Getting Plucked off El Cap

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'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?

Oct 27, 2004 - 05:37pm PT

Holy frig, David - a bivi sack is fundamental to survival in a storm! Don't leave the ground - EVER - without one for every team member!

Tom - you write that your Bibler bivi sack was bombproof. Can you define that, please? Did it actually keep your sleeping bag dry? Or did it eventually soak through? Were you lying in it in a puddle? If it eventually soaked through, were you still able to stay warm inside your synthetic sleeping bag wearing your synthetic clothes?

Thanks!

More beers, less bars. [I can't stand those bars. Sheesh.]

ricardo

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Oct 27, 2004 - 05:47pm PT

wow ..

reading the description of the gear that was neccesary to make it through the storm makes it pretty clear ... if this storm had hit about 8 or 9 days earlier i would have been in deep sh#t ..

.. my weather gear was nowhere near what you guys had .. i'll have to rethink the whole storm preparedness deal..

ricardo

Holdplease2

Trad climber

All over

Oct 27, 2004 - 06:14pm PT

OK, I'm a p*ssy, but here's my storm gear for winter climbs (in Zion only, so far):

Bibler bivy - protects from condensation, a backup if the fly rips or water is forced in during a storm...likely.

SEAM SEALED storm fly (metolius, has RF welded clip in/tie in point)

Dry bag with one full outfit (fleece pants, fleece shirt, socks) so that if the outfit I am in gets soaked, I can switch. Also nice and used as a "change of clothes" on long climbs.

Pillow (This is the wussy part) - I don't carry an extra pillow...I carry an extra sleeping bag in a pillow case with trash bag liner. Drop my primary bag? (the ultra dumb thing, but with cold hands it could happen) Primary bag gets soaked? Switch them out. This is overkill, but I don't care. Because I solo, I have room for a pillow...why not have one that does double duty?

Outer Shell: Gore-tex storm pants. Non-gore tex storm jacket...waterproof breathable isn't always best, mine is completely waterproof.

Boots: for the walk off, on winter walls I climb in gore-tex and nikwaxed boots. Standard "wall shoes" might not do much good in storm conditions. No frozen wet feet wanted, thank you.

Gloves: Windstopper fleece gloves and moisture barrier outer mitten.

Head: Balaclava (this is new)

It sounds like alot, but it is no different from my summer wall gear, except that the pillow is actually a pillow and I climb in different shoes. I don't care if its heavy, for an extra 10 pounds I can be more assured of being warm and being alive. In the summer, that 10 pounds would be in extra water. So eiter way, its all the same.

Anyway, thats what I do. And being solo, I can't rely on my partner for backup gear.

-Kate.

rwedgee

Ice climber

canyon country,CA

Oct 27, 2004 - 07:37pm PT

Tommy, if you put some a few pounds of 'stuff' on the floor of the fly(between the ledge & fly) it will create a space so you're not sitting in the puddle that is trapped in the bottom of the fly. We tossed the iron in a bag & put it down below. It gave the water a place to drain & kept it a few inches below our butts. By the way Tommy, I'm the Chris you & Erik saw ice climbing in Colorado last year. Remember...Tommy Thomson, Erik Erikson, Chris Christenson, & Karen Karenendez? Glad you guys are ok. Let me know about the gear. Chris

David Nelson

climber

San Francisco

Oct 27, 2004 - 08:25pm PT

I can understand a bivvy sack for a winter ascent, but think it is overkill for Yosemite in the summer. The hailstorms, snowstorms, and rainstorms we get in the summer should be able to be gotten through with a portaledge with a functioning fly, waterproof upper and lower outerwear, synthetic bag, synthetic clothes (I like a hat, too, but balaclava is great), and good sense + cellphone. You need to be prepared for a storm, but in the summer, it should be over in 24-48 hours. Or do you all bring a bivvy sack in the summer? Of course, one would have to define summer, too. After May 15 and before Sept 15.

What do you guys (and gals) think?

Tommy, thanks for your input and advice. I think it will help us all.

Holdplease2

Trad climber

All over

Oct 27, 2004 - 08:53pm PT

I bring a bivy sack in the summer because for a light rain at night I dont' want to thrash around with my fly. My bivy sack sits on the ledge with me, I whip it out if I need it.

The fly is hanging under the ledge in the summer and only comes out if it looks like its going to be an all day rain.

I don't know if its necessary to have both, probably not, its just the way I do it. I'll let others comment on the necessity.

I'm far from light and fast...I probably climb 15 pounds heavier than I need to at any given time, but I don't mind. Its a balance, and largely individual preference.

Again, my wall experience is not extensive as some of yours, so take it for what its worth.

-Kate.

rwedgee

Ice climber

canyon country,CA

Oct 27, 2004 - 08:54pm PT

One item I've found to work pretty well is my kayak dry top. It seals around the neck & wrists like a wet suit so water doesn't get in when you're reaching up. It still sucks to climb or jug in the rain, but it seems to suck a little less with dry arm pits. Mine doesn't have a hood but I think you can get one on a regular(non-white water) paddeling jacket. They come in G-tex & water proof(cheaper)material.

atchafalaya

Trad climber

California

Oct 27, 2004 - 09:08pm PT

I prefer a complete neoprene wetsuit, works well in off-widths, dont have to take it off to urinate, and eliminates a sleeping bag, ledge, fly, and raingear... I have sewn a harness with racking loops on it, and a chest harness so I can bail the gear loops. Pete told me about it... its the BETTER WAY

Holdplease2

Trad climber

All over

Oct 27, 2004 - 09:21pm PT

I only wear my wetsuit if I also have my avalung. Very important to have an avalung if you're wearing neoprene. You never know when you could start to suffocate in your own bs. ;)

-Kate.

Brock

Trad climber

RENO, NV

Oct 28, 2004 - 12:10am PT

Integral Designs "Salathe Bivy" did me just right during a Spring ascent up Reg. Route of Half Dome. It was the only cover I had as I was getting pounded with a waterfall and laying in an inch of water. I stayed dry other than sticking my head out to check how things were going. I HIGHLY recommend a bivy sack even in summer, forgo the sleeping back if you have to and take the bivy sack! Just goes to show how bringing the right equipment and clothes can save your butt.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?

Oct 28, 2004 - 12:33am PT

Evidently Dr. David has never spent a night under a portaledge fly during a rainstorm, and is unaware that portaledge flies LEAK. Pay attention boys and girls - when Dr. Piton writes the word "fundamental" in bold text, as he did above, it really means "pay frickin' attention or you will bloody end up dead!"

Yes, you sure as hell bring a bivi sack 100% of the time on a Grade VI big wall, even in the summer. Remember, "any fool can be uncomfortable." A bivi sack weighs next to nothing, and will keep you alive during the worst weather, and comfortable during the not too bad.

If you can't afford a bivi sack, bring a few heavy duty garbage bags or a tarp. But you sure as heck need a secondary layer of protection against water under your fly.

Balaclava, hat and tube scarfs weigh next to nothing as well, and provide huge benefits in comfort. And don't forget a couple pairs of toasty warm dry socks.

As for wetsuits, there are two kinds of cavers:

Those who admit to peeing in their wetsuits, and those who lie about it.

kismetcapitan

Trad climber

Seoul Korea

Oct 28, 2004 - 01:04am PT

I have a ten-year old North Face wall jacket that has wrist and neck seals. Damned thing does seal completely at the neck though, and the inner wrist seals are bunk; they're watertight so long as you never move your arms. Nice showpiece though.

Melissa

Big Wall climber

oakland, ca

Oct 28, 2004 - 01:03pm PT

Dr. David...Your definition of 'summer' (weather-wise) as beginning in the middle of May and stretching into the middle of September cuts into 'shoulder season' too much for my comfort.

jurach

Big Wall climber

sacramento, ca

Nov 3, 2004 - 11:57pm PT

Glad you made it down, Tom! And thanks for what you’ve done here – your experience has evolved into a discussion that will make every wall rat smarter and safer.

I favor the bivy bag approach. For the longer definition of summer, it serves 2 purposes – keeps you dry, and keeps you warm. A sleeping bag is redundant to your clothing layers, and I’ve not seen anyone yet who can climb well in a sleeping bag.

My choice is to go deep in synthetic clothing. At night, or in a light storm, they will keep you warm and dry in a bivy sack. Plus, you can climb in your clothes – at night or if weather changes. No need for a sleeping bag. And while I don’t favor the wetsuit, there are occasional uses for a snorkel, but I’ll leave that for another discussion --- Jeff

Michael Boos

Mountain climber

Zurich, Switzerland

Nov 4, 2004 - 07:54am PT

Thanks, Tom for sharing this experience, your feelings and decision making situation as well as the review of the equipment aspects!

A bivy bag goes always with you if there is a slight chance to spend a night somewhere unvoluntary - it is all said (and written 'nough times all over). I guess yo made the point of its importance, together with the other commentators who have shared their experience as well - thank you too.

I am glad you all made it until today!

climbera5

Trad climber

Sacramento

Nov 4, 2004 - 02:30pm PT

I'm surprised nobody has suggested putting a couple of large grommets into the bottom of the bivy for drainage. That was one of the first things I did when I bought mine. However I've yet to experience a downpour to test it's effectiveness.

Good story Tom, hell of an epic. I would have bailed earlier with the poison oak. Good job.