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Eddie
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2004 - 09:45pm PT
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Isn't 911 (9-11) the standard rescue channel? Just made sense to me, never really looked it up. Link, do you guys monitor the wee radios? And a crazy thanks to Yosar and everyone else involved!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2004 - 12:30pm PT
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At the time most of those parties headed up El Cap, the weather report was calling for about a 20 percent chance of rain on two or three days. Later it went to 60 percent on some days, but when it went to 100 percent, it became a 100 precent nightmare.
When I soloed Zodiac in 1982, I had a cd band walkie talkie. My buddy used to come every evening and say hello. He used to bring beautiful women with him for some reason and it sort of tormented me to be imprisioned up there while he was living it up.
When the nasty storm hit I was on peanut ledge. I was determined to make it "do or die" but it was a temptation to fold cause I was underequiped (since it was snowing in late June!) and the rangers were always in the meadow, talking down other parties, rescueing other folks, and whatnot. I probably wasn't in as bad a spot as most.
Finally Shipoopi came down with my friend and told me that waiting out the storm wouldn't work cause more and more was on the way. The clouds would part a bit and I'd fix a pitch. Then sit out more storm. Then went for one pitch below the top. I took two plain aspirin to help me sleep that night and woke up and my whole body was practially completely numb! That was scary. I just had to hope it got better and it did.
Made if off the next day when the weather cleared long enough for me to meet a couple friends on top. I didn't relish rapping back down the haul line on that last pitch and I can't imagine how Linc and Werner rap down snowy slabs into the void to save sorry blokes like us.
Sar rules. Major props to everyone who suffered to help this last rescue
Peace
Karl
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Oct 26, 2004 - 12:50pm PT
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Hmm... Eddie raises an interesting question for me. Certainly we all know that 911 is the phone help number. Any of you folks out there ever tried to establish or consider Channel 9 Code 11 as the emergency channel for the Moto type walkie-talkies?
I realize 420 is the most traveled frequency on the Moto band so certainly you should be able to raise someone for help on that band. It would be the best place to start for sure.
(and if you don't understand why 420 is popular please ask :-)
I will say it was fun to use 420 in the Vampires this last summer. Strangely, we never heard anyone else the entire time :-\.
And in thinking about these past rescues it makes me ponder what we were up against in the middle of nowhere high up on a granite will. The Canadian Mounties, our chopper pilot and any climbers you might be able to scrounge from the Cirque would be the "best" outside options. Understanding your limits and increasing you ability to self-rescue clearly were our "BEST" options.
I wonder though, how many parties before going up on El Cap think "well, SAR is down there so we have that emergency 'net'". I wonder how many folks get in over their heads by trapping themselves with that mentality.
I guess in the face of all the tragedy from last week many of us have taken this time for reflection. From emergency blanket discusstion to patching rain flys to moto emergency channels, this sort of thinking and offering is pretty constructive. Keep it up.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 26, 2004 - 05:00pm PT
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Copied from a different thread where my questions weren't answered:
I was unaware of the deaths of the Japanese climbers until told so by the TV dude during an interview - I was amazed and shocked to say the least! They were only a few pitches from the top - why didn't anyone go save them?!
When he learned of this later, Leo said to me with great sadness,
"If we had only known they were up there, a few of us could have jugged up the East Ledges and dropped 'em a rope...."
Please don't misunderstand me - I am not saying anything negative about the rescuers who stick their necks not only on but well over the line, but can someone like Werner or Link please explain to us why nobody was up there sooner to save those poor buggers? The weather was likely to poor to fly the helicopter, but couldn't some YOSAR guys have gotten up there somehow? Jugging the East Ledges? Hiking the Falls Trail? Coming in from Tamarack Flat?
Thoughts?
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bware
Sport climber
CA
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Oct 26, 2004 - 05:35pm PT
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It's certainly a tragedy, and thanks to Link, YOSAR, and other rescuers, and condolences to the families and friends of the Japanese climbers.
I was thinking about heading up that week for my semi-regular El Cap birthday climb (the weather is usually pretty good right now, I managed to get on El Cap six years in a row on my birthday), but checked the forecast this year and decided things were looking sketchy.
Ten day forecasts are not that reliable, but for those interested:
http://weather.unisys.com/mrf/index.html
The week before, the MRF showed a series of low pressures coming down from Alaska in the time frame of the rescues. The MRF was more pessimistic than what weather.com was showing for the week ahead, which as Karl said was kinda 20% ish for a couple of days (until it was clear that the storm would be big, a couple of days beforehand, but too late to be of use for anyone who had already blasted).
Also the Dweeb Report (google for the current website) for Mammoth has a pretty good indication of what's in store for Mammoth, and one can extrapolate to Yosemite.
Of course these semi-obscure forecasts aren't necessarily easy to get in the Valley; it would be nice if they were posted every evening on the kiosk at Camp 4, but that's not likely. And they aren't always right - I've had to bail in a similar storm that was completely unpredicted.
I'm not claiming any special wisdom in avoiding this storm (hadn't even really made the decision to go for sure), just hopefully pointing out some forecasts that might be useful for other climbers.
Brent
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 26, 2004 - 05:48pm PT
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Pete,
That is a good question, why didn't they go in sooner...?
I am pretty sure that on Monday afternoon the rangers were unaware of the party on the Nose. I say this because a Ranger and the head of SAR came over to our scope and looked over the Nose. None of us saw them from our vantage point in the meadow.
On Tuesday morning I believe someone reported that they were overdue. By Tuesday afternoon they had made contact and began hiking in. Tuesday night they froze.
Sure if YOSAR has knonw they were up ther a day earlier...they'd probly be alive now.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Oct 26, 2004 - 07:17pm PT
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Pete,
Maybe you should ask yourself why you didn't go to the meadow yourself just to make sure that the others who were on the rock when you were also fixing had gotten off? If anyone who was familiar with the run off on the Nose saw and reported that there was a party on Camp 6 maybe things would have ended differently for the Japanese team. I think that having a SAR team around not only lends folks to being lazy about saving their own hide, but also about jumping to rescue someone else or about just checking up on their compadres on the wall. It's like, if your neighbor's house was raging on fire, would you call the fire dept. yourself, or would you assume that they already had been contacted and would take care of things? Perhaps it would have been more useful (than criticizing SAR now) if you and Leo (and all of your knowledge of El Cap) had found Link or Lober on Monday morning when it was clear that the storm wasn't breaking and asked them what you could do to help get rescues underway as quickly as possible?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 26, 2004 - 07:30pm PT
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No Lambone, they didn't die tues night. It was about 2.30 in the afternoon, tues 19/04. I was probably the last person to see them alive. He was covering his climbing partner, the girl, with his own body. He had a small tarp that he wrapped himself and her. A couple hours later the tarp was flapping away from them and there was no movement.
Werner
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ricardo
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 26, 2004 - 07:33pm PT
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I dont think pete was critizicing (sp?) SAR ..
.. just asking for what the sequence of events in SAR were..
.. seems to me that if SAR had known that people were up there on monday, they would have sent a team then. -- (thats what i inferred by lambone's post)
 ricardo
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 26, 2004 - 07:43pm PT
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I talked with Keith on Monday afternoon. He asked if anyone was on the Nose. I said I saw lights on Saturday night up high, but wasn't sure if they were still on it. He looked through our scope for a minute and drove off.
WBraun, I was with Brandon in the Meadow all day on Tuesday. You stopped by for a moment, that was late in the afternoon about 2pm when you said you were driving to El Portal to get propane. We sat there for another couple hours while the Bridalveil team monitored the climbers and relayed to us. Brandon and I left the meadow about 4pm, and we understood they were still climbing. Regardless of whether they died at night or in the afternoon, if a rescue had been sent earlier I think there may have been a chance.
Hindsight is allways 20/20...not trying to be critical, but I think it is pretty clear that YOSAR initiating a rescue almost 3 days after the storm started was just too late.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Oct 26, 2004 - 07:47pm PT
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I'm glad that you were watching, Lambone. Just saying that you saw lights probably kept them looking. Hopefully, anyway. I was wishing that I was in the Valley to do something myself.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 26, 2004 - 08:00pm PT
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I wanted to do more, but it was really henious out, even on the ground, we were freezing standing in the meadow under a tarp. About all I could do was keep some of the YOSAR guys company and fetch hot coffee. It was a terrible feeling. I volounteered to help cary loads to the top, but they seemed to have it covered and wern't really looking for help.
The problem was that you can't really see Camp 6 from the meadow very well. On Monday afternoon it cleared up for a while, but we couldn't see them.
The next morning I was in the lodge hanging out when a ranger approached two Jappanese climbers and told them that a party had been reported missing. At that point we headed to the meadow to help look and listen.
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10b4me
Trad climber
Where Fair Oaks meets Altadena
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Oct 26, 2004 - 08:24pm PT
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I want to thank Linc, Werner, and the rest of the people on YOSAR. they did an outstanding job.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 26, 2004 - 08:28pm PT
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Thats true if a rescue was initiated earlier they would have stood a chance. I went with Lober at 7:30am to El Cap meadow and there were no sounds. Lober started hollering and he said he heard some faint sounds but he didn't know which party was making them nor what they were.( the winds and clouds were the problem). We drove back and he started the initiating the drive to find out what's really going on. Remember now, before this time there were, no official cries for help, nor reports of cries for help from any party that NPS was aware of.
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Matt
climber
SF
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Oct 26, 2004 - 08:37pm PT
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seems more appropriate to focus on the lives that were saved and the all good that was done by those who were involved.
pete wrote:
Copied from a different thread where my questions weren't answered:
I was unaware of the deaths of the Japanese climbers until told so by the TV dude during an interview - I was amazed and shocked to say the least! They were only a few pitches from the top - why didn't anyone go save them?!
seems like you should limit yourself to lamenting the fact that they died, not the fact that no one saved them, and maybe after these SAR guys spend their week dealing w/ all of that, the last thing they need is to justify anything to some guy on the internet...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 26, 2004 - 08:43pm PT
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Uh dude....
If you're going to quote me, you should at least quote the remainder of the post to put my comments into context. My feelings and specific questions are clearly stated.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Oct 26, 2004 - 09:00pm PT
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Nothing like taking things out of context, eh?
(And for what it's worth, I'm not a Pete fan. That said, I'm not disagreeing with him on the above).
I think it is very appropriate to ask these questions. As long as the 100% intent is to learn not blame then I see no problem with embracing these thoughts. That's great they saved people - I bet they learned things from past tragedies that allowed them to save more this time. Live and learn, dude - maybe we learn from this and next time the number is zero, not two.
Melissa wrote: " I think that having a SAR team around not lends folks to being lazy about saving their own hide, but also about jumping to rescue someone else or about just checking up on their compadres on the wall." In some ways this is an answer to a question/statement above. I'm glad to see someone ponders/thinks the same as I on this. My insanity is still there.
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Matt
climber
SF
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Oct 26, 2004 - 09:00pm PT
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out of context?
are you serious?
'uhhh', it's right there'like' a few inches above my post, 'eh'?
"Please don't misunderstand me - I am not saying anything negative about the rescuers who stick their necks not only on but well over the line, but can someone like Werner or Link please explain to us why nobody was up there sooner to save those poor buggers?"
you are feeling misquoted?
maybe you should read it again...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 27, 2004 - 02:17am PT
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It is a gracious thing that YOSAR exists to help climbers in trouble in the Valley. But their existence does not mean that they can help all climbers in trouble. What happened is a tragedy, and one that repeats itself often for us climbers. We take a risk going where we go, it is a deliberate act we undertake with full personal responsibility. We must be, and are, thankful that a group of individuals will take on a grave risk and attempt a rescue in poor conditions, it is an act they take unselfishly for the welfare of others.
All climbers know what could happen to them and all climbers accept that possible fate. It is not within YOSAR's power to avert all tragedies.
I give my heart felt condolence to the family and friends of the Japanese team who died on El Capitan. Thier deaths should be a reminder to us all, one more bitter lesson, that when we adventure into the inaccessible vertical we must be prepared to be on our own. Even when help might be only a thousand feet away, it may still not be close enough.
Thank you YOSAR and the NPS for your actions on behalf of the climbers. While I was not one of them, someday I could be.
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Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2004 - 04:36am PT
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Pete, Lambone, and others: You raise some important and serious questions. For that I thank you, but I also need to caution you that these questions strike powerful notes with those of us involved in last week's rescue effort. If your questions are heartfelt, you can imagine the heartfelt seriousness with which we, Yosemite's rescue team, are asking the same questions.
I honestly believe everyone invovled in this rescue effort did an amazing job, but of course we're left wondering how we could have done better. Two people died. How could we have saved them? We as climbers need to learn all that we can from this accident, and we as rescuers need to do the same. That being said, I will say flat out, for the record, so it's clear to everyone, Yosemite's search and rescue team did an outstanding job last week. Could we have done more? Of course, but please, don't let a effort to learn from this accident degenerate into one side pointing fingers while the other tries to defend itself.
"Why didn't someone rescue them sooner?" is an important question, but possibly more useful questions are:
If no one asks for a rescue, should the NPS automatically rescue teams off El Cap after a certain amount of time? Two days? Three days?
How much responsibility should the NPS have for monitoring poeple in wilderness areas? How much self reliance should climbing teams have?
What could this team itself have done differently to survive the storm? What could they have done to insure the NPS would know when they needed help?
I don't ask these questions to start a flame war between opinions. The point is to try and answer Pete's original question: why didn't someone rescue them sooner?
I don't know the answer, but I do know it's not simple.
My apologies if I am slow to respond to this thread. My season is over for the year, and I will be gone from the valley until next spring. Of course I will do my best to answer what I can from elsewhere. Thanks to everyone for another amazing summer in the best place on earth.
Climb safe, climb clean, keep warm, and think positive.
-Link
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