Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 62 of total 62 in this topic |
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 30, 2007 - 05:58pm PT
|
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OH_PLATE_HUNTER_OHOL-?SITE=WBNSTV&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
The Mobile Plate Hunter 900 - two cameras mounted atop a cruiser - can read up to 900 license plates an hour on vehicles driving at highway speeds.
Some plates are difficult for the $20,000 machine to read because of awkward angles and other reasons, but it charts an estimated 85 to 90 percent of the plates that pass its radar. The numbers are matched with a computerized list from the National Crime Information Center.
"It's unreal," Springdale Police Chief Mike Laage said. "It's the best technology out there."
The State Highway Patrol has been using the plate hunter in six spots along the Ohio Turnpike, but Springdale police are the first to use it on regular patrols.
Since the patrol began using the scanners in 2004, it has recovered 95 stolen cars - valued at $740,000 - and made 111 arrests, said patrol spokesman Lt. Shawn Davis. The plate hunter has made roads safer, he said.
The scanner's gaze is too wide and it's an infringement against the innocent drivers whose plates get captured, said Jeff Gamso, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio.
Using the plate hunter to scan all license plates is a civil rights violation and could lead to government abuse of the information, Gamso said.
"Is the marginal benefit likely outweighing the danger of increased surveillance of everything we do?"
Laage finds nothing wrong with casting the wide net.
"Our citizens want us to be able to catch the criminal. We're not stopping individuals at random or for no cause," he said.
Since the department began using the plate scanner in June, routine patrols have read more than 86,000 plates. Each morning, Springdale Lt. Bill Fields downloads 380,000 of the most recent plates of cars entered into the information's center's system.
The plates could belong to stolen cars or be owned by people with outstanding felony warrants. The first arrest that resulted from the program was a man wanted on a burglary charge. The department soon hopes to download the plate numbers of people wanted for misdemeanors, Fields said.
Every plate being scanned won't be tossed away but stored for future use. Once a warrant is issued on a plate, officers can pull up the previously scanned data, using coordinates on a map to pinpoint the exact location and time of the car when it was identified.
"We're equipping our officers to do the best job possible," Laage said. "The ACLU can claim an issue here, but we rely on court decisions in regards to what's legal and what's not legal, not the ACLU."
Information from: The Cincinnati Enquirer, http://www.enquirer.com
|
|
GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 06:03pm PT
|
I agree, it would be no different than if an officer was keeping an 'eye out' for a stolen plate. The good definitely outweighs the bad. The paperwork involved to catalog each and every plate and write up for late registration, improper display or hillary '08 bumper stickers would be too much logistics :D
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 06:03pm PT
|
What's the difference between a camera doing it and adding a thousand cops to do the same task?
|
|
Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 06:16pm PT
|
That turns my stomach.
The reality is that they are only taking plain sight pictures, so it will be hard to claim any sort of privacy issues with the actual taking of pictures.
Maintaining a database of locations of where known innocent people's cars are located is another story. I don't know what specifically would make this illegal, but it really reaks of a police state.
Someone will point out that our addresses and such are a matter of public record, but it has other implications. Now authorities will know where you park, say at a friends house. How would you react if you got searched because while visiting a bud you accidentally parked in front of a pedophiles house, or in front of a soon to be discovered meth lab? Very likely to occur in this sort of scenario.
Or how about this one, allowing a cop to find out you were at a recent anti-Bush rally when he pulled you over for minor speeding? Many logical directions for this to go are very unsavory.
It brings us one step closer to having bar codes put on our foreheads to be able to track all citizens at all times.
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 06:42pm PT
|
...I was just going to post about having your whereabouts able to be tracked and see that the last few posts have addressed it well enough.
Yeah....this is bad.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 06:53pm PT
|
Plus, it makes a grand opportunity for real crooks, with clean titles, to do some crimes while the cops are analysing nonsense!
|
|
rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 06:57pm PT
|
The difference between police fighting crime and oppression is the number of police officers. There is little else that differentiates being oppressed from being protected. If there were more cops, or more cameras, the police would have the resources to investigate people who are generally more law abiding then those they now pursue. Eventually, they would be able to give a citation for every single offense and since I've broken the law every day of my life (since I've been driving), I'm bound to end up in jail with the rest of you.
And if they run out of people to arrest for obvious reasons and still have enormous resources, they will then suggest that there is no reason not to put those resources to good use and start tracking people who "might" be "possibly" involved in a crime because of some previous infraction.
Imaging the public outcry if there were 1000 police cars along a 500 mile drive? I'd get at least a little stressed that I would get ticketed for the most minor of offenses since there would be little else for the police to do. IN fact, the large quantity of officers would drastically increase my chances of coming across a cop who just happen to dislike the color of my car or the color of my skin.
Yep. No reason not to frown upon a police-state and oppressive government.
Dave
|
|
marky
climber
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 07:09pm PT
|
You're either a cop or a little person.
|
|
G_Gnome
Sport climber
Everywhere, man...
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 07:16pm PT
|
How long before that system starts issuing automatic tickets for speeding home from the sex shop?
|
|
bler
Boulder climber
Alamo, CA
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 08:02pm PT
|
so this means I get to follow a cop around all day videotaping him?
yes, things displayed in public are public right..
but if I did that (followed a cop with a camera) that would be illgeal..
fact : when the laws were created, they did not take into account a machine performing the same tasks as say 1000 cops.
yes, they 'could' hire a million cops, but its not financially able to, but when they spend $1k on a machine that does what is not humanly possible and a clear viloation of what is implied in the law is seems very immoral.
|
|
bler
Boulder climber
Alamo, CA
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 08:10pm PT
|
rector:
good point, look at Walnut Creek for example..
they have no crime, yet the city rakes in more then $1M in traffic, parking and minor offences a month and have cops patroling every corner for these 'violations'
i personally have seen a cop there line up 10 kids and handcuff them for j-walking just so he could write up the tickets.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 08:14pm PT
|
It's really all your faults.
You are all crooks at heart.
You blame everything outside of yourselves.
You all created this world we live in.
Yep all crooks .......
|
|
TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 08:23pm PT
|
Just suppose...
That privacy laws were such that the videos were legal for private firms. There were 3 large firms who each installed over 100,000 of these cameras and the computer equipment necessary to track the plates and retain the history for one year. Assume that each of the firms could offer you a 30% chance of recovery of your stolen vehicle (gold service) if you had previously filed your license plate number with them (If you didn't, they were not allowed to record its location, ever.) Further that your insurance would insure 100% of your vehicle's market value, if it was located by any private service. And the insurance company gave you a 5% discount on your insurance premium.
Further, if you filed with a service, you could also for an extra charge get a report for the previous 3 months of any location in which it had observed your vehicle (platinum service).
What price, if any, would you pay for the gold or platinum service?
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2007 - 08:59pm PT
|
Trad, superb example of market forces pushing, apparently inexorably, toward a dataveillance society that we ourselves exercise power against ourselves.
Insurance as an arm of a well disciplined society.
fascinating examples, IMO.
Jaybro was right too when he said "Plus, it makes a grand opportunity for real crooks, with clean titles, to do some crimes while the cops are analysing nonsense!"
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 09:34pm PT
|
It's all part of a slippery slope. If we let em have this one, why not put a gps and chip in every car? That way every trip over the speed limit and over the double yellow line would be noted? You just pay your (reduced) fines at the end of each month? Probably save lives eh?
If we buy that, how about a chip in you? Track you wherever you go. Easy to narrow down who was at a crime scene that way. Saves lives, can't complain about that.
How about we all take a (improved) lie detector test every 3 years and just have to confess to all the laws we broke and submit our hair for any drugs we took. Nip a lot of problems in the bud that way!
Better yet, how about we have a morality police to make sure women dress modestly and chop off the hands of thieves? Some countries have keep folks in line very strictly like that.
Freedom before safety. Don't let technology become our prison warden
Peace
Karl
|
|
ADK
climber
truckee
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 10:04pm PT
|
This country is safe enough. This is about $$$.
|
|
Off the Couch
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 11:19pm PT
|
Responding to the poster who worried about the police being distracted from real criminals while their analysing meaningless data: There is no analysation, except by the computer.
These things work. I'm not sure what each state plans to do with the data, but I know that article in the original post doesn't clarify this point. Everyone take a deep breath - if you're not a liberal, and not doing anything wrong (sex shops are legal, after all) then you have nothing to worry about. Just kidding, but c'mon.
The authorities are already collecting data from toll transponders - that little unit in your windshield that automatically deducts your tolls on toll roads or bridges. You are being tracked at every step, although the authorities claim they scramble the data so that all they know is a vehicle is traveling at a certain speed on a certain stretch of roadway. But what if OJ Simpson had such a transponder -- would they have used it to track him on his slow speed chase?
I once received a 'toll violation' notice because I was driving a rental car that was not on my electronic toll road account. When I called the service to rectify the supposed violation, the clerk, while reviewing my account activity, noticed that "you were driving 53 MPH on the approach to the toll plaza - pretty fast!"
I was stunned, and shot back a lame "Oh really, is that over the limit?"
They're already watching.
A friend lived in Geneva Switzerland for a few years. She was amazed to learn that the Swiss enjoy having a phone-book like publication listing the owners' name and address for every license plate. After a one-night-stand guy left her place, the neighbor came over and asked questions about "Joe Swissguy, from Swisswatch Strasse in South Geneva." Freaky stuff.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2007 - 11:53pm PT
|
OTC, if I may, just because it's already happening doesn't mean we have to continue down the same path.
I have a theory that the problem with our society is that we haven't sanctioned officially the right to privacy. Penumbras just aren't covering what should otherwise be a full fledged balancing act the court has to make rather than merely saying that if it is in the public view, there is no right to privacy.
There is a theory that is floated around these days that privacy isn't some theoretical signifier, but instead really should be grounded in history and praxis along the lines of this: that one not ought to be judged outside of the context.
has anyone heard this theory before, and what do you make of it?
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 12:13am PT
|
I'll just stick to polarized clear film over both plates, thank you.
edit: you have two choices: go along with the "system", OR figure out how to work around it--I usually choose the latter, but that's the wild west in me.
|
|
Off the Couch
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 12:27am PT
|
Mungeclimber, the right to privacy DOES exist, and courts have found it is contained within the constitution.
It is at the intersection of two things that collisions occur. In this case, it's the right to privacy (although you're not really doing anything private while driving along a public roadway) versus the need for public safety and security through law enforcement activities.
If this thread were on a discussion board frequented by millionaires, and not dirtbags, the response would be much more enthusiastic. "yes, please, get us back our expensive stolen cars!"
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 12:39am PT
|
"If this thread were on a discussion board frequented by millionaires, and not dirtbags, the response would be much more enthusiastic. "yes, please, get us back our expensive stolen cars!""
The people with real money have their own privacy issues with the Government. What if the Government took the ability to hide and protect money in tax havens, off-shore trusts and other tax and liabilty dodges? Funny how guys like OJ Simpson and Ken Lay are instantly broke when folks try to sue them.
Why do all these intrusive security nets seem aimed at the little guy doing the little crime while Cheney can form an offshore corporation offshoot of Haliburton just to do business with Iran against US sanctions and nobody (except pinkos) says boo?
Peace
Karl
|
|
Off the Couch
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 12:42am PT
|
"The cars are insured, and nobody gives a sh#t."
A gross simplification, I think. I DO give a sh#t about my car. And of course, insurers themselves give a sh#t.
And you should give a sh#t, because lower theft rates means lower insurance rates.
AC, you see that right?
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2007 - 02:17am PT
|
OTC (respecting privacy by not using real names :),
you see what I'm getting at, with perfect vision. Yes, the courts have found a right to privacy rooted in the Constitution, yet we still don't have an express right to privacy in the Constituion. There is something about expressing the right that gives it substance and meaning. Even a strict textual approach can't obviate the precedent of an Amendment to the Constitution.
|
|
Off the Couch
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 02:26am PT
|
I'm sure an outraged and terrified citizentry foretold blood in the streets when the police were finally armed with those repeater guns that fire many bullets.
And even more cautious when the police finally got to use horseless carriages.
We will survive this too. Besides, if you're not running away from the sex shop, you have nothing to worry about.
j: )
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 02:34am PT
|
Bler, maybe that's what keeps Walnut Creek the orderly city that it is, instead of the dripping pool of vice, disease and general unpleasantness that makes regular people avoid Alamo and even worse, it's shameful, under sister city, Danville. We won't even cosider, Blackhawk, har!
|
|
GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 02:44am PT
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 08:41am PT
|
God bless the librarians.....
Remember how, when the first wave of these recent civil rights restrictions was enacted, they took a stand and said "This isn't right!"?
The other day I saw this sticker attached up high on a lampost in front of my building. I thought "I WANT that!" but my higher thinking told me to leave it for the masses.... Half and hour later I went out for an errand, looked up, and it had been swiped.
Now this thread made me think of that sticker, and off I went, hoping to find it... With a little work, I succeeded! Surprise, surprise.... Andre the Giant! Here's the link:
http://www.obeygiant.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=50
|
|
Off the Couch
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 09:42am PT
|
"these recent civil rights restrictions"
We are not talking about any restrictions on civil liberties. No one is being hindered from moving about, and no one's whereabouts is being tracked. Even if the police used this system to show that a certain car was in a certain place at a certain time, they still can't prove that YOU were driving it.
You all should be much more concerned about your medical records being digitized. That is going to lead to a breach of your civil liberties way before this license plate thing does.
Everyone, please, stay calm!
Jen
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 10:54am PT
|
^ Do Not Listen!
This has been a public service announcement.
Who are you, Jen, to suggest with what we should, or should not, be concerned with? What are your credentials?
Mind yer own biz!!!(I mean that in the nicest way.)
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 11:29am PT
|
"The right to privacy is only surrendered upon criminal conviction. "
People shouldn't give up this right in full just because of a "criminal conviction" Those would be easy enough to create.
Do you think the GOP would like to revoke privacy and voting rights for everybody caught with a joint? You know them dopers corrupt our kids and no punishment is too strong. Nobody ever smoked a Doobie and said "wow man, those Republicans have been right about social issues all along!" Well, few anyway.
it would be like the current evil that the pres can call a citizen an enemy combatant and put em away without due process. He's only used it on citizens a few times but if there was a rebellion (say over a cancelled election) it would be everywhere
Peace
Karl
|
|
Off the Couch
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 03:17pm PT
|
An explicit right to privacy would be nice.
Any civics/legislative geniuses here? What majority would it take to amend our constitution? Who do you suppose would fund the opposition?
Happiegirl, I work with some of these issues so I am familiar with the concepts at play. Worst-case scenario: Barney Fife has his license plate reader results subpoenaed or seized by the feds, who are on some witch hunt. THEN the search results ARE going to be used for a purpose that makes me uncomfortable and that was not intended when this program started.
Best case scenario: you get your stolen car back. I still do not buy the argument that "it's all just insurance - who cares?" This license plate system is used at our border to combat human trafficking (since coyotes often use stolen vehicles). It's also used at other hot spots for criminal activity, where idiots converge. I recall a story about cops running the plates at a parole office and finding two stolen cars being driven by parolees.
Someone care to articulate what YOU think the evils are, aside from an amorphous complaint about lost civil liberties and big brother govt? BTW, that face recognition software has been in use in Europe for years. Anyone know how many cameras are monitoring public spaces in the UK?
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 03:46pm PT
|
I was in England last November. Everywhere in public places - airports, train stations, and so on - you see signs warning you the area may be under CCTV surveillance. It seems to be the compromise they've reached between the law & order watch everybody gang, and the civil liberties gang.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2007 - 05:10pm PT
|
yes, exactly, who would fund the opposition?...
it's not at all clear who would be pro Constitutional Amendment and who would be con-Con.
Neo Con - We don't need any privacy rights for Planned Parenthood....
Neo Con - We need greater financial privacy laws to prevent identity theft.
Lib - we don't need privacy rights for people to hide behind and not pay their taxes.
Lib - we need greater privacy rights to keep the feds out of my state sanctioned medicinal marijuana
thots?
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 05:44pm PT
|
What arguments can be made against?
Aside from ones others can surely name, I could suggest a simple(okay...I got carried away....) scenario that makes the tracking thing rather ugly.
Suppose John Doe takes Jane Doe(no relation) on a date. They seem to hit it off, one thing leads to another and....within 3 weeks he's moved in with her. Or she with him. (Yikes! But...it does happen.)
Another week of great sex, lazy wake ups and take out meals eaten from bed ensues before John, or Jane, realizes that Jane, or John, is actually really an as#@&%e. Maybe it's because they were *being honest* and admitted their lover was out of the country for 6 months, and though they'd be back in a few weeks, why let that ruin a good thing? Or any number of scenarios that would lead John, or Jane, to end the thing.
Alas....Jane, or John, has emotional problems, and has a long history of stalkeresque behavior....
This becomes readily enough apparent to John, or Jane, when emails begin flooding their account, letters arrive in the mail and their phones - cel, hardwired and work lines - ring incessantly....
It gets so bad that Jane, or John, feels they have to change contact info and even gets to the point they feel a need to change their living address.
Alas, besides being insane, John, or Jane(the crazy one - stay with me!), has a brother, or sister, who works at the local precinct. In the past, this sister, or brother, has been known to enjoy taking requests...for a slight fee.... to dabble a little bit in the realm of the Gumshoe.....
The policeman, or policewoman, rather enjoys going into the car tracking database and piecing together information.....
In short order, crazy Jane, or John, gets a dossier detailing driving habits - simple enough to figure out she, or he, goes to Pump It Up Gym 3 x a week, works at Kill Me Know BrainDrain Enterprises (and tends to arrive 20 minutes late), shops at Really Green Give Us Your Dollars Organic Mart, and often spends the night at a residence different from the one she, or he, has given on their "change of" records.
Next thing you know....it's a triple homicide (lover, stupid person who moved in with a stranger, and the nice neighbor lady who knocked on the door when she heard noises that sounded rather violent). The pet dog is also killed, and unfortunately none of this was found out before little Suzie and Jeff (7th grade twins) came home after school.....
.....but probably there are other reasons it would be a bad thing, too. Like getting picked up and sent to central booking because you didn't pay that parking fine.
|
|
crøtch
climber
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 06:51pm PT
|
There's a long history of police using surveillance to monitor lawful activities which creates a "chilling effect" on activisim.
From http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=technology&res=9D0CE3D71F3DF932A15751C1A9649C8B63&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fM%2fMoss%2c%20Michael]A New York Times article
THREATS AND RESPONSES: PRIVACY; Going Electronic, Denver Reveals Long-Term Surveillance
By FORD FESSENDEN WITH MICHAEL MOSS
Published: December 21, 2002
The Denver police have gathered information on unsuspecting local activists since the 1950's, secretly storing what they learned on simple index cards in a huge cabinet at police headquarters.
When the cabinet filled up recently, the police thought they had an easy solution. For $45,000, they bought a powerful computer program from a company called Orion Scientific Systems. Information on 3,400 people and groups was transferred to software that stores, searches and categorizes the data.
Then the trouble began.
After the police decided to share the fruits of their surveillance with another local department, someone leaked a printout to an activist for social justice, who made the documents public. The mayor started an investigation. People lined up to obtain their files. Among those the police spied on were nuns, advocates for American Indians and church organizations.
To make matters worse, the software called many of the groups ''criminal extremists.''
''I wasn't threatened in any way by them watching,'' said Dr. Byron Plumley, who teaches religion and social values at Regis University in Denver, and discovered that the police had been keeping information about his activities against war. ''But there's something different about having a file. If the police say, 'Aha, he belongs to a criminal extremist organization,' who's going to know that it's the American Friends Service Committee, and we won the Nobel Peace Prize?''
....
continued at nytimes.com
|
|
Off the Couch
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2007 - 11:51pm PT
|
Happiegirl, your example is a tad outlandish, no?
It may not convince you, but in most states it is a FELONY for law enforcement to improperly access information, as you describe in your example. And each time the info is accessed it leaves a traceable trail, which acts as a deterrent.
Ask any cop you happen to know about the paranoid citizen's fantasy of cops randomly and improperly running your license plate, or otherwise accessing personal information. I guarantee they will look at you sideways and be somewhat offended at your implication that it is a common occurrence. Cops have better things to do, like meet their monthly ticket quotas . . .
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
"It may not convince you, but in most states it is a FELONY for law enforcement to improperly access information, as you describe in your example. And each time the info is accessed it leaves a traceable trail, which acts as a deterrent."
But who will prosecute them? It's also a crime for cops on the job to speed except in specified circumstances, but you don't see them being stopped and ticketed, do you? Cops pretty much get a free pass in breaking rules.
The Feds aren't bound by state laws, so Homeland Security pretty much gets a free pass. Even if they break federal law, who is going to prosecute them? A Justice Department run by Alberto Gonzales? In many cases the targeted individuals are not informed that they are being targeted, so they do not have an opportunity to complain.
ABC News
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/03/exclusive_repor.html
Exclusive: Report Says FBI Violated Patriot Act Guidelines
Share
March 08, 2007 8:26 PM
Brian Ross and Vic Walter Report:
The FBI repeatedly failed to follow the strict guidelines of the Patriot Act when its agents took advantage of a new provision allowing the FBI to obtain phone and financial records without a court order, according to a report to be made public Friday by the Justice Department's Inspector General.
The report, in classified and unclassified versions, remains closely held, but Washington officials who have seen it tell ABC News it documents "numerous lapses" and describe it as "scathing" and "not a pretty picture for the FBI."
FBI Director Robert Mueller is scheduled to brief Congress on the report at noon.
The officials say the inspector general found the FBI underreported by at least 20 percent the use of the controversial provision, known as National Security Letters, NSLs, in required disclosures to Congress.
The Patriot Act gave FBI agents the ability to demand telephone, bank, credit card and library records by issuing an administrative letter, bypassing the need to seek a warrant from a federal judge.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
Posted on cnn a couple of hours ago.
Spy chief: Anti-terrorist programs more extensive than acknowledged
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Bush administration's anti-terrorist surveillance efforts are more extensive than top officials have acknowledged, going beyond the controversial no-warrant eavesdropping program, the U.S. intelligence chief said Tuesday.
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales is being asked to provide records about a data-mining program.
President Bush acknowledged a program allowing the government to wiretap phone calls without obtaining a warrant in 2005. The program, run by the National Security Agency, is at the center of disputed congressional testimony by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.
Gonzales is defending himself against allegations that he lied to Congress about a 2004 dispute between the White House and Justice Department over the legality of the eavesdropping program.
In a letter defending the embattled attorney general, National Intelligence Director Mike McConnell states that eavesdropping is just one of the programs President Bush authorized after the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington.
"This is the only aspect of the NSA activities that can be discussed publicly because it is the only aspect of those various activities whose existence has been fully acknowledged," McConnell wrote.
The letter was requested by Sen. Arlen Specter, the ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, in order to clarify the accuracy of Gonzales' testimony.
Specter told CNN's "The Situation Room" that McConnell's letter will require further interpretation once he receives an accompanying letter from Gonzales.
"If he doesn't have a plausible explanation, then he hasn't leveled with the committee," Specter said.
Bush acknowledged the no-warrant eavesdropping program's existence in December 2005, after it was disclosed in The New York Times. He insisted the program -- which targets communications into and out of the United States by people suspected of having ties to the al Qaeda terrorist network -- was legal and carefully reviewed.
Critics say the program violates a 1978 law that requires the approval of a special court that oversees wiretaps in intelligence cases.
Bush called the disclosure of the surveillance program "a shameful act" and added, "The fact that we're discussing this program is helping the enemy."
In 2006, Gonzales told a Senate committee there was no "serious disagreement" over the surveillance program within the administration. But former Deputy Attorney General James Comey testified in May that he and other top Justice officials were prepared to resign in 2004 if the program were re-authorized, describing a dramatic nighttime standoff with Gonzales -- then White House counsel -- in former Attorney General John Ashcroft's hospital room over the matter.
Gonzales told Congress last week that the dispute was over "other intelligence activities," not the eavesdropping program. Gonzales will lean heavily on this distinction as he defends himself against perjury charges. Video Watch how Gonzales may defend himself »
But FBI Director Robert Mueller testified last week that Ashcroft told him it did involve the program.
However, a former government official familiar with the controversy told CNN over the weekend that the dispute centered not on eavesdropping, but on data-mining -- running computer searches through electronic databases that identified the senders and recipients of the e-mails or calls intercepted.
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
True - my scenario got away with me as I began hunting and pecking. That does tend to happen with me. But I am not the sort who goes sorting through newsclips to get the goods, and others here do a fine job if it, so I leave it to them.
As for cops not using the databases....Are you JOKING????
hahahah...oh, that's rich.
And yes, I have spoken with cops. They're, oftentimes, just people. Just like you and me. You know, my mom once said "Eye doctors can't see. Ear doctors can't hear. And psychiatric dotors are crazy." She was a nurse, and I guess that one was an insider's perspective. Alas, it holds true - people tend to follow things that are pertinent to their life experiences.
I have met many cops. And many of those cops were petty criminals as teens.
But, what do I know.....
On a more serious note - the thing that actually bothers me about the OP topic, is that it *seems* someone is attempting to abscond with our country. A lot of people say that's crazy, but..... Well, I'd like nothing better than to see the 2008 prez election bring someone new in and have all this talk fizzle out. To realize one day, a few years down the line, that this was all just a bad dream. Happy to be called paranoid in the Land of the Free.
|
|
Pennsylenvy
Social climber
|
|
My brother told me something to the effect that Lockhead Martin recieves a percentage of the revenue of the tickets from those cameras at intersections. Anybody known the truth of the matter? If this is true we are already deeper than we may think. Offf the couch .....why are you so defensive about this technology/sacrifice of our privacy? Are you in criminal justice?
|
|
Off the Couch
Trad climber
|
|
No, Penn, not in criminal justice.
I just tire of hearing the same old paranoid liberal ramblings, over and over.
Of course cops are human, with all our frailties. And of course there will be those who are only seperated from ciminality by the thin blue line.
But, I have yet to hear any concrete examples from anyone of cops accessing personal info for nefarious purposes.
And yes, I too have heard that the red light camera contractors had a stake in the enforcement funds. That's why they shortened duration of the yellow lights - to catch more drivers running reds lights! Now THAT is pure corporate evil.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
At various times I have seen reports:
1. Some cars already have transmitting GPS. I would guess LOJACK has/will go in this direction.
2. When driving while using a cell phone the phone company can track you by looking at changes in the tower servicing the link.
3. Some cars contain the equivalent of the black box carried on airliners and hold evidence that can be introduced in court.
Fifteen years ago the company where I worked developed an infrared system that smog tested all the cars as they drove by on the freeway. They also were able to read license plates. At the time the political will to use the capability was not there, so nothing came of it. Therein lies the answer to this thread's question.
But longer term, as population climbs and the mean physical separation between people decreases, should we not expect "privacy" to be an evolving concept? Really? We may not like where we are going, but afterall, we are the ones at fault.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2007 - 01:24pm PT
|
there is something inherently problematic with analyzing privacy as it relates to the exercise of power.
power can be exercised in a way that is both intentional and non-subjective.
meaning that power is exercised to do some thing. but no one individual is responsible.
thus an ever creeping 'we do it to ourselves' becomes palpable as we think of privacy as it relates to who we are, what we do, essentially our own identities construct our sense of what is private and what is public but in a way that we exercise power thru ourselves, self defining in a way, that is intended to do something, e.g. maybe an efficiency gain, but also, no one individual is responsible for it's net effect; that is, the degradration of a concept of the private life (and I would argue private even in a public space since historically we have had the anonymity of the crowd).
thots in particular on this aspect of power?
|
|
TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
3. Some cars contain the equivalent of the black box carried on airliners and hold evidence that can be introduced in court
Yup! That's what nailed the cops driving Gov. Corzine. 91 mph. Using their flashing lights, just to transport a governor back to talk to the nappy headed ho guy.
Here is what strikes me about this thread. Most of the posters seem to want to find this (or other topics) good or bad - black or white.
Even when I attempted to elicit a value measurement, nobody could (or would) do it. Is the price of the rope you bought good or bad? Is the price of your gasoline good or bad? (Hint, if you do not know the answer, you need to understand the concept of free markets - which is not analogous to free beer.)
Risk managers in IT seem to think like this too. If we do X, something bad could happen. Duh. Glad they don't control my car keys. I would have to leave the car in the garage, because I could get in an accident and get killed.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2007 - 10:22pm PT
|
Trad, i get your point.
But let me sorta pose another thought experiment...
what if we could only every discuss things in shades of gray? could you ever have a winning argument over other shades of gray? Or does it take the finality of a black or white statement to finally execute on a particular normative idea or action?
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
This privacy issue seems like a slippery slope issue. While allowing additional information to be captured about it has the benefit of preventing certain thefts and crimes, it is a step down a road that could lead to excess government control of the population.
That's an unacceptable risk in my mind as the past 7 years have demonstrated an increasing tendency for the government to punish dissent and grab increased powers to detain, imprison and abuse people without due process or fair due process.
Give me increased risk of having my car stolen or being hit by a speeder than take a step down a road where big brother can know, judge and control my life.
It's not just me. Many are speculating that our president will potentially avoid allowing the 2008 election. I've never seen anything like that before. It's stunning that Bush and Cheney claim they can prevent the justice department from prosecuting any of the administration. That's a major, major power grab.
Are there conservatives left that fear the power of big government or is that only a fear of higher taxes when Democrats are in charge?
peace
Karl
|
|
TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
what if we could only every discuss things in shades of gray?
could you ever have a winning argument over other shades of gray?
Yes.
Or does it take the finality of a black or white statement to
finally execute on a particular normative idea or action?
No, except if you mean by normative that you convert measurements
into boolean statements, in which case you arrive at a tautology,
which is not useful for analytical purposes.
The answers to your question are obvious to me. I will leave it
to you to find examples.
Hint: Just think of some quantity that is measured that can have
a continuum of values at least over some range. The quantity that
you choose could support a life or death decision. Then take that
quantity and give it only two values instead of a continuum of
values. See how that alters the ability to support normative
action.
EDIT. BTW MC and crotch, please edit your links into embedded
links, (or put a space in the middle). Click Help below the edit window if you do not know how.
Using long links makes it very hard to read since ST does not
wrap them. To make this readable I inject line feeds into the
text. Yuck!
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/08/01/gps.taxi.strike.ap/index.html
..NEW YORK (AP) -- A group representing thousands of taxi drivers said last week it will idle cabs in September if the city goes ahead with a plan to require installation of GPS tracking systems.
Starting October 1, as the city's 13,000 taxis come up for inspections they must have the GPS equipment along with touch-screen monitors that will let passengers pay by credit card, check on news stories and look up restaurant and entertainment information.
If the Taxi & Limousine Commission abandons the GPS part of the plan, "then there's room to sit down and talk," said Bhairavi Desai, executive director of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance, which counts more than 8,400 members.
But if the plan moves forward, she said, the group will specify the date, duration and other details of the potential work stoppage next month.
The Taxi Workers Alliance -- an advocacy group rather than a labor union -- said GPS devices would be an invasion of drivers' privacy because they could track cabs' movements......."
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2007 - 12:23am PT
|
Trad, heh, very interesting that you mention this...
" tautology,
which is not useful for analytical purposes."
i.e. something self defining
very useful for analytical purposes because it shows that if you turn to a tautology for the normative value as part of one's argument, then it really is taking a stand to show the argument.
black or white... hrm
|
|
captain chaos
climber
|
|
The plans the US gov. and their wealthy friends from around the world have in mind for their slaves (all normal citizens in general) is shocking to say the least... How far they will get before the slaves stand up against them is another thing all together, but it is what will be required to keep our freedom and privacy rights. The thing most people don't realize is that they never abolished slavery, they just made everyone a slave via a fraudulent and illegal tax system... and now their planning to monitor everyone's ass with a chip to make sure no one except themselves can get away from the system... its the typical do as we say, not as we do gang- its happening and its coming everyone's way sooner then you think.
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
..... I have dial up and can't watch videos. Plus, I have about 2 more minutes online before the weekend hits(yeah!).
But if there is a written transcript, or info about the video Chaos posted - please advise. I'd like to read.
I think what would be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and gets us outraged enough to resist pjhysically, would be the disallowing of the 2008 elections, which some people do fear is in the plans.
Of course, there's a long time between now and then, and what clampdowns will be in place by 11/08? (That immigration "control" bill that didn't go through listed 10/08/08 as the "big day" to have new laws in place.....)
|
|
Wild Bill
climber
Ca
|
|
Who here has had a chip implanted in them?
So what's our end game for all this? Pound a twelve pack of Coors Light, get on your dirtbike, and ride forever into the hills?
|
|
captain chaos
climber
|
|
You can write your congressman asking for information on these things (like the Federal ID card everyone will be required to have come March 2008) and try to stop it via letting others know what's coming their way where hopefully some will join in and fight to keep your freedom and privacy rights from being stolen from you, or you can simply do what most will do and that's bend over and let the US gov. have their way with you- Do know that several states and their congressmen are against the federal ID program and these other programs they have in the works to take our constitutional rights away from us, but their going to need everyone's help to keep it from happening- chaos
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
It's funny to me that Slick Will wanted "multi-point tapping" of terror suspects but that chit got taken out of his terror bill (Repubs concerned about civil liberties...so they said)...
FYI-a lot of that immigration stuff is being "writ" into other bills...
|
|
N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
|
|
How can Libs point the finger a Neo-Cons and say things like, you idiots are so willing to give up your rights and freedoms just to feel safe, yet the same Libs will take away our right to bare arms.
I agree this is scary stuff and a bad direction to be heading.
If everyone would exercise our first amendment right do you think the government would be so quick to pinch off our liberties?
I think both political parties feel they as leaders are better suited to make the important decisions in our life's and they both feel the the "ends justifies the means".
Libs want to disarm us and Neo-Cons want to make sure that they are so supremely powerful that our small arms won't matter.
I'd rather be able to put up a small fight than not at all.
|
|
N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
|
|
A.C. Yeah, more and more repubicans will start going that way as well I'm sure, all under the disguise of safety for the people.
|
|
captain chaos
climber
|
|
Below is an informative source for the Real ID card. There are groups out there which are fighting it along with several states, at the bottom of the article there are many articles/links in concern to this issue and others.
http://www.epic.org:80/privacy/id_cards/
|
|
captain chaos
climber
|
|
That's why its so easy for the Feds to get away with it, very few seem to care... Fear not though, what's coming up will capture everyone's attention when some of these things begin to happen and bites everyone in the ass, or should I say when they wake up and find a chip in their ass-
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2018 - 07:26pm PT
|
Random bump for vintage thread using the double secret method
|
|
| Messages 1 - 62 of total 62 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Tracking of the location of a license plate.
Let us know!