let go of the anger and judgment. You know the true feeling...and you know the imposter, too.
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Sam,
One of the clever little tricks our egos love to play on us is telling us we're just too bad for forgiveness. We were too rotten or too selfish or whatever. It's how the ego controls you.
Nevermind that you were young and ignorant of repercussions, or messed up, or in emotional crisis, or whatever the reasons were for what you may or may not have done. (Which is another great ploy by the ego: It was so much worse than you thought!!!) You just need to keep asking yourself what is the payoff for you to continue to beat youurself up like this.
Ask yourself this question 100 times a day, everytime that "unforgiveable" thing comes up. Why would you willingly incarcerate your spirit in the chains of unforgiveness?
I don't know what your answer will be, but many people carry that burden to keep from looking at the truth of a past situation. Because sometimes the truth is so much more painful than blaming ourselves for being insufficient or whatever...so we create this smokescreen. To truly free yourself of this feeling of pending doom, this Sword of Damocles, you need to discover the truth of why you think you're so unforgiveable.
It will probably not be what you think.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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The opposite of forgiving is holding resentments, which is a kind of soul death.
I don't think anyone ever achieves forgiveness. It's a kind of grace that happens once you've found your willingness to let things go. Every time we detach we move ahead, somehow.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2008 - 12:53am PT
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Dave wrote
""The reality is, that the main beneficiary of forgiveness is the forgiver."
If that is true then doing it is a selfish act motivated by greed. I have never felt the desire to forgive for my own benefit. It has always been something that is given like a gift or something that is done to be humble and show acceptance that we are all simply human.
Dave"
That doesn't necessarily follow. Are you saying that when you have forgiven as you say, that you didn't benefit as much as those whom you forgave?
And even things we do for our own greatest good aren't necessarily greed based.
And, ironically, when we free ourselves and become more loving and whole people, Society and the rest of the world benefits right along side us. Every bit of light makes the world brighter. There may be no better way to contribute to the world around us than to be an integrated, loving person at peace with themselves.
Peace
Karl
PS, I'm forgiving Sammy for going to RMNP (although I could have met him there perhaps)
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
riding bikes thru the night
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"Every time we detach we move ahead, somehow."
amen. you just can't carry all of that around
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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no lynne, not kidding. the type of forgiveness karl is refering to is all about achieving inner equilibrium, and really does not have much to do with making peace with others. how the forgiven reacts to your forgiveness is pretty much beside the point.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Karl - Another thought provoking post by Karl Baba.
Thank you for the boost, the guidance, and the seemingly endless flow of kindness.
My only hope is that I may one day embody some of these traits.
Thanks again
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
riding bikes thru the night
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BVB - why do the forgiven even need to know about it? some wouldn't even care. just cuz you've forgiven someone for something, doesn't mean you have to tell them.
it's like when people volunteer and then get pissy if they don't get acknolwedged for it. if you're being truly altruistic, why do you need for people to know?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Well, I agree with Mr. Long when he says, "I don't think anyone ever achieves forgiveness."
(achieve, to get or attain as the result of exertion - Merriam-Webster)
"It's a kind of grace that happens once you've found your willingness to let things go."
Grace is an interesting word...not much referred to or used in the vernacular nowadays. There are many connotations..but I think maybe mercy, pardon may be what Mr. Long suggests. Only guessing as I check Merrian-Webster.
An extremely interesting topic. One every human should be able to relate to in some context of their life on this planet.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2008 - 01:55am PT
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I brought it up because forgiveness is on the back burner for lots of people but it really can burden your life so it's worth taking a fresh look at.
We feel like we need to carry these grudges against our too-human parents, ex-lovers and an increasing list of wrong-doers, misunderstanders, and selfish short-sighted people but we really mainly hurt ourselves.
Then perhaps those parents die and an opportunity is at least partially lost forever.
The Sweetness of being free and unburdened is worth tasting. Take a bite and see if you want the whole meal. The older we get the bigger pile of crap we carry around with us until our feeling of age is just as much in psychological baggage as physical aches and pains.
and the mystery is, I know it but can't prove it, that the standard of forgiveness you apply to others is the standard of judgement that will be applied to you. You could call it basic psychology of judging yourself or listen to the sayings of Jesus when he says several things along the lines of "Judge not, lest you be judged"
Peace
Karl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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bvb, sorry, sometimes I use jive words to lighten the situation when it gets heavy or sometimes just to be silly. I respect what you have to say.
Also, sometimes we think we are hearing what someone is saying, but we really aren't hearing it. My professor sister says it's all about semantics ...words can mean different things to people when they hear them.
SO, I have a feeling I am seeing your words but not understanding what you are saying. My fault not yours. So...bvb, could you post me tomorrow...I only ask cause I am pro
more brain dead than you right now, and we could continue discussion tomorrow. Would really like to now, but it's late and I watched the grandbabies in the hot sun, pool all day and this gal be tired. That's ti-red as in sunburned! Peace and much Joy to you tonight, bvb my friend.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Karl B, I guess right now I am seriously blessed.
Even though my best friend and husband died last year and I have lots of issues with material things and business related issues I am ok with my fellow human beings, family, friends, people at work, people I play with and hang with....Wow! I need to count my blessings.
This is such an inspired thread that has shown light into numerous windows of the soul .... Muy Gracias!
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L
climber
Soy latte center of the Known Universe
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14 Hail Marys
36 Buddhist prostrations
I'm wearing a horsehair shirt
I'm foregoing the scourge because it's swimsuit season
I'm realizing that Jeff might occasionally write things that in calmer moments, he wouldn't
Aaaahhhhh...feel much better now.
I've forgiven Fattrad for the disrespect he showed Rachel Corrie's memory.
I actually do feel better. :-)
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Scrunch
Trad climber
Provo, Ut
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I've been struggling with some ideas lately, particularly in regard to sensualism and the way it juxtaposes with a detachment ideology. Specifically how one would balance the detachment necessary to achieve freedom from desire in a Buddhist context while remaining able to draw succor from an environment that is by nature experiential. How does one avoid feeling miserable without simply not feeling?
the Karmic cleansing you proscribe fits nicely into the proof set. Profound, to say the least. Now i can move on to other thought experiments.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Hey Scrunch,
If you believe that you need some physical sensation in order to experience joy/love/peace, then you are attached to that physical sensation and you are not free. To be free one must realize that joy/love/peace come from within and are a natural part of Being. Don't seek Peace/Love/Joy through things, seek them through the realization that you are One with your source.
Seek Ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and ALL these things shall be added unto you.
Feeling like you need something in order to feel joy/love/peace means you believe that you are lacking in Joy/Love/Peace. The minute you believe you are lacking in any of these things, the world will give you the experience of lack because the world is a mirror of your beliefs.
Remember here that your deepest beliefs are stored in your subconscious. Before you can easily experience real lasting Joy/Peace/Love, you must clear your conscious and subconscious of all untruth.
So realize that you are Love/Joy/Peace and then ask yourself what God would do while Being God in Love/Joy/Peace. This is what it means to seek first the kingdom of God. It means you realize your source. It means you realize your oneness with that source and it means you realize that all material things flow from that source.
Seeking Peace/Love/Joy through an experience means you are confused about the source of Peace/Love/Joy. An experience does not create Joy/Love/Peace, God does because God is these things. So seek God and all these things will be added unto you.
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drgonzo
Trad climber
east bay, CA
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I heard the Dali Lama touch on this subject in a talk he was giving some years back. He made the point (I'm paraphrasing) that you can forgive the rattlesnake that just bit you but you should never forget that it is still a rattlesnake.
Thanks for the post Baba.
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L
climber
Soy latte center of the Known Universe
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Hey Scrunch,
First and foremost--like anything of value, learning to remain emotionally balanced in situations takes time and practice. When you first started rock climbing, you weren't flashing 5.14s were you? Of course not. None of us were. The ideal of the Buddhist way of life--the Middle Way--culminates in what you learn from your experiences...not in staying emotionally separate from your experiences.
There also seems to be some confusion around "nonattachment" in your post. What you describe is considered a near enemy of nonattachment--it has many of the same external characteristics, but totally misses the heart of the matter. Detachment is cutting yourself off from your feelings. Nonattachment is allowing all of your feelings to arise, flow through you and feeling them, and then letting them go, so that you return to a state of inner peace (equinimity).
You can feel hatred. You can feel anger. You can feel all of those things that we humans have felt for eons, you just don't hold on to those feelings and make yourself miserable with grudges, prejudices, and other forms of attachments. I've been working on this for a while now...I'm still feeling all those feelings, but I'm getting better about letting them go more quickly without all the repercussions of extended attachment to them.
From perfecting nonattachment, you gradually move to the place where people like the Dali Lama (and other great spiritual leaders in history) are: You recognize this world for what it is and you no longer feel the need to hate, or indulge in anger and animosity. These emotions are no longer a part of your repetoire because you know the worthlessness of indulging them. Alluding to the previous post, you recognize the rattlesnake and are careful of it, but you don't hate the rattlesnake for being a rattlesnake.
It's a mental and emotional training that takes a lifetime, but if you work at it, you do experience some amazing and rewarding results. Just like with climbing.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Janet, sounds you may have been bitten or know someone that has. It's an interesting comparison, the snake thing. But people are people and reptiles are reptiles...tho sometimes, I admit, hard to tell the difference.
How about, forgive one time and get the heck away to avoid further bites? Smiles, Lynne
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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"The Rattlesnake loves forgiveness. It'll write articles about it and preach volumes to victims and non-victims alike. It loves to be forgiven...makes it easier to bite you again and again. You don''t forgive a Rattlesnake, you stay the h-ll away from it. "
Just because one forgives does not mean one then closes ones mind. A perfect example is a friend of mine who is always late. I forgive him for being late, then I plan around him. If I can't afford to be late, then I don't plan to attend with him. This doesn't mean I don't invite him, it means I make certain his lateness does not harm me.
If I harbored resentment towards him, then I would miss out on all the wonderful things he brings to life, he is a fabulous musician, plus that resentment would fester within me causing me harm. Just think about what science has shown about the about the health affects of unrelieved stress. When you harbor anger or fear or hatred then you can do serious damage to your physical health.
So one aspect of forgiveness is the releasing of judgement which releases the buildup of stress factors.
None of this means I blindly ignore my friends behavior, I just don't let it stress me. That is one of the benefits of forgiveness. I don't pretend rattlesnakes don't bite, but I also don't go around hating them. I understand that they are what they are, and then I plan accordingly.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I'm Irish and we practice a deviant subspecies of forgiveness and one which usually only happens after the offending party is dead.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Nice thread Karl, Thanks.
Why do we like to punish people instead of forgiving them?
When things go wrong, we typically pay a price of some sort. When we make bad decisions, bad things can happen. So maybe it is natural to feel that if we amplify the bad consequences, increase the costs of a decision, then we can more easily or more quickly change those decisions. If we punish ourselves or someone else for a bad action isn't that our attempt to change that action?
When things go wrong, how many of us feel an automatic right to be angry and resentful. Don't we have a duty to be angry when we or someone else screws up? Don't we have a duty to make things better? Is not anger the best way to fix things or correct bad actions? People won't change without being punished, will they?
If some kids are selling crack cocaine, won't throwing them in prison teach them that they should not do that and that instead they should be upstanding citizens? If I fail on a climb, shouldn't my friends get angry at me and beat me in order to motivate me to climb harder?
I have come to the conclusion that anger is really good for breaking things and killing things and for keeping others away. It is a good way to create space around oneself. I don't see it having any usefulness in teaching others or myself in how to do things better.
If we don't get angry, what do we do instead? Forgiveness?
I try to stay aware of what I think is good action. I try to keep thinking about the path, rather than the obstacles, about the goal rather than the failures.
When I fall off a climb, I don't want to be yelled at, and punished. I want help in how to do better. I don't think it is any different in any of my other screw ups.
The beginner ladies at the dance studio apologize to me all the time when they miss a step or two, "I'm sorry that was my fault." I usually tell them that the goal is to learn to move together as a team and that means me adapting to them as much as them adapting to me. It has mostly to do with learning to understand each others timing. If I don't understand the timing, then there is the tendency to try to force a movement or get angry at the other. I tell people that dance is like pushing on a swing. There is a moment in each swing when we can push and have an effect. If we can't see that timing, we can beat on the swing with a baseball bat, blow it up, curse at it or whatever, but nothing much happens.
At some point in my marriage it dawned on me that no matter how upset I might be with my wife or how much I might think she is failing me or deserving of wrath, it is not an excuse for me to treat her badly. It is my job to stay constructive, to care and be helpful as best I can. She seems to forgive most of my faults as well, so we keep going along.
Paul
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Paul and Moosie, Really special posts! I keep learning all the time. Life is good when the windows are open.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
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I'd like to thank folks for sharing their ideas and stories here. If anyone has more they'd like to share or if you have an experience in the future, it would be great if you could tack on some.
I can think of no better way of unburdening yourself than letting go of the negativity that we hold within us. There really is some magic in it, How we judge others is automatically how are judged (or judge ourselves) It seems like folks hold others to higher standard and cut themselves slack, but, deep within, that's not the case.
peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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WTF? Locker, you bailed on Lynne?
Totally unforgivable. Unless you really were busy, but still, do you wanna climb with cool chix or not?
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Thanks Karl....If I was in a more accepting and open position for your insight 18 months ago, I could have saved thousands of dollars in counseling and medication, and resolved some issues easier. Now it's time for me to Forgive and move forward with my life, Thank you for your perspective.
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Anastasia
climber
Not there
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I for one find it easy to forgive because... Well, everyone messes up. Everyone here has hurt someone else. That is life. To be bitter about it is to be also bitter with oneself for being human. That condition of self hate, denial, etc. is not what I want to live with. You don't learn to be better if you act that way...
Plus... Since everyone messes up, there are always reasons to be bitter and angry... I don't want to be feeling that all the time. Too much work and it creates the loss of great friendships.
Especially since I think most relationships we have are good enough to be worth overlooking/forgiving the occasional flaws.
People who don't forgive end up living lonely lives since the human condition of not being perfect is unacceptable to them. They end up pushing everyone out.
Instead I think life is much happier focusing on being a better person towards others and seeking people that are trying to be better for me. I like people who can deal with each others flaws and see the overall value despite one's idiocies.
Plus there is no need to be angry for what is done, no need to be bitter.
Forgiveness is about having a good life.
AF
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Amen, Anastasia, agree 100%. Your friend, Lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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So, Mr. Locker, can't take a joke ? After all you and the JT Posse dish out....hehehe...
Hey, if I am going to be climbing with said posse I sure better be able to dish it....eh? You did say we were going to have FUN right?
OK, so in the public forum I apologize to Mr. Locker. He did offer to take me climbing, although he has other plans this week next week will be fine....Lynne
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I was just messin' with you Locker for the most part. Where you going climbing? Coming up to the Leap again?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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I'm bumping my own thread because I mentioned it in the Agnostic thread.
Times are changing and rough seas may lay ahead. Clearing up old wounds and hatreds are one of the best preparations and contributions you can make to others, yourself, and the world, cause it's all connected.
PEace
Karl
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Karl, I'm thinking of heading to India this year. I want to clean up my own past karma. Any suggestions or advice. serious. Cheers.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Wonder, email me with what time of year you could go and I might have an idea or two
But basically, Nobody need to go anywhere in particular to clean up their lives and heart. You look within and let go and forgive. Perhaps go find people you are tweaked about and hang out with them as humans.
A magical way of visiting anywhere is simply not being too firm about your plans. Go to an interesting area, hang out, be open, and follow your nose. The right people will come along and one thing will lead to another.
The critical point is to have an "Intention." You might intend to learn something in particular about yourself, life, or Spirit, or you might intend to have adventure or anything. Strangely it works that if you clearly express an intention about what you are doing, Life comes around and serves it somehow.
PEace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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Hey Folks
I was revisiting this thread and so I'm giving it a old bump
Love to all
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
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Karl,
You missed all of the A-hole threads and hatred recently posted here on ST, it was great fun.
Namaste,
The evil one
I saw some of it. That why, not that the cabin fever is due to be over in a few weeks, we can do our forgiveness dance with each other and refresh our community more positively
Peace
karl
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 30, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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There are really only 4 modes of thinking:
Religious: "Everything is because god made it that way".
Scientific: "God is unnecessary to explain reality, reality is deduced from the material world"
Magical: "The reality is if it works it's real. Who cares if it isn't scientific or religious?"
Artistic: "What I create and bring forth is what is the root of the real"
Currently we are in the beginning stages of the threshold of entering a new magical age. Religion is going backward. Science is the dominant paradigm, but has overreached. It can only function in tightly controlled environments. It has replaced dualistic god\ devil with a dualistic Truth\untruth (based on materialism). Science thinks if we had a computer powerful enough to calculate all variables, we'd know everything. This is just another form of monotheism at its extreme limits (god as supercomputer).
Magic is the next step, and is that which distills reality from "whatever works" and uses multiple, even contradictory maps, irrespective of whether or not it can be reproduced in a laboratory under limited conditions. It is a shortcut, faster than science or religion (yet replaces neither). You say the earth isn't flat? Well it's flat enough for me! You say the earth isn't round (oblate spheroid)? Well it's round enough for me! (Magic) And so on...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mar 30, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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Binks, what kind of pop psyche is that?
define magical, otherwise, saying what works is real, is pragmatism, not magic. Magic is inexplicable, pragmatism is explicable it's just not reductionistic.
can you cite a source?
Magical: "The reality is if it works it's real. Who cares if it isn't scientific or religious?"
Artistic: "What I create and bring forth is what is the root of the real"
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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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Mar 30, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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True Forgiveness is acted upon infinitely...Not spoken.
Then it is forgotten...move on.
RIGHT FRIKKIN' ON, PERRY!
Big props for your insight.
Erik
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 30, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
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Give it a chance Pate, I dare you!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
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If you look within and observe your emotions, thoughts, and motives, you can see where your peace is disturbed.
Then look for how to resolve that disturbance. My experience is that forgiveness resolves great divisions within us. Acceptance is practically another word for forgiveness.
Absolutely, forgiving yourself is essential, but if it doesn't then include others, I wonder if it just becomes selfish justification.
How we feel in life is greatly dictated by our state of emotional clarity and health. Working on the pays dividends for ourselves and others.
Peace
Karl
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 30, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
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OK, fine. Forgiveness is just one part, the other part is Justice. If there is injustice, there can't be closure regardless of "forgiveness" or "acceptance". Energetically, wrongs you have suffered or have inflicted have to be fixed with the principles of cosmic justice or no amount of "letting go", "accepting" etc will work. This is the work of karma. You can forgive, but the act is incomplete until Justice is served. And you can't release anyone from justice either just because "you're a nice guy", even if the wrong was done to you and you'd just rather forget it. They have to pay up karmically in some way. You don't have to be the one to make them do it, nonetheless it will be done eventually thru karma. That is just how it works. Nobody has to forgive you either. You can just say "I'm willing to have cosmic justice served on this issue (yourself included) and turn the matter over to the lords of karma". They might tell you you have to do something in person to resolve the issue, but they might not too. Then the matter is over.
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 30, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
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Even God doesn’t have unconditional love. He throws people into hell. I personally don’t even think it’s an ideal. I think you have got to have a discriminating faculty and let bastards be bastards and let those that ought to be hit in the jaw get it. In fact, I have a list. If anybody has a working guillotine, I’d be glad to give them my list.
When I look
in the faces of my enemies
it makes me proud.
-Joseph Campbell
Just wanted to throw a little salt in and see what people really think.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 30, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
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Binks:
Even God doesn’t have unconditional love. He throws people into hell.
I didn't think we were talking religion so much as simply forgiveness?
I agree with the Chief. God doesn't throw people into Hell. God gives people freedom of choice and expression. If anyone is going to Hell it's of their own doing.
~~~~~~~
The Chief:
RELIGION is for those that don't want to go to hell.
SPIRITUALITY is for those that have been to hell and never want to return.
I like that ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some of my teachers have told me that in very ancient Hawaiian culture there was simply one law.
And... there was only one sentence for the convicted!
Let's say I stole from a neighbor and at village council I admit my transgression and ask the person I wronged for forgiveness. If the person wronged refuses to forgive then they become the societal problem and if they absolutely refuse to forgive then they would be sentenced. The sentence was not simply to be outcast forever, it was much more harsh than that. you were also stripped of your most precious belonging... your name. Not even your own mother would ever acknowlege you or ever peak you name again.
It was/is believed that if your name is never spoken or recognized then you become a ghost of sorts or what we call 'Kau wa' or stuck in time. Proverbially kicked off the conveyor belt of life. Never to return to the Godhead, source, initial conscienceness or whatever term works for you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
As a young man I had no capacity for forgiveness at all.
I would hold and dwell on grudges for years.
One of my Hawaiian teachers taught me a lot about forgiveness. It took years for his teaching to even start to take hold in my life and interactions with others.
I knew that the negative mental energy I harbored ultimately only hurt me and not the person I was upset with. Still yet there was something simple I was not getting.
In a nut shell... You must forgive for your own mental and physical health.
Jesus' teachings talk a lot of forgiveness. In the bible it says he taught people to 'Turn the other cheek'.
This is where the conflict comes. How can I forgive when I also am told that the philosophy of 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth' is a valid one?
OK Jesus was no fool. He said turn the other cheek. I don't think he meant to roll over and expose your jugular in submission too every passer by. No! instead he was saying... Don't retaliate. Forgive the transgressions against you but... if someone swings then duck stupid! Turn the cheek, deflect/side step the blow !
My teacher said "You can hit me in the head with a baseball bat and I can forgive you before you even wind up". He went on "But if you think I am not going to duck the blow your mistaken. And If I see you wind up a second time I will either be gone or you have me backed into a corner at which point I will be forced to do my best to neutralize your threat. I will still forgive you, but I won't let you do it to me a second time."
For me that was the key I was missing.
I always equated forgiveness with being submissive. it is not at all.
The key for me is in this expression:
"Just because I have forgiven you does not mean I have to let you do it too me again."
My teacher also taught about a word we have that loosely/generally translates to righteousness.
He taught about the word and explained it as simply a lifestyle of:
Ike aku, Ike mai
Aloha aku, Aloha mai
Kokua aku, Kokua mai
Ike is knowledge, Aloha well you know...?
And kokua is selfless giving/service.
My teacher explained, a righteous or 'Pono' person is one that is never so proud they won't teach or to proud to learn. Never to proud to share Aloha, never to proud to receive it. Never to proud to help another, never to proud to accept help from others.
Pretty simple yuh?
Well that threw a monkey wrench into my ability to understand and effect forgiveness in my life. How was I supposed to share my aloha with someone that has wronged me? My teacher said "Look if you come to my house and I offer hospitality yet you steal from me while there. I know you did it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Now, if I see you in town I will share aloha. However if you show up at the mouth of my driveway looking for hospitality I will simply speak (with aloha) too you on the street, but you will most likely not be getting any closer to my house than the public road."
He said "Remember, you must forgive, you must share aloha, knowledge and selfless service. However forgiveness does not mean you have to let it be done too you again!"
"First time you wrong me, shame on you... the second time, shame on me."
It took years (LOL 15 or so and counting) for this concept to start to sink in and take effect in my life. I still have to work pretty hard at forgiving sometimes. But the knowledge that I can share and care for others, even those that have transgressed against me has become a powerful force in my life. I feel that my teacher and his helping me understand that forgiveness is our gift to our selves yet forgiveness doesn't intrinsically equate to submission in any way.
In closing I want to say that my confusion or conflict of forgiveness and pride seems to be quit prevalent amongst a lot of Christians I have spoken with. I have met gads of Christians that have a hard time understanding how to blend forgiveness with the "eye for an eye..." concept. I think that the issue arises in the misconception that forgiveness equates with submission.
~~~~~~~~
One of my best friends in Hawaii was once attacked by an aggressive drunk at a wedding reception. I watched as my friend tried unsuccessfully to diffuse the aggression. The aggressor went for it and started to irrationally throw blows. My friend wound up on the guy's chest after he knocked out the aggressor with a choke hold. Before the guy came to, my friend asked me to get two fresh cups of beer from the keg. As the aggressor came around my friend explained "Dear Bruddah, I have two cold beers. You have two choices."
I was amazed at the aloha and forgiveness displayed by my friend. He never once showed anger or retaliation. He simply neutralized the physical threat and then managed to address the emotional negativity with nothing but understanding, forgiveness and aloha!
Granted that's a pretty base if not crass example, yet none the less was/is quite a powerful experience/memory for me.
~~~~~~~~
Saaaweeeee eeee eeeet
forgiveness
Sweeter than honey, sweeter than wine
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gonzo chemist
climber
a crucible
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Mar 30, 2010 - 07:08pm PT
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Science is the dominant paradigm, but has overreached. It can only function in tightly controlled environments. It has replaced dualistic god\ devil with a dualistic Truth\untruth (based on materialism).
Binks,
Science has nothing to do with "truth" or "untruth." That's covered well enough in theology. Scientific inquiry is the search for FACT.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
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Great Posts Chief and Bum
Since this is an old thread, my thoughts on forgiveness are detailed in the original post.
Pate wrote
I love your posts and respect you big tine man, but I am going to have to emphatically state that acceptance and forgiveness are two entirely different beasts. Acceptance deals with the present and future whereas forgiveness dwells in the past . That's the most basic difference, but check the definitions, there are many, many more.
They are not entirely different although there are distinctions. Forgiveness only happens in the present, whenever that is. When you can accept what happened, without creating a division or holding an emotional story, that's a level of forgiveness. Acceptance is a level of being free from from negativity about something.
But of course people use words differently.
Just to note that in the OP and in posts above, Forgiveness has nothing to do with letting people back in our life, trusting them with important things, or feeling that they have changed.
It's just discharging the poison negativity about something or someone that we hold within us.
Who ever needs it?
People who actually subconsciously relish being angry and resentful. It also gives power over another to withhold forgiveness. It sounds harsh but its super common. We all have some negativity that we enjoy chewing on, just like complaining work talk.
Peace
Karl
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 30, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
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Scientific inquiry is the search for FACT.
There are no facts, only stronger or weaker probabilities. And there are plenty of cracks in the cement, once you know where to look.
On that note Atheism is the same as theism, it's just the opposite side of the coin. We like to define things by their opposites, but what if there really aren't any? Bohr said "the opposite of a great truth is another great truth."
I prefer indeterminacy and probability. Not agnosticism, but I'm willing to believe both at the same time. That god will probably exist if I observe him, but might not if I don't. New physics in a way, if you will.
TrundleBum, I like your perspective. However even if God does not throw people into hell, he created the system that allows it to happen (if you believe in it). So in there lies plenty of philosophical quandary.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 30, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
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Just wanted to pop in and say...
I even forgive Cosmic for my new nic' name.
But then how could I knott ?
It's concise unlike me.
Pate you'll get a kick out of it ;)
(toungue in cheek):
Thankz a lot Cosmic. Now half of my immediate tribe are calling me...
'PUNCHLINE'
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 30, 2010 - 09:46pm PT
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re: last 1/2 dozen posts.
PUNCHLINE
"forgiveness has nothing to do with not letting it be done too you again"
(or for that matter in the first place)
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 30, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
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PUNCHLINE
Forgiveness although being intrinsic to some religions and philosophies...
religion is not intrinsic to forgiveness!
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 30, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
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forgiveness and conciliation are total bs suggestions to anybody whom is still seeking to find refuge or sanctuary space fully buffered then insulated from ongoing physical violence, threat of physical violence
or its unrecognised companion, extremist emotional abuse
That's why I posted this:
...I think you have got to have a discriminating faculty and let bastards be bastards and let those that ought to be hit in the jaw get it. In fact, I have a list. If anybody has a working guillotine, I’d be glad to give them my list.
When I look
in the faces of my enemies
it makes me proud.
-Joseph Campbell
Like or not, some people deserve a punch in the face or worse. After that's taken care "forgiveness" can be more philosophical.
Edit: Looks like the person I quoted deleted their post. Point remains though.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2010 - 11:31am PT
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Binks wrote
Like or not, some people deserve a punch in the face or worse. After that's taken care "forgiveness" can be more philosophical.
Deserving a punch is not an excuse for delivering a punch. Looking at the childhood of people I know who have been terribly violent, it seems they have had violence done to them. The cycle has to stop somewhere
Peace
Karl
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 31, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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New MIT research supports the magical theory I posted:
"A grand unified theory of AI"
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2010/ai-unification.html
the magic trick is saying, ‘No, no, just tell me a few things,’ and then the brain — or in this case the Church system, hopefully somewhat analogous to the way the mind does it — can churn out, using its probabilistic calculation, all the consequences and inferences. And also, when you give the system new information, it can figure out the consequences of that.”
This is the magical mode. They funny thing is this stuff has been known for years by people who understand magical thinking. The scientists are always playing catch up.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 31, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
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A synergy exists between the Far Right and the Devoutly Religious. It existed even before Richard M. Nixon married the two with his Southern Strategy. In their messianic enthusiasm they both lack the ability to question themselves and lack the inclination carefully to weigh the pro’s and con’s. Their world is utterly simple. Black or white. Right or wrong. No question missing an answer. Doubt has been cast out.
Something as complex as christ’s urging to forgive and to turn the other cheek cannot be grasped. It is a topsy turvy world. Christians become pagans. Pagans become true Christians. A field of stumps becomes a Healthy Forest. And words of hatred are voiced by persons gazing lovingly upward.
It’s insane.
In war, a people can become a mirror image of those they hate. We invaded Iraq and killed Iraqi so that they might have democracy and not be tortured. We were willing to torture them so that they might not be tortured. Before each waterboarding did our people tell their captives, “This is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you”? Had they, for once, it would have been the truth.
It at least seems we have advanced the hypothesis that some persons are able to face a question; are able to face uncertainty. And others are not. That there are two permanently alienated populations and victory must be won. And we must not accept any questions as to the manner in which that victory is to be won.
If we accept this hypothesis, do we not become them?
This concept was voiced 2000 years ago.
It is still true.
Life is messy.
That is the only certainty.
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 31, 2010 - 01:59pm PT
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The problem is simply dualism. The way out is subversion of both sides. Try other modes of thought like trinity and quadraplicity on for size.
Quadraplicity view of the overly simple contentious dualism of American politics:
"x" Axis: Social liberal------Social Conservative
"y" Axis: Fiscal liberal------Fiscal Conservative
Now we have an analytical mode where you can plot a position in 4 quadrants and thinking become introspective and categorical but much harder to created directly oppositional thinking.
For instance on the x axis I find myself farther to the left, but on the y axis farther to the right. So the dualism of left\ right is destroyed. I find I must manipulate and subvert both sides to insure adequate creative movement forward.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 31, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
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Pate -- "Physical violence is never acceptable in any way."
Next time you're in for surgery tell that to the doctor before he makes his incision.
"A warrior's duty is to protect the citizens from all kinds of difficulties, and for that reason he has to apply violence in suitable cases for law and order."
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-393
Reasons to Forgive, Part 1
Selected Scriptures
Code: 90-393
I want to talk to you tonight and next Sunday night about the issue of forgiveness. It probably doesn’t come up as often as it should in our discussions from the pulpit here because it is a very, very important issue. What makes it an important issue in the church, and we’re talking to believers tonight, we’re not so much talking about God’s forgiveness toward us as we’re talking about our forgiveness toward each other. But it is a very vital and a very essential and a very necessary component of life in the church because the church, even at its best, is a collision of sinners. We all understand that. We are guilty of saying the wrong thing, and behaving in wrong ways. We have all offended people. We have all caused people to stumble. We have all crossed the line of discretion into indiscretion and the way we deal with people and treat people. We have all showed preferential treatment at times. We have all been less than considerate to people in need. We have failed to give to folks what they need at the time they need it. There are many, many points at which sinners collide in the church. And because the church is a very intimate fellowship, only to be exceeded in its intimacy by family, we borrow that image, don’t we?, the image of a family. We are seen as God’s family and the intimacy then throws us together and we crash into each other and our weaknesses are made manifest and so we are guilty from time to time of offending.
It then becomes essential to the ongoing life of the church, the ongoing joy of believers that we be able to deal with those offenses with an attitude of forgiveness...of forgiveness. In the end, what finally destroys every relationship is an inability to forgive. It isn’t the offense that destroys the relationship, it is the inability to forgive that destroys the relationship. Offenses will come. Even our Lord said that. Offenses will come. That’s part of living life in a fallen world and dealing even in the church with the people who have not yet been perfected. How we deal with those offenses is what determines the nature of our relationship. It is that way in a marriage. It is that way in a family. It is that way among friends. It is certainly that way in the church.
Not only is this matter of forgiveness essential to the cohesiveness of the church, as it is to the family and to marriage, not only is this the path to joy and satisfaction and fulfillment in the family and in the church, that is collectively, but the inability to forgive not only destroys relationship, it destroys the people who don’t forgive. It is not only destructive of relationships, it is self-destructive. And Scripture makes it very, very clear that where there is a lack of forgiveness, there will develop bitterness and out of bitterness come hatred and couple with hatred comes anger and the end of hatred and anger and bitterness is the pursuit of vengeance. Retaliation is sought and retaliation is never satisfied and vengeance is never really appeased and consequently people live with the bitterness and it is deeper and deeper as they live with it longer.
We live in a society that has made a virtue...or tried to make a virtue out of vindictiveness. Three out of every four attorneys on the planet live in America. They have to be here in order to take up all the litigation that comes from angry, bitter people wanting to get every piece of flesh they can get out of anybody who has stepped across the line, into the offense zone.
Even psychologists have said that forgiveness is not healthy. That’s right. Forgiveness is not healthy. You don’t need to carry around that offense. You need to get resolution and the best way to get resolution is to be vindictive. Years ago I read a popular book called Toxic Parents and in this book Toxic Parents the author has a chapter entitled, “You don’t have to forgive.” She says that children who have been offended by the behavior of their parents must not forgive their parents, they must heap on their parents full blame for their present problems because their parents poisoned them by their toxicity. And so she suggests that the new cry should be, “I am the victim, it’s not my fault, I’m not responsible, my parents did it to me.”
Guilt for everything is pushed off on someone else and vengeance needs to be not only exalted but exhausted. However, the price of vengeance is extremely high..extremely high. An unforgiving attitude, a bitterness that runs deep, a desire for vengeance that comes out of vindictiveness or hate, or anger, will do several things. Number one, it imprisons people in their past. This is the price of an unforgiving heart. It imprisons people in their past. As long as people will not forgive, as long as people will not put the past in the past, but continue to seek an unfulfilled level of vengeance, they are shackled to their past. They are shackled to that past event. The pain of that event is fed. It is not only kept alive, it is fed until it becomes larger and larger.
Another way to look at it is, if you don’t forgive things that have happened in the past, you continue to pick at an open sore, you keep it from healing, you enlarge it, you sentence yourself to the future feeling worse than you felt in the past when it happened. You choose to love hate and hate dominates.
This unforgiveness then produces bitterness. It becomes an infection and it is malignant, it harasses, it creates distorted memories which create a distorted view of life. Anger becomes out of control. Emotions become unchecked. People entertain ideas about revenge, every conversation becomes a forum for slandering the people who have supposedly harmed you so profoundly. Every conversation becomes an opportunity for defamation, exaggeration and outright lies.
On the other hand, forgiveness frees a person from both of these categories of tragedy. Forgiveness frees you to enjoy all relationships and to live with peace and tranquility in your own heart. Forgiveness is a very freeing reality.
Now Scripture exalts forgiveness for these reasons and for the one greater reason and that is forgiveness honors God. And I’ll get to that in a moment. But as far as I can tell, in the Bible there are at least 75 word pictures of forgiveness. Relax, I’m not giving you all 75 of them. But there are at least 75 figures of speech, or analogies that are used in Scripture as word pictures of forgiveness. Here are a few.
To forgive is to turn the key, open the cell door and let the prisoner free.
To forgive is to write in large letters across a debt, “Nothing Owed.”
To forgive is to pound the gavel in a courtroom and declare the person, “Not Guilty.”
To forgive is to shoot an arrow so high and so far that it can never be retrieved.
To forgive is to take out the garbage and dispose of it, leaving the house fresh and clean.
To forgive is to loose the anchor and set the ship free to sail.
Again, a few more biblical pictures.
To forgive is to grant a full pardon to a condemned and sentenced criminal.
To forgive is to loosen a stranglehold on a wrestling opponent.
To forgive is to sandblast a wall of graffiti leaving it brand new.
To forgive is to smash a clay pot into a thousand pieces so it can never be put together again.
These are biblical pictures of forgiveness, very instructive. Forgiveness is a marvelous, virtuous, liberating, loving attitude and act. It makes sense to forgive. It is healthy. It is wholesome. It is sensible. It is freeing. It brings peace. It engenders love. That is why Proverbs 19:11 says, “A man’s foolishness is not to forgive. It is folly.”....cond.-part#1
Part#2. http://www.gty.org/Shop/Audio+Lessons/90-394_Reasons-to-Forgive-Part-2
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WBraun
climber
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On the battle field the soldier will forgive after the bullet enters between the enemies eyes .....
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Binks
Social climber
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There are three applicable types combining in different formations. Each one of these would "forgive" quite differently in isolation or in combination.
cop = force for order\morality
hooligan = unregulated energy for its own sake (amoral\disorder)
holyman = can be wise, but is an idealist. largely actionless
So there are two active principle and one passive.
When two of the three become united in consciousness without awareness, it creates oppositions.
cop + hooligan = soldier (force for an order driven by otherwise unregulated energy)
hooligan + holyman = revolutionary (force for change\reorganization driven by idealism)
holyman + cop = gentleman (force applied for an idealogical hierarchy driven by isolation\rejection of those lower on the scale)
Each thing comprised of the other two makes an opponent of the thinking predominating in the remaining third.
Revolutionary opposes Cop. If successful, becomes cop.
Soldier can't stand a pacifist idealist. But after the war is over goes to holyman\idealist for reconciliation.
Gentleman can't stand that hooligan. But the gentleman's garbage which he can't bear to acknowledge is what creates the hooligan.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 28, 2013 - 08:19am PT
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Why do people who have been abused often invite their abuser back into their life? Is it low self esteem? Do they see physical and psychological abuse as attention they are otherwise lacking?
Do they see it as forgiveness?
Forgiveness gone wrong!
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 28, 2013 - 11:04am PT
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“But now, for the first time, I see you are a man like me. I thought of your hand-grenades, of your bayonet, of your rifle; now I see your wife and your face and our fellowship. Forgive me, comrade. We always see it too late. Why do they never tell us that you are poor devils like us, that your mothers are just as anxious as ours, and that we have the same fear of death, and the same dying and the same agony--Forgive me, comrade; how could you be my enemy?”
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Oct 28, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
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Bravo Karl
I don't buy into the religious bullshit that other people spew, but from an interpersonal and mental health perspective "forgiveness" is very healthy on all kinds of levels.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Oct 28, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
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Why do people who have been abused often invite their abuser back into their life? Is it low self esteem? Do they see physical and psychological abuse as attention they are otherwise lacking?
Do they see it as forgiveness?
Forgiveness gone wrong!
Hey Jaybro, here's my distillation of what I've learned from various places:
1) We are born with no sense of self. We learn what love means from what we receive from our care-givers at the earliest stage of our lives. Whatever it is that we received becomes the very definition of love.
2) For some unlucky folks, their first programming about what "love" is, well it's pretty messed up: neglect, abandonment, violence, pain, guilt, etc.
3) Some people go through crap and figure out this was all bad initial programming and learn to overcome it and get themselves reprogrammed. Many people don't figure it out, and keep playing the same broken record until the day they die.
4) Take a person deeply scripted in being abused, tell them about the merits of forgiveness ("turn the other cheek"), and you have a recipe for disaster.
That about sums it up.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 28, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
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Why do people who have been abused often invite their abuser back into their life?
Karma ......
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 28, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
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It can be ! Not so great when it gets you killed, however.....
Where does forgiveness end and submission begin?
Edit; Sadly Werner, I think you're right, a total buzzkill to those of us on the sidelines, rooting for the karmicly challenged team we favor and love!
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Oct 28, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
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They only look different.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Oct 28, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
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I say submission begins when your inability to accept the circumstances inhibits your sense of joy and happiness.
CASE 1:
A very strong and centered and self-contented person (person A) is treated rudely by another (person B). Person A accepts the behavior of person B with an amused detachment, recognizing the lack of development in person B. Person A loses nothing, and by being patient to accept the crap, they try to teach what is expected of person B, and they give a chance for person B to practice, to recover from their mistake, and change their ways. This is forgiveness. If person B takes advantage of the situation, then person A can forgive them for the trespasses, but would probably avoid being in the situation again.
CASE 2:
A lonely and afraid and needy person (person C) is treated rudely by another (same person B from before). Person C accepts the behavior of person B because they feel powerless to change it, are fearful of something, and the interaction reinforces person C's world view that they are not worth better treatment. This is a pretty negative submission. Person B can continue unchecked in the rude behavior toward person C.
In both cases, the outwardly observable behaviors might be identical in the first interactions, but what's going on inside makes all the difference.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Oct 28, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
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^^^
Exactly
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Oct 28, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
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There is so much genius in this expression:
grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
Such a pithy statement that captures sooooo much, perhaps everything, in relation to this topic.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 28, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
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You nailed it ( what I was talking about anyway) with case #2, nut again!
It's worse though, because person C, in accepting his or her fate attempts to drag down other people, at least some of whom are person A types, down to the c-level of acceptence/resignment. These A-people won't go there, but feeling empathy and compassion for person -c , are collosoally bummed out!
Life is a bitch sometimes!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 28, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
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I have fantasies like that Tioga, but the non comic book world often does not allow for that.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 28, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
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Nah, b gets a lawyer where ya been?
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