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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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True - my scenario got away with me as I began hunting and pecking. That does tend to happen with me. But I am not the sort who goes sorting through newsclips to get the goods, and others here do a fine job if it, so I leave it to them.
As for cops not using the databases....Are you JOKING????
hahahah...oh, that's rich.
And yes, I have spoken with cops. They're, oftentimes, just people. Just like you and me. You know, my mom once said "Eye doctors can't see. Ear doctors can't hear. And psychiatric dotors are crazy." She was a nurse, and I guess that one was an insider's perspective. Alas, it holds true - people tend to follow things that are pertinent to their life experiences.
I have met many cops. And many of those cops were petty criminals as teens.
But, what do I know.....
On a more serious note - the thing that actually bothers me about the OP topic, is that it *seems* someone is attempting to abscond with our country. A lot of people say that's crazy, but..... Well, I'd like nothing better than to see the 2008 prez election bring someone new in and have all this talk fizzle out. To realize one day, a few years down the line, that this was all just a bad dream. Happy to be called paranoid in the Land of the Free.
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Pennsylenvy
Social climber
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My brother told me something to the effect that Lockhead Martin recieves a percentage of the revenue of the tickets from those cameras at intersections. Anybody known the truth of the matter? If this is true we are already deeper than we may think. Offf the couch .....why are you so defensive about this technology/sacrifice of our privacy? Are you in criminal justice?
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Off the Couch
Trad climber
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No, Penn, not in criminal justice.
I just tire of hearing the same old paranoid liberal ramblings, over and over.
Of course cops are human, with all our frailties. And of course there will be those who are only seperated from ciminality by the thin blue line.
But, I have yet to hear any concrete examples from anyone of cops accessing personal info for nefarious purposes.
And yes, I too have heard that the red light camera contractors had a stake in the enforcement funds. That's why they shortened duration of the yellow lights - to catch more drivers running reds lights! Now THAT is pure corporate evil.
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jstan
climber
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At various times I have seen reports:
1. Some cars already have transmitting GPS. I would guess LOJACK has/will go in this direction.
2. When driving while using a cell phone the phone company can track you by looking at changes in the tower servicing the link.
3. Some cars contain the equivalent of the black box carried on airliners and hold evidence that can be introduced in court.
Fifteen years ago the company where I worked developed an infrared system that smog tested all the cars as they drove by on the freeway. They also were able to read license plates. At the time the political will to use the capability was not there, so nothing came of it. Therein lies the answer to this thread's question.
But longer term, as population climbs and the mean physical separation between people decreases, should we not expect "privacy" to be an evolving concept? Really? We may not like where we are going, but afterall, we are the ones at fault.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2007 - 01:24pm PT
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there is something inherently problematic with analyzing privacy as it relates to the exercise of power.
power can be exercised in a way that is both intentional and non-subjective.
meaning that power is exercised to do some thing. but no one individual is responsible.
thus an ever creeping 'we do it to ourselves' becomes palpable as we think of privacy as it relates to who we are, what we do, essentially our own identities construct our sense of what is private and what is public but in a way that we exercise power thru ourselves, self defining in a way, that is intended to do something, e.g. maybe an efficiency gain, but also, no one individual is responsible for it's net effect; that is, the degradration of a concept of the private life (and I would argue private even in a public space since historically we have had the anonymity of the crowd).
thots in particular on this aspect of power?
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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3. Some cars contain the equivalent of the black box carried on airliners and hold evidence that can be introduced in court
Yup! That's what nailed the cops driving Gov. Corzine. 91 mph. Using their flashing lights, just to transport a governor back to talk to the nappy headed ho guy.
Here is what strikes me about this thread. Most of the posters seem to want to find this (or other topics) good or bad - black or white.
Even when I attempted to elicit a value measurement, nobody could (or would) do it. Is the price of the rope you bought good or bad? Is the price of your gasoline good or bad? (Hint, if you do not know the answer, you need to understand the concept of free markets - which is not analogous to free beer.)
Risk managers in IT seem to think like this too. If we do X, something bad could happen. Duh. Glad they don't control my car keys. I would have to leave the car in the garage, because I could get in an accident and get killed.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2007 - 10:22pm PT
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Trad, i get your point.
But let me sorta pose another thought experiment...
what if we could only every discuss things in shades of gray? could you ever have a winning argument over other shades of gray? Or does it take the finality of a black or white statement to finally execute on a particular normative idea or action?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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This privacy issue seems like a slippery slope issue. While allowing additional information to be captured about it has the benefit of preventing certain thefts and crimes, it is a step down a road that could lead to excess government control of the population.
That's an unacceptable risk in my mind as the past 7 years have demonstrated an increasing tendency for the government to punish dissent and grab increased powers to detain, imprison and abuse people without due process or fair due process.
Give me increased risk of having my car stolen or being hit by a speeder than take a step down a road where big brother can know, judge and control my life.
It's not just me. Many are speculating that our president will potentially avoid allowing the 2008 election. I've never seen anything like that before. It's stunning that Bush and Cheney claim they can prevent the justice department from prosecuting any of the administration. That's a major, major power grab.
Are there conservatives left that fear the power of big government or is that only a fear of higher taxes when Democrats are in charge?
peace
Karl
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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what if we could only every discuss things in shades of gray?
could you ever have a winning argument over other shades of gray?
Yes.
Or does it take the finality of a black or white statement to
finally execute on a particular normative idea or action?
No, except if you mean by normative that you convert measurements
into boolean statements, in which case you arrive at a tautology,
which is not useful for analytical purposes.
The answers to your question are obvious to me. I will leave it
to you to find examples.
Hint: Just think of some quantity that is measured that can have
a continuum of values at least over some range. The quantity that
you choose could support a life or death decision. Then take that
quantity and give it only two values instead of a continuum of
values. See how that alters the ability to support normative
action.
EDIT. BTW MC and crotch, please edit your links into embedded
links, (or put a space in the middle). Click Help below the edit window if you do not know how.
Using long links makes it very hard to read since ST does not
wrap them. To make this readable I inject line feeds into the
text. Yuck!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/08/01/gps.taxi.strike.ap/index.html
..NEW YORK (AP) -- A group representing thousands of taxi drivers said last week it will idle cabs in September if the city goes ahead with a plan to require installation of GPS tracking systems.
Starting October 1, as the city's 13,000 taxis come up for inspections they must have the GPS equipment along with touch-screen monitors that will let passengers pay by credit card, check on news stories and look up restaurant and entertainment information.
If the Taxi & Limousine Commission abandons the GPS part of the plan, "then there's room to sit down and talk," said Bhairavi Desai, executive director of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance, which counts more than 8,400 members.
But if the plan moves forward, she said, the group will specify the date, duration and other details of the potential work stoppage next month.
The Taxi Workers Alliance -- an advocacy group rather than a labor union -- said GPS devices would be an invasion of drivers' privacy because they could track cabs' movements......."
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2007 - 12:23am PT
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Trad, heh, very interesting that you mention this...
" tautology,
which is not useful for analytical purposes."
i.e. something self defining
very useful for analytical purposes because it shows that if you turn to a tautology for the normative value as part of one's argument, then it really is taking a stand to show the argument.
black or white... hrm
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captain chaos
climber
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The plans the US gov. and their wealthy friends from around the world have in mind for their slaves (all normal citizens in general) is shocking to say the least... How far they will get before the slaves stand up against them is another thing all together, but it is what will be required to keep our freedom and privacy rights. The thing most people don't realize is that they never abolished slavery, they just made everyone a slave via a fraudulent and illegal tax system... and now their planning to monitor everyone's ass with a chip to make sure no one except themselves can get away from the system... its the typical do as we say, not as we do gang- its happening and its coming everyone's way sooner then you think.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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..... I have dial up and can't watch videos. Plus, I have about 2 more minutes online before the weekend hits(yeah!).
But if there is a written transcript, or info about the video Chaos posted - please advise. I'd like to read.
I think what would be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and gets us outraged enough to resist pjhysically, would be the disallowing of the 2008 elections, which some people do fear is in the plans.
Of course, there's a long time between now and then, and what clampdowns will be in place by 11/08? (That immigration "control" bill that didn't go through listed 10/08/08 as the "big day" to have new laws in place.....)
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Who here has had a chip implanted in them?
So what's our end game for all this? Pound a twelve pack of Coors Light, get on your dirtbike, and ride forever into the hills?
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captain chaos
climber
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You can write your congressman asking for information on these things (like the Federal ID card everyone will be required to have come March 2008) and try to stop it via letting others know what's coming their way where hopefully some will join in and fight to keep your freedom and privacy rights from being stolen from you, or you can simply do what most will do and that's bend over and let the US gov. have their way with you- Do know that several states and their congressmen are against the federal ID program and these other programs they have in the works to take our constitutional rights away from us, but their going to need everyone's help to keep it from happening- chaos
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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It's funny to me that Slick Will wanted "multi-point tapping" of terror suspects but that chit got taken out of his terror bill (Repubs concerned about civil liberties...so they said)...
FYI-a lot of that immigration stuff is being "writ" into other bills...
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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How can Libs point the finger a Neo-Cons and say things like, you idiots are so willing to give up your rights and freedoms just to feel safe, yet the same Libs will take away our right to bare arms.
I agree this is scary stuff and a bad direction to be heading.
If everyone would exercise our first amendment right do you think the government would be so quick to pinch off our liberties?
I think both political parties feel they as leaders are better suited to make the important decisions in our life's and they both feel the the "ends justifies the means".
Libs want to disarm us and Neo-Cons want to make sure that they are so supremely powerful that our small arms won't matter.
I'd rather be able to put up a small fight than not at all.
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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A.C. Yeah, more and more repubicans will start going that way as well I'm sure, all under the disguise of safety for the people.
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captain chaos
climber
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Below is an informative source for the Real ID card. There are groups out there which are fighting it along with several states, at the bottom of the article there are many articles/links in concern to this issue and others.
http://www.epic.org:80/privacy/id_cards/
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