Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 37 of total 37 in this topic |
Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
|
|
Let's encourage Crowley to delete ALL his posts.
|
|
Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
|
|
Come on you're like a bunch of fck^&* dogs...
I don't have all night (day) so I'll make this short,
I was going to say that Crowley, whether you liked it or not put something up there and didn't add (his 2 cents) worth of stuff that people hate.
Then it started all over again, and I just wanted it to flow...you know. Not digress into the shite that has been happening.
I think Crowley need not respond to Shite nor Locker ( nor Dr T) to Shite, but just have a "discussion about the topic...is that too much to ask (expect...!) I think everyone has something worth saying (writing) but ya got to give it a chance and to ("attack") respond to the ideas, not the person...
Maybe I'm dreamng...
DD
|
|
screelover
Mountain climber
Canuckistan
|
|
LEB,
While I admire your principles related to self-inprovement, I think you are also being a bit nieve when it comes to realities of the work place.
Management tends to get the type of union it deserves. Abusive, and represive employers tend to spawn unions that are agressive and confrontational. Management that truly values employees tends to provide barren ground for union organizers.
You reap what you sew.
You preference that any worker who feels hard done by should simply "pull themselves up by the socks", while commendable, ignores the reality that most exploited workers find themselves in.
Should exploited farm workers all become farmers? Should postal workers start courier companies? Should underpaid and overworker nurses found new hospitals? Extending your arguement leads to absurdity.
As a self-employed person, i haven't got a dog in this fight, but I do know that unions can become self-perpetuating and corrupt, just like any other human insititution. And then they need to be overthrown by the members they exploit.
There is no black and white here, I'm afriad, just endless shades of gray.
|
|
screelover
Mountain climber
Canuckistan
|
|
The other thing that can really make a difference for those in the hospitality industry is demographics.
My son is a chef in Western Canada. As you may be aware, there is a bit of an economic boom going on out there, and, given the aging population and soaring demand for workers, there is a real shortage of people willing to take on the normally poorly-paid jobs in resorts and restaurants.
high demand + lower supply = higher prices.
So in Canmore, high school students working part-time for Tim Horton's (our national donut chain) start at about $15/hr plus benefits.
The high end restuaant my son works at offered all employees at 30% raise at the beginning of the year. That was their opening offer.
Needless to say, many of the trades pay way good these days. It's hard work, but carpenters, plumbers, welders, etc. make well in excess of $100k/year in Alberta.
Sometimes the market works for workers too.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
"Granted that there have been abusive employers throughout history, and unions have made some very positive impacts, in the twenty-first century they have outlived their usefulness in industrialized nations."
I'd guess that the workers in most Tyson's factories, and indeed many in "right to work" states, might not agree. The underlying issue - our dependence on low skill, low education, low wage workers - is profound, given demographic change.
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
union guys take on management and get the toxins in a workplace taken care of - union good...
union guys sitting around and can't get fired because they are union - union bad...
seen both with these two eyes...
absolutes ? NO...
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
Thread drift time:
From 1895-1920 the second largest city in the US ,West of the Continental Divide(Butte) was dominated by two entwined opponents--copper and labor. The Socialist Party held control of the city government and copper was needed for the growth of electricity. "No Smoking" signs were printed in 17 different languages to accomodate the safety of the miners. There were labor problems, prostitution, enormous wealth--all under the Socialist Party rule.
Moral of the story ?
I don't know, but that's why it's a thread drift.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
LEB, What will happen when everyone is a chef?
"We want a system in which the worker shall get what he produces and the capitalist shall produce what he gets." - Eugene Debs
Fair enough?
|
|
stinky
climber
Santa Cruz. CA
|
|
because one person won the lottery, we should buy lottery tickets instead of saving for retirement.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
"The man who wins the lottery does so by pure and simple chance."
Not so, not ever. It's pre-ordained.
Nothing in this universe operates on chance.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Dingus wrote: everyone can do something to make himself more self-reliant and less dependant on others to protect him.
Exactly. It's called the power of the union.
As Woody Guthrie said:
I’m gonna tell you fascists
You may be surprised
The people in this world
Are getting organized
You’re bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose
Race hatred cannot stop us
This one thing we know
Your poll tax and Jim Crow
And greed has got to go
You’re bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose.
All of you fascists bound to lose:
I said, all of you fascists bound to lose:
Yes sir, all of you fascists bound to lose:
You’re bound to lose! You fascists:
Bound to lose!
People of every color
Marching side to side
Marching ‘cross these fields
Where a million fascists dies
You’re bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose!
I’m going into this battle
And take my union gun
We’ll end this world of slavery
Before this battle’s won
You’re bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
And you wonder why he goes off at times, (Crowley).
You're a dipshit Taco.
You're the fuking stalker ........
|
|
Dr. Taco
Social climber
New Freedonia, Caledonia
|
|
Ok, Mr. Braun, I'll bite. Dr. Taco will stay in character to slap away at your slow pitch.
When I say yer killin' me, I mean, your KILLING me because, well shoot - isn't is a maxim of Werner's Theory of the Universe that all is preordained? I therefore have no say in the matter, and must slag Crowley.
That, or I'm guessing Crowley doesn't send you hate mail? I mean, from before he hated or knew Dr. Taco.
Deleted the offending post, this one's next most likely.
|
|
Dr. Taco
Social climber
New Freedonia, Caledonia
|
|
POS scumbag troll from Palookaville.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!
(POS/Piece of Shit)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
- A. Crowley
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
LEB: The union does not want YOU to advance in any meaningful way and reach your full potential whatever that is.
That's just false. You see, Lois/Dingus, I am the Union.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Lois: And if you decide to open your own business or get more education in your chosen field or go above and beyond where you are now, then you are no longer "the union." They won't celebrate with you. They won't be glad for you.
Where did you learn these lies? That's a bunch of bushwah hogwash! You've been beaten down by the Man, Lois. Break your chains!
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
Unions are not a thing of the past, if we ever needed 'em we need 'em now.
Check out Walmart and China.
Unions, for the good of everybody, join one today, I did, more than once.
As for Crowley and his alleged post deleting; Though I like the man in person, and I'm pretty much with him politically, I'm not always down with his posting style. So I pretty much never read the threads he starts, and have missed this phenomenna. Just a suggestion to those of you who don't agree with him, if you get my drift. He isn't exactly holding a gun to your heads to follow his whim, or his he?
|
|
John Moosie
climber
|
|
I keep optimistically and Pollyanna-like thinking that one day I (we) can "reach" LOIS so as to help her see the light .
oops, the above might be a plagiarism from you Lois, but I changed 2 words.
Dirt wrote this on the Right wing ideology thread. Why Lois had to start another thread when she had already posted on that thread I do not know. Except she is Lois.
Here is Dirts post.
.......................................
Lois, you're thinking like an idiot.
Professionals need unions, they just have not realized it yet.
Medical professionals are among the most in need, in fact. You know the term "doc in a box"?
Do you know how these days the HMOs and other insurers push docs around all the time?
FYI, if dish washer caliber intellects could be chefs, do you really think they'd be washing dishes?
To a business, paying as little as the market will bear suits them just fine, and htey will almost always do just that, regardless of how miserable ther employees will be. This in fact one one fastor that led to the great depression. IF you don't believe that maybe you should read somethign besides Rush books and other right wing propaganda.
When government finally gets done with thier plan to let business and industry operate the way they did in the 20's and thirties, we'll have ANOTHER great depression, only this time people will not be so nice about things.
IN case you are wondering, wages were largely so low and working conditions so bad that people could not afford to buy the goods they produced. That's why they struck (illegal in those days), and that's partly why Roosevelt had to fight the supreme court to get things changed. The supremes were mostly ultra right wing conservative at hte beginning of RDF's first term, and they backed business over the people. They even declared some reforms illegal at first.
You can read all about this in plenty of books about the era, and you'd think anyone who knew a little histsory woudl be aghast at the current trends.
But you,YOU are just the sort of bushbot the republicans love.
America today faces the creation of a permanent underclass, for varioius reasons, which happened over a long period of time. But the bush admin in particular is helping hand over fist.
What unions did was to make possible the great american middle class. The laws they fought for protected us all in some ways.
The most corrupt administration since the teapot dome gang has done a great job of gutting our liberty and our pusuit of happiness, almost entirely in the name their two geart ideals-- of helping out their rich buddies, and creating a totalitarian state where there used to be a free one.
...........................................................
Excellant post. So far Lois, you have said no one needs unions. Then you said, okay, the old, the sick, the mentally retarded need unions.
How about just average folks who have to work in a monopolized industry like working in the parks concessions? The owner here is a billionaire. I suppose joe blow making 8 dollars an hour could fight him. hahahha....
The owners have more power therefore to give power to the little person, unions were formed. Are they perfect? NO. But then neither are the owners. Let me know when you work that part of the equation out, PERFECT NON GREEDY OWNERS, and I will help you dismantle the unions. Until then, good night.
Moosiethefoolwhocaresaboutthelittlepeoplemorethentherich
|
|
nita
climber
chica from chico
|
|
Roxjox, Take some comfort in the fact that--- the Ex-employer- does not always win the unemployment fight.
Good Luck with your case..take some sleeping pills or Anxiety pills, you need your sleep for the fight ahead.
Ativan or generic Lorazepam works wonders;-)
Meditation, walking ,yoga & climbing...also will help.
|
|
Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
|
|
Rokjox,
If you’re denied unemployment benefits, file an appeal immediately.
In Idaho, an appeal is usually effective. Many companies commonly contend that fired employees are ineligible for benefits, but they will not contest an appeal. They count on the fact that many ex employees will not appeal, saving the company funds because the company’s tax rate is computed from the amount of unemployment compensation benefits paid to former employees.
“I am so screwed, I wish I had a union to help me, but not in Idaho, by the Mormon God.”
I’ll take issue with your “Mormon God” assertion. In Idaho, Protestants and Catholics outnumber Mormons two to one. The Right to Work referendum in 1986 was carried by voters in the southwest part of the state, where Mormons are a minority. The majority of voters in the Pocatello area, where the Mormon population is decidedly higher, voted against Right to Work.
The highest concentration of Idaho union workers exist in the nuclear energy research industry and its related contractors in southeastern Idaho. About one half of these union workers are in fact Mormons. No prohibition to organizing or participating in labor unions is binding upon members of the Mormon faith.
If you’re really curious about Idaho’s anti-union reactionary doctinaires who have swallowed and preach the Limbaugh-esque propaganda that all government is dishonest and that its right and normal for right wing authority figures to want to make more money but when workers or unions members want more, it is uppity, presuming, subversive, immoral, and a violation of the Lord's will, you’d be wise to look at another sect, another faith, another union. The rich in Idaho are collectively organized into a tight union and faith that worships their own economic interests. It’s called the Republican Party.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Jennie: f you’re really curious about Idaho’s anti-union reactionary doctinaires who have swallowed and preach the Limbaugh-esque propaganda that all government is dishonest and that its right and normal for right wing authority figures to want to make more money but when workers or unions members want more, it is uppity, presuming, subversive, immoral, and a violation of the Lord's will, you’d be wise to look at another sect, another faith, another union. The rich in Idaho are collectively organized into a tight union and faith that worships their own economic interests. It’s called the Republican Party.
OK, you're not Jody. :-)
That's a nice concise wrap up of the situation, not just in Idaho, but the country as well.
|
|
nita
climber
chica from chico
|
|
Leb, In my area,the Nurses and Doctors voted union at our Hospital. Reason....Foul and unreasonable treatment from the owners/administration.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
LEB:But if reaching the top of El Cap or doing xyz climb (whatever it might be) is your goal, you will never get there by metaphorically unionizing
Bad choice of metaphor, Dingus. A rope team is a union. A big time union. Only by climber and belayer working together can El Cap be climbed.
You could not be anymore wrong. If you keep voting Republican, though, you'll see the light someday. You think you're above it all, but the corporations will squash you like a bug someday, no matter how much you kiss up to them.
|
|
Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
|
|
now this is what you call 'Suffrage'.....
i know you don't get it LEB, but take heart in that you are providing a valuable service.
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
Rok,
I feel for your situation right now even though I have never met you. FWIW if your wife is licensed then she probably has an obligation to go to proper authorities if something wrong is happening with regards to treatment programs adimistered by this pvt company on behalf of the state.
Are you a designer? As in home designer? Just curious.
Good luck and try to keep things positive.
|
|
screelover
Mountain climber
Canuckistan
|
|
Rok,
Sounds like your living in the third world.
Maybe, in spite of your roots and family connections, you need to think about getting youself somewhere else. I know it ain't easy, but sometimes, it's just time to move on.
Given where you live, maybe consider moving about 100 or 150 miles north? You'd get work and decent pay, medical insurance would be a right of citizenship, and you'd discover that church and state can actually be seperated.
I think there is a Canadian Consulat office in Seattle. Check it out.
And good luck with whatever you decide to do. Sounds like you deserve a lot better than you're getting.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
playin by the mans rules was one of the scariest things ever.
get a job with a bigger engineering firm (WGI is in BoyZ) then have them pay for your scoolin. yeah its tuff.
but woe is me wont get you down the road to betterness. i tried that it dont work.
if any youth are reading this they ought to unnerstand that there are decisions made all the time about school, not school, dirbaggin, not dirtbaggin, that seem all fun and stuff but have impacts further on in your life that can screw with you.
i wish you the best but the big firms wont hire you unless you are smoke-free. its a drag but thats how its played out.
|
|
TradIsGood
Half fast climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
$30,000 would have bought 4 years of ivy league back in 1978, not just a couple of semesters - not that a fact will likely stop your whining.
(with nice spending money left over.)
LEB - Please delete this post - doesn't have anything to do with Crowley anymore, anyway. :-)
EDIT:
BTW. $30,000 is probably more than the after tax of a district manager for 84 Lumber back then. The manager of the store I worked at tried to talk me out of going to college by arguing how much I would be making in 2-3 years.
You did pay taxes on that right? If not, maybe you ought to delete the post. Pretty sure there is not statute of limitations on tax evasion, and the penalties and interest would likely finish you off.
|
|
TradIsGood
Half fast climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
Rox, see edit. I think you were posting when I added....
|
|
screelover
Mountain climber
Canuckistan
|
|
Rok,
On second thought, maybe you should stay south of the border till you get some of this shite worked out - likely wouldn't help you out up here. Sounds like you got a heap of monkeys on your back. I'm real sorry bout that.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
|
|
Hey Bro, you might want to take a deep breath there. I learned the hard way that anger expressed so vehemently will only get you more anger. Maybe the person you express it to wont dish it back, but life certainly will. That is the law of karma.
Don't repress the anger, but also don't let it rob you of your peace by giving it out only to get it back from life. Instead, work through the anger. We really do reap what we sow. It may not seem like it because you may be dealing with karma from a previous lifetime, but still it is our karma. The sooner you see this the sooner you can take control of your life.
The debuttante situation sucks.
Being physically hurt sucks.
Working for immoral people sucks.
Listening to self righteous prigs sucks, especially if you know in your heart that they are at least partially right.
But lashing out only gets you a lashing from life. Give that up and seek a better course. Climbing has apt analogies here. When you find your way blocked, you might have to give up hard won ground by downclimbing. To save yourself you might need to leave some gear behind or you might find that your chosen path is just plain wrong and you have to start over. I know it sucks to start over at 54. I am 49 and having to start over. It can be done. You have to ask yourself if you want to continue doing what you are doing and reaping the same results, or do you want to try something else. I don't just mean in your work. But in all of life.
Peace out, I think you can find your way. I know that peace and hope exist and are possible for everyone. I hope you find yours.
John
Try reading. "The least you should know about life" by Kim Michaels.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
rox,
ya gots to keep the faith. you sound so negative.
you said earlier that you never made more than $50k.
Here.
http://www.jobweb.com/resources/library/Salary_and_Benefits/Starting_Salary_51_01.htm
Engineering (BS Level Starting Salaries)
Chemical 52,000 - 57,600
Civil 40,000 - 47,000
Computer 50,000 - 56,000
Electrical/Electronic 49,000 - 56,000
Mechanical 47,000 - 54,240
Dude, these are in line with what you were used to.
i know that there are students out there makin this, it aint made up. experience does count for a lot, but sometimes you got to go through the work of gaining confidence in your employer to get there.
EIT's are not that common, basically you said it yourself, you will be doing the work without supervision, then after 4 years take the test, then throw your shingle up yourself if you want.
engineers where i work make from about $75k to $100k plus bennies. yeah, it cuts into recreation. but 4 10 hour days and if you work OT you get paid for OT. problem is that only the big jobs give you some of these bennies.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
|
|
Hey Rox, it sounds like you have lots of marketable skills, but not much market. If you need more schooling, then consider looking for a school that helps older students. They exist. They have such things as scholarships for older students. These are usually offered by guys just like you who went back to school at an older age, found it tough and decided to do something about it when they made it by offering a scholarship. There are some really awesome things out there. You just have to look and you have to bug the finance people at your schools to help you look.
Another thing to consider, for older students with experience, schools will sometimes make up accelerated programs. This can be hard to get, it just depends on the school and who actually works there. But experience often counts for a lot. Especially if you go look up some of the professors and tell them you are thinking about going back to school and need some advice about how to do it. Ask them if they have accelerated programs. Make friends. Just like you would if you were trying to get beta for a climb. Don't treat them as an adversary. Most professors are people who like to help, if you give them a chance. You just have to provide the desire and the will, they will help you find the way.
More to consider, if you do decide to go to school and you need to move, consider renting your home out instead of selling. Keep it and retire there when you are able.
Just some thoughts. I think everyone here is rooting for you.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 37 of total 37 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!