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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 02:23pm PT
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two words......kick ass!!!!
edit: this one I remember...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OkoWEMCnLQ&feature=related
It shows out tactical precision and 'respect' for people who are running out of a mosque with weopons. The mosque was untouched by the Spectre Gunship.
You can run, but you'll just die tired. United Stated Air Force motto.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 02:25pm PT
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Yes, I feel safer now.
New terrorists born every minute since we're killing their relatives and making their county uninhabitable.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 02:33pm PT
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Steve, not when a Predator or GlobalHawk is watching.
Don't worry the USAF loves you, man, you're safe.
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andanother
climber
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Jun 11, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
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YEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAAW!!!!!!!!!!!
We done showed them tayrists whoos boss!!!!
Ya'lls comin over ta watch us up some NASCAR this weekend?
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 11, 2008 - 02:40pm PT
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Nice shots Minerals...
Sorry I missed blast fest btw.
SteveW - 'making their country uninhabitable' ????? ITS A DESERT DUDE
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Jun 11, 2008 - 02:42pm PT
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Inefficient and overly expensive population control
That really says it all.
I love to play with cool toys and make things go boom as much as any rightwing nutcase, but you have to choose the right tool for the job and sometimes, as in the case of Iraq, you shouldn't even take the job.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 02:44pm PT
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Sure, blue.
That's why they're flying armed nukes over OUR country.
And that's why your new child is going to live a life of
less because of the obscene military spending (only enriching
the defense contractors, may I add), more than the rest of the
world combined? Who's our enemy? We have met him and he is us. . . you're probably too young to remember Pogo.
Nope, we can't supply armor for our troops, but we sure can create a lot of collateral damage (oops, I meant kill innocent
civilians) with this unjustified, and obscene war.
Yes, I feel bunches safer.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 11, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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Those are normally all effective tools when not wielded by treasonous and incompetent cowards who had all evaded the draft so no nothing about military operations. Further, they have undercut returning Veterans at every single opportunity, squandered our military might, corrupted the Constitution and balance of power, and handed Tehran and Beijing significant geopolitical advantage at the cost of about two trillion dollars. In 2000, OBL and the Chinese leadership couldn't have written a dream script for the next eight years this good.
And, all you rank and file conservatives have been played hard by corporate interests on every front entirely enabled by the administration while they distracted you with this oh so necessary war. Not to mention that the "homeland" is no more prepared for a terrorist attact then it was in August of 2001.
But no doubt, you can shoot your way out of any situation - especially if you turn off all rational thinking processes from the trigger guard on back...
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jun 11, 2008 - 02:51pm PT
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hang on a sec.
*Sits back in chair and grabs popcorn*
OK, go.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 11, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Jun 11, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
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Putting aside the question of whether or not our current military actions are just, or justified, or effective, I wonder if anyone else is ill at ease with this sort of fetishism?
Some wars are necessary and when one has to fight, or indeed kill, because it is unavoidable and necessary to prevent a greater evil, then that conflict and the sacrifices it requires are in a sense noble.
Nevertheless, to take such obvious pleasure in war is more than a little sick, morally and spiritually.
Many people I admire have played a role in armed conflict, several of them as part of the elite units that would no doubt give such war-fetishists a tingly feeling in their nether regions. However, none of them took pleasure in war, death, and destruction.
Some wars are necessary. It is necessary to resist evil. Fighting, and fighting hard, is sometimes the morally right thing to do. Killing other people is sometimes necessary, but it should never be "fun."
To take pleasure in the destruction, "collateral damage," savagery, and dehumanizing tendencies (for both the "victors" and the "victims") smacks of ill-informed and ill-formed adolescents with a caricatured understanding of courage, honor, and other virtues.
Brian
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
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Kev
Oh, I forgot, all the war destroyed the ancient gardens of
Babylon, whose food fed much of the world in the past.
Yes, the earliest breadbasket of the world, the area
between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. It's totally a
desert. Yes, Phoenix, Arizona is in a desert. Don't you think
they had habitations in many of those places.
Oops, I forgot, ready, fire, aim . . .
Thanks, OUCH, for lightening it up!!! :-)
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
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Yeah, I'm grateful we can spend $100,000 a shot to blow up a guy on a camel 100 miles away. Hey we can even see the nose hairs. What a great use of my money.
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:09pm PT
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Yeah Brian, that was written thousands of years ago in the Tao Te Ching:
Weapons are the tools of violence;
all decent men detest them.
Weapons are the tools of fear;
a decent man will avoid them
except in the direst necessity
and, if compelled, will use them
only with the utmost restraint.
Peace is his highest value.
If the peace has been shattered,
how can he be content?
His enemies are not demons,
but human beings like himself.
He doesn't wish them personal harm.
Nor does he rejoice in victory.
How could he rejoice in victory
and delight in the slaughter of men?
He enters a battle gravely,
with sorrow and with great compassion,
as if he were attending a funeral.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:10pm PT
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500 Billion spent last time I looked.
That is money that won't go to schools, roads, hospitals, food supplies, programs for urban development, jobs, medical advances...
Oh - don't forget the states are all bankrupt too...
Don't get me wrong bro - I'm a gun nut too.
But this is a crime of a magnitude we can barely comprehend...
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:15pm PT
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Hey Minerals and Bluering and the rest of you war cheerleaders:
Did you, or do you currently, serve in the military? (I did).
If no, why not?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:22pm PT
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ElCap, stupid arguement, I was too stupid and anti-gov't when I was younger (liberal). Now...I've actually considered it since they raised the enlistment age to 41 or 42. Considered border patrol too....Me and Minerals on BP duty, could you imagine?
Seriously, that's a stupid arguement. What, I have to serve to able to support killing murderers? Silly...
besides, there's lots of young marines that have my full support, do they have yours?
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:24pm PT
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"Putting aside the question of whether or not our current military actions are just, or justified, or effective, I wonder if anyone else is ill at ease with this sort of fetishism?"
Nope.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:26pm PT
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I'm sure Elcap is just like me--ardent patriots, we take democracy seriously, we're active in government, writing our non-listening congressional delegations. But we also support our
troops fully. We say bring 'em home NOW, out of danger in
an illegal and immoral war that they have no business fighting.
It certainly wasn't to defend our country.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:26pm PT
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SteveW,
I'm not arguing a historical issue about grain being grown or if there are fertile lands (which there between the Euphrates and Tigris). You claimed the we have made it uninhabital. I disagree. How specifically have we made it uninhabitable? Have we polluted it? Have we raped the natural resources of the area? Have we burned or destroyed large amounts of its natural resources? If you're going to argue that blowing up buildings will render a country uninhabitable I would like to remind you of the many countries that were involved in WWII and all the other wars through out the years. England, Russia, and Germany are well populated aren't they? Also I am not making a statement about the war being good/bad, right/wrong, all I am doing is calling you on what I think is BS which is the uninhabitable statement.
kev
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
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A wave of joy and hope just swept over me..... Thanks Minerals!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
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Steve, even Obama would not bring our troops home NOW, you peacnik!
Can you at least be fuc-ing realistic?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:29pm PT
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Armchair warrior circle jerk.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:30pm PT
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up2top,
Come on didn't you love to play with firecrackers as a kid? Do you dislike fireworks? I think the fetishism you speak of is far more innocent at its roots. Blowing sh#t up is cool. Killing people well that's an entirely different issue all together, and if that is what you think the fetishism is about well then I can see your point, but perhaps that isn't what it's about. Then again how would I know I'm the pyro around the campfire :)
kev
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:31pm PT
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Okay Kev, well taken.
Then how about the utilities this war has destroyed?
The Iraqi's have maybe an hour of electricity a day, when it was much more available under Saddam. How many children have died due to disease because they drink unclean water because the treatment plants have been bombed inoperable, how many hospitals have no power to run lights for operating rooms, have no medications due to the sanctions the United States placed on
Iraq even before the shrub administration? Seems a pretty
uninhabitable place to me--especially if you get shot by some
blackwater dude that just wanted to go 'hunting' that day. . .
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:31pm PT
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Any bets on how long it takes for this thread to hit 200 posts?
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:37pm PT
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up2top:
Thankfully, other comments on this thread belie your "nope."
kev:
I think your point above about fetishism might have been meant for me rather than up2top. On the one hand you are right, there is nothing essentially wrong with being fascinated about guns (I own one, though I don't have a fetish for it and have not been shooting in years), though I would argue it does tend to be a more destructive fetish than, say, running. Nevertheless, my comments about the fetishistic aspects of the post were directed at the fetishistic attraction to violence and destruction itself. You may be a pyro around a campfire (all of us are I suspect), but there is a difference between tossing pine needles into the fire and tossing a cat into the fire...
Brian
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
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In this thread we masturbate to pictures of guns, explosions and soldiers and then try to one up each other.
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craig mo
Trad climber
L.A. Ca.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:49pm PT
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you left out the pictures of screaming widows, mothers
how about some audio you tough guy.
liberals vs. conservatives = stupid distraction.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:51pm PT
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Brian,
Yeah my bad, it was a response to you comment. I think as long as the attraction is towards the destruction it is fine. Ever watch a building being town down? It's amazing. The way a pressure vessel explodes and fails is utterly complex and interesting. The amount of pure force involved is mind boggling. It's is that interest that I think is fine. If you however link that with the violence then sure that's screwed up. The question is about the link between the two and who has, said link, and who doesn't. I think that there are very few (I hope at least) people on the Taco that link those things (maybe Juan and Jody (just joking you two)).
kev
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:53pm PT
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Bluering, are you really sure we are over there killing murderers? You're a parent now, yes?
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
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"Hey Minerals and Bluering and the rest of you war cheerleaders:
Did you, or do you currently, serve in the military? (I did).
If no, why not? "
Wish I could have. I'm blind in my right eye.
I don't consider it cheerleading, though. Support for this mission? Yes. But I'd just assume we get it done and come home, too. It's certainly a better option than just leaving Iraq with an unstable national military that can't ward off a potential civil war.
Ed
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 03:58pm PT
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Yes, Oppenheimer and Einstein were both involved in the development of the atomic bomb for the United States.
After seeing the first test Oppenheimer is said to have quoted
from the Hindu scripture from the Bhagavad-Gita, "I am become death, destroyer of worlds."
Both also encouraged Truman to demonstrate it's power to Japan
so they would surrender without having to experience it's devastation
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:00pm PT
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How about if we post some photos of the collateral damage caused by Sadr's Mahdi Army, or Al Queda operating in Iraq? Actually, it's very likely those photos are the direct result of those factions rather than the US Military.
Ed
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:04pm PT
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"Putting aside the question of whether or not our current military actions are just, or justified, or effective, I wonder if anyone else is ill at ease with this sort of fetishism?"
I am. Like you and Will. That doesn't mean I don't love to blow the sh#t out of things. I was the team lead EOD specialist (EOD= Emergency Ordinance Destruct) for my team and wasted plenty of your taxpayer $ on C4 and Dynamite in OD green. Det Cord, Electric and regular blasting caps, fuses, the whole fun shebang: loved it. It was a job I was good at and enjoyed.
But yeah, this seems over the top to me.
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L
climber
The right side of the tracks but in the wrong town
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:07pm PT
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You also left out the photos of:
The mutilated bodies of babies (many the size and age of your own, Bluering)
Little children who loved to play
Young boys and girls who thought they had a future
Teenagers hoping to start a family one day
Adults who never did a thing to hurt anyone
Grandparents who had worked hard to make a living in a desert environment
Every purty smoke plume you're wanking to is hiding a hideous, foul truth: Corpses of innocent men, women and children.
We are no better than the terrorists, we just have shinier weapons.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:07pm PT
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Ed, that's pretty naive if you're trying to suggest there isn't a shitload of collateral from our troops and security contractors.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:10pm PT
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And a lot of the collateral damage from the Mahdi army is
the century old battle of Sunni against Shia. I'm not
saying it's right, just stating the fact.
It's interesting that Cheyney said after Desert Storm they didn't want to go all the way to Bhagdad--'if you break it you bought it'. . .
but he certainly was eager for it this time.
And how he lies that we're so much safer now. . .
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:10pm PT
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kev,
I'll try to use "violence" and "destruciton" with the distinction you have laid out. I hope I'm not getting it wrong and putting words in your mouth.
We agree that the fetishism of "violence" (i.e., destruction visited upon living beings) is bad. I also agree that it is not too common.
The fetishism of "destruction" (i.e., breaking things or blowing them up, etc.) is not bad per se. Nothing wrong with admiring the power of a tornado, etc.
However, I lack the conviction that there is not a connection between destruction and violence. We all have some fascination with destruction; many people find avalanches, tornadoes, etc. compelling manifestations of the sublime. However, those who actually fetishize the destruction tend, in my experience, to become insensitive to violence as well (even when they do not, strictly speaking, fetishize violence itself).
All wars are failures. A war may be a necessary failure, as is the case in a war of self defense or a just war. Nevertheless, they remain failures, not something to glory in.
Brian
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:11pm PT
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Weapons are cool in the same way Bruce Lee was cool. They kick ass.
But are they used in offense or defense? That is the question which helps determine if their use is honorable or not.
Kicking someone's ass who tries to rob you is cool.
Kicking someone's ass because you thought they were checking out your girlfriend is lame and the sign of a total loser.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
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The fact of the matter is, military personnel never want to go to war,
False.
On-site reporting from 29 Palms, land of the few and the proud.
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pleasantOs
climber
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
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"They Do They Don't"
Tied down against the tracks
Screaming in silent black and white
Why'd you trust us we are such villains
We would tell ourselves anything
we want to hear if we are willing
To listen is to learn
Then too much is what we deserve
And how come when we say that we do
We don't
Pray to anybody you want
We won't
But if we're the ones to blame then the fruit
Shouldn't taste so good we were used
Used to thinking we got nothing to lose
We're losing everything but the truth
Is walking straight into a roadblock ending left here bending
Your point of view was chosen by the serpent's ruse
With all its do's and don'ts
The future is an empty promise
Unconcerned and so tired of waiting
We could sell it wooden horses
full of nightmares and when they open
This all might recompose
There's no going back to the good old days
it's just a phase bring in some new life
Archaism is a dusty road leading us back to nowhere
But if we're the ones to blame then the fruit
Shouldn't taste so good we were used
Used to thinking we got nothing to lose
We're losing everything but the truth
Is walking straight into a roadblock ending left here bending
Your point of view was chosen by the serpent's ruse
How come when we say we do
We don't
How come when we say we will
We won't
~ jack johnson
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
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Russ
Did you ever see the movie Yes Sir! No Sir!!!
Yes, all soldiers want to go to war. You bet.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:18pm PT
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"liberals vs. conservatives = stupid distraction."
craig_mo - i want to buy you a beer - spot on....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:19pm PT
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ECap, I think you're actually serious. Did you watch any video as to how much attention we pay to killing the target and not inflicting collateral damage? Are you just being disengenuous?
On one video, the fu-king gunner is telling command that hellfire fire would inflict less damage than randon .50 machine-gun fire. He even says, "f*#k " we need to fire a Hellfire to save people.
Dude, quit listening to michael moore's crap. The United Staes Marine Corps is probably more humanitarian than the United Nations, the ACLU, and Amnesty Int'l, combined.
You should bless the USMC, like I do, every fu-king night for your freedoms, AND THE FREEDOM OF GERMANS, JAPS, AND ITALIANS to actually be still alive AND THRIVING.
God Bless the USMC! (and all u.s. servicemen).
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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Oh, and I forgot all about the collateral damage to our own
troops, like the brave Pat Tillman, killed by friendly fire, then covered up by the Pentagon. His poor mother is still trying to get the truth about his death from the 'honorable' military.
And too, those poor soldiers who've returned from 3 or 4 tours over there, those with PTSD, the hundreds that have committed suicide for what they saw and did there. And about the 'tremendous' support this administration is giving them in veteran's benefits (oh yeah, McBush is right up there at the top voting against those benefits for the troops).
How many of the miltary who've gone AWOL so they won't return to
Iraq, or of the women in the forces who've been raped and abused by their comrades in arms. Or have died due to dehydration in that desert because they are afraid of drinking water afternoons because they're terrified to go to the latrine at night fearing they'll be raped or worse.
yep, a helluva defense for our country.
I feel soooooo much safer now.
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drgonzo
Trad climber
east bay, CA
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:32pm PT
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Wow, the faux-macho warmongers (as long as they don't actually have to go and fight, of course) on this thread reminds me of a bunch of 7th grade boys. Tanks! Keeeewl! Ooo machine guns! Keeeewl!
Pathetic.
A fair percentage of the GIs in those pictures can look forward to coming home and grappling with a lifetime of untreated PTSD. Killing and torturing people fortunately doesn't come naturally to humans. They'll pay with their psyches--funny, they didn't go over that part in the recruiting office.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:36pm PT
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My test of morality is this "get in their shoes and see if it still feels just"
Terrorists that nothing to do with Iraq took down the towers and we felt justified in attacking a country that had no link to the terror at all. Just happened to be the same religion but it was a secular country to boot.
Now that we attacked Iraq and killed many, many more innocent people than were killed on 9-11, don't the Iraqis have a similar greivance like we had after 9-11?
How can we feel good killing hundreds of thousands in a country that didn't attack us and didn't have anything to do with 9-11. Millions are homeless refugees now. It was easily known that factions would create civil war when the minority Sunni government was overturned.
Have you no shame? Doesn't it matter that it's BS that we're there? What's your grievance with people who are either innocent victims or defending their country against foreign invaders? Wouldn't you defend this country no matter who invaded us?
Grow up and join humanity
Peace
Karl
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:38pm PT
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Nice post, Karl
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:39pm PT
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To the OP:
For your liberal friends?
Well isn't that sweet.
Well I have 2 words for you pal:
F U C K Y O U
And quite honestly, I mean that from the very bottom of my (liberal bleeding) heart.
It's one thing if you want to get all excited about a gun or guns, but it's another thing to get all excited about an unjust war, about the killing of innocent people- women and children included- at some unknown rate that we who do the killing don't bother to tabulate.
F U C K Y O U
That's really big of you to ask "where's Allah now, bitches?"
You must be a rich fat white American with little or no exposure to people of color, people of other cultures, people of other religions, etc.
(I really feel sorry for you (and the poor white trash family/community that you no doubt come from), all you get to appreciate in this world is whatever it is that you know something about already, but not all the wonderful things and peoples and cultures and traditions that you know little or nothing about).
But back to how pathetic you are-
Are you thinking that those people who our soldiers are detaining are necessarily guilty of anything? Because the instances of brutality and the use of lethal force upon innocents are well documented; that is not meant to be a stab at our soldiers, in a war there are going to be dead people, and not all of them are accurately identified as threats or enemies before they are killed, so necessarily innocent people are killed, and wounded, and have their families or communities destroyed.
You however, lack the humanity to comprehend such a thing. You are a product of a culture which has had the good fortune to fight it's wars on other people's front lawns for far too long. I bet the sootings at VT or whatever high school in whatever town grab your attention and elicit some sympathy, and some sort of shock that our fellow Americans do not (did you ever get all fired up on what type of "technology" any murderer in America used to kill people? I doubt it).
God, you are such a F U C K I N G D I C K to post something like that- ha ha to all of you who see these buildings exploding and wonder if somebody's kids are blown in half but still alive and bleeding to death while theiir parents watch- ha ha ha, looser "liberal friends".
I swear to God if you were standing right here in front of me right now, I'd knock some of those crooked teeth in your stupid ass redneck grin down your worthless inconsiderate racist throat.
I hope that karma is not just something some stoned monk once came up with, and I hope your karma rebate is to return in the next life and suffer like those for whom you have demonstrated in that post that you could give a rats ass about...
The only reason that Americans are over there fighting a "war"-
(though nobody can identify an enemy per se, so in fact we are simply occupying a country where the population does not want us to be, and we are doing that primarily because we want to establish and maintain access to their vast natural resources)
 is because people in this country are capeable of seeing war as you see it, and seeing people who do not look/act/speak/pray like them as being less human and less intristicly valuable.
I suggest that, if it is possible to somehow assign a value to an individual, many individuals in Iraq very likely have a greater intristic value than someone like you has...
bitches...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:44pm PT
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Mr Gonzo, is anything worth fighting for? You would not have sent Marines into Baghdad?
I wonder how many Frenchies, Germans, Dutch, Danes, would dsagree with you. Have you no idea the sacrifice of a United States Marine?
Don't sh#t on them, they join and fight for a reason. And Iraqi's, in time, will draw a tear for their liberators. Iraqis are already volunterring to fight with Marines in Afghanistan...yeah, Iraq's volunteering to help Marines in Afghanistan.
You're a sad sack, sorry, I try to be nice here, but....
How many other countries sacrifice their soldiers for the freedom of others? Canada, Poland, Denmark, Holland, Germany, Italy (Spaniards are pussies, they bailed).
Maybe we should just the the almighty U.N. decide everything. PUSSIES!!!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:45pm PT
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Sorry Matt, you're a fag!
Hey wanna climb with me and Kev on Saturday?
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:47pm PT
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I confess to sometimes fantasizing that those who fetishize violence fall prey to the same sorts of images they uphold in hopes for them to begin to see correctly.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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This was waaaaaaay too easy...
Too bad the climbing topics don't take off like this.
Ok, have at it...
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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nice try you degenerate-
but karma points don't reappear so easily as that.
blueguy-
i think you ought to learn more about the reasons the UN was established in the 1st place, rather than take the word of people who either lie to you or who have demonstrated that they are simply wrong about literally everything else...
(edit- what was the UN saying? they were saying that yes there is an issue, a problem, but we could not actually convince them that the best solution was to invade- and look who is wishing we'd listened to the UN? only about %70+ of the US population. so, whether or not we did it alone, the ability to convince the UN ispotentially by itself a valid test of the basis or rationale for the war- or are you still convinced that donald rumsfeld "knew where the WMDs were", but simply didn't want to let the UN in on it? ha ha ha... THE JOKE IS ON YOU!)
we are gonna drag you idiots to a better world if we have to do it while you are kicking and screaming.
and yes, by invading iraq we have perpatrated a crime that is orders of magnatude greater than 9/11 ever was, even if all the official stories are true.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Jun 11, 2008 - 05:08pm PT
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Upthread L had this to say: "We are no better than the terrorists, we just have shinier weapons."
Tell that to the mentally retarded children whose parents wrap them up in explosives and send them walking around public places until they see the opportune time to push the button on their cell phone.
Or how about the countless Iraqi women murdered by their brothers every year because they dishonored their fathers by allowing themselves to be raped. This continues no matter who is running the country. It's cultural.
I'm not saying we're perfect, or that we even should be over there, but we are better than terrorists.
Anyone who is still confused as to why Bushco chose Iraq should just look at a map. Maybe the light will go off in your head.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jun 11, 2008 - 05:39pm PT
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Bluering say:
"ECap, I think you're actually serious. Did you watch any video as to how much attention we pay to killing the target and not inflicting collateral damage? Are you just being disengenuous?"
Why is this so hard for you to understand? I served. I didn't have to watch videos to pretend I know something about it.
And BTW, it is really touching that you considered enlisting or policing our borders. I can't imagine the sacrifice involved in considering it.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
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Are we better than terrorists, Ksolem?
What about Abu Ghraib? The prisons at Bagram?
Those at Guantanamo? We're better than terrorists?
Waterboarding? Human rights violations?
The United States USED to be a beacon of freedom to the oppressed in the world. Not since shrub and his counterpart neocons took over. Anything goes. How about those mercenaries
from blackwater? Or Dyncorp?
How about those jerks from Halliburton/KBR--setting up electricity systems so they electrocute our own soldiers at their bases? Serving them untreated water?
Our government doesn't even send them into war zones with the proper protective armor.
And how many of our soldiers have been indicted for murder and rape of innocent Iraqi's?
And we're better than terrorists?
Surely you jest. . .
There, I feel much, much safer now.
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toomey
climber
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Jun 11, 2008 - 07:29pm PT
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El Cap 1, Bluering 0
Got your ass handed to you, ya' paper tiger.
Nice post EC. Thnak for your service.
Bluering, thanks for considering serving.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 07:30pm PT
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Would this be a good time and place to post some pictures of rainbows and kittens and puppies and little kids and stuff?
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Greg R
Trad climber
Castle Rock CO
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Jun 11, 2008 - 08:13pm PT
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All I see in those pictures is little boys and their toys.
"Kaboooom!"
Sad.
I like this picture better.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 11, 2008 - 08:17pm PT
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Ahh, how I love being a centerist in california - I get excuses to hate both the far left and the far right.
Minerals, think it will hit 200 by tomorrow?
Russ, I'm with you on your 29 palms reporting.
SteveW, I think my issue with your argument (well the discussion we were having) is more in your word choice. Uninhabitable isn't the case. And give me a break on the utilities, hospitals, etc
(ever wandered around borneo or cambodia? not to mention columbia) - there are many 3rd world places much worse off where people still live, perhaps more satisfied than we do here in all of our glory. Sure living in a war zone would suck, but the place isn't uninhabitable. Now if you want to debate about the aftermath of the war, will it be better over there, worse, the same, etc that might be an interesting discussion. If you want to say the war is wrong (or right) and debate that fine, but go at the heart of your issue.
I will concede the life expectancy point though....But hey the US isn't in the top of that pack anymore.
ok until tomorrow...
happy hunting (sorry I couldn't resist)
kev
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 08:18pm PT
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NavB
It's unfortunate--there have been way too many mistakes to study, say Vietnam, Haiti, Panama, oh, and how about our overthrow of the democratically elected prime minister in Iran in 1953? Guatamala, Nicaruagua, oh, my memory is faltering.
Oh yeah, the Bay of Pigs, the Tonkin Gulf, lemme see, I'm sure I can conjure up more nightmares of our wonderful administrations, from Eisenhower on.
Oh, and I feel much safer that we've farmed out a large percentage of our security to and intelligence to cowboys like
blackwater, dyncorp, and others. Much much safer.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 12, 2008 - 01:39am PT
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Some fool said, "El Cap 1, Bluering 0
Got your ass handed to you, ya' paper tiger."
I wanna how my ass was handed to me.
And ElCap, the only way you respect my opinion in military matters is if I serve? Does it matter where or how I serve? Does it have to be combat for my opinion to be valid?
I'm just asking where you're comin' from.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 12, 2008 - 02:46am PT
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Those photos and these type topics on an CLIMBERS' internet forum are a high quality statement of our times. Love it. Thanks for this one.
It is year 2008. Enjoy the wars. There are more to come, on schedule.
The humans remain deep in the intellectual dark ages, because even the climbers who could so easily learn the lessons offered by the mountains, cannot figure out how to ask the most basic QUESTIONS of their words and actions.
The climbers who say they oppose the obviously illogical wars support their national climbing organization that supports the Park Service $200 tax on the RIGHT to walk (climb) on public land (Denali), etceteras, going to the Treasury, and vote for the DemocanRepublicrat Regime that keeps funding the wars with tax money.
They could not identify a contradiction in their own actions if you handed them a dictionary and pointed to these words. And asking a question of a contradiction is vastly beyond their intellectual ability. When you get a society that dumbed-down, starting wars is a comparatively admirable trait.
The knuckle dragging military dolts who relish in blowing apart kids, based on the usual lies, might at least eventually learn from their abject stupidity, while the peace advocates who could have peace within a week will die of old age before they figure out that the knowledge of the process is learned by asking questions of their prior failures.
Best comedy on the rock.
DougBuchanan.com
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 12, 2008 - 03:38am PT
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Useful info....
One of the anti-war folks herein mentioned the word, "shame".
Easy to verify this...
The first result of a normal human mind adopting the use of, or acquiring the perception of, institutional power, is the loss of the synaptic chemicals or neuron routing that identify shame, or the recognition of a damaging contradiction created by the same mind.
Wars, lying politicians, everything done by lawyers, Park Service rangers, and all other institutionally effected damaging contradictions could not otherwise exist.
PTSD and many such mental frustrations (on a gradient) are nothing more than the human mind attempting to synthesize significant contradicting data through neuron routings that cannot be re-activated with common data, by design, and thus compound self-damaging contradictions faster than circumstances can mitigate.
Amusingly, military and other government doctors and psych's cannot effect or explain the easy solution for PTSD because their own institutions create the contradictions that their own minds cannot identify or resolve or they would have already abandoned their institutions. And the minds of military chaps (victims of government) were taught to recognize nothing outside institutions.
An astute reader might recognize in the above why no institutionally effected contradictions can ever be resolved by any institution, but can be by an independent mind having learned the lessons taught by the mountains which function with humans in regard to flawless individual logic, void of any possible persuasion by even the most powerful human institutions.
So did you want to kick ass like some mental midget school yard bully who might never grow out of his illusion of power, or learn knowledge useful for therefore unlimited adventures?
Your choice will be appreciated by those enjoying the comedy.
DougBuchanan.com
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Blight
Social climber
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Jun 12, 2008 - 07:10am PT
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There will always be people who, like the OP, think that other people will fold, break and run away if we just bomb them enough, torture them enough, abduct and imprison them enough or invade and occupy their country and steal what is theirs.
Because cowards always believe that other men are cowards too.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 12, 2008 - 08:41am PT
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So Minerals, did you start this thread in order to get up some peoples' (liberals) noses? Sort of infantile, isn't it?
You must be bored with a lot of time on your hands to post all of that.
Sigh, I wish I was on the dole with time and money to spend.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jun 12, 2008 - 11:02am PT
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Whatever makes your little willy tingle Minerals...
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jun 12, 2008 - 11:15am PT
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Minerals. nice Post! Love those war hero's.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 12, 2008 - 11:33am PT
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Yo Doug,
You stated somthing about how this troubles you '...on a CLIMBERS' forum...' If you really felt that way then why did you espouse a different view on Chris Mac's annual thread about OT posts? Hmmm seems a little wishy-washy to me!
Ahh inconsistency is the hallmark of BS though.
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toomey
climber
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Jun 12, 2008 - 01:30pm PT
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bluering: "i wanna know how my ass was handed to me"
Her'es how:
El Cap sez to you: "I didn't have to watch videos to pretend I know something about it."
you don't have to have served in the military to be respected for your opinion.
unless you come off like some video game warrior or mall ninja.
unless you are reckless with the lives of those real soldiers you say you support.
In texas we have a saying: Big Hat, No Cattle.
You come off like that.
thanks again for consdiring to serve.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 12, 2008 - 01:47pm PT
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Yo Kev
You asked aboout uninhabitability.
Consider the tons of depleted uranium spewed everywhere. If that and poison water isn't a problem for you then I suggest you and your family move there. Plenty of cheap land for
redevelopment.
Oh I am sure for you that DU is only problematic when it shows up as Gulf War Syndrome in OUR boys and GIRLS.
What a tool!
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L
climber
The right side of the tracks but in the wrong town
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Jun 12, 2008 - 02:42pm PT
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"Or how about the countless Iraqi women murdered by their brothers every year because they dishonored their fathers by allowing themselves to be raped. This continues no matter who is running the country. It's cultural.
I'm not saying we're perfect, or that we even should be over there, but we are better than terrorists."
It's interesting Kris that you only take offense with one line in my post--my opinion that we've become the terrorists in Iraq.
You don't argue about the murdered men, women and children, the families torn apart for all time, the mutilated bodies that are still breathing, the homes obliterated, the mom-n-pop businesses destroyed, the quality of life reduced to a horror show, or refuge camps and slow death by starvation and/or disease.
You pointed out that terrorists attach bombs to children and then blow them up, which is a truly heinous act--I absolutely agree. How many times has this happened? 10? 20? 30? And the media sensationalizes each and everyone of them, because it is horrible.
Do you have any idea how many of those cellphone bombs would have to be detonated to get into the realm of child-deaths that our weaponry has inflicted? I'm thinking it would take more than 30, more than 100, more than 1000. A lot more.
Your post makes it clear you despise certain aspects of the culture in Iraq, and I totally agree with you there. Any sort of human or animal abuse is repugnant to me, as it should be to any compassionate person, be they well-educated or not, be they from the USA or not.
But to endorse the slaughter in Iraq as a way of wiping out that cultural barbarianism is not a rational response.
First of all, it isn't going to work that way. Those sorts of changes have to come from within the country itself, brought about by people who see the wrongness of it. Imagine if Canada were a military Super Power, and it decided to invade the United States to wipe out incest (we have a regrettedly high incident rate of that horror everywhere), or the prostitition slave-trade. I mean, seriously, how ludicrous would that be?
We're so focused on clawing the eyelash out of the rest of the world's eye, and we have all this putrid stuff blinding our own. You suggest looking at Iraq's location so "the light might go on" about Bushco's plans. Well, I suggest you look at who's making money on this war...perhaps your own light needs a flick.
And Bluering--Shame on you for pulling that anti-Marine card! That is so beneath someone we all consider a friend.
Not a person here has attacked the men and women carrying out their orders in that gawdawful conflict--any sane person knows the Marines do what they're told to do, by the Commander in Chief and his power-crazed handlers. The Marines are a group of incredibly patriotic Americans who are simply cogs in the wheel of destruction.
It's the monsters driving the bus and bleeding the American public that need to be outed and impeached/prosecuted/sent to prison where they can wear orange jumpsuits and become Billy Bob's girlfriend.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 12, 2008 - 02:47pm PT
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Stirring the pot more,....
Back at you Philo,
'tons of depleted uranium...' HMMMMM got a source on that.
Tons seems like an awful lot to me. How do you prove that.
Can you support that claim with reliable unbiased sources???
I'm sorry - it's just that all this unsupportable spray and speculative BS grows annoying. Sorry but I must play devils advocate. Don't make statements that you cannot backup. Please site source for your claims. I'm not saying it is or isn't happening, but I'm tired of the BS unsupported arguments.
Also aren't you taking this a bit seriously, name calling and all. It is really amusing to be called a tool though.
And for all of you who know me, who knew I had sooo much troll potential :) Hell it looks like I'll manage to climb 4 of 7 days (outside) this week and still have time to troll!
smiles
kev
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 12, 2008 - 02:58pm PT
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^^^
that is an example of an American not wanting to believe what America has done, is doing.
"TONS" is NOTHING
do you have any idea how much weaponry and amunition we have deployed to iraq since 2003?
then go back and include what was used in the 1st gulf war-
you have a problem w/ "TONS"?
i say you have tons of unused brain cells pal
but it's really not your fault-
you are like all of us to some degree-
you cannot conceptualize what is going on, what has and what will go on, because we do not fight our wars on our own front lawns, and we only understand what is on tv...
"TONS"?
tons is nothing kev, nothing at all.
do some googling of your own and learn what you are paying for, rather than object that another poster doesn't document the obvious.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Jun 12, 2008 - 03:13pm PT
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" ...But to endorse the slaughter in Iraq as a way of wiping out that cultural barbarianism is not a rational response... "
Actually, Laura, I was quite careful not to endorse the slaughter in Iraq. I have stood against this war since the very first hints by Bushco that it was in the works. And I am no fan of GWB and his crackpots who have been so poorly running the show for 8 long years.
I still think we are better than terrorists though, and our Supreme Court re-affirmed my feelings on that issue yesterday.
Also, I appreciate your statement of respect for our military folks. Of course then you must understand that our troops do not as a rule engage in the kind of wholesale murder of innocents which the terrorists do as a policy?
10, 20, 30 suicide bombings? Where do you get your numbers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombings_in_Iraq_since_2003
" ...Determining the exact number of suicide bomber attacks in Iraq is a nearly impossible task. Attacks are so frequent that the global media no longer bother to investigate each attack.... " etc...
Just a friendly disagreemnent - I am not into internet flaming. Hope you are well, Kris.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jun 12, 2008 - 03:34pm PT
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Bluering said: Did you watch any video as to how much attention we pay to killing the target and not inflicting collateral damage?
Exactly, I completely agree. Now think this through, if you please. We are perhaps waging the most "accurate" warfare ever waged, and yet the horrors that we produce are horrendous. So, okay, such is war, there's simply no getting around it.
The conclusion I draw from this is simple. We should enter into war only as an absolute last resort.
The fact that the Bush administration did exactly the opposite in Iraq is their biggest crime against the USA and the world.
GO
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 12, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
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Matt you still don't get my point!
Where can you find accurate scientific data to support your claim. HAHAHA you said to use google! So I did and look at this little gem below. See you can find claims supporting most things on the web. I'm just trying to urge the right and left wing ranters out there to actually state things that they can support. And even better support with unbiased sources. I am not stating that the below is or isn't unbiased just calling you on your google BS.
"What do Other Organizations Say About the Health Effects of DU?
Scientific agencies outside the DoD and the VA have reviewed the evidence and determined that DU posed minimal risk to human health. The Department of Health and Human Services’ Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, the RAND Corporation, the Institute of Medicine, the United Kingdom Royal Society, the European Commission, and the World Health Organization have all completed studies and concluded that there is no evidence that DU causes cancer.
NATO reported no relationship between exposure to DU in Europe and health problems potentially attributable to radioactivity. The organization stated:
*
To date, none of the nations or international organizations has reported finding any indication that would suggest a current threat to human health caused by radioactivity at any of the sites tested. http://www.nato.int/du/docu/d010523e.htm
The United Kingdom has stated that there is no reliable scientific or medical evidence to link DU with ill health of veterans of conflict in either the Persian Gulf or Balkans, or of people living in these regions. Many independent reports have been published and have failed to detect a relationship between DU exposure and illness, and none has found widespread DU contamination sufficient to impact the health of the general population or deployed personnel. http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/HealthandSafety/DepletedUranium/DepletedUraniumAndHealth.htm
In a 1999 study conducted by the RAND Corporation, the authors stated: “(N)o evidence is documented in the literature of cancer or any other negative health effect related to the radiation received from exposure to depleted or natural uranium, whether inhaled or ingested, even at very high doses.”"
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 12, 2008 - 04:10pm PT
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"...have all completed studies and concluded that there is no evidence that DU causes cancer"
how long did they say that about smoking?
how long had DU been used in weapons?
so how long has exposure been documented?
since google will (apparently) offer you such diffinative scientific info:
what was/is the cause of gulf war syndrome?
we were discussing the use of the term "tons" (of DU) and i commented on your incredulous reaction to the use of that word.
you are now changing the subject...
(don't look away, look inside)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 12, 2008 - 04:42pm PT
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Quick google from
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9322.htm
"The US and UK troops in the attacks on Iraq that started on 21 March 2001 used DU weapons during the battles at various places in Iraq. The truth of the use of DU weapons by US troop was verified and admitted by Brigadier General Brooks in a press briefing on 26 March of the same year when he said, "DU bombs had been used."
Michael Kilpatrick, Deputy Director of Deployment Health Support in the Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs, at a forum at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology on 6 March 2004, said, "The Army fired and used from tanks and armored vehicle 24 tons or less of DU bombs, and the Air Force, 10 tons or less of DU bombs from A-10 planes. These, when combined, would be equivalent to 115 tons of metallic uranium.
Also, before the outbreak of the war, on 15 March 2003, in a press briefing at the Department of Defense, Colonel Naughton, stated that "Abrams tanks had been loaded with DU bombshells," and "so were A-10 planes" because "there was not other choice. Witnesses had repeatedly seen civilian facilities being targeted by A- 10 planes starting with Iraq's Planning Ministry during the aerial bombing of Baghdad. Report on the investigation conducted by Scott Peterson, as a matter of fact, corroborated the statement given by Colonel Naugton at the above-mentioned press briefing. Abrams tanks were the main battle tanks used in the ground assault of Iraq. It is, therefore, highly probable that aside from the facts already verified, the US Armed Forces has used in large quantity DU weapons, even exceeding the reported volume, in all areas of offensive operations in Iraq, even at densely populated areas, particularly Baghdad, Basra, etc."
...."3. Dreadful Negative Effects of Depleted Uranium Weapons on the Human Body
Once the uranium particles are inhaled into the body, the particles attach first to the trachea and the respiratory system. As the particles are practically insoluble, they are difficult to dissolve in the blood, and stay there for a long period of time. Eventually these clinging particles continue to expose the neighboring organs to radiation. By that, they cause the cell and the gene to go into some transformation, and cause cancers, leukemia, lymphoma, congenital disorders and defects. Then, gradually, they are absorbed into the blood and lymph, and cause various illnesses and damages to the whole body. Also, aside from inhalation, they get into the body and enter the bloodstream by oral ingestion and through wounds. This kind of very dangerous weapons are being diffused in large quantity all over Iraq by the US and British troops. Not only during the war, but also after the war, and an unimaginable length of time of 4.5 billion years hereafter, the people of Iraq will have to bear the burden of living in this vast polluted land and learn how to survive with this grim reality. The British and US troops, at the instance that they drop DU weapons, do not just snatch away precious lives but cause the Iraqis further and eternal miseries...."
"...During the Gulf War in January 1991, the US Armed Forces dropped 320 tons of depleted uranium weapons on Iraq. Since after the war, there has been a high incidence of strange phenomenon not seen in Iraq before the war. There have been several incidences of such phenomenon as several members of one family developing cancer, or one patient having several types of cancer, etc., cancer that spreads fast, the outbreak of infectious diseases due to fast spreading cancer, leukemia, aplastic anemia, and malignant tumor, and immunodeficiency, massive herpes, and herpes zoster pain, symptoms resembling AIDS, syndrome due to liver and kidney dysfunction, hereditary dysphasia (hereditary damage) due to gene defects. Children, especially infants, who cannot fight back and are blameless, have become the number one victims of this war. The southern City of Basra, which is near the battleground of the Gulf War, has been very seriously damaged, and according to a doctor at the Basra Educational Hospital, the number of people who have succumbed to cancer rose from 34 in 1988 prior to the Gulf War to the astonishing figure of 603 in 2001 that was 17 times larger...."
It's worth reading the whole link but didn't want to bomb it all here. Iraq is screwed for thousands of years in many places due to our DU bombardment.
peace
Karl
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 12, 2008 - 04:46pm PT
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Karl, I'll look at your post tomorrow. Thanks for actually having what appears to be citations!
I'll have to get back to you guys tomorrow, i'm off to go play on some sandstone....Someones gotta do it - the rock doesn't climb itself.
kev
Ok i'm editing this before I go.
Matt, that was my point it's easy to find whatever you want on the web. I'm not claiming that my quote is accurate (it came from a gov site so of course it's biased), just that the suggestion that I should google something and accept it as accurate.
It's the same thing with the global warming issue. People on the right see it one way (they claim it isn't happening) people on the left claim that the earth is about to fall apart. Truth be the information we have is based on relatively few years of data and models involving complex mathematics (read as Navier Stokes plus other beautiful uglyness). It's clear that something is changing, how, why, is it normal or not, what the consequences are, etc, are all different question. But people still claim they are right when they truely don't know.
Don't get me wrong - covering ones ass until the problem is understood would be wise, but saying X or Y is happening when we really don't know is crap. Just like making unsupportable claims is crap. The problem with many arguments here is that, at least in the scientific areas, there isn't consensus about what is going on. Sure DU might be really bad and so until that is understood perhaps it should be avoided in general but to claim that it is bad when there is plenty of conflicting info about it is wrong as well.
I believe that the uninhabitable claim is wrong (notice I said believe, and I have NEVER stated an opinion about whether I agree or disagree with the war, also perhaps to do this properly we need a few definitions so we are all talking about the same things). I do not have the time or energy to devote to researching this. I am tired of are people making claims that they cannot support or don't support. It's like talking to a bunch of used car salesmen. If you tell me something controversial you'd better be able to convince me to believe you with overwhelming respected evidence and analysis.
My gripe about 'tons' was it was yet another claim being tossed around. You said I switched from tons to DU, and yes I did because if it was tons of non DU shell you wouldn't have had a problem with the environment so your issue was actually with the DU, neither of which did you give me any reason to believe are you an expert nuclear energy or weapons? I doubt it so you need to support your claims. Why not try to convince people about that which you believe rather than spray blindly about it's truth???
ok now i'm gonna climb
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L
climber
The right side of the tracks but in the wrong town
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Jun 12, 2008 - 04:54pm PT
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Heeeeyyy Kris,
Did it sound like I was flaming you??? My sincerest apologies if it did! I get a bit passionate about things like killing people and animals, and stupid wars which no one wins, but I had no intention of starting a war right here. :-) Especially not with someone I like quite a lot.
My point in responding to your post was this: We "foreign interests" are there in our tanks and uniforms, with supposedly "God on our side", doing all these great things that are supposed to help Iran become a democracy, and people are dying. The terrorists, who actually lived there before all this strife, are there in their rags doing what they think they need to do to get their country back, and people are dying.
When the end result is so many people dying, and there's so much confusion as to why, is it really that easy to label one good and one bad?
I mean, Americans were "terrorists" before the war that gave us our independence.
Anyhoooo, no disrespect meant. Hope all is well over on your side of the mountains.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 12, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
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L writes: doing all these great things that are supposed to help Iran become a democracy
a slip L? or a look into the crystal ball?
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L
climber
The right side of the tracks but in the wrong town
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Jun 12, 2008 - 04:59pm PT
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Russ, Russ, Russ....You don't wanna climb in that OW, do ya? :-)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Jun 12, 2008 - 05:36pm PT
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Heeeey Laura,
I felt flamed knott. Just wanted to avoid escalation. Oh, and things are going reasonably well on my side of the mountains...
But of course just to keep it interesting I must point out that Americans did not use children as suicide bombers against British civilians during our revolution. Of course the history of those times is blemished by that slavery business (but we found our way out of that too in the end.)
I still have hope for USA (and knott beause god is on our side, either.)
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L
climber
The right side of the tracks but in the wrong town
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Jun 12, 2008 - 06:01pm PT
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I'm with you, Kris.
I love this place. I've lived overseas and still think this is the best place on Earth...with so much potential for doing good.
A little OT, but I've been wondering how you're doing since the brain-thing. Sounds like miracles are/were happening in your life right and left.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Jun 12, 2008 - 06:15pm PT
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Thanks L.
It's kind of weird having something be so seriously wrong and at the same time feeling so very fortunate. Lucky me! After some of the news I was getting this time last year compared to how things are turning out now, I feel a bit like someone who got dragged out in front of a firing squad and the f*ckers all missed :-)
I am jamming right now to get packed up for another climbing escapade, but if your ST email is good, I'll send you a little synopsis of the whole thing in a few days...
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L
climber
The right side of the tracks but in the wrong town
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Jun 12, 2008 - 06:32pm PT
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It's good, Kris. Would love to hear.
Cap'n...just for you:
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again, y'all
War, huh, good God
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
Ohhh, war, I despise
Because it means destruction
Of innocent lives
War means tears
To thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
And lose their lives
I said, war, huh
Good God, y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again
War, whoa, Lord
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
War, it ain't nothing
But a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
Ooooh, war
It's an enemy to all mankind
The point of war blows my mind
War has caused unrest
Within the younger generation
Induction then destruction
Who wants to die
Aaaaah, war-huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it, say it, say it
War, huh
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again y'all
War, huh, good God
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War, it's got one friend
That's the undertaker
Ooooh, war, has shattered
Many a young mans dreams
Made him disabled, bitter and mean
Life is much to short and precious
To spend fighting wars these days
War can't give life
It can only take it away
Ooooh, war, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again
War, whoa, Lord
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
Peace, love and understanding
Tell me, is there no place for them today
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way
Ooooooh, war, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
You tell me
Say it, say it, say it, say it
War, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Stand up and shout it
Nothing
Are we back on course now? ;-)
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 12, 2008 - 06:32pm PT
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Nice stuff, as usual, Karl.
I'd believe the right wing Rand corporation about as far as I could throw them. What is it about 'there's lies, damn lies,
and statistics'.
Rand Corp is great with statistics.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 12, 2008 - 08:12pm PT
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Kev said " I do not have the time or energy to devote to researching this. I am tired of are people making claims that they cannot support or don't support".
So let me get this straight you want unbiased documentation yet you forward thouroughly biased documentation. You want all of us to do your research but you don't want to take time to do it yourself.
That sounds like a tool in my book.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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Jun 13, 2008 - 12:44am PT
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3 cheers for the red white & blue, Send all dune coons to hell.
Dogtown.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 13, 2008 - 12:51am PT
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originalpmac
Trad climber
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Jun 13, 2008 - 12:55am PT
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"dune coons?!!!" you racist f#ck! Why not send all the black people while we are at it, maybe some mexicans, italians, f*#k it some chinese, they are all different, f*#k em. No wait let me rephrase, f*#k you.
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Sfinney
Trad climber
New Zealand
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Jun 13, 2008 - 02:43pm PT
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Dear Bryan,
I had the pleasure of meeting your wonderful and amazing LATE great uncle- NED Gillette. I truly don't believe that he would have approved! God rest his soul- he did not deserve his fate, nor do the Iraqi people deserve this fate.
To answer Matt comments- "You must be a rich fat white American with little or no exposure to people of color, people of other cultures, people of other religions, etc.
(I really feel sorry for you (and the poor white trash family/community that you no doubt come from), all you get to appreciate in this world is whatever it is that you know something about already, but not all the wonderful things and peoples and cultures and traditions that you know little or nothing about)."
Yes, unlike most of us how have had to WORK are entire life, pay mortgages and raise future rope guns! Bryan has lived a true TRUST FUND life, the Gillette family trust. Born and raised in a VERY affluent area. NED Gillette, choose to Explore and meet the wonderful people and challenges in this beautiful world.
Bryan wallows in these VERY ugly, distorted views, in his shallow world. OPEN up your eyes and heart Bryan, and go live life.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 13, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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Russ, I don't know where you find that stuff, but I betcha that's what Riley looks like during an Obama speech!
hilarious.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 13, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
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let's see, i wonder what the odds are of that poor fat kid being the offspring of some middle american conservative type vs. some left wing vegan hippie...
edit-
hey no kiddin, i didn't know that about mr. minerals.
say, if i take back all the honest things i said about you up thread, you think i could score a couple of week long ski passes for vail next season? hook a brotha up?
...how about some free razors at least?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 13, 2008 - 03:11pm PT
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why don't you return phone calls?
=)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 13, 2008 - 03:19pm PT
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Fatty wrote
"Karl,
Hate to challenge a few of your facts, but...............thats tons of bombs, not necessarily the amount of DU. Much of the weight of a bomb is not DU. Better find a more acurate source. "
Come on Fatty, you're Happy to challenge my facts (which are enough to give folks an idea of what's up) Show us your own facts if you think they'll make a difference.
DU is super heavy and added to these bomb cause it's super dense and helps punch through armor and bunkers. My facts are enough to establish the question that indeed TONS of DU has been dropped on Iraq, and that it's radioactive (at low levels but in micro-inhaleable levels) for millions of years.
Peace
karl
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 13, 2008 - 03:23pm PT
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and that it's radioactive (at low levels but in micro-inhaleable levels) for millions of years.
Karl you are so full of crap your eyes must be brown:
http://www.ccnr.org/decay_U238.html
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 13, 2008 - 03:54pm PT
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Just trying to keep some facts in here. When a guy is off by 1000X+, you'ze just gots to call him on it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 13, 2008 - 03:58pm PT
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Hey Russ
I'm full of crap but I don't see where your link show me any crappier than I already know. (ps, when's the sh#t-talker's convention?)
Steve's link gives some good info.
Where's the "Support our Troops" crowd when it comes to protecting them from being poisoned by our own weapons? (the poison of which we don't really need to use cause we have such military superiority to start with)
You'd think after Agent Orange and Gulf War Syndrome that ya'll would trust the official government line (everything is safe and OK) a little less. Don't conservative believe in not blindly trusting government?
Funny how the troops are heros when they are out fighting for our government's lies and greed but once they come back sick and maimed, all of a sudden they are welfare sucking parasites on our system in the eyes of those same people.
More shame
peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 13, 2008 - 04:01pm PT
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Edit: Russ, I was aware, actually, that the DU is radioactive for 4 billion years or so but just toned it down a bit to be well within anybody's idea of how long the stuff is radioactive.
After all, if the human race is even around a million years from now, I assume we'll have transcended the violence and destructive crap we're up to now.
Military technology and DNA biotechnology is almost to the point now where if Humans don't find a way to make peace with each other, we're doomed within a few decades as any country will have access to cheap and deadly bioweapons that could kill us all.
There is no option. We have to wake up or die.
Peace
karl
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jun 13, 2008 - 08:12pm PT
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Wow, it’s amazing how easy it is to evoke such tremendous emotion from something as simple as a series of war photos. And I didn’t even post any blood. What is more amazing is how some of you choose to take this to a different level… a level of personal threats and bringing my family into something that has nothing to do with them. Oh well, what more would I expect when dealing with humans. Maybe some of you “liberals” are not as peaceful as you think you are… or maybe you are just human, like all of the rest of us.
I’ll be back… when I have more time.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 13, 2008 - 10:04pm PT
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it wasn't the photos you posted, but your own words that made an ass of you, for all the world to see, liberal and conservative alike. the one guy that posted about you being some sort of trust funder may just as easily have been a well traveled conservative- an interest in the lives of others is not something upon which liberals have a monopoly, just ask the little girl from china that fatty adopted.
edit-
btw, looking back at this thread, it doesn't seem that anyone's reaction (mine included) upset you until your TF status was outed, LOL, mr. gilette!
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 14, 2008 - 05:48am PT
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Kev my good friend, for the consideration of all.....
If I had written something about how this thread troubles me on a climber's forum, you would have seen the words in the first part of this sentence, written by me.
But you did not see those words written by me. They were written by you. I said (wrote) "Love it. Thanks for this one."
I thoroughly enjoy the unfettered diversity of comments by climbers on SuperTopo, especially the war stuff since I once displayed the zenith of abject stupidity by being a US Army airborne ranger aviator infantry officer in Vietnam.
Humans are capable of learning how primitive they are, much to their inordinate amusement. Would you not agree?
Unlike the vast majority of Americans, the words I use hold their meanings. Therefore they are rarely understood by people who train their minds to use words in constant contradiction to their meanings, like George Bush creating peace and security by starting wars, and sincerely believing himself, or Kev suggesting that I am troubled by what I state that I enjoy.
Easily advance your knowledge beyond the other guy. You train your mind by the words you use, by design. Start practicing using words that hold their meanings. This means you will find yourself often correcting your hastily worded statements. Do so. You do not care about the other guy. He must learn on his own. Your goal is to train your own mind to discover advanced knowledge by recognizing from accurate statements what fools do not learn because they rarely invest the time to form accurate statements.
Now I gotta go check on the paint that is drying in the Alaskan Alpine Club HQ utility room. Putting in a new water softener. That required new plumbing. One thing led to another. Painted the walls. Maybe some wine will make the paint dry faster.
DougBuchanan.com
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 14, 2008 - 06:02am PT
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Unlike the vast majority of Americans, the words I use hold their meanings.
Doug, I usually like your posts, but the above statement strikes me as being presumptive, in the least, if not arrogant, judgemental and perhaps even egotistical, which you strike me as not being.
BTW, I think drinking red wine helps paint dry faster than drinking white wine.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Jun 14, 2008 - 10:31am PT
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Doug, perhaps the stoic Marcus Aurelius was thinking along the same lines in simpler terms:
" The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts: therefore, guard accordingly, and take care that you entertain no notions unsuitable to virtue and reasonable nature."
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Jun 14, 2008 - 01:07pm PT
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I went out last nite to this cool taco and beer stand right off base. It was a blast and everyone in my platoon was there, having a great time. Mostly a bunch of kids who really have no idea that a large percentage of them will not be alive in a few short months. Some of them act like its no big thing, what we're doing, even though we get told, yes, you're the medic and your a great target. Some of the "training tools" invlove great pictures of the injuries that our soldiers sustain. Its ugly, and yes, I do intend on returning from deployment and heading straight to the shrink.
as for the larger political picture, I have no strong opinion, really. It is what it is. Do I want war? no. right now its my job though and while I may personally not want to kill anyone (hey, I want to put them back together!) I would if I had to. No second thought, no second guess, you're dead. I could ramble on forever about this.
minerals, you are just JEALOUS! Yes, fired the M249. its heavy though- I like that picture of all the marines running with them, especcially the guy shouldering it! baddass.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 14, 2008 - 01:24pm PT
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Michelle writes:
Mostly a bunch of kids who really have no idea that a large percentage of them will not be alive in a few short months
Not buying it... do you have any real data to back up that statement? What is your definition of "large percentage"?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 14, 2008 - 01:38pm PT
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yeah, how would she know russ, she's right there among them, so she'd have to what, open her eyes and look around?
just whom are you thinking does the fighting and the dying?
granted there are plenty of national guardsmen not presently available to dig out from the floods in the midwest these days, but i would say that description, as a generalization, holds some water.
take a look and see for yourself:
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 14, 2008 - 01:49pm PT
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Thanks Matt. I was asking Michelle.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 14, 2008 - 01:54pm PT
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hmm, is that what you were doing?
it appeared from here that you were telling her she didn't know with whom she has been working...
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 14, 2008 - 02:00pm PT
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Sorry Matt, those are two direct questions for Michelle. You can reread it if you have to.
Say, don't you have a Code Pink thing to run along to today?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jun 14, 2008 - 02:32pm PT
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"I swear to God if you were standing right here in front of me right now, I'd knock some of those crooked teeth in your stupid ass redneck grin down your worthless inconsiderate racist throat.."
Matt-
I've known Minerals for a long time. Long enough to know that he doesn't need anyone to defend him. However your response moved me to comment.
My views are about 180 degrees away from his. I do not approve of violence in any form and told him so, on the phone, in a private conversation. While his post was extremely distasteful to me, it is his right to post, as it is yours and mine, anything he wants. (and cmac's right to decide, not yours or mine, what's appropriate for this forum).
You're known here as a vocal and passionate advocate for the left/liberal/peacenik agenda. I'm in agreement with most of the views you espouse but I would urge you to consider how threatening someone with physical violence because their views are counter to yours represents that agenda. It's ironic, in my opinion and very, very Bush-like behavior. What exactly are YOU advertising?
(as an aside; anyone with any martial arts experience/common sense knows it is foolish and perhaps deadly to instigate or escalate conflict. One never knows who one is talking to. I know little old ladies who can take out linebackers.)
As I said, Minerals needs no defense. But I will state that to my knowledge, he has never engaged in or threatened an act of violence against another human being. I've never known him to have any but the highest standards of integrity. Despite disagreeing with most all of his political views I consider him a brother. ( Do you have siblings Matt? you agree with everything they say and do? Do they still have their teeth?).
I suggest that Instead of tabulating the 'Karma points' of someone you obviously know nothing about, you might consider a peek at your own scorecard.
Then again, that's really none of mine or anyone else's business is it?
If, like our President, you stand behind your comments no matter what the facts are, please email for directions to my Dojo, I'd be happy to take a message for Minerals.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 14, 2008 - 05:00pm PT
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Ksolem, Patrick and the our eclectic SuperTopo colleagues......
Marcus wrote fine words, but they were only his words. Consider writing your own. They will teach your mind more because it will be thinking more as it slows down to write them. Quoting other people is a process to remain less knowledgeable.
And indeed the suggestion that the vast majority of Americans do not use words that hold their meanings sounds presumptive. Therefore, since one is always one of the masses and majorities of many things, question the suggestion with real questions.
Arrogant or otherwise, the suggestion is true. It was only learning its substance that created my incentive to escape it.
Notice the incessant comments on matters of the heart that reference the mind to therefore train it to perceive that the blood pump thinks. Notice the references to forcing those other guys to do things other than give them incentive to retaliate by design of the mind.
To confuse the mind's data routing process for one item of data, makes it inefficient or ineffective for similar data routing.
One of the controlling concepts of advancing one's knowledge beyond the competition is learning how to ALWAYS use words that hold their meanings, to train one's own mind to accurately handle data, with the exception of referencing my good friends the National Park Pigs.
I was raised on a farm, and have a degree in wildlife biology, so I know that National Park rangers are not pigs, and therefore I occasionally apologize for slighting the good character of farmyard swine by equating them to Park Service personnel.
And indeed, the 2002 Horizon's Edge, On The Fence, Cabernet Sauvignon assisted well in the arduous paint drying task.
Therefore I am off to the next adventure. Stand back everybody, mistakes are being fomented with impunity.
Doug
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 14, 2008 - 05:21pm PT
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Doug.... why is that with every one of your posts that I read, I believe more and more that Dr. Bronner is still alive?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 14, 2008 - 05:34pm PT
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Russ why is it that with every post you make I think you are a total a$$ pipe?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 14, 2008 - 06:13pm PT
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Philo writes:
Russ why is it that with every post you make I think you are a total a$$ pipe?
start a new thread for your love fest of me ya Eldo Prancer.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 14, 2008 - 07:07pm PT
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my email reply to WI :
you are right, but i wrote it, and i was feeling exactly that way at that moment, so it was nothing if not honest. in that way i do indeed stand behind it.
people that know me will attest that i am not a violent guy.
best,
-matt
mr gillette-
my apologies, especially if you felt truly threatened (of which i would be skeptical).
let's just say i didn't see the humor in your commentary, and i still don't.
despite the way it may sem if you live in a place like reno-
white peoples' sadness is not the only sadness that counts-
unless you use fauxnews as a meter of such things!
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 14, 2008 - 07:45pm PT
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Yoooo Russ.....
Having not met the good Doctor B, and there being 6.67 billion people, a modicum beyond by ability to know of them, and perhaps the same for other SuperTopo colleagues, precisely what might cause your comment that you might wisely question to insure its accuracy so that I might benefit from the knowledge you offer?
Doug
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 14, 2008 - 08:00pm PT
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hahahaha! Welcome good Dr.!
Not sure what you were asking in that last one 'cause I'm kinda dumb and I think you were talking over my head?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 14, 2008 - 08:08pm PT
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Hey Russ thanks for the witless response.
First off, though I currently live in the peoples republic of Boulder, I am NOT an Eldo prancer. I spent most of my time in the Black Canyon. You know that place that makes Yosemite walls seem like pansy fests. I was doing 1st, 2nd & 3rd ascents of serious routes in the Black before most of the current crop of hardmen were pooping green and before most of the rest of other climbers ever dared venture there. I quess that makes me a Black Dancer.
My issue with your posts is that you seem to need to dump a steaming coiler on anyone who disagrees with your apparent America love it or leave it we are always right beliefs.
I was very offended by your crap response to Michelle's well reasoned post. I personally know many military people, friends and family, active and retired. Almost universally, once they get past the Rambo macho fest, they dislike what they are ordered to do. They would rather see diplomacy first and war only as a last resort. But I get the impression you would judge that to be cowardly appeasement.
Lastly I think you make some fine gear.
Carry on.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 14, 2008 - 08:25pm PT
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witless and disposable... Maybe I'll try harder next time you attack me.
I was very offended by your crap response to Michelle's well reasoned post
I'm not buying her story. Simple. I like the numbers to all be in a row and correct. Hopefully she can provide them. To me it sounded like a giant exaggeration. Now to flip the tables around, if one of the righties on here made a similar claim without solid fact checked numbers they would have boot up their asss within 30 seconds, especially when it is about our troops dying.
As for the steaming dump.... you lefties have the market cornered on that. The most vile posts come from the lefty camp around here. You getting upset with this post is laughable. And yeah yeah, we all know soldiers. I live in 29 Palms remember? They view out here is a little different than the one run up the Taco flagpole day after day.
Thanks for your resume too. Impressive.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 14, 2008 - 09:04pm PT
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Russ I have to admit it bothers me that you and several other STers seem unwilling to accept that some of what our goverment is doing is flat out wrong. Like no bid contracts going to charlatans whose work is so shoddy that American service men are electrocuted getting out of the shower. Does that not outrage you? Many of the actions of our government have caused more death and destruction than all the world's terrorists combined. But in your gung ho attitude you wouldn't believe that would you. And yeah not all our soldiers die. Mostly they are physically maimed, disfigured and crippled or destroyed by untreated PTSD. My dissent is a profound act of patriotism.
If that means I am a liberal leftist in your mind so be it. I prefer to view myself as a radical realist.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 14, 2008 - 09:46pm PT
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Philo, the world is admittedly an ugly place. If you wish to believe that the American Right is giant part of that evil, so be it. You can view yourself as whatever you wish, be it radical realist, patriot, or informed dissenter. It impacts me none. On a point by point audit, sure I can have outrage at the way some things are done. But I would at least like to know that what I am outraged about is in fact, outrageous, and not some agenda driven hyperbole skewed or invented to generate a predictable response.
Maybe someday your "people" will take the reins and right all the perceived wrongs of America. I for one am not holding my breath.
I think *we* are done here.
Klaus edit: I don't think so... would it matter?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 14, 2008 - 09:55pm PT
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What more facts do you need?
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Jun 14, 2008 - 09:56pm PT
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Wow Minerals, you really reeled ‘em in with that one - Good job!!!
It’s amazing how violent the peace-lovers get isn’t it?
Hey, do you still race district?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 14, 2008 - 11:14pm PT
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What a bunch of sh#t by the OP . . .
How many of you chicken hawks have been in the service of any branch for any time?
I have. US Army 2 years (the bare minimum at the time during peace time).
How many of you have talked to veterans of many different wars and heard their personal horror stories from WW2 all the way to the current fiasco in Iraq and Afganistan?
I have. My grandfather WW2 and many other WW2 grandfathers whom I haved talked to at length. I also talked to many Vietnam vets when I was in the service during the Reagan/Bush1 years, and my brother in law currently, who has seen many tours since he has been in the US Army the past 15 years. Generals are amazed at the number of ribbons and metals he has. He is just barely hanging on because it is all he knows. He has never worked in the civilian world. I'm sure he wanted to get out many times, but sees retirement not so far off. I hope he makes it.
Any soldier who sees real combat time will tell you that war sucks and it isn't ever pretty. They want nothing to do with it if they survive it when they get home. And it affects them in so many negative ways for the rest of their lives. Look at how many homeless are vets. And you know that those numbers are getting bigger now, if they don't commit suicide first.
How many of these vets are coming back home if they survive, and re-registering as Democrats because they know the truth now, and want this fiasco to end.
War only benefits the Miltary-Industrial Complex and no one else.
Watch the DVD: "Why We Fight," and get an education.
This was a very stupid OP. Sometimes ST can really, really stink.
You could have posted about minerals and geology but chose to celebrate the hatred for a people who didn't do anything and are having their lives and country destroyed. And like someone already mentioned, the half-life of DU is 4.5 billion years.
See, the MI-Complex will get the oil whether they want us there or not. Perhaps we will have to pump oil wearing hazemat suits and radiation exposure-detectors. But hey, oil is oil right?
The only people who celebrate war and brutality are those who have never been to war. Learn from their misstakes.
Or, go sign up right now and serve. Put-up or shut-up.
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Jun 15, 2008 - 12:23am PT
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wow.. someone got unnecissarily offended on my behalf. cool.
Russ, good question. First of all, I am not at basic training. I am referring to combat medics only. I don't have "hard" figures because they don't actually make that available, no matter what you think. My information comes from the people I know here (cadre, officers, retired enlisted) that have all been deployed. The "large" percentage averages around 30. That to me is large. Some say as much as 50. Yes, we all know people that are in the service. Living in a military town doesn't constitute service knowledge, however. Its runner beta at best.
what I like about this place is there is room for all opinions and to get pissed is kinda silly, but even that's funny.
edit: Klimmer - put up or shut up is right. FYI, I signed up to be of support to those that are fighting. I put my money where my mouth is and am contributing. and not just my opinion.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 15, 2008 - 04:33am PT
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In addition to their failure to accurately use words, which results in lifetimes of arguments with no substance beyond the errors of the words, the humans invent their enemies with words they never even think to later question, such as those dirtbag liberals and conservatives.
If the liberals and conservatives oppose each other, why do they always fund each other's wars, while fooling fools with rhetorical thrashings-about?
The liberals and conservatives are both authoritarians, mental midgets demanding that the other guy do as he is told by the idiot liberal/conservative central authority, or be jailed by police or killed by the military.
That the pot smoker is jailed this time and the gun owner jailed the next time anguishes only fools who support that process.
In contrast, the libertarians perceive that adults are sufficiently mature to make their own decisions, and should not be taxed to pay the police to put them in jail if they do not conform their decisions with the intellectually absent authoritarians who sank to government jobs.
So when you blame it all, or any part of it, on your liberal or conservative friends, their government police, prosecutors and judges will eagerly agree, and initiate a punitive government process.
And they still cannot figure it out. High quality entertainment.
Just give us one more war, or another oil spill. I promise I won't piss all the money away on climbing gear this time.
Doug
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Jun 15, 2008 - 10:46am PT
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Hey Riley. Yep, combat medic. Its funny because the official job title is "Health Care Specialist" which is misleading to some people. They actually thought they'd be working in a hospital! Sucks for them. Its titled that way to allow females in the job since we can't have combat jobs. We just finished the EMT training and took the NREMT (I did pass). Just started the army side of the training. Email me if you want more details and to compare notes.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 15, 2008 - 11:04am PT
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Michelle, thanks for your reply, and yes, 30 to 50% is a huge number. For Philos blood pressure, I'll even say it is an OUTRAGE! Hey, I think what you are doing is fantastic, and I'm not trying to get you on the spot or work you over in anyway... that is far from my intent. Be safe and I guess I'll just have to wonder about the numbers... hope you stay on the good side of the percentages.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 15, 2008 - 12:11pm PT
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Right on Michelle good for you.
and thhanks Russ I feel much calmer now.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 15, 2008 - 02:44pm PT
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best of luck to you michelle, keep your head down!
klimmer, nice post man.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 15, 2008 - 02:49pm PT
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Awesome Michelle, my good buddy's wife just finished basic and is entering special training as a medic.
Do it!
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Jun 15, 2008 - 09:18pm PT
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Russ, I didn't think you were trying to work me over at all. I'll try to get a better statistic, as I am interested too. Those numbers seem high and half the time I think its a scare tactic and the other half I believe it. I had a 'for real' conversation with one of my Drill Sergeants once and the story was grim. on a lighter note, I'm trying to get stationed at Fort Irwin so maybe I'll be seein' you at JT or RR. (good luck on getting the posting I want, I know)
bluering, do you know what Company your friends wife is in? all medic training is done here. Do you know about when she arrived or will be arriving? Funny thing too about it being a small world. There is a guy Im training with who incidentally is the cousin of someone I climbed with and knew in Arnold, CA. What a trip!
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 16, 2008 - 12:15am PT
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Michelle
I admire your pluck, and I hope you come home uninjured, and the same for everyone else over there in that godforsaken
pit that shrub put you all into.
Maybe, if we're all lucky, our congress (ha, I should say the congress of big money) will stop funding the war and force everyone to be brought back home.
We never should have been there. Shrub and all the rest of his
ducks should be imprisoned for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 16, 2008 - 12:25am PT
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Medics go where all the trouble is. In Vietnam the death rate was very high. One tactic they have used in Iraq is to set off a roadside bomb, injure someone, then set off another when the help arrives.
Stay safe Michelle, I send you my best wishes.
John
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 16, 2008 - 12:42am PT
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As of today, 4,091 U.S. soldiers had died in five years of war in Iraq. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/us/16list.html?_r=1&ref=worldspecial&oref=slogin Probably between five and ten times as many will have had injuries requiring hospitalization.
The armed forces certainly track things like fatality and injury rates per unit. It seems likely that they have a lot of statistics and analysis as to such matters.
Overall, several hundred thousand U.S. soldiers or more must have served in Iraq by now, some on multiple tours. Nominally that translates into about a 1% chance that any one soldier would have been killed, and a 5 - 10% chance of injury. It's clearly much more complicated than that - certain areas, units, and jobs may be riskier than others.
It's possible that the military and politicians aren't telling us everything, in that many deaths and injuries may in effect have been privatized, along with the related services.
As of last week, 85 Canadians had died in Afghanistan, out of a total of about 10,000 who have served at least one tour there.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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Jun 16, 2008 - 01:09am PT
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F*#king Peace Nick, Neo-hippies. get your own Culture.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 16, 2008 - 01:35am PT
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Moosie: Medics go where all the trouble is. In Vietnam the death rate was very high
The Army death rate for combat medics in Vietnam was around 3%, or almost 1100 fatalities in about 31,000 total deaths.
2% Combat Engineers
2% Armor
4% for Artillery
6% for Aviation
70% for Infantry
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 16, 2008 - 01:39am PT
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3 percent of total deaths, or 3 percent of medics?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 16, 2008 - 01:42am PT
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Vietnam FACT: MEDEVAC helicopters flew nearly 500,000 missions. Over 900,000 patients were airlifted (nearly half were American). The average time lapse between wounding to hospitalization was less than one hour. As a result, less than one percent of all Americans wounded who survived the first 24 hours died. (VHPA Databases)
That there is pretty impressive.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 16, 2008 - 01:49am PT
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Helicopters certainly changed survival rates of wounded.
3 percent of total means we would need to know how many medics served in country to know how dangerous that particular field was. I have a fair number of friends who served in Vietnam and they all have told me over the years that it was dangerous being a medic. They always have to go where the most intense shooting is, at least if they are a combat medic.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 16, 2008 - 01:52am PT
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"The Army death rate for combat medics in Vietnam was around 3%, or almost 1100 fatalities in about 31,000 total deaths."
I can't figure that out. Does that mean that 3% of all combat medics in Vietnam died, or that 3% of all those who died were combat medics?
Total U.S. deaths in the Vietnam War were about 58,200, with another 2,000 missing in action.
I wouldn't doubt for a moment that there's a pretty direct correlation between time spent on the front line and fatality rate. Somewhere I read that stretcher bearers in World War I, who were often conscientious objectors, had a high casualty rate.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 16, 2008 - 01:53am PT
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The numbers given on this site are reflected all over the web, so there is a chance they might be somewhat accurate:
http://www.landscaper.net/timelin.htm
Interesting stuff anyway... the MYTHS section is quite an eyeopener.
Mighty Hiker edit: as I understand it.... there were 31,000 total deaths endured by the Army.... 3% of those that died were combat medics, so you get 1100+/- dead medics out of the 31,000 total deaths. For all we know it could have been 100%, if none were left......
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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Jun 16, 2008 - 02:12am PT
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243 Medal of honor winners Vietnam.Medics made up more of these ranks than any other duty.
My brother was a Dust Off pilot Vietnam, shot down a bunch very dangerous.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 16, 2008 - 02:26am PT
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Thanks, Russ. Had another look at the figures. About 38,200 Army deaths, 14,840 Marines. The source is wikipedia, but they cite the U.S. National Archives as the source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#United_States_Armed_Forces
The National Archives site has a lot of information, at http://www.archives.gov/research/vietnam-war/casualty-statistics.html, as does the Department of Defence site - http://siadapp.dmdc.osd.mil/personnel/CASUALTY/vietnam.pdf
The latter notes 30,963 hostile deaths in the Army, but another 7,261 non-hostile deaths (presumably accidents and illness) and 561 MIAs etc. I'm pretty sure that's typical of the military - there are a significant proportion of non-combat deaths, but they're on active service, and it's part of the territory. (My uncle was one such, in 1945.)
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 16, 2008 - 02:40am PT
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Here is an interesting fact I heard today.....
More Marines now die in motorcycle accidents while off the base, than in combat each month in Iraq.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 16, 2008 - 03:35am PT
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i wonder if more die each month by suicide (relating to PTSD) than in combat?
wonder where you heard that stat?
(gee, maybe from somebody who was trying to make iraq sound "safe"?)
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jun 16, 2008 - 10:58am PT
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Those are normally all effective tools when not wielded by treasonous and incompetent cowards who had all evaded the draft so no nothing about military operations. Further, they have undercut returning Veterans at every single opportunity, squandered our military might, corrupted the Constitution and balance of power, and handed Tehran and Beijing significant geopolitical advantage at the cost of about two trillion dollars. In 2000, OBL and the Chinese leadership couldn't have written a dream script for the next eight years this good.
Well worth repeating. I haven't even read all this thread, but I'll bet dollars to donuts no neocon apologist has answered this. They never do.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 16, 2008 - 11:08am PT
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Matt writes: wonder where you heard that stat?
(gee, maybe from somebody who was trying to make iraq sound "safe"?)
It is just a fact Matt. Live with it. It must just burn you up that more Americans aren't dying over there, huh?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 16, 2008 - 11:30am PT
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Russ said;
"It is just a fact Matt. Live with it. It must just burn you up that more Americans aren't dying over there, huh"?
See Russ it is comments like that I find so bothersome.
How can you make such an illogical connection?
Or are you just a trolling provacateur?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 16, 2008 - 11:36am PT
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or just an ass?
yes russ, that's exactly what i wish for every day.
i scower the web, just hoping to see young promising life extinguished.
...and all of you "to hell with brown people" types have all the patriotism wrapped up while we liberals just want to tax hard working simple folk like yourself while we live on the dole, do drugs, impregnate teens so we can buy them abortions, and help communist china prove that the soviets got raw deal.
edit- btw your lame statistic is, more than anything, a commentary on how FEW soldiers we actually have over there, relative to how many active duty personnel there are in total, (and you can ask the folks in iowa how using their national guard troops and equipment has impacted them in their time of need).
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 16, 2008 - 11:48am PT
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Well, you can also say every marine will die some day. So what?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jun 16, 2008 - 12:25pm PT
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philo:...Russ...are you just a trolling provacateur?
New to the Internets are you?
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 16, 2008 - 02:30pm PT
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Wow Russ,
You've really kept Matt going.
Russ have you ever thought of linking your buy Russ a beer link to a thread?
Also someone (a liberal not that that's a bad thing) called iraq
a 'godforsaken pit' and it seems to read as if they were implying it always was. If so, does that mean they think it was uninhabitable before we got there...
kev
Also why isn't the liberal crowd screaming about the Congo, and of course Lebanon, and what about Afghanistan? Any opinions on Columbia, Sri Lanka, and lets not forget our buddy Hugo...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 16, 2008 - 02:47pm PT
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""More Marines now die in motorcycle accidents while off the base, than in combat each month in Iraq."
Yeah, and we don't hear from the conservatives about invading Harley-Davidson do we? (maybe they've already taken over?)
Bikes don't kill people, Asphalt does!
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 16, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
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Karl,
That was funny. But we wouldn't invade Harley-Davidson, that's near England isn't it? But Kawasaki and Suzuki those guys are foreigners and we know what to do with them.
Wouldn't be surprised if we tried to legislate some BS. Most (all?) states have helmet laws. What's next helmet laws for climbing (don't get me wrong I almost always climb with one but would hate not to have the choice)
Wait that OT for this OT thread (OOT?)
kev
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 16, 2008 - 04:02pm PT
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"Wait that OT for this OT thread (OOT?) "
This thread is ready to go OT for OT cause the points have already been made.
Except that it's on-topic because invading the wrong people who didn't attack us is part of the problem. The Marines don't get to decide who to invade nor decide when they get to go home.
We have to elect and pressure our politicians to make those decisions with integrity. Getting it right should be a maximum priority for the Right and Left alike.
It's time for the Right to call their Spades, spades, kick out the neo-cons and get back to wise fiscal policy, freedom from Government meddling, and so on.
Peace
Karl
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 16, 2008 - 08:31pm PT
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Our soldiers patrolling Sadr City will be relieved to learn motorcycle riding is more hazardous then what they do.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 16, 2008 - 08:55pm PT
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Sadir City is patroled exclusively by the Iraqi Army with a few observer/instructors attached.
Suicide rates did increase.
By 16 people.
When compared to the same demographic suicides in the military are still significantly lower (17.3 versus 20.1)than the same civilian age group.
Also, 2/3rds of the suicides were by people that had never deployed to a combat zone.
You guys are clueless.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 16, 2008 - 09:05pm PT
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So TGT, do our soldiers patrol any hazardous areas?
And yes I consider observers/advisors in Sadr City to be exposed to the hazards.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 16, 2008 - 09:13pm PT
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What statistic did I use skip?
We do lose about 30 soldiers a month in Iraq right?
We won't count the many months we lost much more.
The civilian death rate for motorcycle riding is in the neighborhood of 30 for 100 million miles ridden.
Do you think a random sample of 160K of our solders in the US ride significantly more then 100 million miles a month?
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 16, 2008 - 09:18pm PT
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Yes, I count our observers/instructors as soldiers.
Don't you?
Now debunk my statistics.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 16, 2008 - 09:37pm PT
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Yes, I did. Since our soldiers have patrolled Sadr City in the past and have made major operations there.
Now do you think our soldiers in Iraq patrol any hazardous areas?
And I didn't think you could do the math anyway.
Considering the huge number of posts you make here, you've got plenty of free time.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 16, 2008 - 09:41pm PT
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Still waiting Skip.
Do our soldiers patrol any hazardous areas in Iraq?
Where do you think those 30/month are dying?
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 16, 2008 - 09:49pm PT
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Will do Skip.
Now learn some math.
And you still have not answered my question.
Do our soldiers patrol any hazardous areas? Where are those 30/month dying?
Its a pretty simple question and directly related to the topic. No math required.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 16, 2008 - 09:56pm PT
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Then you should have no problem debunking my statistics, Skip. Hop to it.
Still waiting, where do you think those 30/month are dying?
In the showers?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 16, 2008 - 10:16pm PT
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Skipt to the loo said; "I think you need to quit spending so much time with the transsexuals on Telegraph and get over to "Top Dog" for some truth".
How typical of you and your ilk. You demand documentation from us yet cannot answer our questions so you devolve into comments like the above.
And Skippy I call BS on your multiple degrees. If they are for real post them up or shut up.
And monolith they don't die in the showers but rather they get electrocuted when they step out of the shower owing to the shoddy work of Cheney's buddys' shoddy no bid contract work.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 16, 2008 - 10:27pm PT
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Skip, I'll take it you, with all those degrees, are unable to debunk the statistics I laid out and prefer to do a massive cut and paste job instead.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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Jun 16, 2008 - 10:29pm PT
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Yeah, this war sucks, and we should of never been over there in the first place.
But we are there and as long as we are there the troops need our love and support.
Heres a idea for all you neo-Hippies
Go down to the airport and spit on a few as their coming home after fighting for their country.
Tell them that their friend died for nothing, because the new president doesn't have the balls to finish the fight.
Tell the Iraqis that they are a part of Iran now like it or not.
Code pink Losers.
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Jun 16, 2008 - 10:37pm PT
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the EMT training ts standard national registry, taught by civilians. The combat medic side is what's tough. I just hope I'm not all ate up!
Do it Riley if its what you want.
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MisterE
Social climber
My Inner Nut
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Jun 16, 2008 - 10:41pm PT
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I don't always agree with Bryan, and boundaries have been pushed on many sides - the "where's Allah now, bitches", the severe outing (which I was as impressed as stunned by), and general vitriol - but I like that he knows how he is.
An exacerbator, gun-freak, trust-funder - whatever. I consider Minerals a friend...
BUT DAMN SON! You stirred up a hornet's nest this time!
Erik
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 16, 2008 - 10:49pm PT
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"Go down to the airport and spit on a few as their coming home after fighting for their country"
Everyone here understands that the troops are just doing what they need to do. No one advocates spitting on them.
It is supporting the troops to advocate for getting them out of an unjust war so that more of them wont die.
It is supporting the troops when we call bullsh@t on the government when they do not care for returning troops.
It is supporting the troops when we recognize that we are just creating MORE terrorist.
A NEO HIPPIE AND PROUD OF IT.
.....................
Skip, the article you posted above is so flawed, it is not funny. For one, Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq before we invaded. That fact alone negates more the half the article.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 16, 2008 - 10:55pm PT
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Iraq in review.
I haven't read the second one.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jun 16, 2008 - 11:00pm PT
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skipt and TGT, how come our soldiers AREN'T patrolling Sadr City?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 17, 2008 - 12:44am PT
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Al Sadr isn't actually boycotting the elections
from
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/15/AR2008061501868.html
"BAGHDAD, June 15 -- Aides to anti-American Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr said Sunday that although his movement will not field an official slate of Sadrist candidates in upcoming elections, it could support individual Sadrists running for office.
The strategy could be a way for Sadr to influence the provincial elections this fall despite moves by the Iraqi government to ban his movement from participating.
Sadrist leaders sought to modify statements made a day earlier that the movement would not take part in the local contests. They had previously said only that the movement would support slates of "technocrats and independent politicians," but on Sunday they said those candidates could well be Sadrists.
"If any Sadrist wants to participate in any one of those lists of the technocrats, we give him the permission to do it," said Salah al-Obaidi, Sadr's chief spokesman. "But we will not participate in the elections by putting our people on a list with a Sadrist title."....
FYI
Since the troops are there, we can support them by asking that we bring em back asap. This is a hell and it's not getting better. We've been hearing the "progress is rapid and the insurgency is on it's last legs" for years. They'll never accept our foreign presence and bases.
Perhaps we should just get honest and say we're friggin imperialists and they can do what they want as long as we control what we need to of the oil. That was the deal with Saddam anyway.
Peace
Karl
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 17, 2008 - 12:46am PT
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Hey Skip, I had baby gray squirrels running all over my property today. They are fun to watch.
"Defeating Al Qaeda now, no matter when they got there, has allowed us to show that they are nothing less than straight up thugs and killers. Even though many here at the taco stand try to say we are the same, the rest of the world just doesn't see it this way. "
I guess I see things differently. Yes, Al Qaeda is a bunch of thugs, but I don't think we have helped change anyones mind about them. In fact I think we have helped them recruit. We have killed many many innocent people. This will not be forgotten. Revenge is something that is accepted in the middle east. They may not be able to do much about their anger right now because they are weak, but all it takes is another Osama Bin Laben to come along to tell them he can show them how to get revenge, and then another crop of terrorist will arise.
And then we will be wondering why they are angry with us.
We wonder why the people of Iran are angry with us and some say it is because they are jealous of us. This is incorrect. They are angry with us because we helped overthrow a duly elected official and put in his place the Shah of Iran who turned out to be very brutal. We have a history of doing this. We did it in Iraq when we helped put into power Saddam Hussein.
"The change in the last year has allowed us to turn the corner in Iraq and fulfill that which so many (me included) had been saying for so long."
Any change in Iraq is a result of the fact that most people want to be peaceful but don't know how or don't have the power to create it. I think what this statement ignores is that terrorism is NOT done by the masses. It is done by the few. The few who are disenfranchised enough and angry enough to act.
So saying that attacking Iraq is helpful in defeating terrorism is lacking in foresight. Even if we manage to put in place a democratic society, which is highly unlikely in my opinion because the people did not work for it and so eventually it will devolve back into a feudal leadership, ...... even if we manage to do this, we still have to deal with all of the angry people we have created. People who are then susceptible to the leadership of someone like Osama Bin Laden. The Bin Ladens of the world never actually fight, they talk others into fighting. By attacking Iraq as we did, we helped create a larger pool for the Bin Ladens of the world to draw from.
The thing to understand is that these groups have never been all that powerful. Al Qaeda was a loosely knit group of radicals. They flew some planes into some buildings and killed a bunch of people. If you look at their history, most of their attacks have been small and done by only a few.
We can not defeat this with a military response. It will require better politics, politics that respect other nations and do not treat them as though we can take whatever we want, often times leaving them with big messes to clean up. Plus it will take more coordinated police work to ferret the worst offenders out. This may be backed up by military forces, but cruise missles just create more terrorist.
That takes time, but it will happen. You reap what you sow.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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Jun 17, 2008 - 12:51am PT
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So Skip;Should we stay and win this thing or get out?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 17, 2008 - 03:02am PT
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You guys are clueless.
well, i AM clueless about just how 130k+/- US troops are going to manage the turmoil when al the ethnic-cleansing victims/refugees are kicked out of the neighboring countries and 3-5 million homes and angry people are returned to iraq.
think they are going to want their homes back?
think they are just going to let bygones be bygones, or are they going to want to settle some scores?
(note: how you answer the above questions says much about whether or not you know anything about their culture, and whether or not you are just totally full of crap)
so let's see, who was kicked out of bagdad?
mostly sunis?
wonder if any of them will be turned into AQ or otherwise radicalized...
and about the plague of veteran suicides, having a clue is just a matter of being able to google it...
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5219
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/34718.html
http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=39958
ug
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Jun 17, 2008 - 09:02pm PT
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Riley, they teach us here to return fire first and then render aid. Is that part of your curriculum or do you find yourself reviewing scenarios that start with, "The lead vehicle in your convoy is hit by an IED.." or "You come upon a soldier who is bleeding profusely and is apneic, what do you do?"
edit: and you better be a good shot since you have to treat the enemy.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 17, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
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"and about the plague of veteran suicides, having a clue is just a matter of being able to google it..."
I wonder how many of those have to do with media/idiots that claim our soldiers are worthless civilian killers and puppets. They do a job, they take orders and perform. Even if you're against the decision to go to war, F_KING SUPPORT OUR TROOPS AND TELL THEM YOUR PROUD OF THEM!!!
go and look at my 'reports from Iraq' thread.
Our soldiers didn't decide to do this, they were sent, SUPPORT THEM.
Edit: people like Michele might appreciate it. And my buddy's wife who's entering the same program.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 17, 2008 - 09:30pm PT
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There are all kinds of ways to support the troops Bluering, including asking the politicians to bring them home, give them better medical treatment and stop polluting them with depleted uranium. If you think cheerleading the war and agreeing to keep them there for decades, enduring countless deployments in high temps and among hostile populations is supporting them, then be careful not to support me, cause I don't need that kind of support!
I think you last post is pretty much a strawman because I can't recall any new reports calling the soldiers baby-killers and murderers. There may be stats out there that say innocent people are being killed but that's the kind of data the public needs in order to start calling BS to the politicians.
Peace
karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 17, 2008 - 09:43pm PT
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Karl, NO, NO, NO!!!
You either support our troops in their mission or you dont. Period. They didn't ask to go there, ther're doing what their gov't, Bush, ask them to do. Either you support them and pray for them or you don't.
Nothing to do with Bush and Republicans.
Can't you see that? Our troops are doing their best. Pray for them.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 18, 2008 - 01:02am PT
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Bluering wrote
"You either support our troops in their mission or you dont. Period. They didn't ask to go there, ther're doing what their gov't, Bush, ask them to do. Either you support them and pray for them or you don't.
Nothing to do with Bush and Republicans.
Can't you see that? Our troops are doing their best. Pray for them"
Nothing either of us has been saying prevents us from praying for the troops. Stopping there is a cop-out. Address my individual points about health care, Du, and the rest. If you really want to support the troops, what do you DO on the physical plane? What IS the mission of the troops and who decides that mission? Is it bad for the troops if Bush puts them somewhere where they wind up killing civilians and people who never attacked the US? A lot of Nam vets have been troubled upon return by what our Gov made them do. Fool us once...
It has EVERYTHING to do with Bush and the GOP because they pushed the button to send the troops to die. If it's a good mission, let em stay and die of the cause. We can pray for em while they bleed and are crippled. If it's a bad mission, what's our responsibility then?
Peace
karl
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 18, 2008 - 01:09am PT
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My good friend Blue Ring......
Keep a copy of your posts. In the future, if you stumble out of your very narrow tunnel, you will be as embarrassed and amused by your statements as I am of many of mine, similar to yours, back when I was an idiot distinguished military graduate Army infantry officer airborne ranger aviator Vietnam veteran.
If more dope smoking liberal San Francisco hipnoids would have stopped supporting the troops in Vietnam sooner and louder, we would have been out of that typical presidential ego gratification war sooner, with less troops killed and maimed, less Vietnamese slaughtered, less international hatred for the malicious Americans, and the fundamentally flawed communist dictatorship system would have collapsed sooner.
All a Hitler, Bush or any other malicious mental midget national leader needs for all the ego gratification wars they want, is for gullible citizens to "support the troops". The rest is inconsequential process and quibbling that keeps wars going. That is why Bush's gullible supporters parrot the "support the troops" line, and wave the flag, to replace thinking among the dumbed-down Americans.
Now let me show you how to "support the troops". Anyone can email this post to every American soldier in Iraq, Afghanistan and soon Iran. And if you object to it, that is why we Vietnam veterans were betrayed and attacked the same way you will betray and attack the Iraq war veterans who belatedly figure out the wars and their sacrifices were based on lies of no value to them, this nation or any humans.
You US soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, if you have the courage your government claims you have, walk up to your lieutenant, captain or major, and hand him the following harmless words, in writing:
For my services fighting in the Iraq (Afghanistan) war, and our oath to defend the US Constitution, do you (your CO's name, rank and unit) certify, under penalty of fraud, perjury to oath of office, evasion of a known legal duty and civil liability, that I (your name), my family and colleagues in the US shall be accorded every right described in plain English in the US Constitution, verbatim, fully, by all government entities in the US? Yes. No. Notarized signature block.
If your CO (Commanding Officer) refuses to support the US Constitutional rights for their troops expressly fighting to defend those itemized rights, on accountable record, you therefore recognize that you and your family are being repugnantly betrayed by your CO, the US military and the US government, right from the get-go.
At that moment you and your CO are going to recognize that you are both being used as fools for the ego gratification and raw power of personalities in the US DemocanRepublicrat War Regime.
Every US soldier who died in every war after WWII died for the sole purpose of methodically destroying the citizen rights described in the US Constitution, replacing them with privileges, grantable and deniable by corrupted lawyers appointed to judge jobs by the DemocanRepublicrats they politically supported.
If the government suggests that you are too illiterate or too ignorant to understand the dictionary meanings used by the writers of the plain words in the US Constitution, and that only the DemocanRepublicrat appointed judges can tell you what those words mean, then you are too ignorant to be in any military, and the government was negligent in recruiting you.
You are not that ignorant. The writers of the US Constitution wrote it in plain English so that every literate American could understand it and hold the government to those exact words.
That the excuses for the wars are also lies is inconsequential to the fact that the effect was the negation of the US Constitution, as proven by your CO's refusal to sign the above referenced certification of the rights for which you are supposedly fighting.
Now my good friend Blue Ring, all military active duty personnel, fellow war veterans, and everyone else except the repugnant DemocanRepublicrat Regime and its court judges, we are in complete agreement if your oath or intent to support the US Constitution was not a lie. Is that not so? What is your answer, if you hold the courage you claim.
Carry on...
DougBuchanan.com
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Jun 18, 2008 - 01:20am PT
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sorry blue - i gotta disagree with you too (yeah, shocker there, eh ? ;-) )
supporting the troops means asking the questions that might keep them alive. intact. sane. safe.
imho, and in the opinion of others, our country is currently being run by criminal thugs that are pouring our men and women through the shredder as part of a complicated heist under the pretense of national security. billions are missing - no response. undercover cia operative outed - nothing...prisoners Hid From The Red Cross - sweet...Senate report even states that the pretenses for the war were cherry picked and presented falsely...
So - we sent them to fight and die under false pretenses, are ripping them off, and not adequately caring for them when they do come back.
Tell me what "Support" means to you again please...
Sorry Bro - I Gotta Take Umbrage on this one.
-Tom
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 18, 2008 - 08:22am PT
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Mr. Doug
An awesome post. You are 200% right on target.
The only way to support our troops is to bring them back
home so they can arrest and imprison criminals like shrub
and cheney. Oh, I forgot, the rest of the neocons who've slunk
away from their posts, now that their grand plan is down the
toilet. . . .
Keep up the enlightened posts.
Thanks!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:28am PT
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Doug, I'm speechless. I completely disagree with everything in your post.
God help us.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:38am PT
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So Bluering, when does your detachment leave for Iraq?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:59am PT
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When Iraq becomes the South Korea of the middle east, what will you say then?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 18, 2008 - 12:09pm PT
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"When Iraq becomes the South Korea of the middle east, what will you say then? "
I'd say, "Wake up TGT, you just ejaculated all over yourself."
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howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
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Jun 18, 2008 - 12:26pm PT
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"In Iraq it was the lack of foresight as to the need for more boots on the ground and control of borders. Many tactical mistakes, much like the first years of the Civil War."
Thanks for finally admitting the core of the Liberal beef. Unlike the civil war the mistakes were made when the executive branch ignored all of the intelligence reports and the MILITARY PLANNERS who said we needed more boots on the ground. It's not that we didn't know what we needed, it's that the executive branch chose to ignore the people who knew what the f*ck they were doing and went and made a total mess of it. They knew better and went and screwed up anyways. Doesn't that fall under the category of gross negligence or something?
And yes, support the troops, they are dying to serve out country and our people, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't question the people who put them there. The decider isn't beyond question or responsibility.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 18, 2008 - 12:52pm PT
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re: blueguy's post:
"and about the plague of veteran suicides, having a clue is just a matter of being able to google it..."
I wonder how many of those have to do with media/idiots that claim our soldiers are worthless civilian killers and puppets. They do a job, they take orders and perform. Even if you're against the decision to go to war, F_KING SUPPORT OUR TROOPS AND TELL THEM YOUR PROUD OF THEM!!!
(edited to add, for clarity)
...
and from another post:
Karl, NO, NO, NO!!!
You either support our troops in their mission or you dont. Period. They didn't ask to go there, ther're doing what their gov't, Bush, ask them to do. Either you support them and pray for them or you don't.
Nothing to do with Bush and Republicans
(/edit)
sorry friend, that's hogwash.
honestly, you seem way too smart to believe that, but maybe you really do(?), in which case i don't even know where to start.
if all a leader had to do was successfully begin a war or send our troops in somewhere, and then all americans automatically supported the troops AND THEIR MISSION, wouldn't that blunt the very nature of a democracy? do we become the type of society we have vilified for generations, just as soon as we have troops abroad? i don't think so- no, 1)the troops and 2)their mission are distinct and separate. it's possible to support the former and oppose the latter, in fact most people i know do just that, and do both with a great passion at that.
the troops are not only a tool of policy, they are humans, they are fellow americans, they are fathers and brothers and mothers and daughters, and they are lovers and friends and members of families and communities.
their ongoing sacrifice (and that of their families and communities) is one of the primary reasons why so many of us are so furious about this BS "war" (really an occupation or a nation building/ policing exercise, as their is no identifiable enemy in iraq, which is why they have spoon-fed us the AQ in Iraq myth).
in fact, we "liberals" believe strongly that you "conservatives" (generalizing here, obviously) are the ones who have a weak commitment to the troops. we want the wealthy to pay higher taxes and for all americans to contribute and sacrifice at least something, we want the VA medical care to be top notch, we want PTSD to be studied and understood and treated, we want veterans to have a new GI bill and get a free education, we want the troops to have time between deployments and not face stop-loss call ups after the time they chose to sign up in the service is over...
we say that blindly supporting a flawed invasion and its flawed aftermath is an insult to the families of these brave americans.
rather than support the bushco administration, who have failed at nearly everything wrt this fiasco in iraq, we want to hold them accountable!
we blame the administration for their failed approach to all of this- for blowing off the world, unlike the way bush sr. included them.
do you remember the rush to war? do you remember the you're either with us or you're against us?
do you remember the "old europe" rhetoric?
do you remember them telling us it would be either 6 weeks or 6 months, but not nearly 6 years?do you remember when gW told the rest of the world to take a hike?
do you remember when he said that reconstruction contracts were going to be limited to countries that had been willing to participate in the invasion, and that we didn't need or want the help of the rest of the world- imagine if we had some help now! you can bet our troops would be able to stay home for a full year before being redeployed...
for the abu graib incidents we blame the officers who put untrained soldiers in charge of prisons and allowed the CIA to tell them to "soften them up". we blame the justice department officials and the decision makers who determined they were going to use the same illegal interrogation techniques that they'd been using at gitmo in the afgans they'd captured, because they were so unprepared for the violence they were encountering in iraq at the time and they wanted some way of getting intel on the "insurgents".
for the IEDs that kill and injure so many, we blame the war-on-the-cheap approach, which relied on best case scenarios, which didn't guard ammo dumps or storage facilities, which knew we lacked the armoured up vehicles but chose to "go to war with the army we had, not the army we wished we had", which dismissed the entire iraqi army, which included too few boots on the ground from the get go (and which told tommy franks to re-write his original war plan with half as many troops and dismissed, demoted, or retired all the generals who told the war planners point blank they needed 400k or 500k men.
for all those reasons, we voted against putting these failures of "leaders" back in office in 2004, and we'd have been successful at changing the course of this war (and possibly including more international partners), if it weren't for the many gay marriage issues on so many ballots and the voter registration irregularities and machine availability issues in poor neighborhoods in ohio.
now you want to sit there and tell us that we are equal to the protesters who spit on returning veterans in the 70s? you insult or intelligence with BS like that. we want to see you do something, anything, other than support a "more of the same" republican in the name of supporting the troops, and we call BS on YOUR support. go out and talk your friends into sending their kids! force the congress to send their family members! initiate a draft so the public is equally represented across the socio-economic spectrum!
as far as i can tell, you don't do sh#t for the troops, aside from wishing them well and kissing their collective asses goodbye, and you have the nerve to tell us that our lack of willingness to kiss their asses goodbye and promise them another 4 or 8 or 12 or 100 years of the same as the thanks for their service and their sacrifice is evidence that we are not concerned about their collective welfare, now or in the future?
f*#k that
if you are stupid enough to see it that way, you can keep listening to hannity and limbaugh and coulter, despite that fact that they also have been wrong about everything to do w/ iraq from day 1, and we will simply wait until next year when the criminals now in office will at the very least be kicked to the curb (but hopefully led away in chains).
TGT- south korea?
are you channelling mcsame here now?
this analogy only proves to the rest of us how little you actually grasp about iraq- perhaps it's all the propaganda you glean from the "independent" blog repots you post from time to time?
let me fill you in on a few things pal:
1) north and south korea are separate, so having troops in south korea is more like having troops in kuwait or saudi arabia than it is to keeping troops in iraq.
2) in that part of the world, collective memory and grudges among communities are well known to last generations, centuries. that is a cultural reality, unlike anything we can point to in our own sound-bite conciousness in america.
3) 5 million people in iraq have been driven from their homes, and are suffering in refugee status near the borders of iraq's neighbors
4) we are paying 90K+ individuals a monthly stipend for nothing more that NOT actively engaging in violence on a regular basis, meanwhile we have allowed the ethnic cleansing of vast areas of iraq
5) someday (someday soon?) iraq's nerighbors will insist that the refugees leave their countries and return to iraq. they will have nowhere to go, other than the same homes and neighborhoods they were violently driven away from.
6) you and your fellow supporters of the war and the continued policy, as embodied by the concept of "the surge" and the assertions of john mccain that we will stay in iraq 'as long as it takes', measure the status there in terms of one month's death's vs. the last month's, which completely ignores the major issues.
7) for the vast majority of iraqis, american forces being in iraq for a long and undetermined time period is unacceptable- yet we don't seem to discuss that fact, or at least our media does not discuss that fact with any regularity.
8) nowhere in our history, or in that of the middle east in general, can anyone point to a successful intervention from an outside interest such as our own, which resulted in any lasting or stable improvement, so there is no reasonable expectation that our jaunt into iraq will somehow prevent what seems inevitable to so many observers.
9) nothing in the above is in any way similar to what has happened in korea since (or before) the korean war- so you would do well to put some mental effort into contemplating john mccain's "foreign policy" analogies before you promote them as your own...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 01:08pm PT
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By Liutenant Colonel Michael A. Baumann
SUPPORT THE TROOPS-WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
As I drive to work I see on one side of the street a sign saying “Support the Troops and Their Mission!” Then on the opposite side of the street I spot a sign saying “Support the Troops, Bring Them Home Now!” Most Americans see these as more or less equivalent proposals, but as a veteran, who served 20years in the Army and fought in Iraq, the first sign is a pat on the back and the other is a slap in the face.
First, the pat on the back. When I see a sign saying “Support the Troops and Their Mission” I and other veterans feel thanked and appreciated for what we have done and what we have given to our country. When we see the first sign we feel as though the home front is completely supportive, at peace, and that folks around here are watching our back and standing behind us one hundred percent. This message is one of pure undiluted support for the men and women of the armed forces – sort of like a sign in a high school cafeteria that says “Go Jaguars! Win State!”
A sign that says, “Support the Troops and Their Mission” does not include a subtext request to change the mission but a call of support for those who stand in harm’s way. We soldiers did not choose the mission, but we go out to accomplish it as ordered. And we deeply appreciate it when people on the home front put up signs to show their genuine appreciation of our operations, regardless of how you and we feel about the wisdom of the strategy itself.
Then there are the signs that kick us right in the gut. These include the signs that say, “Support the Troops, Bring Them Home Now!”, and these exhibit a willful ignorance of the meaning of the word “support” together with an arrogant re-definition of what support entails. In effect, the double entendre of the sign – that “support” is redefined to actually mean “undermine” – is very disappointing and demeaning to military people everywhere.
What military people everywhere truly want is for all Americans to support them in their heart and to support their mission in all practical operations. For most military people this includes every part of their service fighting the War on Terror, especially in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you know the military and those who serve, you have an intimate understanding that folks in our modern military those who serve do not hold themselves self-righteously above the mission(s) they seek to accomplish.
The military is not some inanimate object, like a spade or a fork or a wrench. The military is composed of people, flesh and blood Americans who have hearts and minds, who choose to serve, voluntarily. It is their choice to put themselves in harm’s way to defend the America that all of us cherish.
America, your military is you.
Our service members work tirelessly and relentlessly to succeed and accomplish their assigned missions. We don’t quit, tire, or give-up because things get hard or long. It is not in our military constitution to give up once we have been ordered into battle. So that is why we take offense at those who ascribe weakness to us either collectively or individually. We are volunteers. We choose to serve in time of war and peace. In the Great Seal of the United States, on the back of every dollar bill, we are the arrows in the leg-grip of the eagle. We are an asset, a resource, to be used sparingly.
But the “arrows” in the “grip” of the eagle need to be held onto tightly, and used carefully.
That is why I would like fellow Americans to realize that folks who put up signs on their lawn with the slogan, “Support the Troops, Bring them Home Now!” make a political statement and defile honorable, volunteer service in pursuit of their own agenda. Vote in elections, and express your opinion about the strategy, but don’t undermine the troops or troop morale!
Consider this, with all the partisanship of politics in America today, what value is there in disparaging our military service members? We have been down this road before as a nation when we dishonored our Vietnam veterans. Does anyone really want to repeat the hell that we experienced post-Vietnam?
Americans who want political change need to put up lawn signs, bumper stickers, and car magnets that criticize and disparage politicians, not military volunteers. Many might think there is no malice intended with their slogan, but the truth is there is malice, hurt, and ignorance in the slogan, “Support the Troops, Bring Them Home Now!”
Find more appropriate targets than soldiers to express your discontent.
Perhaps you disagree with this assessment…I’d like to hear yours.
If you’d like to reply, see his blog here
http://www.vetsforfreedom.org/troopblog/blogitem.aspx?id=447
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 18, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
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he is entitled to HIS opinion.
there are an equal # of blogs or veteran's organizations whose opinion is different.
it's certainly NOT a decisive argument on your part.
the simple fact is the the logical extension of his argument would be that a horrible and flawed mission could face no public opposition, and therefore face no political pressure to change or be changed- and that is NOT a definition of democracy.
perhaps what he's feeling is in fact a "slap in the face" that came a while ago, and his sense of duty to his country, along with his expectation that his commander in chief was being honest, prevented him from feeling it at the time...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 18, 2008 - 01:33pm PT
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Your failure to see the applicable parallels between Korea and Iraq only illustrates your ignorance of history.
As do many other elements of your agennda.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Jun 18, 2008 - 01:35pm PT
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Ignorance Of History ???!!!!
Point me towards One Empire that is still standing,
Or Shut The F*#k Up.
Just One...That's all you need...
Kisses,
-tom
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 18, 2008 - 01:46pm PT
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jeff-
5 years later, we can't hold on to "more troops"
what we needed, if we were going to oust SH, was true international cooperation.
you blind RW chickenhawks are so anti UN that you figured we could just do it alone-
trouble is, the whole "free market will fix everything" theory was a very western concept and it ignored the opinions of every single person on the planet who in fact does understand the history of the region.
hell, it's as if these guys learned about global affairs by watching movies of the week with you..
=)
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 18, 2008 - 01:47pm PT
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go ahead TGT, 'splain to your captive audience how similar SK and iraq are.
i'd LOVE to hear your arguments...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 01:59pm PT
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PMB, what do mean?
China, Britain, France, Spain, Japan. They are smaller (except China) now but are still thriving nation-states.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 18, 2008 - 02:09pm PT
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i think it's pretty clear that he was talking about the absence of true expansive empires and/or the unsustainable nature of colonialism, do you see very many countries whose global empires still flourish?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 18, 2008 - 02:31pm PT
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Good post Matt. I'm just sorry that the people who need to understand it, won't.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 02:36pm PT
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Are you guys trying to say that we're trying to expand our borders and create an empire? That's ludicrous.
Every time we go to war, we liberate, help them set up a stabile country, and leave it their own sovereignty.
Except, of course, for the war to gain our own independance from a tyrannical empire.
In fact, I guess you could call us an 'empire-busting machine'.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 18, 2008 - 05:08pm PT
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"Every time we go to war, we liberate, help them set up a stabile country, and leave it their own sovereignty"
is that what we do?
would you say we were liberating the vietnamese?
i was born in '69 so i was a bit young to have been paying attention at the time, but i am not even sure if the people who wanted to fight (or continue to fight) that war would have made the argument that we were there to liberate the people- that was more of an effort to "take a stand against the advancement of communism", was it not?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 18, 2008 - 05:22pm PT
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when a black man is the leader of the free world, the crisis in darfur may finally have an end in sight.
i confess that i am inadequately informed to discuss the history of morocco, but there may be a legitimate geographical objection to your inclusion of morocco in a discussion of the middle east.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 05:29pm PT
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"Are you guys trying to say that we're trying to expand our borders and create an empire? That's ludicrous."
Hmm, most historians, economists and political scientists would agree that the U.S. has had an empire since 1898, and indeed perhaps since the Monroe (Adams) Doctrine of 1823. It's perhaps not quite as overt as some 19th century and earlier empires, and more economic and political than military or territorial in nature, but no less an empire for all that.
Latin Americans would be flabbergasted to hear that the U.S. WASN'T an empire, as they've been at the short end of the stick in that regard for a century and more. Chile in 1973 being a prime example, and the interference in Venezuela a few years ago a more recent one. I have little sympathy for Hugo Chavez and his foolishness, but the fact is that he was elected in a more or less free election, and that the U.S. supported an attempt to overthrow him.
"Every time we go to war, we liberate, help them set up a stable country, and leave it their own sovereignty."
Which will surprise most Latin American countries - a U.S. invasion to them is usually followed by dictatorship and represssion. "He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch." Other countries that may be surprised by this are Afghanistan and Iraq - it is doubtful so far whether U.S. actions in their countries has been to the good.
"Except, of course, for the war to gain our own independence from a tyrannical empire."
Very few would agree that the British "empire" (which didn't truly exist until the mid-19th century) was tyrannical. Clumsy and short sighted, yes, in terms of their uppity American colonists. But not bad, as empires go.
"In fact, I guess you could call us an 'empire-busting machine'."
No question that the U.S. had a major role, especially during and after World War II, in liberating certain countries and seeing that they eventually found their way to being stable democracies. And that in the general sense it promotes the idea if not the practice of democracy. But overall its record generally is of supporting anti-democratic (excuse me, anti-communist) thugs. The U.S. also did a lot that led to creation of the Soviet empire, and the Chinese empires.
The real issue is probably that the U.S. as an empire has started to decline in relative terms. The one about the emperor wearing no clothes applies - empires are slow to recognize that they are no longer on top, and that other rivals have appeared. The U.S.' share of the global economy has been declining since 1946. Its share of global population has also been declining. It has squandered a lot of its good will capital on its recent imperial adventures - the rhetoric is far different from the actions.
The rising Chinese, European Union, Indians, and even Russians are watching closely. The U.S. still is militarily predominant - usually the last imperial trait to diminish.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jun 18, 2008 - 05:45pm PT
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These posts are great because it lets you know how crazed supertopo posters are.
God Bless the Internet.
Regular guy + Anonymity + Audience = Asshole.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 18, 2008 - 06:11pm PT
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War is the second most popular hobby of humans, still mired deep in the intellectual dark ages, much to the grand laughter of the observers.
Fat Trad my colleague... "Tactical mistakes" are the mantra of those, like myself in the past, who have not asked enough questions to understand the controlling strategic mistake of attacking another country that did not attack your country, in criminal violation of the Law of Nations recognized in the US Constitution.
After the controlling contradiction of attacking another country, all tactics are the quest of fools, and are doomed by design of the human mind, illuminated by history.
The suggestion that the US bombing of North Vietnam brought them to the peace table is better described as bringing the US to its defeat table, as proven. Wars are fought by (idiot) minds, not by the gullible cannon fodder we are told to support by encouraging them to think less and be more proud to be dumb cannon fodder. The leaders ALWAYS betray the soldiers, ALWAYS.
If the current US military soldiers have not figured it out yet, by countless examples, they will when they show up at a VA hospital on the occasion they are given only endless paperwork to create budget excuses for a vast government bureaucracy designed only to pay itself and shift more money to more wars needing more cannon fodder to betray. Figure it out Blue Ring.
Blue Ring... Read the previous paragraphs again. Every gullible (unquestioning) citizenry is told that their military is liberating the other guys. Fools parrot that government propaganda. The word, "liberating", does not match the actions or results.
But perhaps YOU are a Muslim, and sincerely believe that to be killed by Americans is to be liberated to Heaven. That might explain your displayed worship of the American war regime.
My fighting in Vietnam, like any soldiers fighting any war in any country, was not serving my country. "Serving one's country" is garbage rhetoric with no identifiable meaning, like waving the flag, fooling fools who do not ask real questions of the garbage rhetoric they are fed by GOVERNMENT LEADERS SERVING ONLY THEMSELVES.
My fighting in Vietnam, like the soldiers fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and every war, was being STUPID, believing those old mental midget military generals who never asked or answered a single intelligent question of their actions, their entire wasted lives.
The VERIFIABLY dumbest people of every nation are its military generals (and maybe National Park rangers). Bring any forward, and I will ask the questions that any common person can logically answer, while the military generals will sit there recognizably confused by words that actually hold their dictionary meanings.
Support the American Troops back in America where they can defend America from an attack, not over where they are wasting their lives on yet another presidential ego gratification war.
Send the Pentagon full of mental midget generals over there.
There being no mechanism in the human brain, for one mind to force another mind, with the only mechanism to sustainably resolve contradictions between humans being that of reasoning (asking and answering questions), all uses of force instead of reasoning are doomed BY DESIGN OF THE HUMAN MIND.
The Iraq war can be won within one week, by either side, by using the process of reasoning (asking and answering questions) to the extent that one resolves all the involved contradictions, their own and the other guy's, leaving the other side's leaders promptly defeated by the contradictions they failed to resolve with their own knowledge, by design.
Read those words as often as you wish. Their described effect can be verified against all questions any humans can ask. The knowledge has been offered to the US military on many occasions. But as long as ignorant military and political leaders have gullible, public supported, unquestioning US military cannon fodder available, they will not have incentive to ask even the first question, much to the howling laugher of the observers.
In the future, children will laugh at the entire military concept, sustaining lavishly praised and worshiped leaders who were so abjectly stupid they never even asked or answered the most obvious questions of their contradictions, for thousands of years.
Blue Ring... your knowledge of the military process is interesting. In what units have you "served", or what process of questioning (studying/learning) the military have you exercised?
If you are not laughing at the humans, you are absent.
Doug
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 06:52pm PT
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Matt, yes we werre try to liberate South Vietnam from communist control. We were damn close to ending too until Congress denied them the aid that was promised to them at the Paris Peace Accords. Their president (of the South) at the time even said...
"At the time of the peace agreement the United States agreed to replace equipment on a one-by-one basis. But the United States did not keep its word. Is an American's word reliable these days? The United States did not keep its promise to help us fight for freedom and it was in the same fight that the United States lost 50,000 of its young men."
Mighty Hiker, are you trying to redefine the term 'empire'?
Doug, I've never served in the military. Does that mean that I'm not entitled to an opinion, that I cannot study the history of militaries and form opinions?
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Jun 18, 2008 - 06:55pm PT
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yes, bluering - that is exactly what I meant - our actions reek of colonialism and resource grabbing, positioning for the new american century...just look at all the permanent bases we are putting in Iraq...that's Occupation, not tyranny busting in my opinion.
It is most interesting to witness the hubris with which we ran into this whole mess and utterly bankrupted the country. Last I saw, it's been 500 Billion and rising for this war. We're done. The entire GDP of this nation won't pay off our debt, and Never Will.
Done.
Nice work, boys. You did what no foreign invader ever could.
(on the bright side - my strategy of going long on the student loan forebearances might actually pay off, as once the government collapses I won't owe a dime...)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 06:59pm PT
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The Oxford English Dictionary gives three definitions of imperialism:
"1. An Imperial system of government; the rule of an emperor, esp. when despotic or arbitrary.
2. The principle or spirit of empire; advocacy of what are held to be imperial interests.
3. Used disparagingly. In Communist writings: the imperial system or policy of the Western powers. Used conversely in some Western writings: the Imperial system or policy of the Communist powers."
There's a very active and politically-charged debate as to whether the U.S. had and has an empire.
I am, as a rule, big on self-determination and democracy, and all the values and rights that go with them. But I don't believe that all empires are all bad, and am not necessarily opposed to them, even the U.S. empire - Canada is in many respects part of that empire.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 07:01pm PT
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PMB, so are we occupying Japan, Germany, and Itay too?
It isn't occupying if they (the gov't) want us there.
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DJS
Trad climber
wherever my mind exists
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Jun 18, 2008 - 07:19pm PT
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Regarding the occupation of Italy, Germany and Japan
Yes actually. First we obliterated Italy and forced them to fight on our side against the Axis or Italian soldiers would be considered enemy combatants and shot on sight.
Germany was beaten to submission, it was an unconditional surrender which was the Allies stance on ending the war. They had no choice but to "allow" us to occupy their country. The Cold War prolonged our occupation and split Germany in half. This wasn't fully sorted until a peace treaty was signed in 1990.
Japan was also forced into an unconditional surrender which the Japanese Emperor agreed to after the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. One part of the agreement is that they wouldn't be allowed to build an army and that the U.S. would serve as their military.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 18, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
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It isn't occupying if they (the gov't) want us there
so we are there to "liberate" the people-
(how very zell miller of you!)
yet our presence is determined by "the gov-t?"
whatever fits best into your narrative, i guess...
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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Jun 18, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
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Dogtown=Asshole
I admit it.
But that doesn't change anything.
ALL TERRORIST NEED TO BE SENT TO HELL.
They hate us and want us dead.
Iraq is as good a place as any to kill them Fact is its perfect.
It's hard, very hard to like someone that hates you and want your family dead.
Of course I'm half Jewish.
So to the jackass that called me a racist, put yourself in my shoes.
You don't know sh#t about racism.
You Pussy.
Dog.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 18, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
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^^^
troll alert
...betchya if the US military invades "The Idyllwild City dump" there'd be some new-found terrorists there as well
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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Jun 18, 2008 - 08:18pm PT
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If there are terrorist in the "The Idyllwild City dump" we won't need the marines I'll shoot them myslef.
I see your point Matt, but I don't think its true for the most part.
I think most of the terrorist are Foreign fighters that went to Iraq to get killed and so far we are doing a good job helping them.
Few are home grown. (pitty)
Dog.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 08:26pm PT
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DaftRat said....
"And, to directly contradict #8 above.............Morocco, we installed a benevolent monarchy and it is tolerant of all religions. Of course Islamic forces are now trying to topple it".
Dafty you know nothing at all about Morocco. We installed NOTHING in Morocco except the most sensitive spy listening post in the world to replace the one we lost in Iran.
Teddy R never put troops on the ground, never invaded, never installed a thing.
I lived in Morocco during very troubling times. I lived amoung the people and dealt with the government.
Moroccans would laugh their asses off to hear you so ignorantly pontificate. Then they would probably behead you to save you from your own stupidity. Don't spew about that which you know nothing about.
And quit getting your worldview from Netflix.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 18, 2008 - 08:30pm PT
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dogtown guy-
just out of curiosity-
what do you know about the recent history of the afganistan?
what do you know about the involvement of the US in the wars between the muhajadeen(sp?) and the soviets?
what do you know about the rise of the taliban into power in afganistan?
(and btw, you DO know that afganistan is where the actual AQ terrorists were, prior to 9/11, right?)
so how does one go about creating a "safe haven for terorists"?
any guesses?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:06pm PT
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"Matt, yes we werre try to liberate South Vietnam from communist control. "
Jeez Bluering, read up on the dang war will ya. It was the South and the Us that refused the UN mandated elections to determine the future of Vietnam. It wouldn't have even gone commie if the US hadn't sided with the colonial French against the Nationalist who wanted Whitey out!
We killed 2-3 million people over there and what had they done to us?
SHame
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:14pm PT
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That was your heroes JFK and Johnson that screwed the pooch on that one.
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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I take note of the people talking about US bases in Germany, Japan etc. like the US were invited there and know that they don't know their history.
Every place the US has a base was a manuver to leverage power from a country in an unfortunate situation. The US didn't help anyone in WWII until they were desperately worn down, broke, and would agree to anything. Bam, US supplied just enough to leverage permanent bases in their countries.
The government now doesn't care about recession, or the general population's situation, but they do care about keeping oil in USD, especially with the price hike lately. It works hand-in-hand with their long-term situation, they need to sell their dollars and make interest. Devaluing the dollar does that as well. But devaluing and requiring countries to have to have more USD in reserve for higher Oil prices makes the treasury twice as much. Not the US gov't. That's just a tool.
Now if they could only do something to ensure that countries like Iraq and now Iran will quit breaking out of US currency. I wonder what they will come up with...
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:39pm PT
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No Dafty You don't know. Which is obvious when you constantly state how we should do to other countries just like Teddy R did to Morocco. The western powers didn't seat the current royal family or any other previous ones. Even the link you posted never says they did though they constantly meddled in the affairs of Morocco. The royal family of Maroc is connected to the people through many more years than the European colonial powers involvement.
The people of Morocco would laugh at you for your arrogance and ignorance.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 19, 2008 - 12:13am PT
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Blue Ring my friend... before I upload my words I read them several times, making corrections each time (and still make mistakes). Consider doing so of your words. That you will avoid some embarrassment is immaterial to the far greater value of learning more knowledge by questioning your own words as do I.
Not having served in the military could indicate your greater wisdom demonstrated by those sufficiently wise to prior figure out the contradiction of fighting instead of reasoning, within a species predicated on the reasoning ability of its mind.
Therefore you could have advanced YOUR knowledge with a very similar answer by stating that you have not served in the military because you are not yet certain of its value, and that you have studied the history of militaries.
But for your words to ring true, and be sustainable against questions, you would have had to actually study the history of militaries. Your word arrangement in that regard, and the nature of your other comments indicates that your knowledge of militaries is confined to discussions such as on this forum, and believing RATHER THAN QUESTIONING the laughable ego-inflating, pro-war propaganda of military dolts who exist because they did the same thing for the last several thousand years, quite like myself back then, or I would not have joined the Army.
When you stated that you were speechless and that you completely disagree with everything in my post centered on the troops supporting the US Constitution, anyone could read my post again and recognize that you, like Bush, are categorically opposed to the citizen rights described in the US Constitution, and want to sacrifice soldiers, not yourself, in wars to create the raw power of mental midget ego-dependent war leaders who HATE citizen rights.
If you disagree with the other guy's conclusions, wisely ask the RELATED questions that demonstrate an error in the other guy's conclusions. Of course if your questions are related and effective, they have a 50 percent chance of revealing your own error, to thus advance your knowledge, at your great satisfaction of successfully using your mind for its designed purpose.
Do not agree or disagree with the other guy. Ask yourself the related questions to verify or disprove his statements or actions, so that your resulting entertainment is the product of more knowledge that can be sustained against his questions.
You want knowledge from the other humans, not agreement with your conclusions, if you are wise from this moment forward.
That the US soldiers are told they are fighting for the US Constitution (lie/contradiction) rather than the king, president, fuer, emperor, government, fatherland, motherland or Park Service, when any literate person can read the US Constitution and recognize it has been voided by the DemocanRepublicrat Regime, guarantees the complete defeat of your illusions when the contradiction can no longer be sustained. You cannot fool all of the people all of the time, by design of the human mind.
Fat Trad of the Gop Convention... FDR and the DemocanRepublicrat Regime betrayed the military chaps right down the list of lies that leaders have pandered to cannon fodder since wars were invented. WWII offered a little better illusion of good old us guys, than most wars, but for those with the energy and incentive to look under the metaphorical rug, leadership betrayal of unquestioning followers is eating away at the rug that has been hiding it.
"Peace at any cost" is a meaningless rhetorical illusion. Ask more questions of the sound byte phrases incessantly used to avoid accurate arrangements of words that reveal functioning concepts.
You cannot have peace as long as any social leader is using force or deception to damage another person, by design of the results of force or deception. You can have peace when routinely created contradictions are resolved by reasoning, a concept you have yet to learn.
To use crude language, Bush could slam dunk destroy all the terrorists, communists, Islamic Superstatists, gypsies, evil emperors, those dam liberals and a gaggle of environmentalists, within 6 months for the lot of them, by learning the process of reasoning, that is, asking and answering all the questions of all the contradictions, in a methodical, efficient process, and effect the resolutions that will ultimately happen anyway by design of contradictions, to leave his enemies promptly destroying themselves with their unresolved contradictions facing no actual enemy that sustains contradictions. Your hasty suggestion of any type of opposition by the other guy would merely illuminate one of the contradictions already questioned and resolved.
In contrast, the current use of ignorance-based force and deception creates the contradictions that preclude the use of force and deception from achieving anything but more contradictions, just what the other guy is foolishly doing to stalemate the self-defeat of each entity.
With the same knowledge any enemy of the US can slam dunk the US in a week. Don't worry, the enemies are as dumb as Bush. They and Bush could read these words, and would not know how to form the first question. The design of the comedy is more than just brilliant.
So it is not the meaningless illusion of peace at any cost. It is peace at the cost of YOUR thinking, abhorrent to unthinking military chaps whose money and ego gratification empire is based on force and deception. They perceive that paper money and ego gratification are the zenith of human achievement, oblivious to the design of the human mind. The generals fear more than death the thought of their cannon fodder soldiers asking the type questions that Blue Ring flees rather than answers, the questions that advance knowledge.
Another ProjectNight.com was canceled while I am still working on the AlaskanAlpineClub HQ plumbing. Amusing.
Doug
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 19, 2008 - 03:56am PT
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I just browsed the comments since I was here last...no surprise. Especially you Obama idiots, should realize the need to come together and fight as one for our country. Not for Iraq in particular, although that is essential, but we need to CHANGE....wait...no we don't...this is perfect, we get to discuss politics openly and can even dissent.
I love this place. Matt and PMB and philo are still fools, but at least they show up and debate. Let me go back and read details and see what you commies were talking about....hold on
We do need some changes to our electoral process though. Money should not be so necessary, it should be about intelligent, actionable ideas. Not rhetoric or philosophy, actionable, realistic sh#t.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 19, 2008 - 04:03am PT
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Doug, I'll study you response close this time....I'lll keep editing this post for roughly 10 minutes...
It's o.k. for you to assume I'm an imbecile interms of military affairs. It seems to me that you lack reasonable basic logic skills though, and that's not an insult, just observation.
you said
"and believing RATHER THAN QUESTIONING the laughable ego-inflating, pro-war propaganda of military dolts who exist because they did the same thing for the last several thousand years, quite like myself back then, or I would not have joined the Army."
That can be a noble ideal, to question authority. I insist it's true, but you have to also insist that sometimes, to survive, you must fight...it's actually an instinct. If someone tries to kill you, you defend yourself and kill them first if necessary.
Self preservation.
Your next point about insiting on disobeying orders is lame. The military is based on rules and chain of command for a reason, you guys have a lot of power. You're implying that soldiers basically tell their CO's to fuc-k off? Dude that goes against all military rules...and it should.
hold on...
you said
"In contrast, the current use of ignorance-based force and deception creates the contradictions that preclude the use of force and deception from achieving anything but more contradictions, just what the other guy is foolishly doing to stalemate the self-defeat of each entity."
Dude, I understand military jargon easier than that. WTF are you talking about there...contradictions?
Doug, like many others here, we see things very differntly. No surprise, that's the way it should be...makes our country great that way!!!
To me though, you seem as radical as the gov't you accuse. What if you had everything your way, where would we be? Long term.
We need to moderate and stabilize this shit!
Edit: I just re-read lot of this and Doug, we just have serious philosophical disagreements. It appears to me you're a gov't hater if it goes against your beliefs. Nothing wrong with that, I disagree sometimes too.
I just fear if you get what you want, you'll regret it. Maybe the same applies to my ideals. My rythym guitarist actually got into with me tonight...but I may have instigated. Wanna hear the story? There's a circumcizion involved. I totally mispelled that, but I know one when I see the foreskin removed.
You don't wanna watch this procedure either.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 19, 2008 - 07:22am PT
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Yooo the cool Blue Ring of music, and colleagues......
Save all your posts. They are classic. If you have them to review in 20 years, you will laugh yourself to tears with the knowledge you learned in the interval.
You can learn much of it right now. Read carefully, and form questions from the following.
Your conclusions attributed to me are illusions your mind invented to keep itself fooled, as does George Bush. They were not my conclusions, or you would have seen my words matching yours in the posts.
You were not an imbecile until you suggested it. I assume nothing. You revealed that you assumed that I assumed something I did not. Wisely assume nothing.
If I lacked basic reasoning skills (asking and answering questions), you would have noted a question I could not answer, whose answer contradicted a conclusion of mine. Bare conclusions reveal likely ignorance, unless they indicate available reasoning.
Is it unlawful for an Army Private to carry out an unlawful order issued by a Captain, General or Commander in Chief?
The answer is yes, as taught in the Army and otherwise obvious to any literate person.
Blue Ring, is it unlawful for an Army Private to carry out an unlawful order issued by a Captain, General or Commander in Chief? Having suggested that you could have studied militaries, are you capable of answering that fundamental question of all internal military authority?
Is it possible for an Army Captain, General or Commander in Chief, being human and corrupted by power, to issue an unlawful order? Your answer?
It is not only unlawful to carry out an unlawful order, it is the known legal duty of the Private to refuse to obey an unlawful order, as taught by the Army.
As known to the military chain of command, were it otherwise, the lieutenant could order his private to kill the general, to create a lawful "straw man" process that the private would be required to obey, and assume command. Read that as often as you wish. It is fundamental military doctrine, of all militaries.
If you have military people who are so stupid they do not know how to distinguish a lawful order from an unlawful order, your military is useless and doomed. Stupid people make a lousy military, such as that of Saddam Hussein, and the US military that has functionally lost 10 wars since WWII.
Soon enough, the US military will face profound problems that may dramatically alter the US military or imprison many officers because the extent of unlawful orders issued by Bush, and sustained by stupid officers, has undermined the fundamental concept of a credible chain of command, much to the amusement of the observers. Military officers are starting to question what has been happening, by imperative.
Your mind invented the conclusion that I implied that soldiers basically tell their CO's to "fuc-k off". Read everything I wrote, again, and notice that you are yet clueless of how to use words that hold their meanings. I am guessing that you were as poorly taught by equally ignorant public school teachers, as was I. I therefore had to learn that skill on my own. Learn it.
But not a bad idea. The current US military CO's are so dismally pitiable, taught by the same failed government school system, that soldiers telling them to fuc-k off would inherently improve the US military effectiveness. When did we accomplish that last mission?
If it is evident that somebody is about to kill you, I suggest you kill him, and have already learned several ways to do so, a large caliber hand gun if you are busy and do not have time for more entertaining methods.
But if he is only threatening to kill you, he is probably some teenage mentality matcho school yard bully like Saddam and Bush, and you would be wise to graciously educate him in the wisdom of not using force that will only create enemies that will increase his problems, as it would yours if you were as unwise as he.
Do not shoot the grizzly bear with a hand gun before you have a REAL problem. He is probably only bluffing as usual, and when you shoot him, you will have a REAL problem. Why are we still stuck with that accomplished mission, and American troops still being killed, and tax dollars drained into the Middle East sand trap, and the world increasingly holding Americans in contempt? Your answer?
The word, "contradiction" is not military jargon. It is a more accurate and more useful word for "problem". The more accurate your words become, the more readily your mind will recognize the resolutions to the contradictions that frustrate people confusing themselves with generalized words that carry too many different connotations.
We do not see things differently. Our minds lack the knowledge held by each other. Learn the knowledge, by asking and answering questions, and you will recognize that you and your enemy both want the same thing that is available to each of you without fighting, and not available while you are fighting. Only you create your enemies, from lack of knowledge.
If everyone else thinks the world is flat, and Christopher says it is round, did you want to call him radical, and moderate his sh#t, or learn his knowledge? What is your answer? Did you want to learn what your current political friends claim as is, or what actually is?
You invented my accusing the government of being radical. It is not. It is normal. It represents power-damaged minds, the norm for the current era of humans deep in the intellectual dark ages.
You invented my hatred for the government. I do not hate it, or anything else. I am amused by it, and everything else. The brain chemistry based emotion of hatred obscures useful reasoning. Hate nothing. Learn about it. It is part of the comedy.
I already got what I want, and I can assure you that I cannot regret it. I collect knowledge. What do you want to know. It is yours for the asking. Form your questions very carefully. Question them.
Let me know when you release a CD. Screw the lyrics. I dance to the music not the words.
Or some sort of whatever like that.
How did all these empty chocolate candy wrappers get around my computer at 3:30 AM?
Doug
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Jun 19, 2008 - 10:53am PT
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Fattrad, is your daughter posting again. Someone says they did, you say they didn't. Yes they did, no they didn't. Yes they did, you loose.
Don't denegrate yourself, if you are going to argue with someone, don't make yourself worse by repeating their mistake, elevate yourself and research, state your source.
Or just pull the classic fatty move. Show up, spew, leave. Haven't been right on much, too bad you can't bet money/invest on your war predictions eh? Your clients would have been broke!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 19, 2008 - 06:46pm PT
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The problem Bluering, is that Bush's military and economic policies are much, much more of a threat to this country than the boogyman Islamists. You ask us to support the bigger threat because they have scared us with the smaller one.
Sorry, no dice. Many detailed and clear arguments have been made against your view here and you have said nothing of substance to refute their facts and ideas. Wake up, so you don't find out that your support was as blind as a Hilter Youth in old germany.
We have to see the real threats and problems are within.
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 19, 2008 - 06:48pm PT
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Also, "imperialism" has changed. It's inefficient to move in to a country if you can have a compliant local stooge run things for you, and still exhert economic hegemony over it's trade and resources. This is Empire 2.0 and Iraq has lots of oil fools. Have you noticed it's $5 a gallon for gas versus $1.40 when Bush took office.
Sh#t is going down and you're paying all the attention to the great and powerful OZ but never questioning the man behind the curtain.
Peace
karl
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 19, 2008 - 07:07pm PT
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once again, my good friend karl baba is full of shit!
...gas was $1.46 when bush went in
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 19, 2008 - 08:27pm PT
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Gas was a quarter when the peanut man went in.
1.65 (660% increase) and rationed when he left.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 19, 2008 - 09:13pm PT
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Geez, Karl, resorting to implicate me with Hitler Youth when there's no basis. That's slander, dude.
How am I similar to the Hitler youth, maybe you should retract that comment?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 19, 2008 - 09:16pm PT
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Riley, don't be fooled into thinking I love Bush. I can agree with somebody occsionally and still disagree mostly, even if I voted for him twice. He's a fu-ling hack, a liar. Doesn't mean everything he says/does is wrong, though.
Get over it. try clear logic, for once, instead of emotion.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 19, 2008 - 09:19pm PT
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Hi Bluering.
Don't slander the Hitler youth, I'm positive 80% of them were fine kids that merely bought their government's propaganda and supported the government party line at the time.
You seem the same way frankly. I know you're a good guy. If the government said we have to nuke Iran right now to save us from nuclear terrorism, you'd say, OK, I trust ya. thanks for protecting me.
Tell me it ain't so, but I bet it is.
You're just lucky that the Bush evils haven't risen to the Hitler evils. That's the main difference we're talking about here.
Peace
karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 19, 2008 - 09:26pm PT
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"If the government said we have to nuke Iran right now to save us from nuclear terrorism, you'd say, OK, I trust ya. thanks for protecting me."
Maybe we need to talk more at the next Facelift, you don't seem to know me.
Nuke Iran? Maybe 3 or 4 1ton bunker busters, but nukes?
You're trying to make me out as more extreme than I am. Let's stop exagerrating.
I'm actually insulted you'd associate me the HY, more disappointed, but insulted too. It's cheap, petty.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 19, 2008 - 10:34pm PT
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Bluering wrote
"I'm actually insulted you'd associate me the HY, more disappointed, but insulted too. It's cheap, petty."
Don't be insulted bro. i'm just reall pointing out that people are products of their conditioning. There aren't piles of "those evil people" out there, just human beings that haven't questioned their circumstances.
Check it out, how many of us Supertopo folks would be Muslim if we were all born and raised in Saudi Arabia? How many of us would be loyal to the german government if we were born and raised German during the rise of Hilter. Don't kid youself.
You standing up for a dark, failed, violent policy here in supporting a war that was unfounded and immoral. The only reason I can figure for it is accepting the party line.
It would be more insulting if I came to the conclusion you were supporting the war from a more informed critical standpoint.
peace
karl
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jun 19, 2008 - 10:38pm PT
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Nuke this sh#t B...........
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Jun 19, 2008 - 10:44pm PT
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Riley, I am not an idiot. Dammit. I'm a retard. get it straight.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 19, 2008 - 11:35pm PT
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re:
You standing up for a dark, failed, violent policy here in supporting a war that was unfounded and immoral. The only reason I can figure for it is accepting the party line.
It would be more insulting if I came to the conclusion you were supporting the war from a more informed critical standpoint.
right on point karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 19, 2008 - 11:38pm PT
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Karl, so since I support winning this war at this point, I'm just towing Bush's line?
Little Hitler Youth spouting the Penatgon line? That's what you think?
read my posts about supporting our troops upthread.
It ain't about Bush or the pentagon anymore. It's about finishing off the job, unlike Vietnam. We're right about at the same point when Congress left S. Vietnam hanging in the wind, then overrun. We are damn close to finishing this thing, if we ain't there yet!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 19, 2008 - 11:38pm PT
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As the source for the following is identified, it will hopefully be considered reliable by those unaccustomed to critical thinking.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 19, 2008 - 11:41pm PT
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"You standing up for a dark, failed, violent policy here in supporting a war that was unfounded and immoral. The only reason I can figure for it is accepting the party line."
Am I really? Thanks for telling me so.
I should probably jailed for even thinking that too, huh?
Edit: Funny how peacenik liberals get all agressive.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 20, 2008 - 12:06am PT
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how exactly is that aggressive?
(and btw, people who are against war in general are not necessarily passive, or pacifists)
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 20, 2008 - 12:11am PT
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"Am I really? Thanks for telling me so.
I should probably jailed for even thinking that too, huh?"
the truly funny bit is that you fail to see the incredible irony in that statement
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 20, 2008 - 12:16am PT
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Matt, you're soooo smart, I wish I was like you.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Jun 20, 2008 - 12:21am PT
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there you go pulling *facts* out again anders...damn facts...
charts too - don't you know numbers, like reality, have a known liberal bias ?
i suppose you think that 1 trillion we are spending to kill people, us included (most of which, oddly enough, goes to people CONNECTED WITH THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT...), would better be spent getting us the f*#k off the oil and into sustainable, renewable food and transportation energy sources, too...no xmas card for you this year from the white house ;-)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 20, 2008 - 12:43am PT
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Bluering wrote
"It ain't about Bush or the pentagon anymore. It's about finishing off the job, unlike Vietnam. We're right about at the same point when Congress left S. Vietnam hanging in the wind, then overrun. We are damn close to finishing this thing, if we ain't there yet! "
First Bluering, the problem with Vietnam wasn't that we didn't kill enough people. We killed 2-3 million Vietnamese and for what? Before we left we had already installed a couple of puppets in South Vietnam to do our bidding and Kennedy even stabbed one of them in the back to put a different puppet in there. It was a whole post-colonial sh#t-fry and we screwed it up from beginning to end. It's not lost on me that Democrats were more responsible for getting us in there than the GOP, so it's an equal opportunity screw-up. (and actually, it was the GOP that cut their losses and ran, but I support that decision)
We are NOT remotely close to finishing this thing. The only thing that has been accomplished is this; Now that there are 2-3 million homeless refugees in and outside of Iraq, and now that many regions, particularly in Bagdad, are ethnically cleansed, there are somewhat less people being killed because many are already dead or fled!
You don't get it, we're not there to allow them to be a democratic nation (which would only result in them becoming an Islamic State, which it wasn't before we invaded)
The point is staying in bases there and controlling the oil and economy through a complaint government. That will never be accepted by the proud people of Iraq just like we would never accept foreign Islamic control here. What's so hard to get about that?
peace
karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 20, 2008 - 01:52am PT
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There is no oil shortage...and you have to be somewhat retarded to think so.
The American people are getting their asses handed to them...plain and simple
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 20, 2008 - 02:18am PT
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"We are damn close to finishing this thing, if we ain't there yet!"
uhhhhh-
what are you talking about?
WE AREN'T EVEN WINNING IN AFGANISTAN!!
(did you hear where they busted 400+/- taliban from prison a few days ago? sweet...)
all you got in iraq are several divergent groups biding time and jockeying for position, there has been ZERO political progress, and iran won the war.
the only way iraq will ever be stable is when we leave and another leader as brutal as SH comes to power there. not that i look fwd to it, but there is just no interest in reconciliation on the part of the many factions in iraq.
"damn close to finishing the job"...?
i am almost afraid to ask, but, according to whom?
(seriously)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 20, 2008 - 02:51am PT
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DaftRat posted
"You're in complete denial, the western powers were replacing royal relatives to their pleasing in Morroco. Nice try at rebuttal, but you lose".
Kindly prove it or stuff it.
Nothing in your link proves it so it is up to you.
Just like the lies about Israel that you constantly purport to be truth try to prove it.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 20, 2008 - 04:46pm PT
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Blue Ring of the almost finished war......
Study the history of wars.
The wars started by the US are finished when the US is thrown back out of where it invaded. In Iraq and Afghanistan the US military defeated the Iraq and Afghan militaries. Then the Iraqis and Afghans started the current counter attack which will result in the US being handed its ass on the way across the nearest border, on schedule. That is when those wars will end.
You, Bush, McCain and Obama would have it no other way if you were Afghan or Iraqi. Is that not correct? Or is that a question you will flee rather than answer, and thus sustain your current embarrassing perception of some sort of superiority over those other guys in their own country?
Enjoy the show.
Doug
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2008 - 04:57pm PT
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Yep those rag heads are just kicking the crap out of the Afghani govt. and us.
June 19, 2008: Afghan and NATO forces killed or wounded several hundred Taliban who had come together south of Kandahar, and tried to take over seven villages. As usual, an examination of the dead, and interrogation of prisoners, showed that most of the gunmen were from Pakistan, recruited from Pushtun tribes, and religious schools for boys. Not exactly a great source of skilled warriors. Give them an AK-47, a few days training, a pep talk by a preacher and send them across the border. If they don't come back, and many don't, declare them martyrs for the cause.
In the south, another Taliban suicide bomber failed. The explosion, near a NATO convoy (apparently the intended target) killed ten civilians, and wounded many more. This makes the Taliban, and their al Qaeda allies, even less popular. The Taliban made did little for their public image by planting landmines around villages they briefly occupied south of Kandahar. The millions of mines the Russians left behind in the 1980s are still being cleared, and continue to kill and wound people.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 20, 2008 - 05:00pm PT
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"Yep those rag heads"
Typical racist garbage spewed from an idiot.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 20, 2008 - 06:06pm PT
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judy- i'm sure it's all the fault of the democrats in congress
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2008 - 06:12pm PT
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Sorry, ragheads is both impolitic and incorrect.
You see they aren't rags at all they wear but little carefully folded sheets.
That makes them;
Little sheetheads
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 20, 2008 - 06:22pm PT
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Just like Nam TGT, it doesn't matter if we kill 10,000 for every 100 they kill of us, they are fighting for "home" and we aren't. It's that simple, the guys fighting for their home will fight on and on.
Peace
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2008 - 06:54pm PT
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Checkk your reading comprehension.
Most of them are Pakis, not Afghani. Karzai is ready to chase them clear into Pakistan.
June 15, 2008: Afghan president Hamid Karzai caused a major diplomatic incident when he threatened to send his troops across the border to kill or capture Pakistani Taliban warlord Baitullah Mehsud. The Pakistanis have failed to bring Mehsud under control, even though Mehsud took credit for assassinating former premier (and recent presidential candidate) Benazir Bhutto. While Pakistani officials denounced the threat, many Pakistanis secretly wish Karzai would take down Mehsud. Both men are the leaders of powerful Pushtun tribes, and the majority of Pakistanis (who are not Pushtun) wish the tribes would just police themselves and cut out the violence. Pushtun unrest has been a problem in the region for thousands of years, and the non-tribal majority never gets used to it. Karzai's threat was particularly popular among businessmen across the border, where Taliban violence (in what is basically a battle for control of tribal governments by religious extremists) has ruined commerce. This affects everyone, with truck traffic disrupted and many shortages angering lots of people.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 20, 2008 - 07:01pm PT
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yeah keep eating that spoonfed propaganda pal-
karazi is all but impotent in afganistan-
he's the last thing on the minds of the pakis, that's a joke.
edit-
TGT you are such a tool!
i love how you post some blurb about a single suicide bomber and ignore the huge news that the taliban just freed a few hundred of their pals by destroying a f*#king prison! HELLO!
makes sense though, as ignorance (which you regularly exhibit) is known to be the foundation for bigotry (which you also regularly exhibit).
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 20, 2008 - 07:02pm PT
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It was also the Dems fault the price of oil tripled while Bush and the Republicans had complete control.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 20, 2008 - 07:08pm PT
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"Sorry, ragheads is both impolitic and incorrect"
David Duke would approve. Great company you keep.
I guess you consider our friends over there to be ragheads too. Same/similar culture, same religion.
Whatever. You're an as#@&%e.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2008 - 07:12pm PT
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Dirtbag,
You are a little testy for a straight man.
I knew it would only be a matter of seconds for a fish to rise to the bait.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 20, 2008 - 07:18pm PT
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LOL
i can see the 'onion' headline:
"oil prices spike as demand for lube skyrockets; officials confide that the availability of area man's newly reconstructed anus has impacted the stock market"
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 20, 2008 - 07:20pm PT
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TGT, just don't pretend like you actually care about the people living over there. We know better.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2008 - 07:21pm PT
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You have a frog in your pocket?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jun 20, 2008 - 07:28pm PT
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Please give me one example of where one country invades another and the result is a long period of peace and prosperity.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jun 20, 2008 - 07:40pm PT
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Okay, Germany you historical ignoramus. I'll throw in Japan too. Japan was invaded upon surrender to keep from being ultimately overrun so one could quibble about the term invasion; however, it was smashed from the air.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 20, 2008 - 07:45pm PT
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^^^
i'm pretty sure that's what jesus would suggest as well
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 20, 2008 - 07:52pm PT
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so jesus would advocate slaughtering them until they were all gone, rather than loving them?
love to se the scripture you'd quote to support that point of view!
jesus
gandhi ... VS ... jody
MLK
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2008 - 08:28pm PT
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Don't be so accurate Jody. After all theology is as relative as every thing else. Don't even know (and it wouldn't matter)which references belong to the OT or NT
It's news if those that believe in a malicious theocracy are winning,
And propaganda if those that believe in the rights of the individual are ascendent.
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Jun 20, 2008 - 08:29pm PT
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Exodus is the only OT verse there
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 20, 2008 - 08:37pm PT
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Matt. 26:52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 20, 2008 - 08:45pm PT
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smarter people than you disagree...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2008 - 08:47pm PT
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Even the MSM has to admit to reality,
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 7:43 AM
By Jim Maceda, NBC News Correspondent
Dora, in Saddam’s time, had it all – a power station and oil refinery provided jobs and its large bungalows hidden in date palm groves drew rich, powerful Sunnis and their families to this southern suburb of Baghdad.
But Dora fell on hard times at the start of the war in 2003.
When I visited Dora about 18 months ago, it was with the U.S. 1st Cavalry Division, before the surge of U.S. and Iraqi forces into Baghdad began. The once bustling "gateway to the South" was a ghost town. It smelled of cordite, an explosive powder.
Sunni residents were in hiding; Dora’s Shiites were dead or had fled to other provinces; its many Christians – doctors, architects and other professionals – had also fled to escape the sectarian killing. The insurgent town had become an al-Qaida stronghold. But that wasn’t the only threat: Shiite death squads, masquerading as National Police, had murdered and maimed so many Sunnis that the 1st Cavalry had to force the police out of their precinct and cordon off the area.
It was a very different Dora that I saw this past week, once again embedded with U.S. forces – this time with the 4th Infantry Division. Life had returned. Dora’s famous Friday open market was bubbling with people, produce and color. No one looked afraid.
Working together
U.S. troops, who now live in an outpost right in the middle of town, were not the only force patrolling the streets. So were the infamous, primarily Shiite, National Police, as well as the so-called "Sons of Iraq" – local volunteers, all Sunni, who were mostly former insurgents. It was something quite remarkable I was seeing for the first time: U.S., Shiite and Sunni armed forces cooperating for the general good.
Sunni residents, who wouldn’t have dared to be seen talking to members of the National Police a year ago, were now complaining to them about rising food and fuel prices in the market or asking for advice.
"Before we all suffered from a triple threat – al-Qaida, the militias, and sectarian kidnappings," said Alladin Hussein, a former major in Saddam’s Army, who I met in the market. "Now we are living in stability and security. It’s like a precious gem, something very fragile that you have to take care of."
Lt. Justin Chalvko could be called "Mr. Dora" as far as Iraqis here are concerned. He is the face of the U.S. presence in the area – he lives in the local U.S. Army outpost and leads daily patrols through the market with his platoon. He knows many residents by their first names, and jokes with them in his broken Arabic.
Chalvko said the changes in Dora since his arrival six months ago are "like night and day." But he’s no fool.
"Even though it’s good now," he warned, "it’s only been good for four or five months. People are starting to move back into the area, but it’s like everyone’s walking on eggshells still. They want to make sure that it’s for real, it’s not just something temporary."
Sure, the hundreds, perhaps thousands, of 12-foot high, 10-ton blast walls that now surround – and isolate – Dora help keep al-Qaida at bay. But local Dorans don’t seem to care. In fact, most Iraqis I asked about the blast walls said that they actually felt freer these days with the concrete barriers and joint patrols to protect them.
Chalvko walked us past Dora’s reopened parks and replanted gardens, past its new library, its primary care clinic, and high school.
Bank open for biz
He explained that, at first, people just wanted security. Now they want services. He then led us to one service that had just opened last week – the Dora branch of the Rafidain Bank. A bank! I hadn’t been inside a functioning Iraqi bank in years. The last Rafidain Bank branch I was this close to was burning out of control on Baghdad’s Haifa Street during those chaotic days just after the fall of Saddam.
We went inside. There were a dozen or more customers, one in a wheelchair, counting small piles of Iraqi dinars they had just withdrawn or were about to deposit. Tellers, mostly women in head scarves, were busy filling out bank slips and attaching paper clips to deposits. The manager, all the while, was pacing back and forth, smiling nervously, from his office to the tellers and back. I guess that being a bank manager in Dora is not the safest of jobs, no matter how many troops or blast walls surrounded you.
But, it struck me that the very presence of a bank was a symbol of change. Dorans could now avoid traveling through interminable checkpoints, across Baghdad, risking their lives to deposit or withdraw money for loans on houses or cars or new businesses. They could do all their business right here, in their own neighborhood.
"Instead of looking to the Americans to help them out," said Chalvko, "they can come here. It’s a sign that things are going in the right direction."
How many Doras are there?
Covering the war in Iraq is often about analyzing the trend lines. We’re all looking for the elusive "turning point" – that gauge that ultimately allows us to measure victory or defeat.
One of my Nightly News editors in New York, Robert Dembo, summed it up nicely, "I guess the real question now is: How many Doras are out there?" And I’ve got my own new question: "I wonder just how long Rafidain Bank will stay open?"
We shall see.
Jim Maceda is an NBC News Correspondent based in London. He has reported on the war in Iraq since the U.S. invasion in 2003 and is currently on assignment in Baghdad.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 20, 2008 - 08:50pm PT
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Seems ironic to me that the same folks advocating a violent interpretation of Christianity are the same ones criticizing Islam, focusing on those with violent interpretations of Islam.
I'd like to see all the folks who think God wants his peeps to kill for the cause to find a nice desert island to fight it out on, with knives or hand to hand.
Then the rest of us could get started with the Peace and Love that it's going to take to really save the world.
The teachings of Jesus, who lived in territory occupied by foreigners and whose religion had become corrupted by fundamentalist literalists as well, speak for themselves. He didn't have a violent suggestion against any of them, and taught turning the other cheek and loving your enemies.
I'd go to the source for what Jesus was about, what he said.
You should have some shame twisting your own religion when it's plain Jesus called on you to have faith that Love should prevail
Peace
Karl
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 20, 2008 - 09:20pm PT
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you're right jody, sorry about that (there's just so much material here//)
"Funny how liberals defend a people that treat their women like crap. Also pretty funny how they defend people who want to kill them."
everyone who thinks the punishment for treating women like crap ought to be the slaughter of civilians, please raise your hands...
everyone who believes the iraqis would be trying to kill americans if we were not occupying their country, please raise your hands...
everyone who believes that only the iraqis that "want to kill [us]" are being killed, please raise your hands...
everyone who believes we are in iraq to protect the women, please raise your hands...
and finally, everyone who thinks we are in iraq because they attacked us/ they want to kill us/ we are fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here, please raise your hands
(judy/TGT et al, what are you using for your 5th hand?)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 20, 2008 - 10:41pm PT
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Matt wrote
"Matt. 26:52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."
Don't you think quoting Matt. is bad taste?
Jody will believe what he wants to believe, but there isn't squat in the gospels themselves to justify a violent Christianity or violent Jesus, and LOTS to refute it.
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 21, 2008 - 03:30pm PT
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Fatty
Politics have managed to corrupt religion in various ways throughout history. Jesus complained that Judaism at the time was corrupt. The Muslim and Christian campaigns of killing were corruption as well.
That's one reason why I tend to respect the Mystical traditions at the periphery of the major faiths, The Sufis, Kabbalists, and Christian Mystics. None of them has played party to conquest and violence. The more a person actually communes with the Spirit, the less they are likely to kill and hurt people.
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 03:44pm PT
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Matt are a you subscribing Christian, do have faith?
Karl?
It just seems funny to me that people who seem (I could be wrong) to criticize biblical absolutism are directly taking the word of Jesus literally, as if they are direct quotes, and they could be.
Do you also believe that God literally created the world in such a short time? I, for one, do not.
The Bible is a guidebook for mankind (and women too). It's full of story too, but I think the intention was to pass down values that mankind could learn from, to establish a common 'good' society.
Sometimes they get perverted, the values. It is my belief that God suggested that homosexuality was a bad thing for society in general. I don't think he meant to 'kill the gays', he just didn't want it to be promoted as 'normal'. If everybody did it, civilization would rot and die.
He wanted men and women to create families and share love, and share love with generations of familiy.
I've always been an old testament kinda guy, but Jesus was a good man. He was born from God to show us the things that God was pissed off about. God wanted to come down himself and open some whoop-ass, but because he's good, he sent his son, Jesus. Jesus, at the time, showed us corruption and taught peace.
That's not to say that God doesn't get pissed off, Jesus showed a peaceful solution to certain problems, God isn't so nice sometimes.
When confronted with evil and peple willing to take God's innocent children, you are entiltled to stand up for your family and fight. God's beautiful world doesn't need to be overrun by evil, it takes good mean to protect it.
I don't think God or Jesus are ashamed of that. Sometimes we do dissapoint the Almighty, and we hear from him, but sometimes we're expected to stand up to evil when it appears and defeat it before it overtakes us.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 03:49pm PT
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Equating the teachings of Jesus to the politics of the Papacy is a complete foolishness. Easy to understand DaftRat's need to do it in light of his determined need to promote Fat's Clash.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 21, 2008 - 03:54pm PT
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Bluering wrote
"When confronted with evil and peple willing to take God's innocent children, you are entiltled to stand up for your family and fight. God's beautiful world doesn't need to be overrun by evil, it takes good mean to protect it. "
I'm sure that's what the Iraqi insurgents are telling themselves before they go out and try to kick the Americans out of the hood
Peace
karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
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That may be, Karl, but since we come bringing peace in the long term, they will soon realize that and chill.
I understand their anger, but they're starting to understand we just want peace and stability there, and a good life for the people.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Jun 21, 2008 - 04:57pm PT
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A interview with god.
< Link >
The Red White and Blue image in the blog is not free. A
service scan shows stack host.name is still the same
ip as the copyrighted site.
< Link American Woman. > The guess who is not my favorite band.
To Lorne(1980) and Larry in Idaho(1979):
Lorne your unlikely jock friend from high school. Same dragon from(1978).
< Link >
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 21, 2008 - 04:59pm PT
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Bluering, we've been there for MANY YEARS now, and apologists for the war have been making nearly the exact statement you just wrote in every single one of those years.
It ain't happening. How many years would you live under occupation before you figured it was all good?
peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 21, 2008 - 06:19pm PT
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Hi Skipt
Like I said before, the reduction in violence is mainly due to the advanced state of ethnic cleansing already accomplished and the fact that 2-3 million people have left their homes, no longer available to be killed.
Folks are still dying including us. Wait until Bush bombs Iran and you'll see a whole new wave of death in Iraq too.
I'm just pointing out that your and Bluering's statements, that things are improving and we're nearly turning the corner are BS statements that have been make over and over and disproved over and over. The place is still unsafe as hell.
Peace
Karl
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 21, 2008 - 06:58pm PT
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"You really don't mind telling any type of falsehood in order to make a point. What other things are you lying about?"
Hey Skip, It is not lying, it is an opinion. Just as it is your opinion that war can resolve issues that create terrorist groups. Remember, it is a war on terrorism, yet the experts say we are creating more terrorists with our methods.
I still think the war in Iraq is a big mistake even if we manage to put in place a democratic government. Middle Easterners have too long a history of using violence to settle issues and they have a long history of being willing to bide their time to gain revenge. In relation to their history, this lull means almost nothing.
If you kill all the "trained" bad guys, but create a whole new pool of angry people, then you just continue the cycle.
Are you seriously prepared to risk troops for another 20 to 100 years as the experts say we will have too, if we stay? Or do you get your opinions from McCain who says we can be mostly out in less then 5 years? Oops, he also said 100, 200 years.
Iraq is much different then either Japan or Germany. Yes we attacked those countries, but not before they attacked us first. No matter what you say about Iraq, they did not attack us first as a country and therefore there will be a lot of indignant people there who will eventually want revenge for the death of their daughters, sons, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, grand parents and on and on. They have a long history of seaking revenge, and it is these injured people that the Bin Ladens of the world will draw from as their next recruits, thus extending a vicious cycle of terrorism around the world.
But hey, that is just my opinion.
Am I lying?
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2008 - 06:59pm PT
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Skip:
All the reports I have seen tell us the Sunni and Shia, in many cases were living side by side, in neighboring buildings and apartments at the time of our invasion. Go to the newspapers of that day and you will see this described daily. For more than two years the populations, have been moving into physically separate areas. Both sides were being gunned down as they walked down the hall to get to their apartments. I think you can imagine how life under those conditions would have been. Imagine you lived, side by side, with someone who did not trust you and felt they had to strike first if their family was to survive.
So our action has been such as to destroy irreversibly the attempt long alienated populations were making to discover how to share a nation, and to share a life. We have destroyed the only effective resolution available to these beleagured people.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 21, 2008 - 07:25pm PT
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Now who is being disingenuous? Do you state that things are your opinion every time you make an opinion?
We are winning the war in Iraq because statistics show their is less violence. Is this fact or opinion?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
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The Bush Reich care nothing for the Shia, sunni or Kurds. They care only about Petro-Dollars.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 21, 2008 - 08:53pm PT
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Your opinion is based on ignorance of the facts.
The MSM has done a horrible job of informing on both the good and the bad.
Yon is a good source. This one more academic, but mostly pros.
http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 21, 2008 - 09:13pm PT
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The "facts" are always distorted by the media either thru ignorance or agenda.
That's why you go to the source, (been there, done that, have the green shirt).
Counting on the MSM / AM is like thinking that the Fresno Bee is going to accuratelydescribe a Big wall incident.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 09:19pm PT
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Hmmm. One initial post (long), then two tiny posts en route. 380 (now 381) bites.
Evidently Bryan has a lot of liberal friends. Good work!
Now what were we talking about again? :-)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 09:26pm PT
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Well Jody tell us what happened.
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Jun 21, 2008 - 10:02pm PT
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They had steadily been falling since the initial 9/11 surge.
I'm looking at your chart and I don't know what you are talking about Jody. I see a steady rise for four and a half years, a short term drop for five or six months months, and then a steep climb.
Here's another chart:
blue line
and another:
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 10:34pm PT
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It means Jody is an out of context sound bite putz.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 10:35pm PT
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Karl, I'm sorry I'm late. You seem to be very aggressive for such a passive guy. You 'attack' people who are are warriors against violence yet defend people who propagate violence.
Am I wrong? I'm trying to understand you. Is vengence and counter-action always unjustified?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 10:58pm PT
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Riley, try to be a fellow man and be cool.
You're too obnoxious!!!, bro,
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 21, 2008 - 11:14pm PT
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Skip wrote
"Jody,
You asked,
"What do you think it means?"
Barack Obama in traditional Kenyan clothing along with a racist comment.
Skip"
Kudos bro. It's a sign of character to call out the falsehood whether it's coming from "your side" or "their side"
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 21, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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Bluering wrote
"Karl, I'm sorry I'm late. You seem to be very aggressive for such a passive guy. You 'attack' people who are are warriors against violence yet defend people who propagate violence.
Am I wrong? I'm trying to understand you. Is vengence and counter-action always unjustified?"
You'll have to be more detailed in your question since now it's out of context. Remembering that Iraq had nothing at all to do with 9-11, and never attacked us, what kind of vengeance and counter-action are you talking about? They have a much better case to justify vengeance and counter-action against the US if you ask me.
I believe, really believe, in the golden rule. I put myself in the shoes of the other and ask myself what my thoughts and justifications would be if I was born there, or there, or there. I find that we, in the US, tend to think that our invasions and aggressive wars should be excused or ignored and are somehow "for good" and the wars, aggression and revenge of others always justify, on the other hand, extreme violence on our part, even if misdirected.
Most Americans would say that a serious attack on our soil would justify a nuclear attack in response, even at the risk of destroying life on the planet, and yet we go destroy Iraq based on what justification?
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 11:27pm PT
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Yeah Karl, sorry, I'm talking biblical. Hold on...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 11:33pm PT
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o.k., riley, go to an Obama convention or something....
Karl, your problem, as I see it, is that even if someone came to chop your line with you on 'em, you'd say, "Well, that God's (Vishnu, or somthing) will", I'll be reborn as the earth.
I understand that, I just don't really wanna die, especially with a son. I gotta teach him sh#t, God wants us to embrace this thing we got going. Ya know?
Please don't bring Repub's and Dem's into this......they have very little to do with things.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 11:35pm PT
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Up yours, Jody!!!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 11:44pm PT
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...right.....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 11:52pm PT
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you're really a child at heart, Riley, and head....good luck with that!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 21, 2008 - 11:59pm PT
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like I said....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2008 - 12:20am PT
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"Karl, your problem, as I see it, is that even if someone came to chop your line with you on 'em, you'd say, "Well, that God's (Vishnu, or somthing) will", I'll be reborn as the earth.
I understand that, I just don't really wanna die, especially with a son. I gotta teach him sh#t, God wants us to embrace this thing we got going. Ya know?
Please don't bring Repub's and Dem's into this......they have very little to do with things."
I guess you'll have to spell out your context more Bluering, type a little, I'm not getting it.
Remember though, that Jesus said that those who would try to save their lives would lose them......
Peace
Karl
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jun 22, 2008 - 01:11am PT
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you guys are all f*#king awesome...
...virtual hug!
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sawin
climber
So., CA.
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Jun 23, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
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Jody,WandaFuca,
these are interesting. Gas in 1979 dropped below $1.00
per gallon.
I purchased Putnam New Opportunity Funds at $19.00
NAV(Net Asset Value)per share in the 90's. I saw they
were the same about a year ago. This fund out performed
S&P for years.
Research Questions:
1. Have you researched per_se Van Guard SP Index 500 share
prices just as above?
2. Why do individual investments recover faster than mutual
funds (Annuties purchase mutual funds.)?
My liberal statement, statistics don't lie however liars use statistics.
My shares of choice. $36,000.00 a share in the 90's.
http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/
Todays price
BRK.A - Berkshire Hathaway Inc. (NYSE)
122200.00 -1800.00 (-1.45%) Jun 23 1:57pm ET
Open: 124000.00
High: 124600.00
Low: 121750.00
Volume: 682
Avg Vol: N/A
Mkt Cap: 189.26B
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Mar 18, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
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War is inevitable; War will always be with us because young men love it and old men love it in them.
War yields the human judgement of what is right to the provence of impartial and irrational violence.
... and even when war defends and protects us it remains the stuff of tragedy.
Your thread is a sad celebration.
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Rankin
climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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Yeah, no body kicks ass like the US of A, no doubt about it. Too bad these weren't the guys who attacked us. Oh well, maybe next time, but at least they're Arab. Woohoo! U!S!A! U!S!A! U!S!A! Jesus would be so proud!
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tTt
Social climber
right side
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Jul 16, 2010 - 02:51am PT
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first of all,i am not iraqian ,i just want to tell you my opinion:
wake up guys,its not the truth
do u think U.S.A soldiers are heroes because they kill civillians ?!!!!
civillians tried to defense and protect their home,
they are not terrorists,they are the iraqian resistance fighters,
they dont have satellites, F16,F22,tanks o the best weapons like america.
they just have some guns and bombs.
you say "where is allah"
allah gave them strength,great determination,helped them to beat their enemy and they already won,every body knows that U.S.A lost the war and now its getting out of iraq .
"where is allah"
u dont know any thing about allah ,
allah made them win,allah helped farmers and civillians to destroy their enemy in iraq or aphganistan,
allah made egypt beat israele in 1973 war,when U.S.A gave israele the best weapons,but egyptian main weapon was the help of allah and they won.
so dont talk about something which u dont know any thing about.
finally,u should know that allah ordered muslims not to harm a civillian,women,child of the enemy for nothing and not to kill animal or cut a tree of the enemy for no thing,
i am sad for what happends to U.S.A soldiers i saw some pictures on ariabian site and it wasnt good :
http://www.4flying.com/showthread.php?t=56225
i hope u.s.a will bring those soldiers back to their home.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jul 16, 2010 - 02:59am PT
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Well, tLt, who are you?
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tTt
Social climber
right side
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Jul 16, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
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"egypt lost in 1973" ???????!!!!
sorry man,thats not right,egypt took all sinai back,only 6 hours and most of israelian forces were destroyed,
israel had the best Fortificationsian on suez canal (by help of america )but israelian sildiers were running like rats from egyptian soldiers,
egypt could end israele but USA get her ass in ,egypt beat israele but it wasnt ready to beat america too so egyot stopped
i will tell u a true story of a real hero:
he was a soldier before 1973 and he saw israelian officer far away cleaning his shoes with egypian flag (when israele had sinai)so that soldier decided to make an oberation ,he started trainig and some day he started and went into israelian area,he ran 12 killometres forward ,he found a jeep car so he hid and attacked when it came near him then he found a bus fall of soldiers ..................
i dont know the details but by the end 24 iraelian soldiers were killed but that soldier went into jail(preson)cus he didnt follow ordars and did it with no permission.
and u say egypt didnt win .
u dont know any thing -_-
y dont know real heroes
u can search on google about 1973 war and u will find information
finally,i dont know why do u hate arabians and muslims !!!!!,i know some of them and they are not bad at all
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 16, 2010 - 03:14pm PT
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tTt - I'm no friend of Israel, but at least get your facts straight. From wiki:
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jul 16, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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Well tTt and Fattrad, Nobody "won".
But tTt, you're more incorrect than Fatty is.
The war had far-reaching implications for many nations. The Arab World, which had been humiliated by the lopsided rout of the Egyptian-Syrian-Jordanian alliance during the Six-Day War, felt psychologically vindicated by successes early in the conflict. In Israel, despite impressive operational and tactical achievements on the battlefield, the war effectively ended the sense of invincibility and complacency. The war also challenged many American assumptions and it pursued newfound efforts at mediation and peacemaking. These changes combined paved the way for the subsequent peace process. The Camp David Accords that followed brought the return of the Sinai to Egypt and normalized relations—the first peaceful recognition of Israel by an Arab country. Egypt continued its drift away from the Soviet Union and left the Soviet sphere entirely
tTt, I have no hate for Arabs. I lived in KSA for four years and know many progressive thinking Arabs. Are you progressive? Or do you want Islam to rule the world? What's your basic world view?
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tTt
Social climber
right side
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Jul 16, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
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egypt made a war to get siai and it succeeded
so egypt won
and i want to tell u that :Soviet Union gave egypt some weapons to just defense,not to attack
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tTt
Social climber
right side
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Jul 17, 2010 - 12:49am PT
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after 2 days egypt stopped because america got her ass in
any way egypt did what it wanted
search about air fighting and i hope u will find wright informtion
finally,israele took a land of palasinias and believe me soon it will be back
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jul 17, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
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i suggest having a safety session for the troops.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 17, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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tTt, is an obvious propagandist troll...
Israel could have wiped those schmucks off the map, but they chose restraint. They disabled the country and that was enough.
Put your own spin on it if you must, but Israel won and allowed an Egyptian retreat without decimating them...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jul 18, 2010 - 04:09pm PT
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I missed this the first time around. That mortar firing pic in the OP is f*#king awesome.
*edit*
Oh man I just read the Jody post telling people to "quit being so sensitive." That's almost as good.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
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Minerals,
Looks like you have exposed the true "weapons of mass destruction", "we have met the enemy and he is us".
Bluering . . . "Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings".
There is nothing good that can come out of your distorted, insane, perverted, propagandized, twisted and weaponized visions of good and evil, right and wrong.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
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Cragman,
Most of us are in fact descedants of European immigrants.
Far be it from me to impose what language is spoken upon anyone.
I had never seen the original post to this thread and when I did just today I could not help but speak out against the glamorization of death and destruction in the name of justice and truth. Just because it is the "American" way does not make it right. Just look at the sorry state this country is in as a result of such ignorance.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jul 18, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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Cragman,
I am not trying to dis on the United States . . . your suggestion of going to another country in order to see how good we have it here is tired and unoriginal, come up with another insight. I think we have squandered opportunities that could have made this country much greater than it is. Our role as aggressor and arms dealer has done little to promote a healthy future for ourselves and our children and has played a large role in the disastrous results we are living with today.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jul 18, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
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The Chief,
Whoa dude!
You are way out there . . . wow.
What century you livin' in? I am not promoting some fascist extremism . . . I am just saying that this country has been damaged by some very poor decision making, distortion and downright delusion.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jul 18, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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Cragman,
You got me all wrong. The dream is turning into a nightmare. I am grateful for everything that I have and for those who have sacrificed everything to allow this, including their lives. The problem is that this too has been used as a distortion in order to promote the unhealthy greed and unscrupulous self interest of the very few. Many have died in vain for the lies perpetrated under the guise of nationalism.
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tTt
Social climber
right side
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Jul 19, 2010 - 03:11am PT
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here is the true:
egyptian army mad a mistake when he left big distance between second group and the third of the army (or something like that)and america knew that(i dont know by satellite or planes )then america told israele to give it the best chance ,israel went to this big hole between suez and ismaillia but Resistance kicked their ass(i hate this word) so israelian forces Surround some egyptian forces ,egypt could destroy them,but the would kill egyptians
u know whats next
any way their was a problem between the leaders
there was a man called "saad el shazly"he wanted to destroy all israelian forces but president anwar el sadat refused cuz he knew america will get in
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 19, 2010 - 01:03pm PT
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Jolly Roger,
It wouldn't really be a bad idea. Pigeons need a place to sh#t too.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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I think the Original Post had some good points. Blowing things up seems really fun and satisfying, at least to some of the people pulling triggers and to some us looking at the pictures and videos.
But he also called it "Inefficient and overly expensive population control:"
In the long run, wars are subject to economic realities. Our war machine is extremely expensive to run. Civilians pay for it and have to be convinced it is worth paying for. As civilians become disenchanted with a war, we become less and less willing to pay for it.
Whenever I hear about multimillion dollar helicopters firing rockets worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to kill a few people (be they enemies or innocent bystanders), I think about how expensive and unsustainable it is (among many thoughts).
In the past, war was more clearly about plundering your neighbors. If somebody has a resource and you don't want to pay fair market value, then you can try to conquer them and just take it. But if the conquering is more expensive than the fair market value, it is not really worth it, other than just for the fun of conquering and destroying things.
One of the economic equations that I think about is this:
The 9-11 attacks were low tech and relatively cheap. Supposedly it took less than $100,000 to train 19 volunteers who were armed with box cutters costing a couple dollars each. Because of our policy of not resisting airline hijackers, those 19 men took over 4 planes and managed to hit 3 targets, So, for less than $100,000 in preparations, they destroyed 4 airplanes, killed 3,000 people, and destroyed several major buildings.
Our justification for attacking Afghanistan and Iraq is that we want to prevent a re enactment of 9-11. We have spent a few trillion dollars in that supposed goal. One hundred thousand dollars vs a few trillion and it is not at all clear that the few trillion is winning.
I don't think that the few trillion can win. I think this equation is unwinnable. I cannot win if whenever somebody spends 1 dollar to attack me, I spend 1 million dollars to defend myself.
The really crazy thing to me is that the actual defense against 9-11 was carried out by the passengers on the 4th plane.
The passengers of the 4th plane found out what was going on and realized that they, US citizens, were the first and last line of defense of their country. They realized that no government or superhero or military was going to rescue them. It was up to them to defend themselves and to defend the rest of us. They gave their lives, but it cost the rest of us nothing except the realization that we have to do the same in similar circumstances.
Since that time it is not possible to hijack an airline, because no crew or passenger will allow it. It has nothing to do with airport security. Nothing to do with killing people or blowing things up in Iraq or Afghanistan. It simply has to do with ordinary people knowing that they are responsible for the safety of their country and for those around them.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
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Yes, and I had lunch with Robert Oppenheimer.
We discussed WMD and the present state of low level Republican operatives.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Nov 16, 2010 - 04:28pm PT
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Indeed Fatrad, I will grant you this.
"There is no way to measure what the preventative value is of each missile being fired in Afghanistan is. Was that Taliban/Al-Queda member planning a bio attack on the US, we have no way of knowing."
Will you then agree that there is no way of knowing whether the result is positive or negative? Perhaps the target was not Taliban. Perhaps he was Taliban, but would have grown to be a great statesman leading the region to peace and prosperity. Perhaps he was a newspaper cameraman and a bodyguard. Perhaps he is just a soldier carrying an AK 47. Perhaps the target turns out to be Canadian soldiers. Perhaps the target was missed.
I don't think it effects the economics, though. If it costs trillions to battle thousands, eventually we run out of money or willingness.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Nov 16, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
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I am sure glad the military industrial complex runs this country, NOT.
Just think where that money could go and the GOOD it could do.
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Pennsylenvy
Gym climber
A dingy corner in your refrigerator
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Nov 16, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
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so doesn't this video bother anyone? I want to bitchslap a couple of these people in it. Once again proof that Kobe is a complete asswipe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYC7dFBNYMQ
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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Yeah, hard to not think of him as an opportunistic butthead after that.
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