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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Is your high regard for Jefferson because he is a founder, because he expresses ideas that you agree with, he was a really smart guy, or something else?
MikeL,
Is this a serious question? Are you not aware of the long line of 18th century political activists who formed the philipsophical basis of our society and government?
Perhaps you do know, and I'll assume that. My love is not for Jefferson himself but the entire philosophy of the Social Contract. It just so happens that Jefferson wrote the best-known Social Contract document (Decl of Indep), so he is easy to quote. But I prefer the writings of Locke.
As a right-winger I am sure that you are more familiar with hypocrisy that anyone else, but the contradictions of our founding fathers does not negate the greatness of the philosophy that they used to launch a war for liberty against the greatest power on the planet.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jim: How much adult babysitting, meeting a schedule and budget while delivering a project on time have you done as an academic, Mike ?
Jim, I trust this is a question accompanied with a smile?
Academically as a teacher, I hesitate to go there. It was not a pretty picture or experience in those regards. I’ve had parents of MBAs call the dean about the poor treatment his or her son was accorded by me. I helped to initiate and reorganize curricula at Cal Poly (and EMBA program), and the senior faculty finally arose and squashed the efforts of engaged younger faculty (of which I was a part). Later at Cisco Systems I took over an IT apprenticeship program for humanities high achievers (about $1M budget—small). After a year and a half of operations, I suggested to the CIO that the program be discontinued because it didn’t make any sense financially and in terms of the development of human resources. He agreed, and thought that I was a good corporate citizen for it. A couple of months after that, I found that my manager thought that it would be a good idea if I left the company. (We live and learn.) I don’t think I have any bromides that I can provide. I’m just an observer of manifestations. I’m of a view that nothing changes the universe. I’m a cog with a little bit of influence that comes from being in the right place at the right time with the right attitude. That attitude is “go with the flow, actively.”
SLR,
Your distain is palpable. Relax just a little. We’re just talking here. There are no real resources or decisions involved. We’re just (I hope) exploring ideas.
(P.S. Right winger? Please. What makes you jump to that conclusion? Because I challenge you? What do you know of postmodernism?)
Principles of justice may be more fundamental than any social contract as it has been earlier conceived by Hobbes and others. Moreover, feminists argue that a social contract ignores their experiences. Carol Gilligan in her book, “In Another Voice,” made strong distinctions about the difference between the theory of justice by equity versus equality. (Men use equality, while women intuitively use equity.) I like what Gilligan had to say. I do appreciate the notion of equity in justice. (There are many other feminists and postmodernists who make complaints.)
On the other hand, my training in academia made me especially sensitive to abstractions, and Rawls presents the best version (imo) of the social contract. His notion of the original position ignores personal circumstance and talks about rights and equity in a way that completely ignores circumstance *for the sake of pure justice.* Of course it’s highly abstract, but it is also very pure.
I’d say the whole idea of “contracts” makes us things rather than human beings. I’ve seen and complained about exactly the same thing with my colleagues in business schools—mainly economists. Contracts and transaction views between people and their organizations may be instrumentally useful, but it tends to lead to inhumanity. In my field, organizations cannot be built and led simply to maximize self-interest or profit. Organizations are communities of people. (I think I’m getting off track here. Sorry, I have a teleconference with my teacher in a few minutes.)
Let me just say that the whole conversation about “social contracts” has much more to offer than what Jefferson and Hobbes and Locke had to say. Each are embedded in its own social milieu and cultures. It’s complicated. I’d say we should come up-to-date with our conversations. For example, I’d say look at Rawls.
Gotta run. Thanks for writing. Sorry if this is not all that well-written.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sorry if this is not all that well-written.
Humility becomes you, sir. Would that half the crankloons here had one tenth yer expository skills.
Erroneous assumptions and a pervasive intolerance of questions and theses deemed inimicable are sadly the norm here. I’m surprised someone as civil as you still bothers to try and engage in discussions.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Your distain is palpable. Thank you. Good to get some feedback that my message is clearly understood.
Principles of justice may be... True, true, true, true, true, and all irrelevant.
I'm not talking about post-modernism, I'm talking about our 200+ year-old Constitution.
I agree with Rawls' sensibilities. Justice and equity are subsets of the social contract, and are natural extensions of the underlying philosophy. The whole point of the social contract is to advance the human condition.
Contracts and transaction views between people and their organizations may be instrumentally useful, but it tends to lead to inhumanity. Only when Republicans forget their own history. The agenda of the liberals is generally to advance the human condition of everyone, not just billionaires.
The social contract took mankind 5,000 years to develop, and the mental masturbation of postmodern philosophers of the past 200 years isn't somehow superior.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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The agenda of the liberals is generally to advance the human condition of everyone, not just billionaires.
I wouldn't be so sure.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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I wouldn't be so sure. I qualified my statement with "generally," but you're trying to distract attention from the heinous Republicans agenda.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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No, not even generally. Sadly, American liberals are being played in a big way. Or, in some instances, are just willing dupes.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2018 - 12:28pm PT
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Gary, thanks for the correction.
When I arrived in Taco Land and you deviated from the thread topic it was called a thread drift and you were reminded of your faux pas by others. This is no drift it's a tsunami.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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SLR.
Inbetween using the whip on MikeL is a good thing, much needed... no cure for the blindness, but much needed... You're a good man... let the anger slip away...-
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Lynne, my musings on my Jewish friends’ car choices should be on the Life’s Ironies thread
although I saw fit to include it here as my only theory is that Jews are more foregiving than
is good for them. 😉
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Many of today’s Nazi’s are in the USA. Maybe that is why they buy German.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2018 - 04:02pm PT
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NeeBraun .... don't know who you are but you can either delete your post or be the poster child for this thread.
And I'm waiting for someone to comment on the obvious. The hate thread gets over 300 posts, the love one ........9
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2018 - 04:19pm PT
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And you? It's 4pm here. The evening is young. :)
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Lynne, I think it's just someone's version of sarcasm/satire .
Similar to the logic of breitfartisans saying that when Jews are murdered, it's the fault of Jews. Alt reight theory is simple. Just remember: rich "liberal" Bad. rich "conservative" Good. Murdoch good. Gates bad. Koch good. Buffet bad. Roger Stone good. Soros bad. Murdoch good. Gore bad. Trump good. Clinton bad. Mercer good. Bloomberg bad. DeVos good.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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SLR,
Ok, distain is your message. That part of the conversation doesn’t require engagement.
I thought the ideas as issues about justice and principles of governance were worthy. It's not like the issues have been resolved politically, legally, or philosophically.
I think you misunderstand Rawls’ view, as well feminists’ view of social contract theories.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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I would bet you were pretty good at teaching business.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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I was amused by this.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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People choose to hate because sadly it gives them the feeling of power. & to a few, it gives real power.
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WBraun
climber
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I love to hate st00pid sh!t.
Muwhahahaha ......
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