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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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Interesting. CAMP still makes the Lost Arrows (for BD in the US, their own name everywhere else). 34 years of continuous production without change (well, no more super long dongs). Can't think of any other climbing product that even comes close.
So all the Chouinard hammers were made in Ventura and all the ice axes in Italy? Seems logical to have CAMP make hammers too but maybe not. Crampons and ice screws were from Salewa in Austria. Ropes from Mammut in Switzerland.
Wonder why Patagucci says the first catalog was in 72 when it would be to their advantage to claim even older. Not that anyone cares.
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Jim Herrington
Mountain climber
New York, NY
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Jun 19, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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Here's a piton made from the hands of Chouinard himself, in July 2000, in his old shop.
I was there photographing him, he was doing some work that day, I photographed the finished product:
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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Clear testimony to Tom Frost who is ultimately the designer of the modern Arrow and created and refined the dies still in use. Tom would say that Salathe deserves the credit, of course.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Jun 19, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
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Ain’t no Flatlander:
Since I worry that any minor errors on these posts will become locked in history: I need to share a few more Chouinard items that were produced in Ventura-----at least for a while.
Ice screws: Chouinard sold Salewa Tubular screws up to 1976 and then switched to their U.S. made Chouinard Tubular Screw.
They sold Salewa Warthogs (Salewa Spiral) up through 1975, then sometime in the late 70’s briefly made a similar, but very cool, Chouinard USA Warthog. I can’t find it in my 1975, 78, 81, or 84 Chouinard catalogs (but I own 3 that I purchased in the late 1970’s-or possibly early 1980’s).
Carabiners: from their product history in the catalogs, Chouinard made his own Carabiners (in Ventura) from 1957 to 1968.
I am sure there were different runs of these. I own some that only say Chouinard, but one sold recently on EBAY that said Chouinard on one side and 820 Alcoa 7075 on the other.
1968-1972 they went to a new style that Salewa made. It says Chouinard/Salewa on one-side and 2200 KP on the other. Initially these were not tested for strength, but later ones were tested and stamped that on the gate.
1974 carabiner production went back to US and I think----stayed here.
I suspect there are other items that went in and out of U.S. production, but these are the ones I have keyed on.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
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Prior to the flat sided Chouinard modified D (1974) that was made in great numbers, I have seen at least 4- 5 earlier versions. One clear indicator of age is the growing size of the stamps over time on biners and angles. They start very small at first and get larger with each generational design modification.
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RDB
Social climber
way out there
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Jun 20, 2009 - 02:11am PT
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Ray, the '75/'76 catalog with Frost's picture of Machapuchare on the cover has the Chouinard wart hog on page 47.
I bought my first ones, most likely from you, after we broke the older style ones (yours?) on Deborah. My journal says wart hogs were the only thing that really worked. Makes sense they didn't get used much (some hammer marks on mine but not a lot) as the new tubes came out within the same or at the latest the next winter season.
I kept one of the new hogs to help clean those new tubes.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2009 - 12:22pm PT
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Any photos or tales from your Deborah trip that you would care to share. What route did you get on? A very beautiful and historic peak.
Mount Deborah from the south. The 1954 party approached from the west and gained the corniced south ridge at the saddle which appears to be just below the summit. They took six hours from here to the top. The east ridge, right, has so far turned back all attempts. Austin Post photo.
From Climbing in North America by Chris Jones, 1976.
A couple of Hog, Tube and Screw shots from up thread.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Jun 20, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
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Dane: Feel free to post up Deborah photos I shared with you, if you have time.
Re Chouinard Wart Hog----it is Deja-vue all over again. I think you told me previously about the Chouinard Wart Hog being in the 1975 catalog, but my scan of it shows the older Salewa warthog. I now realize your page 47 may well be from a newer issue of the 75 catalog.
So-----here's the Chouinard USA Warthog above the older Salewa. Steve has a fine photo of the newer Salewa (which I don't think Chouinard cataloged) in his photos of screws: posted 12/22/08 on this link.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
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Were the modern Warthogs drop forged? The Salewa versions seemed to be cut from solid round stock with the eye loop added on.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Jun 20, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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Fritz, Thanks for sending me the price list from your 1968 catalog. I have the same price list as you, but also I have a different one. The 1968 catalog on the price list page shows a photo of pitons and Yo hammer at the bottom. I have this catalog, and I have this same catalog with a Ventura post date on it Sept 1969. I also have another 1968 catalog with the longer pricelist (no photo on bottom)(same as Fritz) with postdate of late 1969. Question is did Chouinard produce a 1969 catalog? Chouinard may have mailed out the earlier catalog to the individual if he ran out of the 69 catalog? Who knows? Interesting though that early 68 catalog lists Mammut Rope and Clogwyn Wedge-Wedge sm and large. My later 68 possible 69 catalog lists Clogwyn Wedge 1,2,3,4, Chouinard Rope, Jackets, mitts, glasses, Piolet 55cm/70cm. Chouinards History List shows Piolets at 1969.
Overall Chouinard Catalog history: first mail order catalog came out in 1964 and was only a one page list of equipment and prices. I have copy of 1965 catalog which has front cover of climbers on pitch 4 of North American wall. I have not seen a 1966 catalog. I have copy of 1967 catalog which has assorted pitons and Yo hammer on front cover. I have two versions of 1968 catalog which both have ice climber on front cover. I believe that there was no 1969 catalog, just price list changed in 68 catalog to serve as 69 catalog. (somebody please show me that I am wrong). If your 1968 catalog shows a Piolet in the price list, you may be holding the 69 catalog. I have copy of 1970 catalog which shows two ice climbers on front cover and says '70. I have terrible copy of a 1971 supplement catalog that has a single hex on front cover. It states that the Yo hammer and Alpine were completely redesigned for an improvement for 1971. I also have an orange color booklet that is an instruction manual for the use of Chouinard Pitons. It has no date but I always thought it was circa 1970-71. I believe it was created for the European market since Carabiner is spelled Karabiner throughout the booklet. Chouinard never spelled Carabiner with a "K" that I know of.
Chouinard printed 10,000 catalogs in 1972. The 72' catalog at the time was considered the best literature on climbing. This catalog has got to be the most desired catalog by collectors. The front cover is Japanese water painting and the same cover remained through 1974. If you have the very first catalog, the price list in the back of the catalog should be in a single column. Most of the other price lists states the date of the catalog somewhere on the page. Keep in mind that over 1972-74 there was a new catalog every quarter. So basically 12 different possibilities with the same cover. I have only found 5 so far. In 1973 Chouinard incorporated and changed it's name to Great Pacific Ironworks. 1973 Chouinard put out a supplement fold-out brocure which shows the super rare #1 Crack N' Up. Crack N' Ups were not sold until 1975. Only 10 #1 Crack N' Ups were produced and 6 were destroyed in the testing. #1 would start bending at 150lbs so it was never produced. The 1975, 1976, and 1977 catalog all has the same "Machapuchare" front cover - If you have the 1975 it will have solid hexes on page 8. If you have the 1976 it will have hexes with holes on page 8. If you have the 1977 it will have 1977 in the History list showing Featherweight Carabiner. By 1976 Chouinard was distributing 35,000 catalogs. From 1978 to present Black Diamond there is a new catalog every year, sometimes many catalogs for each year.
So I guess what I am saying, Does anybody out there have the 1964, 1966 and 1969 Chouinard catalogs?
Rock on!
Marty
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Jun 20, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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Jim,
Awesome photo of the Chouinard Piton and Stamp!!!!!!!!!!!
I would love to have a copy of it!
Rock on!
Marty
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RDB
Social climber
way out there
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Jun 20, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
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This thread just keeps getting better and better! Awesome photos and info on the catalogs, thanks!
Deborah? I would but with all due respect to Ray we were pogues on Deborah in '76. 4 kids with no idea what they were getting into.
The next year after a aborted trip to Makalu with Roskelley I was working in a bush camp in SE Alaska. Pretty full of myself being hired as a full time "climber" doing surveying. Then this skinny, wild haired kid (we were wild haired kids then) shows up working with the geologists. One of the guys mentions to me he had just climbed Deborah a couple of weeks before.
I said, "BULL SH#T! Really? No way?!" Dave introduced me to Carl Tobin...just back from the 1st ascent of the NW ridge and the rest is history. Carl then went back with Cheesmond and did Jensen's east Ridge years later. While I still think about it on occasion I have never been back.
But what was the chances of two guys who had been on Deborah showing up in a fly in mining camp....200 miles from no where in SE Alaska in '77? Small world.
So who has a hand forged Climax?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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Adventure awaits everyone in the mountains, pogues and supermen alike. Great stories don't really require great deeds...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 20, 2009 - 02:46pm PT
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And that proprietary Warthog is some very slick industrial design.
Frost again?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jun 20, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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Slick design on the Warthog, all right. Beautiful! It sure has the feel of Frost; I'd like to believe it's his, and can't recall when he left the company.
I'm appreciating it all the more now as a pure design. Kind of blew past it at the time. Functionally it never stood up to a screw in any mode in Sierra water ice: in, out, or strength.
Steve, your question about how it was actually made has me scratching my head. Someone on here has got to be able to tell us. I hope. Anyone know if the fabrication method was then available of pouring finely powdered metal into a mold and zapping it with electricity? Small steel nuts were later made that way, fused right onto their cables.
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RDB
Social climber
way out there
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Jun 20, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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Chouinard's wart hog we are looking at I believe was investment cast. DR your are right it does look like it could well be a MIM part. I would be suspicious of that technology for a ice pin. Catastrothic fail (work with MIM parts on a daily basis) is common and I think later technology. Frost left GPIW in 1975.
But everyone is right, looks like a Frost design to me as well :) Certainly time frames are close enough so the GPIW version of the wart hog could well be a Frost design. Someone should ask.
Now, DAMIT, who has a hand forged climax?
Not Chouinard and a bit later..end of the '70s. CURVERS by Snowdon Molding. Hand forged heads by Stubia and one at a time hand made shafts by Snowdon Moldings. Boardman and Tasker used them on Changabang, Mugs used one on Moonflower Buttress and Moose Tooth with a Roosterhead. Enough curve in the pick to keep filing them down and adding teeth as required to keep them in service. Most were between 40cm and 45cm and tough as a rock !!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
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I would bet that the hand forged Climax never made it past prototype before aesthetics and weight turned it toward the miniaturized piolet head.
The Warthog must have been drop forged as it has a clear seam plane. The older warthog that I used began to mushroom on the second or third use leading me to believe it was machined from ordinary round stock with the eyeloop welded on last just like the Salewa tubes.
Nice progression of Curvers!!!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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A little carabiner dump for those interested.
The 1968 catalog page.
The 1972 catalog page showing the same biner with a bigger nose IMO.
Some more Chouinard biners that are hopefully in focus. 1968 to 1974 on the left pair (two versions), 1974 and past flat sides (two versions).
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Jun 21, 2009 - 08:31pm PT
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Steve: I'm trying to get up to speed on the pre 1972--------pre-Salewa Chouinard carabiners. In your photo of 4 carabiners, will you share what inscriptions (sounds holy doesn't it?) are on the far-left (another clue) earliest carabiner.
I'm also curious about the Chouinard Salewa Carabiner with the X in front of and behind Chouinard-Salewa. Was that owner made or something from production?
thanks, Fritz
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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The X is my stamp and I will have to go digging to find those biners again. The 68 to 74 run seems to have two flavors but I need to get a better look again. I didn't have my digital camera figured out when those shots were taken. More soon.
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