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Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 24, 2004 - 09:29pm PT
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As most people following this site (or watching the news) know, there was a serious storm in Yosemite last week. It started late on the night of Saturday October 16th and continued through Wednesday afternoon. The snow level dropped below four thousand feet at its lowest, and climbers stranded on routes in the Valley experienced gale force winds, rain, hail, snow, and freezing temperatures. This was definitely the worst fall storm Yosemite Valley has seen in a good while, both in its intensity and duration.
Two Japanese climbers died from exposure near the top of the Nose on El Cap before we (Yosemite’s rescue team) were able to reach them. Luckily, we were able to rescue three other teams: Tom and Eric off Never Never Land, Dave off Tempest, and Marisol and Tom off the Salathe head wall.
The last week has been an intense, awful, wonderful, exhausting, inspiring, and freezing experience. Almost a hundred people from the Yosemite community came together to help in the rescue effort: rangers, sar siters, locals, friends of locals, friends of friends of friends of locals, and dozens of other people willing to offer their help in some of the worst conditions I’ve seen on the Captain. Though in the end we were unable to rescue two of the seven people stranded on the wall, it was truly amazing to see such a large group come together to help those we could.
I’ll post more details soon and answer what questions I can. This tragedy, like other climbing accidents, raises many questions that climbers will debate long after our rain gear has dried. With all respect to those who lost friends last week, those who almost lost friends, and those who did their best to help when they could, we need to learn what we can from what happened and do our best to prevent it from happening again.
Though Yosemite Valley saw a tragedy play out this week, it also saw an inspsiring effort from a wonderful community.
Climb safe and stay dry,
-Link
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Oct 25, 2004 - 03:34pm PT
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I'm sure you have heard it 100 times - one more won't hurt.
Thank you.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Oct 25, 2004 - 03:36pm PT
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Well, in an effort to take away a few lessons from the tragedy...
How many, if any teams were high on ElCap when the storm hit and continued on to the summit with out a rescue after the weather cleared? In your opinion, what was the primary factor(equipment, location, strategy, etc.) that allowed them to avoid a rescue?
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Southern Man
climber
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Oct 25, 2004 - 03:50pm PT
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Link:
I didn't hear of any rescues on Half Dome. I know that HD isn't as tall as El Cap and the routes go pretty quick, but since the Reg. NW Face sees so much traffic, I would be supprised if there were no climbers on that wall when the storm hit. What's the stroy there? Also, what type of rain/snow gear did the couple from Japan have, if any? Lastly, what a great job you and the rest of the rescuers did last week!! I'm sure there are countless stories of bravery, heroism, and courage shown on the Captain that most of us will never hear of. You guys humble me.
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Good Morning!
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Oct 25, 2004 - 03:52pm PT
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David,
Although circumstances vary slightly, if you haven't read John Dill's "Staying Alive" piece in the guidebook, it is a good place to start.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Oct 25, 2004 - 04:28pm PT
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Thanks for the reference GoodMorning. I've read it and feel confident that I know how to survive bad weather. Most of us on this site probably think the same thing. I'm stil curious as to whether or not those basic tips would have made a difference in this particular situation. Were there teams that climbed through this storm with out major incident or did everyone retreat to the ground or resort to a rescue?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 25, 2004 - 04:37pm PT
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David, there were five parties close to the summit on Saturday night. Never Never Land, Tempest, Salathe, Nose, and Mescalito.
The Mescalito Party was the only party to top out before the rain came.
There was another party on the 4th pitch of the Trip. They fixed the 5th pitch during the storm then bailed. Bags still up there. There might have been another party low on the Nose that bailed also.
Link,
Thanks for the discussion and answering questions at free coffe on Sunday morning. It was good to meet you. I was the guy asking you some questions in the red coat. Nice to meet you, thanks for the hard work and free coffee!
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Oct 25, 2004 - 04:42pm PT
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Thanks Lambone.
btw. The J.Dill article will appear again in the next edition but if there are any new lessons learned this would be the time to incorporate them.
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Swain
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2004 - 04:47pm PT
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Hey Link,
It might be an idea to have a more up to date weather report (say every day) posted at the ranger office in camp 4 so that folk have a better sense of the upcoming weather. This recent storm seem to have caught a lot of people by suprise.
Thanks for all the hard work and courage last week.
A
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 25, 2004 - 04:59pm PT
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David,
I think the biggest lesson learned is to let someone know which route you are on and your game plan and have them check on you if the storm comes. Bring some form of communication.
Keith, the head of YOSAR, was searcching the Nose on Monday afternoon for climbers, but we didn't see them at Camp 6.
YOSAR didn't find out about them until Tuesday, and didn't make contact with them (via screaming) until Tuesday afternoon. By then it was too late because they froze that night.
Once they heard YOSAR was coming, they tried to climb in the storm, probably during the worst of it. Perhaps they didn't want to be rescued.... that was their other Japanesse friends theory anyway.
The melting snow on the summit prevented anyone else climbing off after the storm cleared.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Oct 25, 2004 - 05:38pm PT
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I talked to one of the guys who got pulled off of Octopussy (collectively both have done probably close to 60 routes on the Captain) and he said he will never go up there again without a two-way radio to communicate with YOSAR folks.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Oct 25, 2004 - 05:46pm PT
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think YOSAR monitored a specific channel. Do they? How would you contact YOSAR? A cell phone is probably your best bet if you insist on being wired to the rest of the world no?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 25, 2004 - 06:10pm PT
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They scan the famly band (Motoroala Walkies) radios. They were talking to Dave with one.
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Demented
climber
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Oct 25, 2004 - 06:25pm PT
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pat, what else did this "guy who got pulled off of Octopussy" have to say? did their ledges sit in the middle of a waterfall? or did they stay somewhat dry? wind whip them all around? thats the stuff i am curious about
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Oct 25, 2004 - 06:35pm PT
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Demented, I'll leave it to them to tell their story. Tommy said he wrote out a TR last night, about the time when the forum went dead and he lost it when submitting it. He said when he gets a minute or two he'll re-write it.
But he did say that it was the worst storm either of them had ever seen. He also said they bailed on their Sea of Dreams plans due to a change in the weather pattern. Probably just a little bit fortuitous me thinks.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 25, 2004 - 06:50pm PT
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Talked with Tom on the Salathe. He said they were soaked and cold. He wanted to avoid a rescue, but in the end decided to call for the rope. They had two in a single ledge.
Dave hadn't seam sealed his fly and said it was leaking on his bag, and he got hit by a bunch of falling ice.
Looked pretty nasty up there.
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Brock
Trad climber
RENO, NV
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Oct 25, 2004 - 06:55pm PT
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I think posting a weather report for the week at least every other day at the Camp 4 kiosk would be invaluable to climbers. Weather.com has a very good report and would be a quick print out to post. I have used that website several times to get the jump on a wall. However, it is important to note that Sierras can create their own little rain storm very quickly, but none the magnitude of what hit these recent climbers.
Link. How prepared were the Japanese climbers for exposure? Clothing?
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ricardo
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 25, 2004 - 07:01pm PT
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Definately having someone on the ground with a radio helps while on a wall ..
I was fortunate enough to have my sister giving me weather updates, crowd updates (she kept me up-to-date on the parties below me), and other interesting tidbits ..
I dont think YOSAR monitors the family band radios, but once they need to talk to you, they will get on them to make contact.
I wonder if dave talked to yosar on his regular channel (4.20)
 ricardo
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Oct 25, 2004 - 08:00pm PT
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yes dave was broadcasting on channel 420
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StyMingersfink
climber
SLC, UT
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Oct 25, 2004 - 09:16pm PT
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good to hear dave made it out alive. thanks for the inspiration
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Eddie
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2004 - 09:45pm PT
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Isn't 911 (9-11) the standard rescue channel? Just made sense to me, never really looked it up. Link, do you guys monitor the wee radios? And a crazy thanks to Yosar and everyone else involved!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2004 - 12:30pm PT
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At the time most of those parties headed up El Cap, the weather report was calling for about a 20 percent chance of rain on two or three days. Later it went to 60 percent on some days, but when it went to 100 percent, it became a 100 precent nightmare.
When I soloed Zodiac in 1982, I had a cd band walkie talkie. My buddy used to come every evening and say hello. He used to bring beautiful women with him for some reason and it sort of tormented me to be imprisioned up there while he was living it up.
When the nasty storm hit I was on peanut ledge. I was determined to make it "do or die" but it was a temptation to fold cause I was underequiped (since it was snowing in late June!) and the rangers were always in the meadow, talking down other parties, rescueing other folks, and whatnot. I probably wasn't in as bad a spot as most.
Finally Shipoopi came down with my friend and told me that waiting out the storm wouldn't work cause more and more was on the way. The clouds would part a bit and I'd fix a pitch. Then sit out more storm. Then went for one pitch below the top. I took two plain aspirin to help me sleep that night and woke up and my whole body was practially completely numb! That was scary. I just had to hope it got better and it did.
Made if off the next day when the weather cleared long enough for me to meet a couple friends on top. I didn't relish rapping back down the haul line on that last pitch and I can't imagine how Linc and Werner rap down snowy slabs into the void to save sorry blokes like us.
Sar rules. Major props to everyone who suffered to help this last rescue
Peace
Karl
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Oct 26, 2004 - 12:50pm PT
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Hmm... Eddie raises an interesting question for me. Certainly we all know that 911 is the phone help number. Any of you folks out there ever tried to establish or consider Channel 9 Code 11 as the emergency channel for the Moto type walkie-talkies?
I realize 420 is the most traveled frequency on the Moto band so certainly you should be able to raise someone for help on that band. It would be the best place to start for sure.
(and if you don't understand why 420 is popular please ask :-)
I will say it was fun to use 420 in the Vampires this last summer. Strangely, we never heard anyone else the entire time :-\.
And in thinking about these past rescues it makes me ponder what we were up against in the middle of nowhere high up on a granite will. The Canadian Mounties, our chopper pilot and any climbers you might be able to scrounge from the Cirque would be the "best" outside options. Understanding your limits and increasing you ability to self-rescue clearly were our "BEST" options.
I wonder though, how many parties before going up on El Cap think "well, SAR is down there so we have that emergency 'net'". I wonder how many folks get in over their heads by trapping themselves with that mentality.
I guess in the face of all the tragedy from last week many of us have taken this time for reflection. From emergency blanket discusstion to patching rain flys to moto emergency channels, this sort of thinking and offering is pretty constructive. Keep it up.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 26, 2004 - 05:00pm PT
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Copied from a different thread where my questions weren't answered:
I was unaware of the deaths of the Japanese climbers until told so by the TV dude during an interview - I was amazed and shocked to say the least! They were only a few pitches from the top - why didn't anyone go save them?!
When he learned of this later, Leo said to me with great sadness,
"If we had only known they were up there, a few of us could have jugged up the East Ledges and dropped 'em a rope...."
Please don't misunderstand me - I am not saying anything negative about the rescuers who stick their necks not only on but well over the line, but can someone like Werner or Link please explain to us why nobody was up there sooner to save those poor buggers? The weather was likely to poor to fly the helicopter, but couldn't some YOSAR guys have gotten up there somehow? Jugging the East Ledges? Hiking the Falls Trail? Coming in from Tamarack Flat?
Thoughts?
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bware
Sport climber
CA
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Oct 26, 2004 - 05:35pm PT
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It's certainly a tragedy, and thanks to Link, YOSAR, and other rescuers, and condolences to the families and friends of the Japanese climbers.
I was thinking about heading up that week for my semi-regular El Cap birthday climb (the weather is usually pretty good right now, I managed to get on El Cap six years in a row on my birthday), but checked the forecast this year and decided things were looking sketchy.
Ten day forecasts are not that reliable, but for those interested:
http://weather.unisys.com/mrf/index.html
The week before, the MRF showed a series of low pressures coming down from Alaska in the time frame of the rescues. The MRF was more pessimistic than what weather.com was showing for the week ahead, which as Karl said was kinda 20% ish for a couple of days (until it was clear that the storm would be big, a couple of days beforehand, but too late to be of use for anyone who had already blasted).
Also the Dweeb Report (google for the current website) for Mammoth has a pretty good indication of what's in store for Mammoth, and one can extrapolate to Yosemite.
Of course these semi-obscure forecasts aren't necessarily easy to get in the Valley; it would be nice if they were posted every evening on the kiosk at Camp 4, but that's not likely. And they aren't always right - I've had to bail in a similar storm that was completely unpredicted.
I'm not claiming any special wisdom in avoiding this storm (hadn't even really made the decision to go for sure), just hopefully pointing out some forecasts that might be useful for other climbers.
Brent
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 26, 2004 - 05:48pm PT
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Pete,
That is a good question, why didn't they go in sooner...?
I am pretty sure that on Monday afternoon the rangers were unaware of the party on the Nose. I say this because a Ranger and the head of SAR came over to our scope and looked over the Nose. None of us saw them from our vantage point in the meadow.
On Tuesday morning I believe someone reported that they were overdue. By Tuesday afternoon they had made contact and began hiking in. Tuesday night they froze.
Sure if YOSAR has knonw they were up ther a day earlier...they'd probly be alive now.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Oct 26, 2004 - 07:17pm PT
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Pete,
Maybe you should ask yourself why you didn't go to the meadow yourself just to make sure that the others who were on the rock when you were also fixing had gotten off? If anyone who was familiar with the run off on the Nose saw and reported that there was a party on Camp 6 maybe things would have ended differently for the Japanese team. I think that having a SAR team around not only lends folks to being lazy about saving their own hide, but also about jumping to rescue someone else or about just checking up on their compadres on the wall. It's like, if your neighbor's house was raging on fire, would you call the fire dept. yourself, or would you assume that they already had been contacted and would take care of things? Perhaps it would have been more useful (than criticizing SAR now) if you and Leo (and all of your knowledge of El Cap) had found Link or Lober on Monday morning when it was clear that the storm wasn't breaking and asked them what you could do to help get rescues underway as quickly as possible?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 26, 2004 - 07:30pm PT
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No Lambone, they didn't die tues night. It was about 2.30 in the afternoon, tues 19/04. I was probably the last person to see them alive. He was covering his climbing partner, the girl, with his own body. He had a small tarp that he wrapped himself and her. A couple hours later the tarp was flapping away from them and there was no movement.
Werner
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ricardo
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 26, 2004 - 07:33pm PT
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I dont think pete was critizicing (sp?) SAR ..
.. just asking for what the sequence of events in SAR were..
.. seems to me that if SAR had known that people were up there on monday, they would have sent a team then. -- (thats what i inferred by lambone's post)
ricardo
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 26, 2004 - 07:43pm PT
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I talked with Keith on Monday afternoon. He asked if anyone was on the Nose. I said I saw lights on Saturday night up high, but wasn't sure if they were still on it. He looked through our scope for a minute and drove off.
WBraun, I was with Brandon in the Meadow all day on Tuesday. You stopped by for a moment, that was late in the afternoon about 2pm when you said you were driving to El Portal to get propane. We sat there for another couple hours while the Bridalveil team monitored the climbers and relayed to us. Brandon and I left the meadow about 4pm, and we understood they were still climbing. Regardless of whether they died at night or in the afternoon, if a rescue had been sent earlier I think there may have been a chance.
Hindsight is allways 20/20...not trying to be critical, but I think it is pretty clear that YOSAR initiating a rescue almost 3 days after the storm started was just too late.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Oct 26, 2004 - 07:47pm PT
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I'm glad that you were watching, Lambone. Just saying that you saw lights probably kept them looking. Hopefully, anyway. I was wishing that I was in the Valley to do something myself.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 26, 2004 - 08:00pm PT
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I wanted to do more, but it was really henious out, even on the ground, we were freezing standing in the meadow under a tarp. About all I could do was keep some of the YOSAR guys company and fetch hot coffee. It was a terrible feeling. I volounteered to help cary loads to the top, but they seemed to have it covered and wern't really looking for help.
The problem was that you can't really see Camp 6 from the meadow very well. On Monday afternoon it cleared up for a while, but we couldn't see them.
The next morning I was in the lodge hanging out when a ranger approached two Jappanese climbers and told them that a party had been reported missing. At that point we headed to the meadow to help look and listen.
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10b4me
Trad climber
Where Fair Oaks meets Altadena
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Oct 26, 2004 - 08:24pm PT
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I want to thank Linc, Werner, and the rest of the people on YOSAR. they did an outstanding job.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 26, 2004 - 08:28pm PT
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Thats true if a rescue was initiated earlier they would have stood a chance. I went with Lober at 7:30am to El Cap meadow and there were no sounds. Lober started hollering and he said he heard some faint sounds but he didn't know which party was making them nor what they were.( the winds and clouds were the problem). We drove back and he started the initiating the drive to find out what's really going on. Remember now, before this time there were, no official cries for help, nor reports of cries for help from any party that NPS was aware of.
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Matt
climber
SF
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Oct 26, 2004 - 08:37pm PT
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seems more appropriate to focus on the lives that were saved and the all good that was done by those who were involved.
pete wrote:
Copied from a different thread where my questions weren't answered:
I was unaware of the deaths of the Japanese climbers until told so by the TV dude during an interview - I was amazed and shocked to say the least! They were only a few pitches from the top - why didn't anyone go save them?!
seems like you should limit yourself to lamenting the fact that they died, not the fact that no one saved them, and maybe after these SAR guys spend their week dealing w/ all of that, the last thing they need is to justify anything to some guy on the internet...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 26, 2004 - 08:43pm PT
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Uh dude....
If you're going to quote me, you should at least quote the remainder of the post to put my comments into context. My feelings and specific questions are clearly stated.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Oct 26, 2004 - 09:00pm PT
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Nothing like taking things out of context, eh?
(And for what it's worth, I'm not a Pete fan. That said, I'm not disagreeing with him on the above).
I think it is very appropriate to ask these questions. As long as the 100% intent is to learn not blame then I see no problem with embracing these thoughts. That's great they saved people - I bet they learned things from past tragedies that allowed them to save more this time. Live and learn, dude - maybe we learn from this and next time the number is zero, not two.
Melissa wrote: " I think that having a SAR team around not lends folks to being lazy about saving their own hide, but also about jumping to rescue someone else or about just checking up on their compadres on the wall." In some ways this is an answer to a question/statement above. I'm glad to see someone ponders/thinks the same as I on this. My insanity is still there.
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Matt
climber
SF
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Oct 26, 2004 - 09:00pm PT
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out of context?
are you serious?
'uhhh', it's right there'like' a few inches above my post, 'eh'?
"Please don't misunderstand me - I am not saying anything negative about the rescuers who stick their necks not only on but well over the line, but can someone like Werner or Link please explain to us why nobody was up there sooner to save those poor buggers?"
you are feeling misquoted?
maybe you should read it again...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 27, 2004 - 02:17am PT
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It is a gracious thing that YOSAR exists to help climbers in trouble in the Valley. But their existence does not mean that they can help all climbers in trouble. What happened is a tragedy, and one that repeats itself often for us climbers. We take a risk going where we go, it is a deliberate act we undertake with full personal responsibility. We must be, and are, thankful that a group of individuals will take on a grave risk and attempt a rescue in poor conditions, it is an act they take unselfishly for the welfare of others.
All climbers know what could happen to them and all climbers accept that possible fate. It is not within YOSAR's power to avert all tragedies.
I give my heart felt condolence to the family and friends of the Japanese team who died on El Capitan. Thier deaths should be a reminder to us all, one more bitter lesson, that when we adventure into the inaccessible vertical we must be prepared to be on our own. Even when help might be only a thousand feet away, it may still not be close enough.
Thank you YOSAR and the NPS for your actions on behalf of the climbers. While I was not one of them, someday I could be.
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Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2004 - 04:36am PT
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Pete, Lambone, and others: You raise some important and serious questions. For that I thank you, but I also need to caution you that these questions strike powerful notes with those of us involved in last week's rescue effort. If your questions are heartfelt, you can imagine the heartfelt seriousness with which we, Yosemite's rescue team, are asking the same questions.
I honestly believe everyone invovled in this rescue effort did an amazing job, but of course we're left wondering how we could have done better. Two people died. How could we have saved them? We as climbers need to learn all that we can from this accident, and we as rescuers need to do the same. That being said, I will say flat out, for the record, so it's clear to everyone, Yosemite's search and rescue team did an outstanding job last week. Could we have done more? Of course, but please, don't let a effort to learn from this accident degenerate into one side pointing fingers while the other tries to defend itself.
"Why didn't someone rescue them sooner?" is an important question, but possibly more useful questions are:
If no one asks for a rescue, should the NPS automatically rescue teams off El Cap after a certain amount of time? Two days? Three days?
How much responsibility should the NPS have for monitoring poeple in wilderness areas? How much self reliance should climbing teams have?
What could this team itself have done differently to survive the storm? What could they have done to insure the NPS would know when they needed help?
I don't ask these questions to start a flame war between opinions. The point is to try and answer Pete's original question: why didn't someone rescue them sooner?
I don't know the answer, but I do know it's not simple.
My apologies if I am slow to respond to this thread. My season is over for the year, and I will be gone from the valley until next spring. Of course I will do my best to answer what I can from elsewhere. Thanks to everyone for another amazing summer in the best place on earth.
Climb safe, climb clean, keep warm, and think positive.
-Link
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Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
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Oct 27, 2004 - 12:11pm PT
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If no one asks for a rescue, should the NPS automatically rescue teams off El Cap after a certain amount of time? Two days? Three days?
Every person has a right (IMHO) to go onto public lands and have adventure that may lead to their own death. The rescuers did a GREAT job during this episode but I do not think that there should be any type of automatic rescue policy. If a rescue is not requested there should not be one. EC is a wilderness, even though it is close to the road climbers need to accept that a rescue may not be available to them. Just like if they were doing a wall in the backcountry.
How much responsibility should the NPS have for monitoring people in wilderness areas? How much self reliance should climbing teams have?
The NPS should never be responsible for monitoring climbers on EC. Every climber venturing onto the big stone must take responsibility for themselves and any rescue they may need. Never expect to get rescued. As in this case the rescuers may not know you need help until its too late.
PTPT’s question, why didn't anyone go save them?!, is way out of line!
Pete you, who holds yourself out as a “big wall expert”, should know better than anyone that it is your responsibility and no else’s to get you ass safely back on the ground. Your comments are nothing more than Monday morning quarterbacking. Obviously the Japans party chose to climb EC in a particular style (as we all do) and in this case the risks unfortunately caught up with them.
EC is a dangerous place, it is not the holo-deck of the Star Ship Enterprise. You could get killed up there!
My condolences to the fallen climbers and their families and a big kudos to everyone else involved.
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Q
climber
Oakton, Virginia
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Oct 27, 2004 - 02:10pm PT
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I think Pete's question is completely valid. We must constantly question ourselves and those around us. If not, how will we ever learn from our mistakes and grow? Sure the SAR team did 99 things right, but if they did 1 thing wrong, shouldn't we figure out what that 1 thing was so next time it can be 100%?
Don't get me wrong, my gratitude for the SAR team runs deep. I spoke with many of them last week and they're dedicated, selfless individuals. I'm proud of their efforts and professionalism. However, we're dealing with people's lives here, so we can't let pride or other emotions cloud our examination of the facts. Slamming the door on dialogue doesn't accomplish anything.
"Should the NPS automatically rescue teams off El Cap after a certain amount of time? Two days? Three days?"
I'd say no; I talked with other climbers who were still fine after three days in the storm. If the weather had cleared, they could have kept climbing. Obviously not the case with Mariko and Ryoichi, but that just goes to show there's no hard and fast rule.
"How much responsibility should the NPS have for monitoring people in wilderness areas? How much self reliance should climbing teams have?"
I'd say in theory, the NPS should have zero responsibility, and climbers should assume they're on their own. But in light of recent events, there's situations where people are caught unprepared (for whatever reason), and in situations such as these, I think it would be better for everyone if NPS and SAR played a more active role. When a big storm blows in, catching many people off guard, would it be reasonable to have someone stand in the meadow all day, and monitor parties more closely? I don't know if this is feasible, I'm just asking. It seems like a little effort in this regard might save a lot more effort down the road.
Another suggestion is to come up with some kind of universal distress signal for parties that need help. Three whistle blasts? Wave your underwear over your head? Whatever, just make it universal, and make folks aware. That way, there's no confusion over whether someone needs a rescue or not.
Anyway, thanks again to YOSAR, and hopefully we can all learn something from this.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Oct 27, 2004 - 02:36pm PT
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"How much responsibility should the NPS have for monitoring people in wilderness areas?"
0%
"How much self reliance should climbing teams have?"
100%
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It's difficult to ask these questions and I'm sure it's difficult to be asked these questions. It certainaly depends on the intent. It's hard to read people (and their intent) from typed words. I don't feel that there is any intent in finger pointing at all. The intent here seems to be to learn from past events (selectively NOT using the word "mistakes"). I hope that is the case.
Enjoy your winter off, Link!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2004 - 04:38pm PT
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Q
Belive it or not shift rangers (Jack and Ed, sar cordinators for Valley), were constantly monitoring climbers during the storms.
Werner
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 27, 2004 - 05:21pm PT
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Look, I am not being critical of SAR or anyone else - obviously everybody tried their damnedest to save everyone! SAR's efforts receive my heartfelt applause, because they were willing to risk their necks to help save others. If you don't think this is honourable, then ask Tom Patey.
Besides, I am the last person who could or should say anything, because I myself walked beneath the base of El Cap on Sunday and Monday, and was completely unaware of the climbers on The Nose who subsequently perished. I accept my share of responsibility, too.
But they did perish, despite an active rescue, and despite constant monitoring according to Werner's note above.
In the aftermath of a tragedy such as this, it is important to examine the situation like an engineer, and take a problem-solving approach. This is far different than finger-pointing. If anyone is going to point a finger, you can point it my way first, cuz I'm as guilty as anyone.
What I want to know, and still do not understand, is how the hell this happened - that climbers in need were not rescued despite an ongoing rescue happening!
Here are a few possibilities:
was SAR unaware of them until it was too late?
did nobody notify SAR in time?
were they obscured from the sight of SAR by clouds or corners?
did SAR elect to wait until the heli could fly to the summit before commencing rescue efforts?
when did rescue efforts commence, and was it too late by then?
didn't their friends contact SAR?
if rescuers couldn't fly up there, then why didn't someone go up the East Ledges ropes or hike the Falls trail?
if SAR was unwilling or unable to get up there, why didn't anyone say anything to the dozens of climbers, like myself, who were wandering about the base of the crag or through the meadows to see if anyone else could help?
Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not saying this is anyone's fault, or that a mistake was made. I don't understand what the rescue protocol is, and how stuff happens. I still don't understand what happened, or didn't happen, here. I don't get the timeline.
These are tough questions to ask. Some might not like to see the answers. But the only way to solve the problem, and help save more lives next time, is to first diagnose the problem. Once diagnosed, then we can look at alternative solutions to the problem, and implement what needs to be done.
Perhaps nothing went wrong! Perhaps everything went according to plan, and nobody would have changed anything in hindsight. Perhaps the storm just came on too fast, and these guys died too quickly. Yet above it is reported they died Tuesday afternoon, but the storm began early Sunday morning.
I emphatically concur with the first two paragraphs of Q's post three boxes above.
And again, my condolences to the families.
And thanks again to SAR for all their efforts - while I have yet to be rescued, it's good to know that if I ever get in trouble up there, I won't be completely on my own.
Pete
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Lg
Trad climber
Sow City
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Oct 28, 2004 - 03:09am PT
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Certainly we should welcome question but you know, with this particular incident a little tact is a little more appreciated. Nobody is slamming the door on discussion, but some people like to pop off and it's annoying.
As one that does much of my climbing in the backcountry, I honestly never even consider SAR, you know, those three letters just don't make it on my list. Much because if anything bad enough did require their rescue, it would probably be too late anyway, maybe. I like to be self-sufficient, I don't like to rely on anyone but myself and my party...there are many factors I do consider: health/fitness; conditions; equipment; communications; technical rescue skills. Some of these require decisions or options that I will decide upon according to task. Not much changes when I climb in the front.
Some like to look at SAR and see what they can 'fix' but you know, they aren't the ones that are broke. If you're thinking SAR SAR SAR it's already too late, we need to think about the things "BEFORE" SAR. Sure, hopefully SAR (THanK U) will always be there, always be ready to go, and that probably won't change. And with all due respect to the Japanese party, what happened to them won't ever change either. Whether it was in their control or not, they had breakdowns with conditions, equipment and communications.
We're not always going to get the combination just right, we're not always going to save everyone that needs saving. We need to accept what happened more than we need to dissect, splay it open and pin it under a glass. Peace to our brother and sister.
Lg
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Southern Man
climber
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Oct 28, 2004 - 09:00am PT
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Just my two cents worth - but it strikes me that maybe a public forum isn't the best place to be discussing "events" and/or "mistakes" that may or may not have occurred in relation to people dying. I know, I know, we need to learn from events like this so, hopefully, they never happen again. But for a moment think about the risk (i.e. liability) a public official can bring upon themselves by posting on a public forum, the inside details of such a rescue/retrieval. Can anyone say L..A..W..S..U..I..T?? What we've learned so far is compelling but I think we are all fooling ourselves if we think were going to get a whole boat load of more info. or find out what happened on an hour-by-hour basis from the past Saturday thru. Wednesday. I'll even go so far as to say that the vast majority of us will NEVER really know "who did what and when"!! More than likely, a whole bunch of rumors will start to circle around filled with half-truths and lies. And I'll wager that some NPS Office of Counsel has already been in touch w/ Lober or Link to access the NPS's liability. Like I said, "just my two cents worth".
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HalHammer
Trad climber
CA
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Oct 28, 2004 - 03:06pm PT
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ENOUGH with the long winded, butt kissing formalities everyone is posting..Can't we say what we mean without being so extremely worried that someone may be offended? Did Sar mess up? How so? How could a rescue have been initiated sooner in this circumstance?
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Oct 28, 2004 - 03:39pm PT
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Here's what I mean...SAR didn't mess up. They did nothing to endager anyone. They only helped.
No one who was in a position to help but did not has any grounds for criticizing or questioning anyone but themselves.
If you feel that climbers should be responsible for the well being of other climbers, then start that cycle of responsibility with yourself. If you feel that the governement needs to regulate the safety of climbers by monitoring and preemptive rescue, then I guess I have no common ground with you to discuss the issue.
If we want to learn from this tragedy how to keep ourselves safer next time, we should look to the positives and negatives of the climbers' experiences rather than the SAR effort. When we climb, we should be responsible for ourselves, and then be only deeply grateful if and when we need help and someone puts themself in harms way to offer any amount of it.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 28, 2004 - 10:20pm PT
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I would like to offer up a comment about SAR. I run the SAR team for the NPS in Joshua Tree. We go by JOSAR, and we are an all volunteer team.
One thing you need to understand is that rule #1 of SAR is "Never become part of the rescue". While I wasn't there for the incidents, I can assure you that the NPS was not about to let their people risk their lives anymore than nessacary. SAR is plenty dangerous without all the nasty weather these folks had to deal with. If a SAR member gets injured during an incident, it just makes things all the more worse. You now have to draw resources away to deal with the "new" incident. Things can get real messy fast. The same applies if well intentioned members of the public try to get involved on their own.
Go easy on the "why didn't they do X" talk. It's hard on everybody when we lose someone. We had a very unpleasant search this summer for a 19 year old kid who got himself into trouble. We searched for 8 days only to have the kid show up dead. It had a real impact on allot of the team members from all the different teams and agencies involved.
Sometimes unpleasant and unpopular decisions have to be made. It's just the way it goes.
My hat is off to the NPS and the members of YOSAR for an impressive job under misearable conditions.
Robert Fonda
Joshua Tree CA
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 28, 2004 - 11:02pm PT
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Not that I know of. Maybe a long lost relative I don't know about!
Robert
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 28, 2004 - 11:36pm PT
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Sure, the email is fine. Send them along. Anythings possible. I'm assuming you're talking about the ranger Rosie down here in Josh. I'll tell her you said hello!
Thanks, who knows, maybe I'll find out about another side of my already dubious family ;)
Robert
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 29, 2004 - 05:46pm PT
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I agree with Melissa that SAR did a very good job; really as good as could possibly be expected, given the unusual combination of circumstances, and following their well tested protocols of not initiating a rescue unless it is clear that one is needed.
By "combination of circumstances", I mean:
unable to use helicopter due to severe weather
poor visibility during storm
multiday storm (climbers with good storm gear are wet)
weather forecast changed rapidly
team very high on wall and hard to see in corner system
partial language barrier (may have made it difficult for
team's friends on ground to contact SAR monitoring people)
Q asks some reasonable questions. As Werner pointed out, the climbers on El Cap were monitored. Of course, when visibility is minimal during a storm, monitoring will not be possible. Q asked what signal is used to indicate a rescue is needed. The way I've observed it in the past is that the SAR monitoring person uses a bullhorn to ask the party if they need a rescue. He/she asks them to move their haulbag to indicate "Yes" in response to a question or two. So communication is possible if there is sufficient visibility (there was no visibility during the critical part of this storm, as I understand it). For example, one November I was climbing the East Buttress of El Cap, and late in the day I heard John Dill on the bullhorn: "Party on Zodiac, there is a winter storm warning for the next 3 days. Move your haulbag if you can hear me."
Pete asked several questions, but most of them can be answered by referring to previous posts on this and related threads. Still, I might as well summarize, in case other people are unable to digest all the posts.
>was SAR unaware of them until it was too late?
Yes.
>did nobody notify SAR in time?
Obviously not, since "in time" implies time to make a successful rescue. The problem here is that during the window in which SAR could have put people on top (before Saturday night), no rescue was yet needed. After Saturday night, people still did not know if a rescue was needed, because visibility was bad.
Probably the only chain of events which could have saved the people on the Nose would be if (1) they were in radio contact with their friends on the ground, (2) they asked for a rescue on Sunday, and (3) their friends on the ground communicated this to SAR.
>were they obscured from the sight of SAR by clouds or corners?
Yes.
>did SAR elect to wait until the heli could fly to the summit before commencing rescue efforts?
No. The ground team started Tuesday at 4am (in the continuing snowstorm), as Werner posted.
>when did rescue efforts commence, and was it too late by then?
Tuesday 4am. Yes, it was too late for the Nose people. Not too late for the others on El Cap.
>didn't their friends contact SAR?
I don't know, but apparently not, or not with sufficient lead time.
>if rescuers couldn't fly up there, then why didn't someone go up the East Ledges ropes or hike the Falls trail?
The ground team hiked in on the Tamarack Flat trail. The East Ledge ropes are unusable in a storm (think about it - snow and flowing water on the slick slabs, the 1200' ropes would have to be hauled, etc. - would be ridiculous), and the Falls Trail is not as good as Tamarack Flat (extra elevation gain on Falls Trail).
>if SAR was unwilling or unable to get up there, why didn't anyone say anything to the dozens of climbers, like myself, who were wandering about the base of the crag or through the meadows to see if anyone else could help?
SAR is certainly willing and able. They just did not know that they were needed (until it was too late to save the Nose party). I believe people were recruited as load carriers.
As others have implied, it might have been possible to save the Nose climbers, if there was a "premptive rescue", i.e. if a rescue was initiated before it was clear that it would be needed. But as Robert Fonda pointed out, this is against SAR policy for good reason, because it puts rescuers at risk, when there are no "definite" results to be gained (only "probable" or "possible" results).
For example, SAR member Jack Dorn died when he walked off the edge of the Falls Trail during a night rescue. And Jason the Navy SAR person on the Braille Book shorthaul rescue a few years back was badly injured when he was smashed into a tree (the victim died at that point); even worse, the pilot attempted to jettison Jason and the victim when his instrument panel indicated power loss, but the safety rope prevented the jettison; the entire helicopter could have gone down).
Even if a team (of sufficient size, with the necessary gear) was put on top in advance, if they did not know the Nose climbers needed a rescue, they would not have been able to help. SAR could consider having a cache of rescue gear (such as a 1200' rope, edge rollers, etc.) in place on top of El Cap, but you still have to get a team up there, and they have to know where on El Cap a rescue is needed. So having a cache might not be very helpful. It might speed up a ground party some, though. I'd be willing to bet that a rescue cache has been considered by SAR already, and not pursued for the reasons above and for better reasons.
To solve the visibility problem, in theory you could send someone down on a 1200' rope to Camp 6 to check on people, assuming we know someone is in that vicinity. Again, it is rather high risk, for only "potential" results.
Bottom line: it was an unusually bad storm and combination of bad conditions. Probably we will not see anything similar for another 20 years or so. If SAR puts a team up on top in advance of every March, April, October and November storm, when climbers are visible on El Cap, most of the time they will not be needed. And some SAR lives could be lost in the process of doing all those trips.
So I think that we have to be willing to accept that sometimes people are going to die on El Cap in a bad storm, because we could lose even more people trying to avoid this.
Camp 6 on the Nose is a bad place to be in a storm. This is not the first death to occur there (David Kays, April 1980, see http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/elcapd.txt ). There have also been several close calls there, when multiple parties were saved by SAR. I would not want to be there after a wet night, with snow coming down. The theoretical "rule of thumb" I have in mind for self rescue is that if you spend one wet night (i.e. your sleeping bag is wet), then you go down the next morning unless you know for sure you can top out. That is, you avoid at all costs a second wet night. But this is theoretical; I haven't actually been in this situation on a wall. And what would you do if your partner is partially incapacitated and might not be able to rappel safely? Or what if the rappels are complicated or conditions bad enough that it might take more than one day to get down? It might be safer to wait for the storm to clear, or to wait for a rescue in some cases.
Clint Cummins
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jjslz
Trad climber
San Jose Ca
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Oct 30, 2004 - 02:09am PT
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The bottom line is this: the only ones responsible for these two deaths are the climbers themselves. They just had to do stay alive long enough for someone to get to them. Appropriate clothing, synthetic sleeping bags and a bivy sack would have done it.
But for the grace of God go I, but don't blame it on anyone but those responsible. RIP.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 30, 2004 - 10:00am PT
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Link and Werner,
Trust me I meant no disrespect to you or SAR by my earlier question. I believ Pete´s question was valid. I am traveling now, and don´t have time to respond to all your good questions, although I believe they avoid the context this particular circumstance.
1. You guys knew the strength of that storm coming in.
2. You guys know the upper Nose is a deadly location on El Cap.
3. You guys had reason to believe there were climbers up there (I know this because I told Lober I saw them).
So the bottom line is...why did it take until Tuesday afternoon to contact them and Wednesday to reach them after their cries for help? Monday afternoon was totaly calm in the Meadow with prefect visibility (I was there). Why was no effort being made at that time? Timeline here...the storm broke Sat night, so by Monday afternoon they had allready been in a waterfall for two days. How much more suffering does one need to endure before YOSAR decides to help?
These big storms are what you guys are there for, they are what you train for and are compensated for... This was the first one of the season. Why was it three days into it before any action was taken?
I understand that you are asking yourselves the same questions. As many are, even my parents asked me the same question.
I don´t believe these are necesarily questions for Link or Werner who merely take orders and do their best to do their jobs well. I believe they are for the primary decision maker who is ultamitely accountable for the SAR teams actions.
Sorry to be the critic here, but there was one team up on El Cap up there who needed help urgently yet the respones time was obviously not adequate. Questions need to be asked.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 30, 2004 - 11:21am PT
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I support Link and Werner 100% on this one. Even on Tuesday they had to hike 11 miles through 3 feet of snow to reach the summit. I can't even imagine setting up in those conditions and rapping into the void to save folks.
I think these SAR folks are heros that are giving us far more than we are owed. Even if they do make a mistake once in awhile and somebody dies, I don't blame them and believe they shouldn't be liable.
Climbing is dangerous, Go up El Cap without the proper gear, later in the season, and take 6 days to get to Camp 6, you are taking a risk. Sometime you lose those risks. It's not the NPS job to preemptively rescue people or face ultra-hazards because we do a risky sport and sometimes go without the gear we need.
and if climbers ever managed to make such a stink about rescue liability that NPS was pressured to stick their necks out even further, you can bet that climbers would face restrictions and heavy fines in an attempt to mitigate those liabilities. (Must have insurance, must carry certain gear, must have certain training/experience, can't go except in certain seasons) Don't laugh, just anybody can't just hang glide Glacier Point anytime.
Great Job Sar Dudes. Thanks, thanks, and thanks
Karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 30, 2004 - 11:44pm PT
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Lambone wrote:
>... Monday afternoon was totaly calm in the Meadow with prefect visibility (I was there). Why was no effort being made at that time? Timeline here...the storm broke Sat night, so by Monday afternoon they had allready been in a waterfall for two days.
I see now that my post was not accurate regarding the visiblity. I was drawing some conclusions from Tom Thompson's post (Getting Plucked off El Cap). He described 2 days of continuous rain, then 2 days of continuous snow. But given that Tom was bivvied one pitch below Thanksgiving on Never Never Land, that spot is a big drainage for El Cap, so probably they were experiencing a lot of runoff on Monday, rather than rains which I assumed made visibility bad.
[edit 11/02: the above is not really right, either. I don't know if Never Never Land 1 pitch below Thanksgiving is a big drainage path; I don't think it is. I was thinking instead of Dihedral/Horse Chute 1 pitch below Thanksgiving; that is definitely a drainage path. I was there a couple of years ago when the clouds were gathering and I did not want to be there, jumaring with a broken finger.... Maybe a bit too traumatic to think clearly anymore? :-) ]
I don't know the answers on the timing of when the rescue was started. But I think if the Nose party was not yelling for a rescue on Monday, then you do not initiate one. It seems likely that the continuous snow took people by surprise (both the climbers and SAR).
In hindsight, sure, it would have been nice to have a SAR team on top on Monday. But it would definitely be in the "preemptive rescue" mode. On Monday, if snow was definitely forecast for Tuesday, it might have been helpful to communicate that to the parties on El Cap. I don't know what the forecast was, or what communications (if any) took place. Even if snow was not forecast, parties on El Cap should know that snow is possible (and could delay a rescue) and if their shelter is not good enough to handle snow, they should try to get down (i.e. on Sunday or Monday).
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zarithzamarialionza
Trad climber
caracas.D.F
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Bueno-Bueno-Bueno...i´m not even in the States now and,i probably have no idea of anything that hapened there...but one thing i know:"never underestimate the power of nature"-the fact that someone is from SAR or Rescue does not mean they are super heroes...besides if a climber decides to go on el cap is mostly under their own risk and.they have to make "a plan" considering even death...I will never understand why humans want to be in control of everything!!....good for those who worked on the rescue,good for those who were saved and God blessed those who had to go..
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CaryClimber
Trad climber
Cary, NC
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I do not think this public forum thread is the best place for many of the comments about the rescues in Yosemite and the deaths of 2 climbers. I have tremendous respect for the skills and experience of the climbers in this forum that have asked the questions and posted the comments. However I do not think the cost is worth the gain.
I have not done wilderness SARS work and I am relative “newbie” when it comes to rock climbing. I am a volunteer EMT with a squad that runs more than 6,000 calls a year. It is common for us to have patients die while we are treating them. There is a profound psychological impact of a death on a rescue worker or volunteer.
I would suggest that in the future someone who wants to comment on a rescue first contact the SAR team involved. Ask if you can contribute to the team’s process for reviewing a rescue and capturing the lessons learned. You can contribute your expertise in a more private, constructive way.
For anyone involved in the rescues, please let me know if you would like any information on handling the psychological impact of a death. I will see be glad to see what information my squad has available. My email address is DannyMcCracken@Earthlink.net
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