Anyone own/use Metolius, Pika or A5-Anker Ledges?

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Ben Rumsen

Social climber

No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )

Jan 24, 2005 - 03:54pm PT

I have a Fish Econo Ledge, a Pika and a BD. I don't see what's wrong with any of 'em. The Pika I got on close out at REI on line of all places for $99 and another $99 got a fly. It is lightweight, which is good for more out of the way climbs where you have to carry it a ways, just treat it a bit more careful. The Fish is bomber - but where's the " Econo Fly "? The BD is good but frigg'n heavy.

BigSky

Mountain climber

Big Sky Montana

Jan 24, 2005 - 05:51pm PT

Don't mean to hijck the thread, as I can't contribute insight on any of the ledges, but I thought Pete's premise for requesting help was a good (and valid) one.

I have reviewed stuff for various mags but stopped a couple of years ago. Some actually expect you to use the gear but I was contacted by an outdoor publication in advance of a special gear issue and the conversation went something like this;

Editor: "We need you to write some short reviews of some kayaking and climbing gear."

Me: "Cool. When do I get the stuff?"

Editor: "You don't. The deadlines are coming up too soon. We'll send you the marketing blurb for each item and you can just make stuff up."

I turned the gig down, although in retrospect I'm not sure why. Anyone expecting bedrock editorial integrity from an outdoor magazine ought to have their head examined.

Elcapinyoazz

Mountain climber

Anchorage, Alaska

Jan 24, 2005 - 11:47pm PT

And why should we not expect integrity and real reviews? See, your attitude is exactly the problem. "Oh, it's ok to bullshit your way through it, nobody expect an objective review" That's the attitude that is pervasive in those RAGS and the very reason why I subscribe to Alpinist and the AAJ and haven't read one of those pieces of kindling in years.

These are supposed to be our fellow climbers, our bros so to speak, givin' us the lowdown on the goods. But it's become defacto advertising. And since we are supposed to expect this, what is the value of the review in the first place? To give a little free column space to the faithful advertisers, a psuedo catalog entry pointing out the features of each complete with an editor's choice, which tends to be curiously correlated with the advertising revenue shelled out by the companies who's product are being "reviewed".

I asked why Fish's ledge was not listed, not because I really wanted to know (the answer is obvious) but to point out those reasons in a roundabout way. It's a f*#king bullshit scam job. Backroom dealing, non objective, out and out horsesh#t.

I bet C & S up in Washington could relate similar experiences with the mags from back in the 80s. Probably most of you clowns never even heard of C & S, save the few NW climbers that might be on this board.

Here's the only review you need: Russ's ledges are probably the best deal for your money. They are plenty bomber. I own a Fish single in addition to my BD double and it's served me well. And with a $60 billion/month trade deficit, we need to support homegrown businesses as much as possible. A little concept called the economic multiplier effect.

BigSky

Mountain climber

Big Sky Montana

Jan 25, 2005 - 11:33am PT

Most magazines are run for profit as a business and managed as part of a portfolio by a media conglomerate. Perhaps when Stammberger founded Climbing 35 years ago, it was about the climbing. Now it's about business, and the best you can hope for is some climbing in the margins. The editors do their best but you are right not to patronize such outlets if their methodology offends you. But they wouldn't exist if they were solely funded by newsstand buyers and subscribers. In exchange for their existence, they need to align themselves closely with advertisers. And although the content suffers in comparison to 20 years ago, they still publish fine writing on occasion.

I'm glad you support Alpinist. Please continue to do so and subscribe your friends before they go the way of the more commercial mags. They are in tight financial shape and are being forced to run more ads because they are unable to exist solely on the revenues generated by folks like yourself.

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Jan 25, 2005 - 11:37am PT

LONG LIVE ALPINIST!

up2top

Big Wall climber

Phoenix, AZ

Jan 25, 2005 - 12:16pm PT

But, BigSky, I don't think you don't get it. Aside from advertising dollars, the mags need subscribers to grow their revenue. Not just the casual person who picks up one of their publications at the gear shop. What keeps people from subscribing? I'm no marketing expert, but it's my guess that lack of relevance and credibility is at least part of the problem. In this case, people who really climb will be able to see through some bullsh*t review that is based on the "marketing blurb" from a given company. If I see that sh*t, the mag loses credibility.

When an industry magazine starts slanting their reviews to favor the products of those companies who advertise with them, and leaves out true objectivity and reviews based on experience that magazine erodes the readership of it's base. The base readership stops subscribing and the magazine eventually tanks. The industry is rife with these kind of examples. It happens with audio review magazines, auto mags, off-road mags, etc. Publications come and go for many reasons, but one of the primary of those is lack of credibility.

This isn't to say Pete's input and experience wouldn't be credible. To the contrary, I'm not implying for a second that he's misrepresenting his experience with nights on the wall. But those nights have been in the FISH ledge! Any request for review of other ledges by R&I via Pete's input is just bullshit if he hasn't actually tested the products himself. He can certainly use the experience and input from others to bolster his review, but to use that commentary as the basis of his piece is low-brow filler garbage.

Ed

BigSky

Mountain climber

Big Sky Montana

Jan 25, 2005 - 12:35pm PT

Ed,

I am not disagreeing with anything you or ElCap have said - your points all have a degree of validity. I don't disagree that real climbers can smell BS reviews. Most times, a reviewer will disclose less than real world test environments, anyway (ie "I set this tent up in my backyard and sprayed it with a hose for 3 hours.") I also agree that to pass someone else's opinion (ie hearsay) off as your own critical thinking is wrong.

And I don't disagree with your point that after things seem inauthentic to the original readership / subscription base, those original folks will desert the magazine. But my point is that magazines are for-profit entities, and more of that profit is driven by the advertising department than the editorial and subscription departments. As a result, the look and feel of the magazine will reflect that.

This is also why you see content moving towards shorter, pelletized articles and things like "How Not to Rap off the End of Your Rope." Getting longtime subscribers to renew doesn't provide as much revenue as getting noobs to buy the mag, so they let you fall by the wayside. It's tough, like when you realize your favorite band isn't making music for you anymore. And at that point, it's your right to spend your money someplace else.

WBraun

climber

Jan 25, 2005 - 12:50pm PT

And this is why capitalism does not work. If one injects the wrong numbers in the formula or uses the wrong formula the end result is always defective. Why do we thru our illusion, always believe in the defective???

up2top

Big Wall climber

Phoenix, AZ

Jan 25, 2005 - 12:56pm PT

If that's true, then that demonstrates my ignorance of the economics that drive the mag industry. I would think that subscription rate and renewals is second only to advertising dollars in terms of fund generation. If it's true that the n00bs and impulse buyers at the outdoor stores put more money in the till, then I see where you're coming from.

It's a sad state of affairs.

Pete, I hope for your sake (for PETE'S sake! haha...ha...ah, never mind) you make it clear where your info is coming from in that article. I'm sure you'd agree that it would be a much better read if you could use the experience others have had on those ledges only as a supporting discussion for the real meat of the article -- your own tests in real world situations.

Ed

WBraun

climber

Jan 25, 2005 - 01:00pm PT

Yes, yes Pete....try it as an experiment....tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth and see what happens. Are you listening Pete?

climber

NOT Fresno

Jan 25, 2005 - 01:44pm PT

It's the same marketing that's corrupting all media. Like radio stations, they don't play what you want to hear, they play what will drive the fewest people away. None of them are happy but they're too apathetic to change stations. Yay, Clear Channel.

Actually, I fear my problem with Pete's review has been revealed when he says the A5 is excellent with one minor flaw. They always say that. Everything goddamn thing is great with one minor flaw. (These five dollar cams are great. If I had to complain, it would be that the cams only hold one KN. But otherwise I absolutely recommend them...) Everything gets between three and a half and five stars. Every shoe is the same. Every book, no matter how stupid or crappy, "needs to be on every climber's bookshelf." Every bouldering vid is cool, which is weird, since I've noticed they all blow.

When I see a reviewer in a mag come out and say "This portaledge is a steaming pile of sh#t and you'd have to be a f*#kwit to spend cash on it" ... THEN I'll read the reviews again. Do it, Pete. Be the first.

up2top

Big Wall climber

Phoenix, AZ

Jan 25, 2005 - 02:02pm PT

He'll have a real opportunity if he gets out and actually tests that Pika.

Ed

mike hartley

climber

Jan 25, 2005 - 05:30pm PT

In (slight) defense of the Pika ledge - I bought one because I could get it on the cheap. Would I do it again? Probably not but I have spent about 6 nights in it and its served me reasonably well. I've only used it for rope-solos so having a light ledge has been helpful. It's reasonably easy to set up and I can adjust it while I'm on it. The fly kept the rain out during two stormy nights but not having a pole sucked. I'll add one before I go out next time. If the wind got really wild I think a lard-ass like myself could bend the frame but it hasn't happened yet. So its a lot better than a hammock but you know you are getting Walmart quality when you buy Pika. Buy Fish unless you are broke.

Melissa

Big Wall climber

oakland, ca

Jan 25, 2005 - 05:47pm PT

I looked at an old climbing or R&I review of ledges as well as some other opinions on the internet before I bought mine...so this stuff does inform people's purchases. Like most people, probably, I hadn't exactly tried them all out before I bought one. I got the Pika single for two reasons...it was the lightest, and it was the cheapest (I got it and the fly for 60% off at REI).

I haven't speant enough time in it (or in other ledges) to recognize any of its shortcomings except that the tube fittings were a little sticky. My one extneded portaledge camping experience was on my partner's Metolius double. That ledge was much more complicated to get set up and level, but the difference was probably more one of double vs. single than anything that had to do with the brand. It functions OK so far and continues to be much lighter and less bulky than other ledges that I've looked at or had the pleasure of lugging around.

Trad climber

Berkeley, CA

Jan 25, 2005 - 05:51pm PT

Not to hijack the thread, but this discussion brings to mind an experience I had at OR last year.

After the show ended one night, we decided to go for a swim at the indoor pool of the hotel where we were staying. It was a pretty fancy hotel, and we had to register at the desk and sign in with our room number to get to the pool and spa. We were informed at check in that we could use the pool, but had to be respectful of the group already using the pool area. We walked through the opulent and gaudy entrance to the pool, and immediately my jaw hit the floor. One of my friends who works for Prana was in the room, along with four other stylishly clad women, a huge rack of clothes and acessories, and several of the female editors (and one male) of a well known "outdoor" magazine were laid back in lounge chairs, receiving manicures and pedicures, wine in hand, and were being 'shown' the latest clothing line. The women, excepting my friend, all worked for a publicity company hired by Prana, and as the editors were being pampered, they would take out a top and bottom, parade them in front of the supine editors, and extoll the virtues of the latest piece of essential "climbing clothing." My business partner and I sat in the hot tub watching this spectacle go on for over an hour. Every single piece of clothing in the new line was displayed to the editors, who nodded smilingly as their feet were rubbed down and they got drunk on free wine.

Remember that the next time you read a glowing review in a magazine about the latest and greatest piece of gear that you *must* have. This incident has changed completely the way I look at those magazines and their reviews. When Outdoor magazine runs their 'gear guide' I now know exactly what the process is that goes into choosing what is included and what is not. Theres nothing that I can say as I am a consumer, like everybody else, and thus help perpetuate the whole process, but this spectacle was a shock to me, never having considered the massive amount of promotion and marketing (and pampering) that goes into the sale of these clothes and other products.

The next time you read a gear review, how do you know that it's an informed review? How do you know that the product was even tested before said review was written?? It just seems a little pathetic to me that these products are being fed to consumers but aren't actually being reviewed.

Melissa

Big Wall climber

oakland, ca

Jan 25, 2005 - 05:58pm PT

Thanks for the story. From the few (non-climbing-related) trade shows that I've been too, I'd guess that your experience is probably typical of most industries.

Matt

Trad climber

San Francisco

Jan 25, 2005 - 06:11pm PT

so lemme get this straight-

because we all know that CREDIBILITY is so dear to certain people w/ their public/internet personas, what we should expect to read in the reviews will go something like this:

"i have spent many nights (even the large part of more than a few days) hanging off the side of el cap on a portaledge, so i know what i am talking about. that said, i did not test these products out in the real world, but instead i hung them up in my garage and read my email. generally i choose not to take my ledge apart and reassemble it daily because i haul open, so don't look to me for any advice or input if that is among your concerns. as far as durability and comfort, i can give you my best guess (which may save you the 15 minutes it would take you to check each one out yourself), but i am not even going to discuss the product that i myself use when i go outside and actually depend on my gear. these magazine guys are paying me to say all of this to you sorry suckas, so spend freely, all you young 1st time big-wallers!"

pretty ironic that condi rice's confirmation hearings are also in the news today. she was just 'selling' too, right?

bestbefore

climber

Jan 25, 2005 - 06:14pm PT

At risk of pissing everyone off by not slagging Pete, I think his approach to this review makes a lot of sense. Not that I agree that opening the ledges on his living room floor constitutes reasonable due diligence, mind you. But seeking input from the largest possible number of users seems the right thing to do.

There is a general sentiment expressed here that these ledges should all be tested on the Big Stone or somewhere similar, and I agree this would be great. But if Pete sets of with Anker's latest luxury box for a smooth ride up the Cap, enjoying beautiful sunsets and gentle breezes, how much more will he really learn than he would spending a few hours hanging out at his local crag, or even gym? Is it easy to assemble? To break down? Easy to adjust? What happens when i jump on it? Does it feel solid if I treat it rough? All this a user, especially an experienced user, can explore a few feet off the ground.

The most important information people are looking for in "real world" testing is "what happens when you get caught in an October storm and get the living sh#t beaten out of you for days on end?" People love and trust the Fish ledges because they know the answer to that question, thanks to the testimonials of hundreds of users over very many years.

Not even the most energetic reviewer could hope to go out and find enough storms to get stuck in to answer this question, even assuming he had a) enough time before deadline and b) the inclination to get beaten to sh#t repeatedly in his quest for truth.

So, to me, it makes absolute sense to seek input from a wider community of greater or lesser experts which, collectively, has probably ridden these things through all kinds of trials and tribulations. And this input, accurately identified as coming from the community, should be part of any review of this kind.

All that said, Pete, not being able to transport them to the Valley is a pretty lame excuse. Fly them all down, try them all out, then sell one or all to cover your excess baggage charges. Bet you turn a profit!