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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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Le_Bruce
"...are almost mandatory..."
That's so far off. People have been climbing 'hard trad' for generations, long before Friends existed, let alone the relatively recent apparition of Aliens. Historical perspective - something every climber should try to have.
The key word there is "ALMOST", and your historical perspective seems to be lacking since most of the 'hard trad' before friends was actually aid climbing with pins. Many of the hard trad routes that are climbed today would be extremely difficult if not impossible to protect without micro cams. Unless you think you can free a 5.12 or harder trad route while nailing pins and screwing up the rock in the process.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Andanother, google climbing cam defect.
Then you can update the list.
Edit: Without naming names, at least three other manufacturers have had quality control problems with cams. Two were with SCLDs and one with a passive camming device.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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why in the world would you "not name names"? is the rep of the manufacturer more valuable than the lives of your friends?
I'd like to hear what a knowledgeable third party thinks about Aliens (like maybe BDs test guys??). Is their (CCH) stuff really sh#t, or are the failures just statistical freaks. For better or worse I just (maybe 6 months back) dropped $250 or so for my first set of Aliens (4 offsets). Haven't used them yet but already more than once my partners have refused to climb with them. So what's the point of having them. Body weight only for my next solo???
Can I demand a refund?
When is someone who knows how to run a company going to buyout the design. It seems long overdue. Their passivity in the face of all these failures and all this bad rep is amazing. Are those guys just smoking stuff while their company craters?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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RockermIke et al:
The fatal flaw (no pun intended) with any "legitimate" company buying the Alien franchise is this: Aliens are a small quantity, labor intensive, niche market, high liability item. The math on them does not add up for a real company. I would not expect an industry leader buyout righting the ship known as Aliens any time soon.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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" ...most of the 'hard trad' before friends was actually aid climbing with pins. Many of the hard trad routes that are climbed today would be extremely difficult if not impossible to protect without micro cams. Unless you think you can free a 5.12 or harder trad route while nailing pins and screwing up the ..."
Actually a lot of climbers did remarkable clean ascents in the '70's. I recall when friends came out. Sure, cams are great, but don't take away from those who did well without.
The Pirate, in Idyllwild, is a solid 5.12 trad route. I led it clean in 1992 with a rack of stoppers.
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Most of these reports are hear-say.
How hard is it to post a picture?
Must be a little harder when you don't have one, or when you know it might point to user incompetence.
Aliens stick where other cams pop. Even with a few legitimate failures, I would venture they have stopped more accidents than they will ever create. Remember when TCU's hit the market? Everyone knew they were extremely dicey, but accepted the trade offs because there was nothing else going on. Who gives about QC when the cam doesn't even stay in the placement? Aliens worked so much better than anything else out there, and still do.
They're load testing them now, as they should. I suspect their insurance company, after the brazing fiasco, demanded industry stamps - who then demanded a quantitative QC process. All this seems recent, like in the last 12 months. I see the issues soon fading. Send in your cams to get load tested if that makes you feel better, then only buy ones with the test markings. Done.
JLP
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Fifth-hand spray I think here I think some time ago was that somebody who could have done it looked at doing a CCH buyout and found the whole thing to just be too much of cluster, like it wasn't even clear that there was an entity that could be bought that would guarantee rights to the IP and production. Malcolm?
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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99.9% fine is very poor, imho.
if air travel were 99.99% fine, would you feel good about it?
think about it...
considering there are 30000 commercial flights in the US per day, 99.99% safe = 3 major jetliner crashes per day. not fine.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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Ksolem,
Of coarse hard routes were climbed in the 70's, I never said they weren't. But not all routes can be climbed with just a set of stoppers, you should know that as well as anyone. Just try leading the Optimater without cams or pretty much any Indian Creek route. Most would not be safely possible. (And I already know that "Super Crack of the Desert" was first lead on hexes, the key word is "most").
Cleo,
If your not comfortable with the cams then don't use them, it doesn't matter to me. All I'm trying to say is that they are a great design, so get them pull tested if you want and then get out and climb.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Knob Central
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Steven, no one would deny that it is easier to climb many hard climbs with cams than it is with hexes and stoppers. But you said that it was almost impossible to do hard routes with Aliens. I know many, many people that climb 5.12/5.13 that don't (and won't) own Aliens. Also, I think you would be surprised at some of the routes that were done with hexes. Don't discount their usefulness just because you never learned to use them well.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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I'm not sure what is wrong with you people, but I have never said that hard routes cannot be climbed without cams (although some cannot). And I never said that you have to use Aliens to climb hard routes. So why don't you read my posts fully, word for word before you try and twist them around to make some useless point. (Example: "Many of the hard trad routes that are climbed today would be extremely difficult if not impossible to protect without MICRO CAMS.") In this statement there is no mention of Aliens being needed and nothing that states that you absolutly have to have cams to climb hard routes. And actually I do use hexes in specific climbing areas like Vedauwoo and the Needles in South Dakota where they work great. And where exactly did I discount the use of hexes?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I have an armload of these gizmos but they are an aid only piece of equipment in my estimation and not the mainstay of my free rack. It is not worth the stress while leading to carry protection that you do not entirely trust no matter the manufacturer. Aliens are simply too delicate in design and construction for general use in my opinion.
The reason that I finally bought some was one too many two cam placements looking at a broken leg. The narrowness of the overall unit allows for optimal cam contact in pin scars and shallow holes. The offset configuration also has big advantages. I have right and left handed sets of offset Aliens on my rack. You have to request a reverse configuration offset, it's not standard issue.
I hope CCH can work this out because these are valuable tools for the sort of climbing that gets me worked up!
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Knob Central
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Steven, which part of this did we misconstrue?
"I have been using the Aliens for years and love all of them. I have all eight sizes (except the grey) and have personally fallen on every size, even the .33. I have taken up to 20' falls on them and took several 10' falls on the .33 and have never had a problem. When climbing hard trad they are almost mandatory to protect the thin stuff."
You don't just mention cams here, you talk about Aliens being almost mandatory. Maybe this isn't what you meant, but it IS what you said.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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Exactly, "almost" meaning not completely, there is a difference between "almost manditory" and "manditory". And remember Aliens have been around a lot longer than "Zero Cams" and "C3's". There are other options out there now but that was not always the case.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I have found offset Aliens do be "mandetory" sometimes when trying to aid climb clean on Yos walls.
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dirtbagger
Ice climber
Australia
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ok so there has been all this discussions!
What is the conclusion?
I love my Aliens, (stick where nothing else will!)
But do I need to be worried? All mine are Tensile tested!
Russ, you have tested a few, right?
I would be very intersted in your experiences and opinion! What do you say, just User error or is there a problem we gotta look out for?
cheers for your feedback! A very confused Alien-lover.......*can one say that, without it sounding kinda wierd?*
dirtbagger
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Knob Central
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Yeah, but small tech friends and tcus have been around a lot longer than aliens. Having climbed hard for 35 years I have yet to see any reason to own aliens. The only reason I could ever see for owning them is for aid, especially with C3s out now.
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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right- and left-handed sets of offset aliens? i thought they were symmetrical . . .?
reminds me of the joke about the point being on the wrong side of the nail ("those nails are for the other side of the room"). but you sound serious.
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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what i meant was, if the smaller lobes are on the left, then if you turn it around, the smaller lobes are on the right. so i don't see what steve g. means by left-handed versus right-handed or reverse-configuration. presumably it's not the kind of reverse configuration you can achieve by turning the piece over. but then, what?
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