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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jan 16, 2008 - 11:02pm PT
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well f*#k, if these guys are/were so proud of the fact that they chipped away such small crystals that nobody 25 years ago could tell, how can you tell now?
and if SG does in fact quote (in his post just above) the prevailing ethic of the day (i wasn't there either!), that any impact on a tool is a failure equal to a bolt:
"To be clear, if a hook placement requires IMPACT FORCE with a hammer, drill or chisel to be viable, it represents the same level of failure of skill and technique as a bolt, rivet or any other drilled anchor"
... but these guys felt that there was in fact value in chipping small enough that nobody could even see, is it not blatantly obvious that they are working under their own set of ethics?
(i.e."The first ascent party ignored local ethics and bolted excessively")
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jan 16, 2008 - 11:08pm PT
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Jody said, "The second pitch has a couple of hooks out of the anchor to a rivet. After that rivet two more hooks take you to another rivet (there weren't any flakes there that I could see.)"
PTPP said "What? That's not how the second pitch begins at all! Those guys must have scared themselves brainless or something, because the start of the second pitch is the crux, and the first two rivets are at around 20' and 40' out respectively"
Picture of the second pitch from Richard's site says:
That looks like a pretty short 20 and 40 feet to those first two rivets. I think maybe Jody's description is more accurate?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jan 16, 2008 - 11:19pm PT
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"The main obstacle to achieving that mission is that no one wants to waste precious climbing time doing that. I would love to go up there and check it out, but it's simply not worth it. Debating the controversy on the internet after work, however, is easy."
Mimi is on to something here! Seriously, I think this applies to all of us. Myself, for sure.
I won't lie. I've thought about it. I've been up there a few different times. I've talked to Ammon about it. Others have talked to me about it. There's a ton of talk about folks going up there and busting this thing out to see what the real deal is. But f*#k if that isn't hard to commit to when you have tons of cracks (what I really enjoy)right there - on the Captain, the Rostrum right down the road, Astroman the other direction, hours of crack cragging in *every* direction, etc. My biggest goal this season is NIAD and maybe the West Face. Honestly, WoS doesn't do anything to help in my preparation for either.... So, there it sits.
It's the same with slab climbing at my local crag-. Once I *finally* get around to it, I enjoy it a great deal (it's what I started climbing on), and know it is great for my footwork technique, but getting to it - that's the key. Too many damn cracks or other things I'd rather climb. Chasing the dream and keeping the magic alive (as I see it), as Kath would say.
I think eventually someone will step up. At the very least, someone will be on that side of that wall and think, "you know, if I rap down..." That will be a day, eh? Whoever that person is, *please* make sure you take a camera and get some good pics!
However, as far as me, I'm kinda in the same place as Ammon. I've been up there and I *see* the route. It's there. I see quite a bit of free moves too. Someone a lot more badass than me could certainly go a long ways towards linking the features together and making this one of the hardest slab routes in the valley. Hell, I saw a lot on the first pitch that I was convinced I could redpoint. But how long will it take for someone to become driven and impassioned by a slab? It's just not me. At least not right now. Did I mention too many cracks?
Seriously, this (what we do) is all about having fun I thought? There are folks who will never see the same thing Mark and Richard saw, and vice-versa. Besides all the strife and conflict, they are pretty proud of their ascent. Cool. Steve, deuce, et all have done some super rad sh#t too! F*#king mad props to all involved. You have to know that those of us younger came into wall climbing looking up to you guys! But more than anything we all came into climbing because we enjoyed it! It got our juices flowing, gave us a boner (sorry Mimi =)) or whatever it did for us... That's what I'm not willing to lose sight of.
I'm fairly certain that most of the folks in here would get along great in entirely different circumstances and probably have incredible days at the crags together. I'd climb with *any* of you. I've met both Richard and Mark and think they're great guys. I'd love the chance to hang out with Steve, Mimi, deuce, even dimitri, whom I was obviously given wrong info about - everyone embroiled in this whole WoS "thing". That's kinda where I stand with it now.
F*#k, if that wasn't the longest "can't we all get along" rant ever! hahaha But, again, it's easy and, to some degree, fun to debate, etc. after work, just as Mimi said. I just wanted to get that out, I suppose. Carry on folks. I suppose the flip-side of all of that is that this kind of thing can happen when good people, all feeling strongly about something that impassions them deeply, come together to talk about a controversial subject.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2008 - 11:33pm PT
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Ahhhhh! Nice! Prima facie evidence. The crux is up a bit but the spacing doesn't look very heroic does it? As I have posted earlier, done in the same year not far away, the sixth pitch of the JR had six natural hooks in a row placed from top steps or higher and warranted only A4+. The pitch above was "conservatively" rated A5. How would these guys have been to able to rate anything by comparison when neither of them had ever climbed an established modern aid route and no, ten days solo on the South Face of the Column doesn't rate.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 17, 2008 - 12:08am PT
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Steve, are you now suggesting that on the mere basis that you feel that there are or were many enhancements, that your feeling alone has merit? Does your believing it make it true?
Given your latest suggestion that the enhancements are or were there, but nobody including me looked hard enough to see them, I'm wondering exactly how Richard and Mark could possibly prove that they were honest in their endless accounts of what happened. It seems to me that now - no matter who or how many concur with the findings of me, Tom, Randy, Ammon, and even Rob Slater - you will simply continue to assert, on your word alone [without any firsthand observation] that the enhancements are or were there. Even though I and everyone else couldn't see 'em. No matter what people observe, will you seemingly just respond that the evidence has eroded away?
Can you suggest any reasonable means by which Richard and Mark can clear their names? Or in your mind - regardless of what evidence can and has already been produced - are they just liars by definition, in spite of the fact I can't find anything in my observation to show that they lied about anything?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jan 17, 2008 - 12:12am PT
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...and all you are saying is that you didn't see any evidence of chipping-
but of course, the FAists said they were all too small to see (they were proud of it!), so how is it any sort of meaningful statement that you didn't see any enhancements?
this is a big circle jerk, nothing will ever come of it
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 17, 2008 - 12:14am PT
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"this is a big circle jerk, nothing will ever come of it"
This might be the only undisputable fact in this thread.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 17, 2008 - 12:20am PT
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Concur. But by far the most compelling and talked-about topic in the history of McTopo. What's the total count of posts on all the Wings of Steel threads? Must be over a thousand, eh?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2008 - 12:32am PT
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Pete, you're a man of faith but let's move beyond that.
When you were up on Horse Chute, and had the opportunity as I did, to swing over and look at WOS as I suggested you do in a previous email, you didn't. What's up with that fella? Did it just not cross your mind? You certainly found plenty of time to waste doing other things. LOL!
The only way to get to the bottom of this is to get to the top of this and have a look see. I suggest an impartial jury of five carefully selected hooded rappers to render the verdict in a blow by blow slide show of every single one of the 151 hallowed hooks.
You've been hammered on pretty good by a lot of folks for climbing as you do, Pete. Winds of Change and Ring of Fire were total hack jobs stemming from the initial and much more passionately crafted, gleaming Great Slab of Learning.
The last time I was in the Valley, I had a really interesting conversation with the Climbing Ranger about the Ring of Fire. Richard and Mark were drilling so conspicuously on the bottom couple of pitches that several parties approached him to do what he could to make them stop drilling.
His description of the encounter found Richard and Mark thorny and unapproachable at first and then slowly warming to conversation once the topic turned to their route. The ranger asked them how much they'd drilled on the bottom couple of pitches. When he heard their reply, he suggested strongly, that they abandon their route if the drilling ratio didn't decrease significantly.
What is it about these guys that makes people want to stop them from doing whatever it is they do on more than one occasion? They come back how ever many years later and get into trouble again for forcing up a route.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 17, 2008 - 12:37am PT
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Yeah, I totally forgot to have a look at WoS by the time I got up there on Horse Chute. When I was in position, the weather turned bad and Holly and I were about to get dumped on with a big rainstorm, so I was hightailing it up through the bushes and grass to get on top of the Truck Stop.
I take my time on the wall because I can. It is, after all, a holiday.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 17, 2008 - 01:40am PT
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Steve Grossman: "graniteclimber- I wrote the chapter. It was faithfully reproduced. Go find a copy. Your pitiful heroes misquoted my writing for their own self-promotion. Imagine that!?! Richard is supposed to be an academic, right?!?"
Steve, you accuse Richard of misquoting your writing, and use this to cast doubt on his ability as an academic. This is a very serious charge and if it is true it would certainly cast doubt on his credibility. Now could you please show us where he misquotes you?
Compare Richard's quotation of your book to the scanned section you posted. It matches your's word for word. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=231718&msg=231943#msg231943
Steve Grossman: "To be clear, if a hook placement requires IMPACT FORCE with a hammer, drill or chisel to be viable, it represents the same level of failure of skill and technique as a bolt, rivet or any other drilled anchor."
Isn't this rather too broad? What if instead of using the hammer against a chisel, a climber just uses his hammer to very gently tap against the hook itself? I am sure that you would agree that is okay?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 17, 2008 - 01:46am PT
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'Death Spiral' Around a Black Hole Yields Tantalizing Evidence of Event Horizon
NASA's Hubble Space Telescope may have, for the first time, provided direct evidence for the existence of black holes by observing the disappearance of matter as it falls beyond the "event horizon."
http://space.about.com/cs/nasanews/a/2001_03stsci.htm
I KNEW the Hubble had something to do with it. Although it will surprise astrophysicists to learn that there is a black hole on the southwest face of El Capitan - or on SuperTopo.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 17, 2008 - 01:53am PT
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Matt: "robbins originally felt, from the ground, that the WEML was over bolted, and he set off to chop, to erase, the entire route. what changed his mind?
(hint: it was not the difficulty of the climbing (which so many have focused on in these threads), it was the quality of the climbing, which is exactly what ammon did not attest to on WoS, and what one would assume would draw (or not draw?) future parties to the climb)"
Matt, are you speaking of the same Royal Robbins that called the route "contrived, nondescript, lacking [even] one memorable pitch" while admitting that it had "some of the hardest nailing I have ever done."(Camp 4, p. 230)
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2008 - 02:06am PT
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Hey granitehead- where do you see the phrase "bolt ladder" in my posted text block?!? Do try and read it this time.
If you are using a hook as a chisel albeit an odd one the same applies. If you used a carabiner as a chisel or punch, the same. Intentional impact force. Pretty clear really.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 17, 2008 - 02:07am PT
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"well i feel strongly that one thing that's entirely missing from some peoples' math is the relative utility of the total damage to the rock itself, when viewed in the light of the subsequent traffic across the route. in particular, this goes to joe's arguments that the FA was bold and so that's a clear pass. i would disagree. the point also goes to the fact that future parties may need to chip their way up, as much or more that the FA team, depending upon the condition of the rock, and on if the FA rivets hold, etc."
Matt, here and in the following paragraph I left out of the quote you try to roll the SA (Subsequent Ascents) concerns in with the technical reality on the stone during the FA. All those concerns legitimately relate to whether the slab should be climbed at all. That's because those SA concerns would exist regardless of who did the route. Following that line of reasoning unavoidably leads to saying the slab shouldn't be climbed by anyone. Is that your claim - that steep slabs shouldn't be climbed?
"joey - your approach to this is all EGO. YOU believe that YOUR ethics and style are beyond compare, and therefore, because this route sounds like it meets the sniff test (YOUR sniff test), whatever that means, and because nobody else could have done it significantly "better", all this is hogwash and the route must be proud and stout(!) again, your ego is blocking your view, so you cannot see that your point of view lacks context."
That's an argument? I have no ego wrapped up in this whatsoever. Hell, I don't even like slabs - at very best to me, if unavoidable, they represent a sadly necessary transit to get to something which might actually involve climbing. As 'climbing' for their own sake? Only if the nearest tree or playground was booked up or closed. BUT, I've been to places like Whitehorse Ledges and Looking Glass where people clearly think differently about slabs than I do. Are you, Steve, and others telling them they shouldn't be climbing the WoS slab if they take an honest interest in it like the two LG guys did?
"were these guys simply the best aid hookers in history?
why did nobody else ever put a route up that slab?
why has nobody else ever repeated the route?
did all the old dads BITD walk up there and look at the slab and quietly say to themselves, "i can't do this", or did they walk up there and say "this won't go w/out more drilling than the line itself warrants"?"
More of the same 'the slab shouln't be climbed' commentary with the exception of that very last phrase. Let's be clear, 'the line itself' warrants whatever the minimum steel-on-stone would be required to climb it - by anyone. We keep coming down to the same two questions - a) should the slab be climbed? and b) if climbing the slab is legitimate, could anyone else have put up the line with a lower steel-on-stone index? Those are simple questions anyone here should be able to answer - they aren't rocket science. Climb the slab - yes or no? If yes, then could anyone else have done it with a lower steel-to-stone index - yes or no? If yes, then who?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 17, 2008 - 02:20am PT
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Steve Grossman: "Hey granitehead- where do you see the phrase "bolt ladder" in my posted text block?!? Do try and read it this time."
You have accused Richard of "misquoting" your book. Please point to where Richard did this. Please do not point to where you misquote Richard, but where Richard misquotes you.
Edit: Thank your for addressing my question on hammering.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2008 - 02:20am PT
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Joe- have you ever done much aid climbing?
Get some sleep little troll, you are suspiciously knowledgeable and daft as a pole at the same time. Somebody feeding you questions?!?
Gclimber-You are the one misquoting Richard. I didn't bother to backcheck your statement.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 17, 2008 - 02:39am PT
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Steve, not a bunch. I've blown a few hooks on sandstone and done enough to know I prefer free climbing as a general rule. And where I completely love the art and craft of minimal protection, I don't find it all that interesting in the absence of movement. I've been climbing for 34 years and still free climb over strings of consecutive Crack 'N Ups and 1-3 Loweballs on a regular enough basis - I get the idea. Beyond that I have nothing but respect for good aid climbers - particularly Charlie Porter's pin work and Eric Kohl's heading.
And why? Does it change the logic of my argument in any way or mean I'm not climber enough to bother trying to get on WoS? Again, some clueless out-of-towners (which could easily have been us) jumped on your slab so the two questions still have merit. Should the slab be climbed - yes or no? Could you have climbed it with a lower steel-on-stone index - yes or no?
Neither question depends on my experience.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2008 - 02:50am PT
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Joe, I wasn't fishing for a resume. Just curious if you think it's a good thing for these guys or anyone else to head up on a new El Cap route not having led an established A3 pitch of 100' or longer? I think you have a lot more common sense and respect for tradition than to have behaved as they did.
Someone was eventually going to put a route up there. The climbers should be competent and experienced, yes? Richard and Mark have beat their chests on the forum and elsewhere demanding to know "who better than us" to have done this route. The answer is just about anybody who was active at the time who had done A3 or harder. It's not some local code, it's common sense. Everybody's got some, but these guys missed out.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 17, 2008 - 03:07am PT
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Steve, I wish I could claim more common sense than I can. I tried to organize a trip to Baffin in '76, but luckily didn't manage to pull it off. We had essentially no aid, granite, big wall, or alpine experience. We also had no particular expectations beyond not having to climb in the dark or in too extreme a weather if we pulled the timing off just right. We more or less taught ourselves to climb in isolation and we held no truck with "culture" or "tradition" beyond being fierce proponents of LNT. My one trip hitching to the Valley back in the '70s ended up in a bad snow storm on the way up to the park so I bailed. But had my partner and I ever managed to make it there, we would have been striking out on our own with deliberate cluelessness on the principle of just eyeballing stuff. I did and do epic a bunch, but great things do occasionally trickle up from the darkness.
I guess my point still remains that, while it may not have been your way, the month of camping and UHaul of gear didn't alter the nature of the climb in stone on the day after they got off of it. The enhancements, holes, rivets, and bolts are what they are. And I'd personally love to see what a 'competent' local could do on the slab - once they got off of it you'd then have two side-by-side routes to contrast and compare. Seems to me there was room for another similar route where one of the locals could have shown the world how it should have been done - isn't there still?
If the slab was and is worthy of being climbed then it's a bummer the WoS epic put everyone off it. It would seem to me that the best way to put it to rest would be to carry on like it never happened.
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