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Standing Strong
Trad climber
don't u worry 'bout a thang, baby
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2007 - 03:09pm PT
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well, my question was assuming that no one would get caught... meaning that those who might be offended, wouldn't know. so, i don't understand how people feel like it would be desecrating the space if no one who felt like it was being desecrated knew about it... if my lover and i were the only two people on the planet who knew, what would be the harm? i'm not saying i would go into a church with the intention of um, having "relations" there, but, if my lover and i were there already and the spirit overtook us, and i knew no one would catch us or find out, then hell yea.
SorryI'veBeenBusyPracticingWitchcraftAndBecomingALesbianEdit:
it's kind of like that age old question about the tree falling in the forest and is there anyone to hear it.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Only if it was with my mother and a bunch of Dwarfs......Or your Mother, why would a church matter?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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If I have sex in a church, synagogue, mosque I destroy my own spiritual and psychological fiber irregardless of whether or not the parishoners or priests know about it. Once again, it's a respect issue. And respect is definitley a spiritual quality. Discrete and blatant disrespect has karmaic consequences to the mind and spirit the perpetrator.
What if someone gets a moments thrill from having sex on their neighbors dining room table when their neighbor is away---same thing. The neighbor may never know but the perpetrator destroys the integrity of their own spiritual self by tying disrespect into their sex act.
Inappropriate doesn't become appropriate simply because no one is around.
Disrespecting others space or spiritual sanctuary when they KNOW about it is also a SOCIAL ETHICS issue. But disrespect, even when no one else knows about it, still has consequences to our OWN spiritual and mental health, and if you will, to our karma. My tresspass on your space or sanctuary may not destroy YOU but it destroys my own self integrity. Sex in a church won't take a gram away from the Almighty but it deforms my own spiritual and moral footprint by the willing act of contempt against that which others consider sacred.
But myself, being spiritually blind, I won't see the connection or understand why I'm beset with depression, paranoia and rage.
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MikeL
climber
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Coiler complains about religious people when they prostelyze to others. If that's the complaint, then life must be miserable. Just who, in this day and age, is not selling something? Aren't the anti-religious selling something here also? (But let's not be consistent or logical about this, huh?)
"Tu Quoqui."
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MikeL
climber
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It depends.
In Tibet the unification of religious belief and government was working really well.
It's all in the execution. A great many ideas are worthy of belief and support--if properly implemented. That's the issue, isn't it? You need to understand the issues, not just throw around the terms as though they say everything.
An insitution with laws but without a soul is a dead community. You need the heart and the head, and they need to be connected.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
don't u worry 'bout a thang, baby
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2007 - 04:06pm PT
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k jenny, what if it was a super liberal church that probly wouldn't care, like a unitarian universalist church? or the parish hall at my grandma's super liberal church? some people feel that that act is like using your body as a vessel for god's light.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Yeah it's a Vessel for something........
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scuffy b
climber
Bates Creek
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Is being beset with depression, paranoia and rage considered to
be a typical aftereffect?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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k jenny, what if it was a super liberal church that probly wouldn't care, like a unitarian universalist church? or the parish hall at my grandma's super liberal church? some people feel that that act is like using your body as a vessel for god's light.
Standing Strong,
I knew most Unitarians opt for a less structured interpretation of Christianity. I wasn't aware of their exact opinions of sex in church. I'm thinking most sects, Christian or not, would discourage the practice. But you're right, where there is no rule or convention against it, a tresspass or descecration cannot be defined. I'm sure you know that one's body can be used as a vessel for God's light without sex in church.
In some sects, the priests or pastors have their living quarters inside the church building complex and have their wives living with them. So, obviously, sex would be proper, in that context, within a church building. I was suggesting that sex in the chapel or inner shrine of the building was improper, and that people who get a thrill from flaunting the descecration of a shrine were in error. Freedom of religion is supposedly a right and descecrating the holy places of someone else' faith offends that right. But those who DO believe "sex in church" is proper, in their own places of worship, can invoke the freedom of religion argument to their beliefs also.
Were probably not going to agree 100% on this but I appreciate your sincerity on the issue.
Is being beset with depression, paranoia and rage considered to be a typical aftereffect?
Scuffy,
I wrote that in the context of, if I, deliberately and with "malice of forthought" attempt to descecrate the shrine of others, not those individuals who may do it innocently.
A premise of Freudian Projection doctrine is that people attribute their own undesirable traits onto others, e.g. An aggresive person sees others as being hostile, a cheater sees everyone else as dishonest, an adulter constantly accuses his wife of being unfaithful---we project our own thoughts, feelings and actions onto others and blame them for traits that we really have ourselves.
From that premise, paranoia and depression can be predicted in individuals who exhibit or profess a desire to descecrate the sanctity of churches, sanctuaries, holy places etc. (Of course that goes beyond just the context of sex, as you see people in the middle east destroying places that are holy to their enemies). Predicting rage can be more scetchy. Aggressive, angry people are more prone to develop fits of rage from their own paranoia and depression.
Those who innocently "tresspass" on others can be held culpable by the law (in theory), but I doubt they can be considered guilty MORALLY. If they unknowingly tresspass a so called sanctuary or holy place they may feel some guilt for having offended others but aren't likely to develop paranoia or long term depression as a result of their action.
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Captain...or Skully
Trad climber
North of the Owyhees
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Dec 30, 2008 - 10:34pm PT
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Absolutely!
Can we start now?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Dec 30, 2008 - 10:36pm PT
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Why ? When you have the whole great outdoors....
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Captain...or Skully
Trad climber
North of the Owyhees
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Dec 30, 2008 - 10:37pm PT
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Well, it ain't so much about where..........
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wtfd
climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 10:47pm PT
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i got a blowjob in a church once....then again, I wasnt there to worship.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Dec 30, 2008 - 10:50pm PT
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im not much of an exhibitionist, but if the opportunity presented itself i probably would. I can't really imagine such a thing happening without it being a bit contrived though. The foolishness of doing it in a church just for the sake of having done so would probably be the biggest obstacle for me.
The idea that it would be morally wrong somehow doesnt wash with me-- even as a Christian I am pretty sure that God would be ok with it since it was all His idea to begin with. There are plenty of self righteous religious ideologues who would be affronted...and that is a price I would be more than willing to pay.People like that are responsible for the deterioration of people's faith and the overall disdain for all things spiritual. Perhaps it's not all their fault but they are a large part of the problem.
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apogee
climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 11:11pm PT
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My immediate reaction was wtf, then after a bit more thought, no. I don't really subscribe to any kind of organized religion, and I do have respect for many people who do (as long as they allow it to guide their own lives, and not proselytize). Churches are very important places to those people, and the only reason I can think of to have sex there would be to rub something in their faces. They'd have to really piss me off to get me to that point.
On second thought, the Mormon Temple might be kinda cool...
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Dec 31, 2008 - 12:03am PT
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Back to the sex in a church question.
My answer is yes.
I would prefer the hetero variety. Not that there is anything wrong with the other variety.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Dec 31, 2008 - 12:22am PT
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" and the only reason I can think of to have sex there would be to rub something in their faces. They'd have to really piss me off to get me to that point. "
"On second thought, the Mormon Temple might be kinda cool..."
Curious the inventive fantasy humans will employ to instigate blood flow to their private parts
.............then rationalize it as moral sanction.
Perhaps one day they'll fashion proud hallucinations promoting blood flow to the brain.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 31, 2008 - 12:46am PT
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turns out i HAVE had sex in a church.
wtf??
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apogee
climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 12:57am PT
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Jennie-
Yeah, I figured that might get your skivvies in a twist- and it only took 1:11 for you to notice!
"Moral sanction"- your characterization, no doubt borne of hypersensitivity to Mormon criticism and an engrained attitude of the perception of being perpetually oppressed.
For the record, I won't have sex under the glorious gold-lined ceilings of the Mormon Temple. But if there has ever been a proselytizing religion that might tempt me, Mormonism would be in the top 3.
Signed, apogee
(Yet another oppressor of the Mormons, and yet another reason Mormons will go to heaven while the rest of us writhe around in agony here on earth.)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:11am PT
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t*r, you may be confusing yourself with someone else with the pen name "Standing Strong". That's ok - much of the thread is interesting, witty, or both.
We never did settle on a definition of 'church'.
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