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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 23, 2005 - 03:04pm PT
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Hi y'all,
I have acquired one of each of these babies to do a review for one of the climbing magazines.
So far I have only uncrated the A5-Anker double - I think it's called the Cabana [duh], but it's beauty, eh? Burly construction, easy to assemble, all sorts of cool features and benefits. Superb fly, too! Hell, you can acquire three different flies depending on your needs! Only one little complaint, which I shall reveal in my review. And of course it comes with those end tubes that make the melodious jangling sounds around sunset on the Big Stone.
It is probable I will not have the opportunity to actually try the portaledges out on the wall [much though I would like to!] because I can't afford the extra weight of three ledges plus flies in my airplane baggage down to Yosemite this spring. And I suspect the Editor will want the review sooner rather than later.
So I would love to hear from any of y'all who have used the thangs, and what you like and dislike about them. Manufacturers *do* listen to what you have to say, so here's your chance.
Besides, some of the help you give me could make my job that much easier. It would be inconsistent with Dr. Piton's modus operandi to do any more work than he absolutely had to.
And a preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with.
Cheers,
The Doc
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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Jan 23, 2005 - 03:40pm PT
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WTF? You are going to write a review and not even test the farkin things in a real world environment? Lame.
And they wonder why people call the rags worthless.
Until you've put them all together at a hanging belay, by yourself, in the dark, you ain't qualified to opine on them. Period.
And where is the Fish ledge in the review?
I've slept in all three of them ledges you list and I wouldn't trade my BD for any of 'em.
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Jan 23, 2005 - 03:42pm PT
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I have a An older A5 double that i bought from my dad for like 170$ its pretty damn comphy. My only complaint is Its too short and kinda tight for two.
My friend gave me a Brand new Pika single it had never been used and only set up once. We took it on an attempt of
Re-animator I stood up on it right after setting it up and the poles f*#king bent all crooked. I wasnt even able to take it apart. plus the the suspension system SUCKED!!
No on Pika
~TY~
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2005 - 04:01pm PT
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If the mags were willing to pay for either some extra postage down to Yosemite, or to pay for my extra pig on the airplane, then I would be more than happy to try the things out on the wall. An extra bag on the airplane is at least a hundred bucks, and some of those bastard airlines only let you bring two fifty-pounders instead of the usual seventies. And you can well imagine the monumental pile of gear I have to lug down there, even though most of it is left in the hands of a trusted friend.
It is easy enough for me to set the things up in the dark in the basement whilst hanging against the wall in my aiders. However I almost *never* set my ledge up on the wall - I flag the thing pretty much exclusively. Fish did not send a ledge to this magazine, though I am not aware if he had been asked or not. If he wasn't asked, and reads this, I could tell him where to send one.
I'd like to believe I can tell you plenty from looking at how the things are constructed, that's for sure. I'm spent enough bloody nights in a portaledge [over 250, all in my Fish double] that I know a bit about the things. I know exactly what I'm looking for, and what I like and dislike. But the review will come with the "not wall tested" caveat, unless I drag my lazy ass out to the local cliff. The probability of this happening will increase proportionally with both temperature and the willingness of a hottie to come help "christen" them.
And yeah, I agree, it's a bit lame. Sorry.
That's why I'm asking you guys, eh?
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StyMingersfink
climber
the 51st state.... denial
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Jan 23, 2005 - 04:36pm PT
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Perhaps the rags, err, mags, would like to find someone willing to ACTUALLY FIELD TEST them, rather than offer an opinion based on how they look and set up in a garage, or second hand opinion.
I would kindly offer my services if this were the case. Feel free to contact me for a shipping adress. This will probably never happen, for as it's common knowledge "Not WHO you KNOW..." I don't pretend to participate in the rest of the saying.
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Sandbag
Mountain climber
Louisville, Co
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Jan 23, 2005 - 04:51pm PT
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Hey Pete,
Have you thought of just shipping the bloody things via the surface and just pick them up when you arrive. You have to get ground transport to the wall anyway, because i know they dont land jets(yet anyway) at the base of El Cap. Just my .02 of logic for the day.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Nor. CA
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Jan 23, 2005 - 04:55pm PT
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So are you going to make proper mention of the fish ledge, or are you going to completely tool out to just the big names? Especially the econoledge should get mentioned, it a whopping 3.5-4 times cheaper than the A5 ledges. We just need to get russ to get that budget fly out, my sewing sucks.
Please mention where they and their components are made. Sweat shop in asia? Made in the US? Made in the US by fellow climbing bums? It matters to some of us. I feel better knowing my dough is contributing to Russ' liver disease.
Seems to me that the bare minimum testing would be to sleep on them a couple nights each hanging off of some stone. Particularly I would expect the most piss poor review of a ledge to include commentary on what the experience of setting them up while free hanging on a mostly blank wall is like. Preferably you would set them up in a few common features (dihedral and face, overhung and slabby) and make sure there aren't suprises. I don't care if it's cold, or no underage chicks will spend a few nights with you. Get off your're Canadian Assassin arse and do a good job, less they figure out your main qualification is your ego and fire you.
One of my pet peeves for reviews is claims of durability without some actual testing. The haul bags with ledges inside should take a half mile ride hanging off your bumper with a 3m cord to roughly mimic a few trips up routes with slabby sections. Toss them off your roof a dozen times onto concrete and see if you can still set them up, or if the tubes ends and such are flimsy enough to be easily damaged through moderately rough handling.
What about service? If they survive all the previous crap, bash a tube end with your hammer and put a few inch slash in the bed then get a buddy to send them all back (for anonimity) and see if they repair it quickly and cheaply. See if they are cool enough to send the repaired ledge directly to him in the valley like most any real climber might need. Find out how much a replacement haulbag will cost you.
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dirtbagaaron
Trad climber
el cap dreamin'
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Jan 23, 2005 - 05:01pm PT
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hey wanna give me one when you're done? i'll pay shipping. come on. help a brother out.
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Jan 23, 2005 - 06:23pm PT
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Dont forget to mention my info on the pika ledge PETE!!! those things are purely 100% shit! I did real field testing on it! I know! They Suck
And really how good are Fish ledges im interested?
~TY~
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 23, 2005 - 07:38pm PT
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Pete
If you want, you could send me the ledge, or ledges UPS and I'll hold it for you till you get here.
Werner
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 23, 2005 - 08:41pm PT
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I have the older A5 ledge. it's good, only problem I have with it is that it's a royal pain in the ass to get the end bars seated all the way into the corner peices. Takes a bit of magic and a prayer to get them in all the way and straight. It has also developed some stiny holes from wall grit.
still, it's good and I just bought another one for $155 w/tax+shipping off Conrad's site.
http://www.ankerclimbingequipment.com/sale.shtml
[edit:] oooops, sorry ALL GONE! :(
I liked the Fish single too.
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johnhenry
Big Wall climber
Tokyo/Honolulu
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Jan 24, 2005 - 08:57am PT
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In point of fact, I have owned the metolius and pika ledge, and just bought the A5 ledge Lamb-one is refering to. Quite a steal at $150. I couldn't get a ledge on pro-deal for that price.
The Pika ledge was short and cheap. It was my first ledge.
I really didn`t know how to set the thing up properly, so I called Pika. This is damn hilarious. The dude who picked up the phone tried to belittle me with the old "if you bought a ledge, you should know how to set one up" gag. Then, get this, in the process of speaking to me on a portable phone, he falls over and breaks his ankle. He screamed into the receiver that he had to go and seek medical attention. The next day he called me back and said his ankle was in a cast and basically said, " where were we..." I said, "in a nutshell, you were calling me an idiot, before you fell over and hurt yourself..." Classic. I actually didn't have any difficulties with the ledge the 4 or so odd times I used it.
The Metolius ledge is the cat's meow and, actually Pete, I tried to show you mine, but you seem rather uninterested at the time. The side-entry of the corners reduces sooo much of the headache of setting up the ledge. The spreader bar makes the rig drum tight and it is nice and long. The side poles slide together without any coaxing. All you have to do is straightnen them out and they join themselves. I wish I had'nt sold it, but cash was short and I needed to get to japan.
I look forward to trying out the bargin A5 ledge I just bought. Lambone, are the buckles on that thing plastic?
I haven't seen mine yet (it was shipped to Portland, OR to a buddies house). My buddy took a picture and sent it to me and it was a six point ledge, I thought the sale unit was a four point. Anyhow, I can't wait to take it and my new Silent Partner for a spin in the Valley this May. If I don't solo El Cap, let me die trying...
sorry for the sake inspired diatribe...
cheers,
john
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop is DEAD, long live JT
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Jan 24, 2005 - 02:17pm PT
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Quick boil down of thread:
We have not been contacted by the mags for any review. We rarely are. Pick any two of the following as to why:
1. We don't advertise in the mags anymore.
2. I think most reviews are scant at best.
3. I think the mags play favorites and the reviews are biased.
4. Our product has not really changed much in the last decade or so, so there is no latest and greatist feature to crow about.
5. Personality conflict with a majority of editors, publishers, reviewers, columnists, accountants, etc. I can't imagine why.
6. The mags blow..... probably a byproduct of #5.
7. We never seem to have any ledges to send them.
here is a nutshell review/overview IMO, unbiased as a consumer, so back off lawyers:
Fish- Time tested bomber, easy to set up. Super durable. Best value for the money and a great guy to boot. Send him money. Web only sales.
Pika: please....... bad knock off of old A5 stuff. Word on the street is not good.
Metolius: great product in the higher price range. Good engineering and really nice fly made by Mountain Hardwear. Heavy?? Hmmmm. Only heard good things about this ledge.
Anker: was A5. Vanity line. If you need a really nice $8000 portaledge, look here, then buy Metolius for much less.
BD- Didn't they quit making ledges? One recall too many I guess. Perhaps the line is in for a reworking.
With as many nights as Pete has spent in our ledge, he could write a review in his sleep. I wonder if the mags will edit it out??? In fairness to you guys, the mags should give you all the info and let you decide.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Jan 24, 2005 - 02:21pm PT
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What good is a review by some guy who was too lazy to actually lug the product out to a cliff and test it out?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 24, 2005 - 02:24pm PT
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John,
RE: A5 ledge
yes the buckles are plastic, your standard fastex thing. they work ok.
so the one they sent you is 6-point suspension, huh thats wierd. the photo their web site shows a 4-point, just like mine above. I didn't think they made a 6-point...
FWIW-
I liked Fish's single ledge much better then the A5. It was easier to set up (getting the corner pieces in), and the 6-point suspension seemed to be less "shifty." However I got a good deal on the A5 and couldn't pass it up.
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Jonny D
Social climber
Lost Angelez, Kalifornia
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Jan 24, 2005 - 02:43pm PT
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I'm curious to know why the BD ledges got recalled. We used one (the double) on our last wall and it was far easier to set up than the A5. It's a little heavier though, especially their bombproof fly.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 24, 2005 - 02:47pm PT
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Only the first edition of the BD ledges were recalled (made in 97?), they had cheap rivets and they made them stronger. Not many of these were made, so it's likely the one you were on is bomber. The good ones have brass rivets...check the BD website.
I'm sure they discontinued making them because they wern't generating a profit.
I like the BD double, but ended up selling it because I hate doubles.
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wildone
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 24, 2005 - 03:02pm PT
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C'mon Rhodo-Router, the ONLY place you can possibly test a ledge is Yosemite. And everybody knows that there is not a single choss pile anywhere in all of Canada to do real world testing...
Lame.
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macgyver
Social climber
Oregon
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Jan 24, 2005 - 03:28pm PT
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I am an engineer. I work in R & D. My job is to make or break the assumptions/dreams/trials done on lab scale and make it happen in the real world.
RULE #1
ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE IN THE LABORATORY.
BUT IT DOESNT MEAN SH#T UNTIL YOU TAKE IT TO THE FIELD.
I will gladly take any ledges and drag them up and down some slabby granite with heavy winds (probably the best place to test durability) and go to town on a ledge.
Otherwise it is all "big wall theory".
I may be big wall gumby but I know a little about product testing and something smells fishy here.
It would be great if climbers had a gear guide similar to the one done by www.backpackgeartest.org but there is probably not enough of a demand. It is a nice site where you can see the testers credentials and separate initial bells and whistles from long term durability.
rock
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Wheatus
Social climber
CA
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Jan 24, 2005 - 03:47pm PT
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I have used both the old A5 double and the relatively new Metolius double. The metolius is wider and longer. Overall the Metolius is more comfortable to sleep on. The only flaw is that it is more difficult to assemble while at hanging belay. The spreader bar is great for eliminating sagging and rolling into your partner but hard to snap in place. If you are large like me then I would choose the Metolius.
I can't tell you about the Metolius fly since I have not used it yet.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Jan 24, 2005 - 03:54pm PT
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I have a Fish Econo Ledge, a Pika and a BD. I don't see what's wrong with any of 'em. The Pika I got on close out at REI on line of all places for $99 and another $99 got a fly. It is lightweight, which is good for more out of the way climbs where you have to carry it a ways, just treat it a bit more careful. The Fish is bomber - but where's the " Econo Fly "? The BD is good but frigg'n heavy.
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BigSky
Mountain climber
Big Sky Montana
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Jan 24, 2005 - 05:51pm PT
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Don't mean to hijck the thread, as I can't contribute insight on any of the ledges, but I thought Pete's premise for requesting help was a good (and valid) one.
I have reviewed stuff for various mags but stopped a couple of years ago. Some actually expect you to use the gear but I was contacted by an outdoor publication in advance of a special gear issue and the conversation went something like this;
Editor: "We need you to write some short reviews of some kayaking and climbing gear."
Me: "Cool. When do I get the stuff?"
Editor: "You don't. The deadlines are coming up too soon. We'll send you the marketing blurb for each item and you can just make stuff up."
I turned the gig down, although in retrospect I'm not sure why. Anyone expecting bedrock editorial integrity from an outdoor magazine ought to have their head examined.
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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Jan 24, 2005 - 11:47pm PT
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And why should we not expect integrity and real reviews? See, your attitude is exactly the problem. "Oh, it's ok to bullshit your way through it, nobody expect an objective review" That's the attitude that is pervasive in those RAGS and the very reason why I subscribe to Alpinist and the AAJ and haven't read one of those pieces of kindling in years.
These are supposed to be our fellow climbers, our bros so to speak, givin' us the lowdown on the goods. But it's become defacto advertising. And since we are supposed to expect this, what is the value of the review in the first place? To give a little free column space to the faithful advertisers, a psuedo catalog entry pointing out the features of each complete with an editor's choice, which tends to be curiously correlated with the advertising revenue shelled out by the companies who's product are being "reviewed".
I asked why Fish's ledge was not listed, not because I really wanted to know (the answer is obvious) but to point out those reasons in a roundabout way. It's a f*#king bullshit scam job. Backroom dealing, non objective, out and out horsesh#t.
I bet C & S up in Washington could relate similar experiences with the mags from back in the 80s. Probably most of you clowns never even heard of C & S, save the few NW climbers that might be on this board.
Here's the only review you need: Russ's ledges are probably the best deal for your money. They are plenty bomber. I own a Fish single in addition to my BD double and it's served me well. And with a $60 billion/month trade deficit, we need to support homegrown businesses as much as possible. A little concept called the economic multiplier effect.
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BigSky
Mountain climber
Big Sky Montana
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Jan 25, 2005 - 11:33am PT
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Most magazines are run for profit as a business and managed as part of a portfolio by a media conglomerate. Perhaps when Stammberger founded Climbing 35 years ago, it was about the climbing. Now it's about business, and the best you can hope for is some climbing in the margins. The editors do their best but you are right not to patronize such outlets if their methodology offends you. But they wouldn't exist if they were solely funded by newsstand buyers and subscribers. In exchange for their existence, they need to align themselves closely with advertisers. And although the content suffers in comparison to 20 years ago, they still publish fine writing on occasion.
I'm glad you support Alpinist. Please continue to do so and subscribe your friends before they go the way of the more commercial mags. They are in tight financial shape and are being forced to run more ads because they are unable to exist solely on the revenues generated by folks like yourself.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 25, 2005 - 11:37am PT
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LONG LIVE ALPINIST!
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jan 25, 2005 - 12:16pm PT
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But, BigSky, I don't think you don't get it. Aside from advertising dollars, the mags need subscribers to grow their revenue. Not just the casual person who picks up one of their publications at the gear shop. What keeps people from subscribing? I'm no marketing expert, but it's my guess that lack of relevance and credibility is at least part of the problem. In this case, people who really climb will be able to see through some bullsh*t review that is based on the "marketing blurb" from a given company. If I see that sh*t, the mag loses credibility.
When an industry magazine starts slanting their reviews to favor the products of those companies who advertise with them, and leaves out true objectivity and reviews based on experience that magazine erodes the readership of it's base. The base readership stops subscribing and the magazine eventually tanks. The industry is rife with these kind of examples. It happens with audio review magazines, auto mags, off-road mags, etc. Publications come and go for many reasons, but one of the primary of those is lack of credibility.
This isn't to say Pete's input and experience wouldn't be credible. To the contrary, I'm not implying for a second that he's misrepresenting his experience with nights on the wall. But those nights have been in the FISH ledge! Any request for review of other ledges by R&I via Pete's input is just bullshit if he hasn't actually tested the products himself. He can certainly use the experience and input from others to bolster his review, but to use that commentary as the basis of his piece is low-brow filler garbage.
Ed
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BigSky
Mountain climber
Big Sky Montana
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Jan 25, 2005 - 12:35pm PT
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Ed,
I am not disagreeing with anything you or ElCap have said - your points all have a degree of validity. I don't disagree that real climbers can smell BS reviews. Most times, a reviewer will disclose less than real world test environments, anyway (ie "I set this tent up in my backyard and sprayed it with a hose for 3 hours.") I also agree that to pass someone else's opinion (ie hearsay) off as your own critical thinking is wrong.
And I don't disagree with your point that after things seem inauthentic to the original readership / subscription base, those original folks will desert the magazine. But my point is that magazines are for-profit entities, and more of that profit is driven by the advertising department than the editorial and subscription departments. As a result, the look and feel of the magazine will reflect that.
This is also why you see content moving towards shorter, pelletized articles and things like "How Not to Rap off the End of Your Rope." Getting longtime subscribers to renew doesn't provide as much revenue as getting noobs to buy the mag, so they let you fall by the wayside. It's tough, like when you realize your favorite band isn't making music for you anymore. And at that point, it's your right to spend your money someplace else.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2005 - 12:50pm PT
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And this is why capitalism does not work. If one injects the wrong numbers in the formula or uses the wrong formula the end result is always defective. Why do we thru our illusion, always believe in the defective???
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jan 25, 2005 - 12:56pm PT
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If that's true, then that demonstrates my ignorance of the economics that drive the mag industry. I would think that subscription rate and renewals is second only to advertising dollars in terms of fund generation. If it's true that the n00bs and impulse buyers at the outdoor stores put more money in the till, then I see where you're coming from.
It's a sad state of affairs.
Pete, I hope for your sake (for PETE'S sake! haha...ha...ah, never mind) you make it clear where your info is coming from in that article. I'm sure you'd agree that it would be a much better read if you could use the experience others have had on those ledges only as a supporting discussion for the real meat of the article -- your own tests in real world situations.
Ed
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2005 - 01:00pm PT
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Yes, yes Pete....try it as an experiment....tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth and see what happens. Are you listening Pete?
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Jan 25, 2005 - 01:44pm PT
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It's the same marketing that's corrupting all media. Like radio stations, they don't play what you want to hear, they play what will drive the fewest people away. None of them are happy but they're too apathetic to change stations. Yay, Clear Channel.
Actually, I fear my problem with Pete's review has been revealed when he says the A5 is excellent with one minor flaw. They always say that. Everything goddamn thing is great with one minor flaw. (These five dollar cams are great. If I had to complain, it would be that the cams only hold one KN. But otherwise I absolutely recommend them...) Everything gets between three and a half and five stars. Every shoe is the same. Every book, no matter how stupid or crappy, "needs to be on every climber's bookshelf." Every bouldering vid is cool, which is weird, since I've noticed they all blow.
When I see a reviewer in a mag come out and say "This portaledge is a steaming pile of sh#t and you'd have to be a f*#kwit to spend cash on it" ... THEN I'll read the reviews again. Do it, Pete. Be the first.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jan 25, 2005 - 02:02pm PT
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He'll have a real opportunity if he gets out and actually tests that Pika.
Ed
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mike hartley
climber
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Jan 25, 2005 - 05:30pm PT
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In (slight) defense of the Pika ledge - I bought one because I could get it on the cheap. Would I do it again? Probably not but I have spent about 6 nights in it and its served me reasonably well. I've only used it for rope-solos so having a light ledge has been helpful. It's reasonably easy to set up and I can adjust it while I'm on it. The fly kept the rain out during two stormy nights but not having a pole sucked. I'll add one before I go out next time. If the wind got really wild I think a lard-ass like myself could bend the frame but it hasn't happened yet. So its a lot better than a hammock but you know you are getting Walmart quality when you buy Pika. Buy Fish unless you are broke.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Jan 25, 2005 - 05:47pm PT
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I looked at an old climbing or R&I review of ledges as well as some other opinions on the internet before I bought mine...so this stuff does inform people's purchases. Like most people, probably, I hadn't exactly tried them all out before I bought one. I got the Pika single for two reasons...it was the lightest, and it was the cheapest (I got it and the fly for 60% off at REI).
I haven't speant enough time in it (or in other ledges) to recognize any of its shortcomings except that the tube fittings were a little sticky. My one extneded portaledge camping experience was on my partner's Metolius double. That ledge was much more complicated to get set up and level, but the difference was probably more one of double vs. single than anything that had to do with the brand. It functions OK so far and continues to be much lighter and less bulky than other ledges that I've looked at or had the pleasure of lugging around.
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ct
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 25, 2005 - 05:51pm PT
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Not to hijack the thread, but this discussion brings to mind an experience I had at OR last year.
After the show ended one night, we decided to go for a swim at the indoor pool of the hotel where we were staying. It was a pretty fancy hotel, and we had to register at the desk and sign in with our room number to get to the pool and spa. We were informed at check in that we could use the pool, but had to be respectful of the group already using the pool area. We walked through the opulent and gaudy entrance to the pool, and immediately my jaw hit the floor. One of my friends who works for Prana was in the room, along with four other stylishly clad women, a huge rack of clothes and acessories, and several of the female editors (and one male) of a well known "outdoor" magazine were laid back in lounge chairs, receiving manicures and pedicures, wine in hand, and were being 'shown' the latest clothing line. The women, excepting my friend, all worked for a publicity company hired by Prana, and as the editors were being pampered, they would take out a top and bottom, parade them in front of the supine editors, and extoll the virtues of the latest piece of essential "climbing clothing." My business partner and I sat in the hot tub watching this spectacle go on for over an hour. Every single piece of clothing in the new line was displayed to the editors, who nodded smilingly as their feet were rubbed down and they got drunk on free wine.
Remember that the next time you read a glowing review in a magazine about the latest and greatest piece of gear that you *must* have. This incident has changed completely the way I look at those magazines and their reviews. When Outdoor magazine runs their 'gear guide' I now know exactly what the process is that goes into choosing what is included and what is not. Theres nothing that I can say as I am a consumer, like everybody else, and thus help perpetuate the whole process, but this spectacle was a shock to me, never having considered the massive amount of promotion and marketing (and pampering) that goes into the sale of these clothes and other products.
The next time you read a gear review, how do you know that it's an informed review? How do you know that the product was even tested before said review was written?? It just seems a little pathetic to me that these products are being fed to consumers but aren't actually being reviewed.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Jan 25, 2005 - 05:58pm PT
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Thanks for the story. From the few (non-climbing-related) trade shows that I've been too, I'd guess that your experience is probably typical of most industries.
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Matt
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Jan 25, 2005 - 06:11pm PT
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so lemme get this straight-
because we all know that CREDIBILITY is so dear to certain people w/ their public/internet personas, what we should expect to read in the reviews will go something like this:
"i have spent many nights (even the large part of more than a few days) hanging off the side of el cap on a portaledge, so i know what i am talking about. that said, i did not test these products out in the real world, but instead i hung them up in my garage and read my email. generally i choose not to take my ledge apart and reassemble it daily because i haul open, so don't look to me for any advice or input if that is among your concerns. as far as durability and comfort, i can give you my best guess (which may save you the 15 minutes it would take you to check each one out yourself), but i am not even going to discuss the product that i myself use when i go outside and actually depend on my gear. these magazine guys are paying me to say all of this to you sorry suckas, so spend freely, all you young 1st time big-wallers!"
pretty ironic that condi rice's confirmation hearings are also in the news today. she was just 'selling' too, right?
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bestbefore
climber
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Jan 25, 2005 - 06:14pm PT
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At risk of pissing everyone off by not slagging Pete, I think his approach to this review makes a lot of sense. Not that I agree that opening the ledges on his living room floor constitutes reasonable due diligence, mind you. But seeking input from the largest possible number of users seems the right thing to do.
There is a general sentiment expressed here that these ledges should all be tested on the Big Stone or somewhere similar, and I agree this would be great. But if Pete sets of with Anker's latest luxury box for a smooth ride up the Cap, enjoying beautiful sunsets and gentle breezes, how much more will he really learn than he would spending a few hours hanging out at his local crag, or even gym? Is it easy to assemble? To break down? Easy to adjust? What happens when i jump on it? Does it feel solid if I treat it rough? All this a user, especially an experienced user, can explore a few feet off the ground.
The most important information people are looking for in "real world" testing is "what happens when you get caught in an October storm and get the living sh#t beaten out of you for days on end?" People love and trust the Fish ledges because they know the answer to that question, thanks to the testimonials of hundreds of users over very many years.
Not even the most energetic reviewer could hope to go out and find enough storms to get stuck in to answer this question, even assuming he had a) enough time before deadline and b) the inclination to get beaten to sh#t repeatedly in his quest for truth.
So, to me, it makes absolute sense to seek input from a wider community of greater or lesser experts which, collectively, has probably ridden these things through all kinds of trials and tribulations. And this input, accurately identified as coming from the community, should be part of any review of this kind.
All that said, Pete, not being able to transport them to the Valley is a pretty lame excuse. Fly them all down, try them all out, then sell one or all to cover your excess baggage charges. Bet you turn a profit!
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BigSky
Mountain climber
Big Sky Montana
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Jan 25, 2005 - 06:17pm PT
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more effective would be for the author of a thread to kill the thread (edit) by deleting the 1st post(end edit) when dk posts (flame away)
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clustiere
Big Wall climber
running springs, ca
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Feb 18, 2005 - 03:11am PT
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I have the BD sky lounge, do they still make it er what, as I havn't seen it around fer a while.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Feb 18, 2005 - 10:30am PT
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Nope. BD is out of the ledge business.
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clustiere
Big Wall climber
running springs, ca
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Feb 18, 2005 - 12:09pm PT
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Anybody , how did that happen , they had the most convienient ledge on the market??
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 18, 2005 - 12:45pm PT
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Which ledge to buy? -- the question comes up all the time .. and there are some really good products out there ..
i'm going to be in the market for a new ledge+fly this year ..
the top contenders in my book are (all doubles -- i alrady have a single)
Fish
A5 Anker
Metolious
.. what i need to do is make a chart that has compares weight.
all of these portaledges are probably ok in the ease of setup.. and probably all of them would do fine in a storm on el cap .. so the only real deciding factor is weight.
(this is of course assuming that money is no object)
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Mungeclimber
Social climber
N. California
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Feb 18, 2005 - 01:02pm PT
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I ain't doing yer werk for ya.
Though for testing purposes, see if you can get to a firestation and ask them to hose you down.
LOL!!! (with the ledge and fly of course)
;)
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 29, 2007 - 11:41am PT
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What did you decide?
Did Pete finish the review or is he still workin on it? Maybe he writes slow too:-)
Regards:
Bill
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2007 - 12:16pm PT
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I don't know if you can find it on Gripped's website or not.
What I remember is that the Pika was pretty nice, better than I expected. About the only piece of Pika gear I've used that I like, so much of their stuff I don't like.
Metolius is definitely easiest to set up, for those who bother to set up and take apart ledges. With this one you have to because the spreader bar won't let you flag the ledge. I don't like the spreader bar - I'm not that heavy, and when lying on the ledge I could sometimes feel it, though in hindsight I may not have had the bed tension tight enough.
Anker's ledge is superb, of course, and superbly expensive, though you get a choice of cheaper flies if you like. He didn't include a set of instructions with the ledge, and I missed the bit about the rubber bumpers against the wall which are definitely a good idea.
I use a Fish Double, and have done so for over 300 nights on the Big Stone, though it wasn't in the review.
If you find the review, you have to find Conrad's letter to the editor in the next edition! He gave me arguably the best big wall insult-moniker-poke/jab ever! I laughed my ass off!
Cheers,
Dr. Piton
BWP
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