Museum climbs?

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G_Gnome

Sport climber
Everywhere, man...
Sep 11, 2007 - 04:09pm PT
'You Asked for It' does in fact have all new bolts. You still won't see me on it.

As for Joe's question, I think the routes got neglected because tastes in routes changed and those of us that kept climbing 'trad' didn't bother to go do maintenance. Now that there are actually new people that would like to do some of these routes, they are in such bad shape that they aren't doable. I firmly believe that once these routes get new protection more people will do them. Now there are still quite a few routes that few will ever do, but then that is as it's supposed to be. There just aren't many people born in each generation with the skillset and mindset to do routes like 'You Asked for It' or 'Guardians of the Galaxy'. But that is a GOOD thing.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 11, 2007 - 04:13pm PT
John: I'm guessing the fellow in the plus fours probably wouldn't shoot any foxes, either.

Edit: I believe John B, and/or Dave Y, have set a good example by returning to the Bachar-Yerian, replacing the bolts with modern ones, and slightly changing the locations of belay bolts for belayer safety.
bachar

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Sep 11, 2007 - 04:28pm PT
I am getting my money together to install an escalator up "You Asked For It" so that Werner can go do it. He's been gaining even more weight than I have by sitting in that museum of his....

Joking aside, I gotta agree with Gnome when he stated,
" I think the routes got neglected because tastes in routes changed and those of us that kept climbing 'trad' didn't bother to go do maintenance. Now that there are actually new people that would like to do some of these routes, they are in such bad shape that they aren't doable."

I personally can't wait to go to Elbsandstein and experience their crazy bold lines that were put up decades ago and I also hope they preserve them as they are for the future.
We have some beautifully bold climbs here in the US and Canada and we should be proud of them. We should just do faithful maintenance on them and let them be as they are - climbers of the future will appreciate it!


jghedge

climber
Sep 11, 2007 - 04:30pm PT
"As for Joe's question, I think the routes got neglected because tastes in routes changed..."

The direction of the sport also changed, away from the artificial difficulty of contrived runouts and towards actual difficulty. Interesting to see how the result of that change of direction, namely sport climbers being the ones who are today pushing trad standards, is exactly the opposite of what was predicted by the anti-rap bolting mentality of the 80's. Which is the same mentality that's trying to tell us how important it is to preserve a tradition which has resulted in museum climbs with bad fixed gear and contrived runouts that no one ever does. Hmm...
ground_up

Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
Sep 11, 2007 - 04:44pm PT
It seems simple....Replace any anchor that has become unsafe, original protection bolt if unsafe, leave the runouts( that is part of the character of a climb), do not add any bolts unless those that did the fa agree...no?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2007 - 04:55pm PT
Is "You Asked For It" that route with that one bolt where Don Hardner stuck his finger in the hanger and then fell pulling all his skin off??

I remember leading that pitch and it was scary, but forgot the name.

Still the escalator will work too.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Sep 11, 2007 - 05:02pm PT
The problem with Joe's argument, as with all arguments supporting the "advance in difficulty as a result of sportclimbing" (approximate quote) is that it only focuses on the technical difficulty of the moves. There are other "difficulties" in climbing. The biggest difficulty, and the one that gives climbing its greatest beauty, is the mental control and focus of making difficult move when the climbing is runout, the pro is poor, etc. By saying that runout routes are contrived ignores and/or devalues that very real aspect of climbing. Advances in numbers are not necessarily advances in style. Style is all, numbers are of secondary importance.

If you talk to a Spaniard, they'll tell you that bullfighting is a beautiful sport because the matador is not fighting the bull. He's fighting his urge to runaway and to control his fear. I'm not a bullfighting fan, but the analogy is apt.

Climbers of yore did not "contrive" to make routes runout. Most runout climbs are that way because of the difficulty or limitations of placing gear, not because of the purposeful decision to make the climb runout just because. Realization may be a monument to technical difficulty (no disrespect to Sharma because is a pure, awesome climber) but Bachar-Yerian is a monument to respect for the rock (JB only placed bolts when he could find a knob big enough to hold a hook) and mental control.

Not that people talk about it anymore, but climbers like Jim Erickson and others used to aspire to climb with the minimum amount of "aid" possible, whether it be a rope, chalk, shoes, to make the experience more pure. That is a worthy goal, not one to be sniffed at because it means that you can't climb bigger numbers. If you don't get or appreciate that you shouldn't be participating in this discussion.
Wild Bill

climber
Ca
Sep 11, 2007 - 05:03pm PT
"The direction of the sport also changed, away from the artificial difficulty of contrived runouts and towards actual difficulty."

Haha, I nearly spewed my coffee when I read that one.

Runout = artificial difficulty, while gymnastic sport moves = actual difficulty?

Soooooooooooooooo, climbing is physical, but not mental? Methinks you'd best start a new thread on that topic, and be sure to address your query to LEB to ensure you get the most complete answser.



YUP edit: Yeah, what Fat Dad said.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
Otto, NC
Sep 11, 2007 - 05:14pm PT
There are, quite obviously, different aspects of 'difficulty'. Sport climbs lie flat along the danger axis, but spike upwards in technical difficulty. Easy but runout is the mirror image of this kind of thing. Climbs that redline the technical difficulty as well as relative risk are deserving of great respect.

There are zillions of dime-a-dozen, 'safe' crags around. Those who want to do hard moves without sticking their necks out should climb on these. On another day, one might choose to engage the fortitude muscles a bit more and run things out a bit. There is a place for each of these in my life as a climber, and I for one am glad that both options (and ones in between)exist.

Rob

somewhere between Monitor and the Black
bachar

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Sep 11, 2007 - 05:27pm PT
Hell, runouts are just plain fun - check out how much fun this guy is having!

bob

climber
Sep 11, 2007 - 05:31pm PT
So John, have you gone up and done that thing again? Was just curious because you ahve showed a bit of interest in a thread you started. If no, can I watch when you do????? Camera and all.
Bob J.
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Sep 11, 2007 - 05:32pm PT
Hell, runouts are just plain fun - check out how much fun this guy is having!

Bwhahahaha! Too right JB, too right!
bachar

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Sep 11, 2007 - 05:38pm PT
I knew that would please Russ...heh heh

If these sport climbers are so good, how come they aren't waltzing up these "museum climbs" ? (Joe?)....

Edit:
bob - no problem - bring a tripod so the photo isn't blurred when I take the super fun artificial whipper on the artificial runout....
seamus mcshane

climber
Sep 11, 2007 - 05:41pm PT
Trad=ground up.
Joe doesn't get that.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2007 - 05:55pm PT
So?

After all you bad ass climbers get old and can't get out of your chairs anymore, then what?

Do you make signs that your routes are now museum pieces?
bachar

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Sep 11, 2007 - 05:59pm PT
No...

We build escalators Werner!


bob

climber
Sep 11, 2007 - 06:02pm PT
Nice John, thanks! Just need to know when. Also, last post is absolutely hilarious!!
Bob J
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 11, 2007 - 06:04pm PT
I've wondered about a climb getting the reputation of a "death runout" when, in fact, no one has ever died doing it...
...in fact, there seems to be a rather healthy inhibition among American climbers regarding pushing things into the death zone. They tend to back off.

In my way of thinking, that is the correct thing to do on those climbs which the FA feels were protected appropriately. Some climbs are scary, and require a level of accomplishment and commitment to climb. They should be left alone for future climbers, the hardware should be maintained by the community, but not modified.

There are a class of climbs which Roger refered to which are not test pieces, but were incompletely equipped, a legacy of FA's which may be difficult for people who don't do FA's to understand (the majority of climbers these days have never done a Trad FA). An example is Snake Dike which Roper tells us received additional bolts after the FA since it was such an obviously great, moderately easy line... There are probably other climbs out there where the FA team would be happy to have additional bolts added... they should be asked when possible. If Kauk and TM and Roger all agree that Black Bart would be ok with additional bolts, then maybe that's fine.

I say maybe because at some point a climb becomes so a part of the community that it is beyond the authority of the FA to alter it...

There is no answer to the question posed by Werner. This topic will and should always require a lot of discussion in the community. It's entirely appropriate to have it often and expansively, the FA team is mortal, and after their time is up, their ideas of what to do with their climbs will be lost except for the discussions.

But if I am a climber, I believe that it matters, that the ideas of the FA were important, and that I have to be careful when I contemplate altering a climb permanently. Certainly no climb is like the FA of that climb, the gifts of the FA are a one time deal, unless the history is lost. In that case, we have lost something important from our community.

But it also says something about ourselves if we assume our own ideas about a climb over ride what the local ideas, often based on long tradition, of a climb should be. I imagine a line climbed by some early climbers who left no trace, and did not report the climb so someone else would have the experience of an FA. How horrible would it be for me to find I bolted it up because I thought I was the FA, that I did not do it in the style of the true FA, who might have never known even earlier FAs.

On known climbs which are "dangerous," it can only be ego to assert that it is my right to be able to climb it on my own terms, therefore it should be protected to satisfy my own standards of "safety." Maybe if I'm insisting on that I am climbing for the wrong reasons.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2007 - 06:04pm PT
Hahahaha ...

It's not going to go away John.

Everything will fall apart in the end ..... and then!

There will be a rebirth.

You and Kauk will be there in the next life.

Maybe ........... as sport climbers, hahahaha
jghedge

climber
Sep 11, 2007 - 06:12pm PT
"Climbers of yore did not "contrive" to make routes runout. Most runout climbs are that way because of the difficulty or limitations of placing gear, not because of the purposeful decision to make the climb runout just because."

Uh, no. Climbers of yore did contrive to make routes runout. Runouts exist because of both the sheer labor of hand drilling, and the desire to make the route as runout as the FA sees fit - see Largo's reference's in his writings to "keeping the fluff off"; i.e. making routes more runout than they had to be. I also don't buy that there's only 4 possible hook placements on the entire 120', knob-covered 2nd pitch of the B-Y.

Again, there is a reason those routes fell into disrepair in the first place. The sport advanced to where it is today because contrived difficulty and artificial runouts were abandoned. You're not gonna get people to go backwards in time, and return the sport to the pre-1980's, just because you replace bad bolts.

Gotta go ride my bike now - peace out see you tomorrow
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