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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:15pm PT
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Sean, sorry to hear about the snake bite, that sucks. Those bolders along the merced always felt pretty snaky to me when Jamie took me on his little tour. My friend Jon got bit on the hand too, hope you get off cheaper than he did.
Also, bad form knott using the kids to break your fall. That's why you bring em along, don't you know. :)
Anyway, use that 800# I gave you and call me, you should have plenty of time sitting in the hospy.
L8,
Pasha
P.S. FWIW, Sean Jones loves him some Rob Halford and will blast that sh#t at ear shattering levels at 1am while barrelling thru Death Valley at 80 mph in Kauk's old POS van.
True story.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:23pm PT
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"Same old crap. Different decade."
no sh#t rich.
and while i might be trying to see whatever self exonerating point you think you are making in the dozen posts you have made in this thread, all of them unrelated to the climb itself, as always, that huge chip on your shoulder is again blocking my view.
btw- if these guys could have just borrowed your trusty chisel, perhaps the slab would have seemed more reasonable on lead, and growing up coulda gone up ground up, and we'd all be 1700+posts poorer for it!
(now back OT, would chipping to hook to drill on lead on a free route be a question of style, or a question of ethics? i find it all very confusing! =)
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
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Also, I just wanted to say how glad I am that I live, climb, and develop routes in bumf*#k Idaho, where nobody gives a sh#t what, where, or how I put something up.
Hi Mojede!!!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:27pm PT
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Blair,
Thanks for the update. Definitely scary to have the face-to-face staredown and realize you were bitten, then jump blindly off! Glad to hear it's not worse. Hopefully problems with swelling, infection and necrosis will be avoided.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:29pm PT
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Hey cuz, it goin' well? Good comment about the kids taking the boulder fall-walking crash pads, I tell ya.
Matt, Ethic-deciding TO bring tools (hammer,chisel, drill) for the climb, Style-deciding on how and what to DO with said tools.
.....or not. :)
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:33pm PT
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Yeah cuz, all good here. The winter that won't end could fricken end already, been good sliding conditions for sure.
Built a woodie upstairs of the shop, been training like mad for the last 6 weeks, amazing how much you can change in that amount of time.
I think I can (maybe) send those V2's I flailed on last summer now.
OT, saw that the Paradise Valley was featured in the last Outside Magazine. Let me tell you how how well that worked out for North Idaho. Enjoy it while it lasted.
When's that batholith gig going down?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
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Blocking your view? What view would that be, Matt? I haven't seen any evidence over the years that you have a view. You, like many others on this thread, seem compelled to disparage yet another route you haven't done, offering critiques about "style" that reveal only your own narrow-mindedness.
One irony is that while you laud Harding, you utterly fail to apply his wisdom to any situation, but instead find yourself, yet again, on the wrong side. What do you think? Would Harding jump aboard your elitist critique of GU?
Every climber you would say "does it right" has employed "tactics" to get up. Every one of them. You have no basis to single any route out for special condemnation, nor criticize any FA teams.
My "chip" will shrink in proportion to the emerging silence of the Valley Christians. What will it take to shrink your chip?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 21, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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Did not know about OM--always the last, right?
"Age of the Batholith" bash--June 13th (fri) to June 22nd (sun). Spend a day, or a week. If you bring the fam, I can hook you up with more comfy crashins than dirt.
Paradise Valley was a lost cause in terms of land prostitution a while ago. East-Bozeman (Livingston) can over-run those crags ad infinitum, that's why I moved to Butte and the Batholith.
Publish the only guide to an area then move away--hehe, I'm laughing to the bank on that one, since I don't have to answer to anyone at the crags.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:12pm PT
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The kids are going to learn the swear words sometime anyway. It's good he also taught them about getting the poison out of a bad snake bite as soon as you can. Hopefully there's no permanent damage done to the finger.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:13pm PT
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Karl,
Way back several posts, you said:
Here's how things really work.
We're not going to agree.
There is a general feeling of what a true abomination is, they get chopped.
Growing Up falls short of that so the FA folks get a load of grief from the traditionalists instead.
The reception of a load of grief is a deterrent from other's emulating the strategy.
It's either that or "Don't ask, don't tell" like when folks use power drills to fix old anchors. (not that I've seen that for awhile.
It's a social ecosystem of pride and prestige. It takes care of itself except for a few bumps on the road and sometimes tension between styles. We live with it and it beats bureaucracy.
No question there is a certain social pressure exerted by threads such as this one and the occasional bolt chopping which influences at least some climbers toward and away from certain style choices. However, there's also evidence from history suggesting bolt chopping can backfire and embolden certain types onto more of the same. I certainly can speak from personal experience on that one from ye old Tuolumne days. Likewise, the suasion power of thread posting, campfire discussion, even the example and history (such as it is) of the admired and "greats," if I dare use that term, only goes so far. Nearly thirty years of style "debate" would seem to suggest same. So, my point is, if and when things get hot enough between the style camps, voluntary agreements and organizing is an option worth considering, even if all it renders is "OK, that's a sport cliff and that's a trad cliff(sport and trad defined as specifically as possible, maybe 'ground up' is the better divider given the discussion so far). See ya next year for revisions and updates." Call it the agree to disagree approach, operationalized by zone.
Yes, I realize what I'm suggesting has a bit of an unreal aspect, as perhaps you are implying by saying "here's how things really work." But reconsider what "work" means. If you mean, this is how it goes, I couldn't agree more - so far in Yosemite, it's example, past and living, fireside and web networking steering the ship. But if "work" means how things only can happen, then I'll reiterate there are some scattered and partial models around of local forums and committees which are worth consideration for a possible better way. The one at Pinnacles, for instance, was pretty informal but got agreement on ground up from now on (seems to be holding). Granted officials were hovering with proposal for no more bolts at all. And, it's a small area with lots of cliffs near trails and sensitive bird habitats, so conditions are different from Yosemite, but maybe not for long if major rap bolting gets going. Then there is the Eldorado model which I gather is a committee which must approve new bolted routes (not sure what style is allowed for bolt placement), but it has the dreaded official basis and climbers are not the only ones on the bolt approving board, gulp. But my point is what I'm suggesting "really works" in some places, meaning it's there and operative and better than what they had before or what was emerging, namely bolt fests, pretty brutal and divisive tensions between climbers and regulators threatening bolt bans.
As for "it's better than bureaucracy," depends on what you mean. I'm with you on most anything climbers can do voluntarily is better than government intervention. However, if you mean the organizing and agreements I'm suggesting between climbers is bureaucracy, then I'd suggest occasional pow wows between climbers may not be so burdensome. And even full blown voluntary organizations with some funding base and staff and place of business, like Access or the Alpine Club are hardly frightful bureaucracies.
Any time the government gets involved, they'll be regulating physical impacts like bolts or bivies, never style like ground up or rap (although fixed lines for more than 24 hours are technically illegal already)
Agreed. Far easier for them to simply ban bolting as they threatened at Pinnacles than worry about how the bolts are placed. However, my point is to consider agreements not only to tame the style warring but hold off regulators from their blunt force trauma approach.
In the world and in climbing, there's always going to be somebody doing something we don't like
Absolutely. There are many first "free" ascents on El Cap, for instance, without any bolting issue but so much previewing, falling, tension rests, and repeat attempts - call it bouldering in the sky - as to turn my stomach. But then I'm way old trad school where after a few falls and couple of revisits, it was someone else’s turn. However, my likes and dislikes in styles is not the point. In fact, the exact style preferences of all posters here is not the point. The point is when any conflict gets divisive enough - and this one on styles has been in that realm for some time - there may be better options to eternal wrangles and reliance on persuasion or looking the other way.
Thanks for the thoughts and good climbing.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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James
climber
in between climbs
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:18pm PT
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There's some A0 on the route right? If Sean rap bolted the rig why wasn't he able to free the whole thing? Is it one stopper move or a short tension traverse that will go free? Seems like if you're gonna rap the route, you should figure out a way to make sure it goes free.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:26pm PT
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I heard that madbolt pooped on thier bolts. I can't divulge my sources, but this witness, Knows!
Seriouslly though, what a bummer for Sean! That's got to be a bad place for a climber to get buzz-wormed, yikes. Heres vibes for a successful recovery!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:36pm PT
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Blocking your view? What view would that be, Matt?
well for starters, it would be my view that this thread is not about you
I haven't seen any evidence over the years that you have a view.
at least not one that you liked to hear about
You, like many others on this thread, seem compelled to disparage yet another route you haven't done, offering critiques about "style" that reveal only your own narrow-mindedness.
i know it's a long thread now, but that's not what i wrote in it, i said i'd probably rather see it rapped than chipped and drilled all the way up, even if that meant doing it on lead (maybe that's where you got so upset?)
One irony is that while you laud Harding, you utterly fail to apply his wisdom to any situation, but instead find yourself, yet again, on the wrong side. What do you think? Would Harding jump aboard your elitist critique of GU?
uhhhh-
you'll have to post a link to my 'laud[ing of] harding' and my 'elitist critique of GU' for me to know what you are babbling about there.
Every climber you would say "does it right" has employed "tactics" to get up. Every one of them. You have no basis to single any route out for special condemnation, nor criticize any FA teams.
how about if i just applaud these guys for not having a chisel in the quiver?
My "chip" will shrink in proportion to the emerging silence of the Valley Christians.
uhhhh-
what?
(are you watching that hub-ub in texas on CNN? stay OT here pal)
What will it take to shrink your chip?
how about if you post about WoS in the WoS threads?
last i checked, there was no shortage of those.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:43pm PT
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James,
There is a steep/smooth 60' headwall that Sean couldn't find a way to free. Hey you can only do so much when it's steep and there are no holds! So there is a 60' bolt ladder there. A0 or A1 depending on whether you use aiders, I guess?
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jenren
Trad climber
Sac, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
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RONNNNNN YOU should do the cable route!!!!! Make it a whole summer project!!!! IT IS SO AWESOME to catch an afternoon or two watching you doing things!!! : )
New to your world..but..I've had to catch my husband taking whippers while drilling (by hand) on lead the old fashion way..
Big Walls though..different story, TOTALLY OUT OF MY LEAGUE..
Peace to the climbing world and Tibet : )
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Apr 21, 2008 - 06:05pm PT
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I thought this thread had hit rock bottom around 1600 posts, when it turned into the testoterone laced FA lists from BITD.
Clearly, with the addition of Madbolter's drivel, it still has a way to go.
Post up everyone!! Tell us how GU is the "better way" and what great GU ascents you did bitd!!! I'll get the lotion...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 21, 2008 - 06:20pm PT
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The meat is off bone on this thread...slim pickins from now on.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 06:25pm PT
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"I'll get the lotion..."
"The meat is off bone..."
You guys are killin' me over here. This thread has most definitely taken a turn for the worst, at this point. hahaha
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 21, 2008 - 06:48pm PT
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just a few more slights, and a few more slighted, and we'll crest 2K posts, how can you guyz quit now?
=)
maybe when the topo is posted?
or if the 2nd ascent TR gets posted in this thread?
so close...
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