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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jan 16, 2008 - 07:55pm PT
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I suppose most of us don't care beyond watching a bizarre debate unfold before us. What's crazy to me is the amount of venom it elicits, not from the guys who had poop thrown on them and were publicly claimed to have been ostracized--theyhave a legitimate beef--but from the likes of the original poster and me-me. Wings is an obsure route on a weird part of EC which had no sigificant impact on the way people put up wall routes- then or now.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 16, 2008 - 08:02pm PT
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That Jody is a devious guy-cheers!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 16, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
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Matt: "but all that any of you, or mr. even ammon mcneely, can offer in the conversation about WoS, is an opinion that lacks the very context which makes said opinion valid."
Time-based "context" - I call bullshit on that as totally irrelevant compared to the Stone-based "context". That "context" of the level of 'enhancement', 'hole' count, bolt/rivet count, and the overall "steel-on-stone" index of the route hasn't changed since they did it. It's no different than being able to grab a rack of hexs and stoppers and going out and having essentially the same level of experience with pro as the FAs on an endless number of routes from the 70's. The stone is still there and the hexs & stoppers are as well - no other "context" matters.
And I've already asked the question: then or now, how many of yesterday's or today's hardmen could do the route with less steel on stone ('enhancements' + 'holes')? Haven't heard any answers yet and Ammon didn't address it in his comments. I'd quess damn few or none at all and likely most would have drilled holes as opposed to simply micro-'enhancing' flakes and the bolt/rivet count would have been higher.
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 16, 2008 - 08:10pm PT
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Joe, you nailed it and pun intended.
So, are you condoning subsequent ascents continue to enhance their way up when necessary? And as the FA party suggests, should they continue to add Zmacs whenever they blow rather than adding more appropriate anchors?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 16, 2008 - 08:17pm PT
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No, I'm not saying anything about SAs, I'm simply looking for an answer or answers to this simple question:
Who, then or now, could do that same line with a lower steel-on-stone index?
[ Edit: But to answer your question - yes, I'm completely condoning any enhancement subject to removal by lichen
and rain... ]
[ Edit, Edit: And to answer your other question - I have no opinion relative to the funny, clever, and just plain
weird assortment of sh#t the whole lot of you folks there have been pounding into holes in the rock for decades... ]
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2008 - 08:44pm PT
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"Who, then or now, could do that same line with a lower steel-on-stone index?"
Irrelevant question that points to nowhere.
Nobody would have gone up that slab to begin with.
There was better stuff to be had than that slab.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jan 16, 2008 - 09:00pm PT
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well i feel strongly that one thing that's entirely missing from some peoples' math is the relative utility of the total damage to the rock itself, when viewed in the light of the subsequent traffic across the route.
in particular, this goes to joe's arguments that the FA was bold and so that's a clear pass. i would disagree. the point also goes to the fact that future parties may need to chip their way up, as much or more that the FA team, depending upon the condition of the rock, and on if the FA rivets hold, etc.
if one views the rock as holy ground, and if the rock itself is revered and valued above all else (above the experience of individuals, above climbers' egos, above , etc.), and each drilled placement is viewed as an evil that is determined to be "necessary" or "required" in a certain evaluation process by the FA party, then a part of that evaluation process necessarily includes the route that you leave behind, and that consideration, that responsibility, is entirely ignored by some of you.
i am bonking and need to go eat, so i will finish this post later...
edit-
and partial addition:
joey-
your approach to this is all EGO.
YOU believe that YOUR ethics and style are beyond compare, and therefore, because this route sounds like it meets the sniff test (YOUR sniff test), whatever that means, and because nobody else could have done it significantly "better", all this is hogwash and the route must be proud and stout(!)
again, your ego is blocking your view, so you cannot see that your point of view lacks context.
were these guys simply the best aid hookers in history?
why did nobody else ever put a route up that slab?
why has nobody else ever repeated the route?
did all the old dads BITD walk up there and look at the slab and quietly say to themselves, "i can't do this", or did they walk up there and say "this won't go w/out more drilling than the line itself warrants"?
robbins originally felt, from the ground, that the WEML was over bolted, and he set off to chop, to erase, the entire route. what changed his mind?
(hint: it was not the difficulty of the climbing (which so many have focused on in these threads), it was the quality of the climbing, which is exactly what ammon did not attest to on WoS, and what one would assume would draw (or not draw?) future parties to the climb)
now then, two young lads from around the way roll into camp4, never having climbed a big wall, and they choose a line that others (all others?) have deemed not worth the drilling, and they decide to do the drilling, despite what the care-takers of the limited and sacred resource think of the line.
what was everyone afraid of?
that two unknowns would best them all and make them look soft?
or perhaps that two 1st time big-wallers and 1st time FAists would drill a bunch of anchors up the slab a leave behind a route that nobody else would want to do?
maybe it's not just the drilling-
maybe it's also the line itself-
and maybe it's not just the drilling and the line-
maybe it's also what the culture of the place, and the climbers of the era- the very climbers who were the culture and who'd created it, collectively thought of hooking and drilling (or even hooking and hooking and hooking and driling), up a slab for a month. maybe they all expected that, just as they didn't think it was worthwhile, they didn't expect that others would look up at it and think it was worthwhile, and so all the drilling and impact upon the rock would be for essentially one ascent? and if so, it seems as though they were essentially correct in their judgement.
that people want to sit around now and debate the merrits of the climb through the prism of their own personal ethics is just absurd. you can't rewrite the past, it's done, and you wee not there.
what's more, nobody does the thing, even now.
carry on...
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Jan 16, 2008 - 09:13pm PT
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WoS is the most ecologically sensitive climb on the wall. A few bolts, scars so tiny they melted in the sun and rain, and a route that no one else goes up.
Which has had a bigger impact on the holy rock more, the Nose, or WoS?
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 16, 2008 - 09:15pm PT
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Very nice, Matt. Some people have been trying to get these points across since day one.
Joe, don't try and downplay drilling hook holes as okay if they can be masked by rock weathering or that the Valley is already spoiled. Chipping holes is chipping holes. It's cheating. If anyone did that on Beacon, you'd go postal. Don't you have a reputation for this in Portland?
The rock weathering idea is a logical theory as to why Ammon, Randy, and others didn't see 'anything.' I still would like to hear more about the marks Christian saw. I believe if people went up there with the sole purpose being to seek and identify enhanced hook holes (rock weathering has not hidden all of them) they would be found. They sure are visible up above.
The main obstacle to achieving that mission is that no one wants to waste precious climbing time doing that. I would love to go up there and check it out, but it's simply not worth it. Debating the controversy on the internet after work, however, is easy. Really should be reading a book though, and posting on the Last Book You Read thread. Nah, too relaxing.
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2008 - 09:31pm PT
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Whoa, sorry. Didn't mean to interrupt this venomous flame war with a nice picture. Carry on.
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2008 - 09:55pm PT
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Tetons?
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2008 - 10:12pm PT
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Somewhere in King's Canyon?
Probably wrong but I'll use it as an excuse to post this:
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2008 - 10:25pm PT
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Lots of nice pictures indeed. Just got back from a glorious day skiing with Rainier in the background playing with its lenticular mask. Just beautiful!
graniteclimber- I wrote the chapter. It was faithfully reproduced. Go find a copy. Your pitiful heroes misquoted my writing for their own self-promotion. Imagine that!?! Richard is supposed to be an academic, right?!?
Since you're now part of the WOS lie, how about providing your name as some evidence of some integrity.
Richard and Mark are halflings hiding behind half truths. Had I used the word "drilling" in place of "bolting," then there would have been nothing for them to distort or exploit. Based on my own hooking experience, without ANY enhancements, I bet the number is much more like 100 enhanced narrow Logan hooks. When somebody reliable inspects the entire slab, I don't think ten tiny indiscretions will be the final count.
Richard had a very badly sprained ankle and I don't think that Mark was too fond of falling either. At this point, they are expecting everybody to believe they successfully pulled off at least 130 pointed Logan's with no evidence, beyond their own estimation, that they had appropriate experience. They wrote a guide to the Crucible of Greatness (aka Riverside Quarry), but won't discuss its contents.
Louie- if you are lurking, would you mind posting their guide book or revealing if any of the routes there featured difficult hooking. If you have repeated their routes, please do tell.
When the guy with the horns and the Red right hand whispered, "Bwanadimple, twill serve you well and keep the falls away." Sounded good, real good.
To be clear, if a hook placement requires IMPACT FORCE with a hammer, drill or chisel to be viable, it represents the same level of failure of skill and technique as a bolt, rivet or any other drilled anchor. Our heroes really didn't want to bathook either, but chose to do so when they had reached the end. Ole Red hand came back. Said that they were down to only three rivets and somehow this justified a change in tactics.
Well alrighty, from the bloated Appendix, 200 rivets brought, minus 78 placed, minus the magic 3, leaves 119 that somehow got lost in the luggage! Oh, but there has to be an explanation!?!
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 16, 2008 - 10:32pm PT
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Rok, don't mind Jody, he's just having fun. View them as commercials. They are scenic mountains after all.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 16, 2008 - 10:38pm PT
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Steve - what part of this statement don't you understand:
"It is possible to climb the first two pitches of WoS right now using little itty bitty hooks and if you are prepared to risk and probably take long falls, without any further enhancement of the rock."
I didn't see any enhancements, and I was looking for them. I was able to do almost all the hook moves on toprope [too hard and scary for me to lead] and I didn't have to enhance anything. There were two or three moves I couldn't do, but if I hadn't been so tired/bored/scared/fed up I probably could have figured them out. But by that point I had essentially given up.
Ammon climbed most of the second pitch and he didn't have to enhance anything, either.
I agree it may not be possible to repeat the route as is without re-enhancing some of the placements that might have been worn smooth by water over the last twenty-five years. Mark and Richard aren't hiding behind any half-truths; indeed they have been extremely forthright about precisely how they did this, and how many times they did this, and based on everything I have observed, I have no reason to believe they lied.
If you're so certain they're lying, why don't you please quit whining on this forum, and go climb the first two pitches of the bloody thing and tell us what you think. We re-equipped the route with new bolts and rivets that are as strong or stronger than the originals, so it's good to go.
Shut up and climb, eh?
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jan 16, 2008 - 10:42pm PT
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"The rock weathering idea is a logical theory..."
So was the world being flat.
I'm having a hard time believing that granite just weathers away so quickly.
Has the rest of ElCap changed as much as theorized, or is it location specific?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 16, 2008 - 10:45pm PT
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Johnboy,
The route is a slab and is exposed to running water during storms. The hook placements are sickeningly small and barely useable. It is conceivable that some have eroded enough in the last 25 years to not be useable, but nobody's really sure!
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jan 16, 2008 - 10:50pm PT
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Wow, an honest question and and honest answer,.....in this thread.
Thanks PTPP.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 16, 2008 - 10:54pm PT
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SG: "When somebody reliable inspects the entire slab, I don't think ten tiny indiscretions will be the final count."
Is there anyone, anywhere, more reliable than you on this topic...? I explicitly trust you regardless of any argument over this issue.
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 16, 2008 - 11:00pm PT
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The weathering idea is not the be all, end all, although 25 years in that environment, even for granite, does produce visible changes. The point is that the previous parties doing the lower pitches claim they didn't see anything. Rather than simply condemn their credibility (except for Pete), I chose to suggest other possible reasons for why they didn't see 'anything' untoward while they were up there.
"The point Pitiful Pete keeps missing is that I saw evidence that placements were smashed with a hammer. Water runs down that face all winter and it wears more than any other part of El Cap. He says he saw no evidence of that. Either he is f*#king blind, or the erosion has hidden it. I could put up a line right next to it, drilling every single placement, and smash it out on the clean. In a couple of hard winters, you would never see anything but the bolts and think I friggin' levitated up the wall." Christian's email excerpt, 12-29-07.
The basic issue is about being honest and forthright about how you did a new route. Historically, quality of effort is what matters.
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