Why do people choose hate?

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Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 27, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
I am always stunned by violence so I don't know why today's hate crime in Pittsburgh has affected me so much.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2018 - 01:01pm PT
Thanks, Tad, but my heart is seriously aching for this planet, and all the people in it that are affected by the hatred of others. I ask myself, "What can I do?" I try to live each "daily day" learning, caring and reaching out to the people whose paths I cross.

And the haters.....how consumed they must be with darkness. And I question again, "What can be done?"
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Oct 27, 2018 - 01:02pm PT
Not so much of a choice. It is learned. I hate the fact that I hate haters
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2018 - 01:13pm PT
You know, Jon, I agree somewhat with you, but every person makes choices. I have 3 grand kids that live with me. I've watched them for 7 years. They are taught what is right but sometimes choose wrong. I've also seen kids taught by drug user parents that chose to not be like them.

Moose, I don't think it is an innate quality in us....good or evil and that's what we will be....that's to much like predestination.

No, people make choices what to believe, who to hang with, how to live life. And thinking of the apathy of bystanders in WWII watching what was done to the Jews, well sometimes no choice (to do something) is a choice.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2018 - 01:25pm PT
Power Crux, don't understand.
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Oct 27, 2018 - 01:26pm PT
Fear.
Change.
Fear of change.
Some can't cope
and resort
to hate.
Internal or external.

Compassion is what
We need.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Oct 27, 2018 - 02:01pm PT
Americans have become entitled narcissistic brats. People think the world should accommodate their every whim. And when it doesn't, they pitch a fit. Even when everything is going their way, someone has it better... so they think it's okay to shame or demonize the more fortunate. Common courtesy is on the decline.

Past generations were much more focused on taking care of their own affairs and not obsessing about their neighbor or a political rally across the country. MYOB!
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Oct 27, 2018 - 02:13pm PT
Lynne,

Anger versus hate: some say anger is an emotion, while hate is more about belief.

Emotions arise for all sorts of reasons, but they tend to be short-lived. Moods provide longer-term subjective backdrops. Some say different environments can be described with moods. For example, NYC has a different mood to it then SF or Chicago. Attitudes are in the mix somewhere, also.

Paul Ekman says anger arises when one loses a sense of control that he or she thought they had. (See his book: Emotions Revealled.)

I’d suggest that beliefs are at the bottom of all of these things. There appear to be no right or wrong beliefs when one gets to looking closely at any of them. In one form or another, they appear to be illusions.

That might include your own emotional reactions to the hate you see around you. You’re locked in a box.

Be well, really.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2018 - 02:23pm PT
d-know, agree. But what if a person, woman or man, has been raised in a toxic atmosphere of hatred but their core speaks to them there is another way? What are the avenues they can pursue to bring change to their way of thinking, their life?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 27, 2018 - 02:32pm PT
Ok,this has nothing to do with Kelly’s poor history education and everything to do with a vengeful attack on civilians.

100% Hate crime.

I am from Pittsburgh,a neighborhood real close to that synagogue.

This has been going on for years, it happened in my neighborhood in Henrietta as a kid. https://www.nytimes.com/1970/11/07/archives/8th-blast-in-rochester-area-damages-a-third-synagogue.html

Our house was pelted with boards,others had windows knocked out,Dan Mcdevitt’s brother had his eardrum ruptured.

The reason this happens is hate. Nothing else,not reading about rallies or anything else.

I suggest you delete this thread before the blame and the hate are directed at you.

Peace to you L.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 27, 2018 - 02:35pm PT
It hard to determine exactly what the term "hating" or "hater" (the new term) means anymore. It could've once meant a particularly strong dislike for something or someone. Today the term has been conscripted to mean anything from racism to anti-LGBT thinking -- in other words, a politically-charged epithet designed to smear people you disagree with, or perhaps even hate.

If we use the term "hater" in the most general sense of course, at the end of the day we can only be referring to ourselves--since a case can be made that we all hate, are mysteriously capable of hatred, and return to it not occasionally but frequently.

Hatred is something that must be confronted for what we know about it: hating has been around since we founded our species. Hatred is not abnormal nor is it what anyone might want to start a snowflake career upon.

It must be recognized for the thing that it is by wary, intelligent adults who must understand it being part of deep-seated psychoneurological functions that hundreds of thousands of years of probable self-domestication has not seen fit to eradicate.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180215110041.htm

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2018 - 02:36pm PT
Robert L, I googled Demonic Male Hypothesis and learned a bit. After living a few years on this planet I realize men are some bit different than females so I can't put my brain inside a male. But I think that tho cultures change over the centuries, people can choose to do so also. We are not "predestined" to be a certain disposition. A person needs to develop an internal compass as they live and grow. The results of their actions will speak much to their mind and soul.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Oct 27, 2018 - 02:37pm PT
Americans have become entitled narcissistic brats. People think the world should accommodate their every whim. And when it doesn't, they pitch a fit. Even when everything is going their way, someone has it better... so they think it's okay to shame or demonize the more fortunate. Common courtesy is on the decline.

I agree with you. Wait. . . . . We are talking about trump, aren't we?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 27, 2018 - 02:48pm PT
A case can be made that we all hate

Not by those that detest it.


Normalization,unreal.

Rest In Peace to the victims of this tragedy.



Aeriq

Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
Oct 27, 2018 - 03:29pm PT
Hating is a hell of a lot easier than loving.

Loving takes work and is an active space.

Hate is easy and a reactive space.

Agree it is also a learned behavior.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2018 - 03:34pm PT
Thanks, Aeriq. Real words, defendable.

Please everyone, don't make this thread about President Trump. By now everyone knows where people stand on politics.

This is about how and why people hate so much they can kill people in their own neighborhood, how they take out hatred on people .... children, women and men they may have never met and decide to end their lives.

d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Oct 27, 2018 - 04:09pm PT
MisterE gets it.
Compassion takes
genuine courage,
Deep self examination, reflection.
Some do not like
what is seen.
Unconditional compassion
is even more difficult.

For myself I try a compassionate
approach to existence
in the hope that it
has a ripple effect.
Knowing that it
is not enough.

Try we must.
johntp

Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
Oct 27, 2018 - 04:42pm PT
I ask myself, "What can I do?" I try to live each "daily day" learning, caring and reaching out to the people whose paths I cross.

And the haters.....how consumed they must be with darkness. And I question again, "What can be done?"

Nothing. People do what they do. Hate is from ignorance and feeling hopeless. Can't change that. The world isn't fair. Some get the short straw, others, like most on this forum have been graced. Not everyone sees life through rose colored glasses.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2018 - 04:51pm PT
Power Crux, I...many of us....care about this whole world. I mentioned this in my second post on this thread.
Aeriq

Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
Oct 27, 2018 - 05:15pm PT
Thanks Lynn & d know - only adding that it seems loving is an elevated state of being that can create real, positive paradigm shifts and represents our higher state of awareness/consciousness: Buddha, Jesus Christ, Mother Teresa, and Gandhi come to mind.

Hate is a state of mind.

It is base and ravages the human spirit, but can also create paradigm shifts - as we are seeing again now in our culture.

Nothing redeeming in humanistic terms.

Great topic, Lynne! :)
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2018 - 05:32pm PT
Power Crux, I don't believe this Thread is weak sauce. If it was I would never have started it.

The fact this Thread is here is speaking up and facing hatred.

There are posts here that are kinda squishy, muddled, neither for nor against hatred. Asking why? How can one support hatred? What good does it work? Who does it help? Hate doesn't even work in behalf of those that hate.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 27, 2018 - 05:39pm PT
Fishing baters are rarely haters...
Aeriq

Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
Oct 27, 2018 - 05:48pm PT
Why do people choose fear, leading to hatred ?

Ignorance.

I disagree - there are intelligent people that choose hate to foment, as a social conduit to power.

That is not "ignorance" - but I do agree it is fear-based.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Oct 27, 2018 - 05:56pm PT
It starts with hate. Then we dehumanize (makes hate easier) Once dehumanized we can dispose of the object of hate with a clear conscience. Both individuals and governments take the same path, albeit different methods.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Oct 27, 2018 - 06:03pm PT
Who knows what motivates these whackos.

To me, the Pittsburgh shooter and the guy who mailed the bombs recently seem more like deranged lunatics than more-or-less rational people who hate that I think the OP is thinking of (Nazis, KKK, muslim fanatics who want to kill all the Jews, etc.)

Unfortunately these lunatics get guns or other weapons and cause a lot of damage, it's really hard to say how to stop them.
Aeriq

Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
Oct 27, 2018 - 06:06pm PT
Thanks, Eric.

Using hatred as a tool to make people tow the line in pursuit of power is a policy maneuver and somewhat different from an individual's bias.

I knew what you meant Jim - the Hater-in-Chief would be much less without it.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 27, 2018 - 06:06pm PT
There is a HUGE Elephant in this room and everyone here knows it.


These are not competent ,sane people committing these offenses,all they need is a little to set off.


Hence the Elephant.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Oct 27, 2018 - 06:34pm PT
These are not competent ,sane people committing these offenses,all they need is a little to set off.

I’m not sure I agree with that anymore. Certainly the “little to set off” but when I consider competence and sanity I’m not so sure they’re lacking in that in the way we used to think. My thoughts are that these folks have somehow embraced a “savior” or “hero” mindset and a set of values that has gone so far askew from mainstream values...and the current political rhetoric and climate incubate it.


Susan
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 27, 2018 - 06:40pm PT
Maybe Susan,I for one believe any one who would kill innocent folks with a gun is insane. Really

Regardless of their savior.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 27, 2018 - 06:45pm PT
Did I mention gutless as well.
ron gomez

Trad climber
Oct 27, 2018 - 06:56pm PT
Lynnie, my thoughts are...it takes far more EFFORT to hate. I try to ask for strength to forgive...it is easier to forgive and accept. Get on back here... you, me n Kelly need to share more food n wine. Great bottle the other night by the way. Thank you and Rodger!
Peace
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2018 - 07:02pm PT
Went for a hike with the youngun's. If you want to see life and clear your head it's a marvelous way to do it. Thank God for the outdoors and kiddos.

Lot's of posts which will stir my brain tonight. Thanks all. This is a serious, very serious topic.

Aeriq

Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
Oct 27, 2018 - 07:17pm PT
Hahaha Ron Gomez!

The shining beacon

who can't understand how

it is easy to hate.


This is the good stuff.
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 27, 2018 - 07:23pm PT
Pittsburgh guy is 46, has apparently had guns for a long time, has history of making a anti Semitic remarks.

Seems more like a fear crime than a hate crime.

What I'm wondering is what sparked him off.

The caption to Bowers' post read, "Why hello there HIAS! You like to bring in hostile invaders to dwell among us
Bale

Mountain climber
UT
Oct 27, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
Lynne, you remind me of my sister, kind and empathetic almost to a fault. The world could use more good people like you.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 27, 2018 - 07:47pm PT
I have to say,it is not a good feeling to feel like a Dick for condemning murders like this.

No need to post here again.
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2018 - 07:58pm PT
In the material world, hate is only an imperfect reflection of pure love .......
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Oct 27, 2018 - 08:06pm PT
johntp; Hate is from ignorance and feeling hopeless. 

I disagree. I’ve been in both places for years and never got to a state of hate. (“What a thing you make of me” is something I think Shakespeare said.)

Jon Beck: It starts with hate. Then we dehumanize (makes hate easier) Once dehumanized we can dispose of the object of hate with a clear conscience. 

Viktor Frankl said and proved it could be different. Dehumanization comes from savage times, I can tell you. People find ways to overcome their experiences, but it’s very challenging. We had a guy on a football team in high school we called, Baby Huey. (Know the comic book character? Big, dumb, and all heart.) After getting wounded three times one after the other, the Army gave him a free 30 day R&R. He went home to his wife and kid he hadn’t seen. He put the kid in scalding hot water to toughen it up. Sweet Jesus.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Oct 27, 2018 - 08:08pm PT
Duck: In the material world, hate is only an imperfect reflection of pure love .......

Socrates said that all men do what they think is right.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Oct 27, 2018 - 08:10pm PT
Tell the haters to go f$&@ themselves and have fun. God bless the USA!
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 27, 2018 - 08:10pm PT
The man accused of murdering at least 11 people at a Pittsburgh synagogue Saturday morning was a neo-Nazi who posted online about killing Jews—and raged at Donald Trump for being insufficiently anti-Semitic.

Robert Bowers, 46, of Pittsburgh had an account on Gab, a social media site beloved by the far-right. On Saturday morning, shortly before the shooting, Bowers posted an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory and what appeared to be a threat of violence.

“Screw your optics,” he wrote. “I’m going in.”

Shortly thereafter, around 10 a.m., he allegedly entered Pittsburgh’s Tree of Life synagogue during a crowded service and started shooting. Witnesses said he shouted, “all Jews must die” upon entering, according to multiple reports.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/robert-bowers-is-neo-nazi-who-posted-about-killing-jews-on-gab?ref=home
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 27, 2018 - 08:13pm PT


Slippery term

One guy's take on it

The ultimate operational definition?

when you dislike someone so much that if you and the other person were in an empty room with a knife in the middle, one or both would be dead
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 27, 2018 - 08:43pm PT
Why is there hate?

Poor white racist trash in America are angry about the changing demographics of America. They desire to return to a time of white supremacy. Trump is lending legitimacy to their mild-blowing ignorance and racist hate.

Racist hate has always been present in America. Racism has been openly practiced in the since the first slaves were brought here. The civil rights movement stomped on racism, but it never went away. Poor white racist trash are not the brightest folks to begin with, and now Trump is openly egging them on.

White supremacists have killed more people in America than attacks on American soil, Muslims, and left-wing radicals combined. Trump's white supremacist are the greatest threat to America than all of other enemies combined. They are the real enemies of the state.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 27, 2018 - 09:19pm PT

This is about how and why people hate so much they can kill people in their own neighborhood, how they take out hatred on people .... children, women and men they may have never met and decide to end their lives.

Every instance is different so to try and draw sweeping generalizations of human behavior from random acts is a fools errand. But our brains enjoy comfortable, recognizable patterns and so generalize we will.

Control what little you can control and dwell on today.

zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 27, 2018 - 09:38pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
jonnyrig

climber
Oct 27, 2018 - 09:56pm PT
Fake news.

But...
Hate the guns.
Hate the haters.
Hate the conservative right.
Hate the stupidity of those who disagree.
Most people are guilty of hate.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Oct 27, 2018 - 10:06pm PT
We receive stimuli —>

It is processed through our input filters, which evolve over time in response to our perceived experiences and beliefs —> this becomes the input we actually perceive

If the stimuli we perceive triggers our “fight or flight” response, we react in an automated robotic way without conscious thought. We each have a different pattern recognition library for fight or flight based on personal traumatic experiences. We each have a different fight/flight response based on what has been effective in dealing with our past traumas.

If it doesn’t trigger “fight or flight”, then we have the opportunity to apply conscious thought to associate meaning with the perceived stimuli, and a decision about how to respond. Our world view and environment and emotional/social needs and many factors shape what meaning we add to the perceived stimulii.

For people with anger/hatred issues, this last bit is where it is most easily regulated. But many people do not take responsibility for their own capacity to choose what meaning is added to the perceived stimuli. Many people are ignorant/unaware of their own emotional and thought processes. Other people are aware of their processes, but perceive them as fixed and immutable, not something they can or should invest time/energy in trying to change.

Then there are people who appear to have good ideals and add positive meaning to their perceived stimuli, but they are torpedoed by either their input filters that distort their perceptions before they can consider what meaning to add to it, or they are torpedoed by unresolved traumatic programming that causes their fight/flight response (amygdala) to activate before a rational response can be formulated.

This last bit is key to understanding how anger and hatred can be seen as a contagious disease, typically passed down from generation to generation within a family but also between any people in any variety of settings. The key point is that an “infected” angry/hateful person inflicts a trauma on another person, which causes hurt and triggers an automated response of anger and hatred in the other person. It cascades like dominos.

It takes exceptional forbearance, presence of mind, and emotional strength to break this cycle by rising above the pain and injustice of received hurt and not responding by spreading more anger and hatred. It requires understanding of the dynamic, willingness to revisit painful and traumatic experiences to reprogram our responses, and practice.


So to sum it all up in a short answer to the original question:

Hatred is a lazy and ignorant self-protecting response to a perceived hurt or injustice, however divorced from reality is that perception.

Some antidotes to anger and hatred:
 practice having balanced thoughts (rather than working ourselves up into a froth over perceived injustices), and beware of falling prey to one's own unmet expectations
 face our inner demons, heal old wounds, come to terms with guilt or shame or whatever hidden pain, so we have fewer emotional landmines waiting to be triggered
 practice soothing ourselves rather than lashing out when we are hurt
 seek to understand what caused the hurt in the person who is expressing anger or hatred toward us
 realize that they received it from someone else, and that other person from someone else, and the chain goes on ad infinitum...
 have compassion for ourselves and our own mistakes, and when we make the space to nurture ourselves, it increases our capacity to forgive and nurture others. This stops the transmission of the disease of anger and hatred.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 28, 2018 - 01:38am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Not "the haters, the deplorables", but "what do you need, how can I help you"... If I'm not part of the solution, I'm part of the problem...
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Oct 28, 2018 - 07:12am PT
The Pittsburgh Synagogue massacre was pure evil. My heart aches for the families and friends of the victims.

Hatred is a disease spread by small minded people clinging to arbitrary ideals.

Leave it to a fukwit like ET to turn a fatal hate crime into a Pud Boys anti-SJW rant... and something about the Megan Kelley reality show?

antichrist - see the hypocrisy?

Nearly all of the criticisms in this thread are against right leaning groups and individuals. Trump has been more divisive than anyone and rightly deserves to be criticized. They all deserve your criticisms. However, no one seems concerned about left leaning groups and individuals, who do their part to stoke the fires of hatred. Leading Democrats are encouraging hostility. Antifa frequently initiates violence. Seems like every week some Republican is chased out of a restaurant by angry protesters. These "liberals" get a pass. They may not be 50 percent of the problem, but they're major players.

Maybe... if you're interested in stemming the hate... focus on the haters on your side of the fence. You might be able to sway them.

Maybe you could sway people like antichrist, who sees himself as some kind of righteous hater.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 28, 2018 - 07:29am PT
Show us we’re they shot innocent people. Or sent bombs or ran over people.

SLR is right ,you on the other hand defend this crap.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 28, 2018 - 07:30am PT
Forbes-Terrorists inspired by Nationalist and Right Wing ideology have killed about 10 times as many people as Left Wing terrorists since 1992. Terrorists with unknown or other motivations were the least deadly. Islamists swamped them all.
Nice comments for the most part Ed and I know your a nice guy but do we have to keep doing this?

With this President and the sick fuks in Congress who rely on the hate vote, it's only going to get worse.

Liberals by nature are a non cohesive group and the their brand of extremism will lag far behind.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Oct 28, 2018 - 07:38am PT
It's one thing to feel hate (I certainly do, from time to time) and it's something else altogether to be totally consumed by it. Love and hate. Life and death. Two of the most profound dichotomies that people make.

In his later work, Freud began to doubt that his theory, based on the pleasure principle, could account for human behavior. He considered the possibility of "the operation of tendencies beyond the pleasure principle, that is, of tendencies more primitive than it and independent of it": the life instinct and the death drive. Even Freud had his doubts. He said: "To begin with it was only tentatively that I put forward the views I have developed here, but in the course of time they have gained such a hold upon me that I can no longer think in any other way". In the "New Introductory Lectures", he said: "You may perhaps shrug your shoulders and say: "That isn't natural science, it's Schopenhauer's philosophy!" But, ladies and gentlemen, why should not a bold thinker have guessed something that is afterwards confirmed by sober and painstaking detailed research?"; and: "what we are saying is not even genuine Schopenhauer....we are not overlooking the fact that there is life as well as death. We recognise two basic instincts and give each of them its own aim". In the end, he said: "The assumption of the existence of an instinct of death or destruction has met with resistance even in analytic circles".

BF Skinner might say it has to do with how our behavior is shaped, the environment of "negative" and "positive" reinforcements. Could it be that Freud and Skinner both have something to say about this?

I have been out mostly out of touch with psychology since I read Freud and Skinner as a philosophy student in undergraduate school 40+ years ago. From the "Mind" thread, I get the idea that one modern scientific psychological theory sees the human mind as a sort of computer, running on algorithms. While that might be a useful idea if you want to build a machine that plays a mean game of Chinese Go, I can't see how it can helps much with the kinds of human problems motivating your OP.

In short, I don't know the answer to your question, but I appreciate the sentiment.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 28, 2018 - 07:44am PT
The 'leadership' of this country has cajoled and implicitly condoned groups that are based on hatred of others for his own political & power advantage.

I find it extremely cynical that at a time when his power is being threatened by upcoming elections (due to recent events like the pipe bombing scare, and others), and effectively considers people like the perpetrator at Charlottesville to be 'good people', that he has suddenly made a full-throated condemnation of this violence in Pittsburgh. There should be no doubt in a rational mind that he is doing so primarily because he knows there is advantage for him in 'changing the channel', and pursuing the jewish vote.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 28, 2018 - 07:56am PT
"From the "Mind" thread, I get the idea that one modern scientific psychological theory sees the human mind as a sort of computer, running on algorithms. While that might be a useful idea if you want to build a machine that plays a mean game of Chinese Go, I can't see how it can helps much with the kinds of human problems motivating your OP."

C'mon, Yanqui, if a history professor*** could figure it out, then a math/philos type of your calibre oughta be able to.


*** Harari

...

NutAgain, how much meaning you think folks here will gather from your post when it's clear a good three quarters of them (edut: or more) fail to consider the issues from an evolutionary biological ecological perspective?*** - indeed, when they consider such a perspective irrelevant?

We're still largely an ol' time religious/theistic culture at base. Until that changes, from the L's to the WBs, we're fated to go around and around on these issues and related ones. All we can expect in the interim as many say is to muddle through.


*** as evidenced by the 80-plus posts so far.

...

Speaking of "useful"... A couple altruisms I've found useful: 1. Brick by brick. 2 Rome wasn't built in a day.


How many climber folk here even know what entropy is?
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Oct 28, 2018 - 07:56am PT
Maybe Susan,I for one believe any one who would kill innocent folks with a gun is insane

I used to feel that way, too. Now, I just don’t know anymore if a mass killer is insane.

I see it now more as a lack of conscience. Anger run amok and sanctioned by conspiracy leaders and well known and “respected” politicians. Stoking the flames of fear into a “call for action”...then saying “well that’s not what we really meant” when horrific acts take place. And with our current leadership the scab is pulled back on any restraint. Equally complicit are the once traditional politicians that stand beside him and say “oh gee, he’s just a ‘different’ kind of president”.

The complete and wholesale demonization of people with different views has been like a wildfire, with horrific results, and very few seem willing to connect the dots.

I have been feeling increasingly discouraged and at my age there’s little that will truly affect me over time, but I absolutely ache for my son and his generation.

Susan.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Oct 28, 2018 - 07:57am PT
Forbes-Terrorists inspired by Nationalist and Right Wing ideology have killed about 10 times as many people as Left Wing terrorists since 1992. Terrorists with unknown or other motivations were the least deadly. Islamists swamped them all.

From the same story:

Left Wing terrorists killed only 23 people in terrorist attacks during this time, about 0.7% of the total number of murders, but 13 since the beginning of 2016. Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists have only killed five since then, including Charlottesville.

Maybe, part of the problem is "liberals" unwillingness to recognize everyone contributing to the problem.

-----------


wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,

Oct 28, 2018 - 07:29am PT
Show us we’re they shot innocent people. Or sent bombs or ran over people.

SLR is right ,you on the other hand defend this crap.

How about mailing ricin to Trump, Defense Secretary James Mattis, chief of naval operations Adm. John Richardson, FBI Director Chris Wray, CIA Director Gina Haspel and Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 28, 2018 - 08:11am PT
However, no one seems concerned about left leaning groups and individuals, who do their part to stoke the fires of hatred. Leading Democrats are encouraging hostility.

This is the typical false equivalency bullshit that the right-wingers use to divert attention from their heinous acts.

EdwardT, let me try to explain this to you in terms simple enough for a right-winger to understand.

If the Nazis were trying to take over, we would take whatever actions were necessary to defeat such a vile enemy. People like EdwardT would say the defenders of freedom were stroking the fires of hostility.

Bullsh#t. We are defending our society from right-wing fascists and racists. We are not stroking the fires.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Oct 28, 2018 - 08:14am PT
NO ONE is dismissing liberal contributions ed

were talking about triage and how to best allocate limited resources

given what we knows is common sense that your just a f*#ker standing in the road telling the fire truck to slow down and make the stops...

Triage and how to best allocate limited resources? Really?

Is this forum a special FBI anti-terrorism task force?

---------------------------------------------


This is the typical false equivalency bullshit that the right-wingers use to divert attention from their heinous acts.

EdwardT, let me try to explain this to you in terms simple enough for a right-winger to understand.

If the Nazis were trying to take over, we would take whatever actions were necessary to defeat such a vile enemy. People like EdwardT would say the defenders of freedom were stroking the fires of hostility.

Bullsh#t. We are defending our society from right-wing fascists and racists. We are not stroking the fires.

I thought liberals were supposed to be open-minded.

And what's with your fascination with "stroking" fires?
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Oct 28, 2018 - 08:21am PT
A thread to discuss hate has generated it.

Yeah, great.
ron gomez

Trad climber
Oct 28, 2018 - 08:31am PT
Eric, Boy do I get how easy it is to hate! So much of it going around. I pray everyday to help me be kind, forgiving, not to try and judge. Works sometime, but I have found people that HOLD hate, waste a lot of energy focusing on that hate. It’s easier once you get it, to sometimes just blow it off and not let the anger or hate eat you up. Had a great talk this past summer with Kauk about this subject!
Peace
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Oct 28, 2018 - 08:35am PT
Lynne: now that I've read through some of the answers more carefully, I wanted to add I think NutAgain! and Marlow (and others) might be on the right track when they suggest that the best answer to your question lies in the kinds of techniques that people do or do not apply.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 28, 2018 - 09:05am PT
A friend , who when young , was given a job at GPIW and mentored on climbing by Yvon himself , now spends most of his spare time on-line reading anti-semitic web sites...He doesn't climb or do much of anything other than hating on other races...My friend is a good example of someone focusing on hate 24-7 and becoming consumed by the hate...What a way to spend your life...
WBraun

climber
Oct 28, 2018 - 09:10am PT
Just see all the haters here who hate (hate) ...... LOL
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 28, 2018 - 09:11am PT


Also Barack Obama knows what Nelson Mandela knew...
[Click to View YouTube Video]

But the situation in America right now is more difficult than it was in the apartheid regime in South Africa back then...

Hillary Clinton didn't understand...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 28, 2018 - 12:01pm PT
I thought liberals were supposed to be open-minded.

Perhaps you didn't hear about the time back in the 1940s when liberals were killing the f*#k out of fascists?
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Oct 28, 2018 - 12:05pm PT
Only because we had to.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 28, 2018 - 01:19pm PT
I would guess tribalism often plays a role. Thousands of years ago tribes would compete for the same scarce resources. It would be advantageous to be able to dehumanize the other tribe and be ruthless to ensure your tribe would survive. In the modern world of course it’s terrible but underlying innate behaviors may be partly to blame.

I read a good article recently about how many on the right are willing to believe the worst lies and conspiracy theories about the left and the dems because they can then justify the poor behaviors of Trump and those on the right, because they believe the other guys are worse. Add: many on the left do it as well, but as someone who considers himself philosophically a centrist I see it way more often on the right. There’s a large industry on the right geared towards it.
WBraun

climber
Oct 28, 2018 - 02:37pm PT
Then there are the hell-bound a$$ clowns who make money off fomenting hate in society. F*ck those people, right in the face...

Just see ..... more hate by those who hate (hate) .... LOL

There's no escape, you people are fools ......
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 28, 2018 - 05:16pm PT
Hate is easy, Love is hard.

Hate requires no introspection or accountability.

Hate believes in winners and losers.

Hate blames everyone else.

Hate is selfish.

Hate feeds the ego.

Hate is how tRump is making America great.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 28, 2018 - 05:18pm PT
Lynne, you are one of those delightful people who always see the good in people...unfortunately, the good in some people is present in quantities hard to discern.
Rudder

Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Oct 28, 2018 - 06:24pm PT
Most harm is caused by people who were not loved nor wanted, and are in a lot of psychological pain. Everything else is scenery. It's really that simple.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Oct 28, 2018 - 11:34pm PT
Written a month ago. Speaks about propaganda by right wing nuts and trumpeters. "This false narrative of leftist terrorism that would justify right-wing violence is now in place. The parallels with previous authoritarian movements are frightening. The lesson is that the lies and those who sell them must be opposed, before it is too late."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/09/28/right-wing-warnings-pose-far-more-danger-america-than-left-wing-violence/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.722c8b1763df

Just a couple days ago the right wing kook fantasy of the day drummed up a fake tale that the mail bombs were a "false flag." Someone I know on facebook and many of his fanatic friends immediately spouted the same nonsense. It's amazing how this BS spreads quickly across the whole alt-right media (trumpy's only source of information).
Trump

climber
Oct 29, 2018 - 08:55am PT
I think it’s got a lot to do with the stuff that goes on inside our heads, and the stuff that goes on outside our heads that affects the stuff that goes on inside our heads.

That stuff doesn’t always work the way we think it works, or the way we would prefer to think it works in ourselves.

So maybe after being exposed to human violence and hatred over a long period of time, we choose to still be stunned by it, rather than having learned to understand it, or expect it.

And maybe we choose to reject a belief in the determinism of human beliefs and behaviors because we just don’t like the idea, and prefer to believe in our own righteousness for our own righteous actions, and prefer to blame other people for their conditions and behaviors and beliefs in contrast to ours. Maybe we’re even socially driven to post about that contrast and inform other people of the righteousness of our own behaviors.

I think we develop those kinds of beliefs and behaviors because doing so is advantageous to us, and that believing those things is probably the best thing we can do, whether those beliefs are true or not.

But for other people, they do it slightly differently - the end product of their advantageous beliefs and behaviors looks a little different than yours, or mine (for similar reasons and ways to those that many folks in this thread have described). Maybe it’s driven by conditions or environment or some innate characteristic in the person(s) (or more likely the interaction between those two things), where those things are slightly different for all of us, but where there are some commonalities that we might be able to understand.

Why? Man that’s a big question, and I admire an honest effort to understand the answer in a way that doesn’t just confirm our own righteousness at other people’s expense, and might just lead us to beliefs about ourselves that we’d prefer not to believe.

For me, I spend a fair amount of time trying to just pay attention to the how, and am grateful (maybe like you?) that someone else is managing the why.

the good in some people is present in quantities hard to discern.

I’d respectfully disagree. If we’re looking for a problem, I’d say the problem is not about the quantity of good in other people, the problem is in our me-centric ways of defining and (not) discerning what’s good in other people.

TFPU!
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 29, 2018 - 11:08am PT
It is a difficult time for Americans, when the president has openly attended & addressed meetings of a "Hate Group."

From Newsweek 10/12/2017

Donald Trump To Speak At Hate Group's Annual Event, A First For A President

President Donald Trump will be the first sitting president to address the Family Research Council’s Values Voter Summit, which the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) described as a “rogues' gallery of the radical right.”
Trump will be the keynote speaker at Friday's event, which will also be attended by his former strategist, Steve Bannon. Other speakers include the founder of anti-Islam group ACT for America and former Trump strategist, Sebastian Gorka
.
The anti-LGBTQ Family Research Council, labeled as a hate group by the SPLC, has hosted its annual summit since its inception in 2006.
"Values voters have waited eight years for a leader who puts America's mission first and respects the values that made America into a great nation,” the council's president Tony Perkins said in a statement reported by The Hill.

“Values voters are coming to our nation’s capital thankful to hear from a president who is fulfilling the promises that he campaigned on. Since the early days of the campaign, President Trump allied himself with values voters, promising to put an end to the eight years of relentless assault on the First Amendment,” he added.

No other sitting president has ever taken the decision to address the summit, although Trump has spoken before the conference on three previous occasions—even during his presidential election campaign.

Speaking of the president’s decision to attend this year’s 12th annual event, SPLC President Richard Cohen told The Independent: “By appearing at the Values Voter Summit, President Trump is lending the legitimacy of his office to a hate group that relentlessly demonizes LGBTQ people and works to deny them of their equal rights.”

"His appearance puts the lie to his campaign promise to be a friend to the LGBTQ community. Bigotry is not an American value, and our president should speak out against it,” he added.

Trump’s attacks on the LGBTQ community have not gone unnoticed, with the president rescinding Obama-era protection for transgender students that allow them to use the bathroom that matches the gender they identify with. Trump also suggested a ban on transgender troops in the military, and failed to recognize Pride Month or National Coming Out Day, unlike his predecessor.

The group organizing the summit has previously commented on homosexuality. “Family Research Council believes that homosexual conduct is harmful to the persons who engage in it and to society at large, and can never be affirmed. It is by definition unnatural, and as such is associated with negative physical and psychological health effects.”

It is not clear what topic Trump will address during his speech, but the group’s overwhelmingly negative attitude towards the LGBTQ community has prompted questions about whether a president should be attending a day of glorified hate speech.

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-speak-anti-lgbt-hate-groups-annual-event-first-president-683927?fbclid=IwAR0zkYDGTNfFk_C1a2EXA0k3t_uyXvZMYwBlAYHx-4tqm10LVERm8hSd0Eg
Lituya

Mountain climber
Oct 29, 2018 - 11:36am PT
xCon, you regularly say things like the copy/paste below from another thread, so I don't think you're a good rep for peace & love. Maybe you should just sit this one out?

@xCon say:
your not going to be given another chance to 'settle' your recidivists case
the smart money is on 'no mercy'
the few of your kind who survive will be scatters so far to the wind that by the time any make it back we will have so much free sh#t for everyone
any fight you've left in ya will sputter and die
and if there any downside to wiping you f*#kers out
we will live with it...
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Oct 29, 2018 - 12:12pm PT
last time I checked xcon was not running for president
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Oct 29, 2018 - 12:52pm PT
Very informative post above by XCon summarizing right wing violent extremists.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2018 - 01:44pm PT
Kinda pathetic and more than a bit boring that most topics for debate here on ST end up being political. Most everyone gets it. No need for the constant repetition. Jess' saying.....unless something new can be shared.
Aeriq

Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
Oct 29, 2018 - 02:07pm PT
To find out a bit more about our natural-born tendencies, it's

Multiple Choice Question Time!

Q: When a human baby is birthed, he/she is immediately drawn to:

1. Sweet, sweet mother's milk
2. Hate
3. Love
4. Isolation
5. Physical contact

Pick any 3...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 29, 2018 - 04:02pm PT
Yes it is pathetic,damn near as bad as the cop fighting for his life in UPMC.


Boring yes,Lynne, I do not know you,nor do I mean any disrespect, but,what did you really think would happen with this thread?

I do not hate much ,but, I hate this thread.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2018 - 04:45pm PT
wilbeer, I'm unsure what you are saying? Of course my heart and prayers are with the policeman fighting for his life as well as any and all who have been touched by violence.

What I was trying to say....instead of taking on this Thread topic and creating good discourse many here are just repeating the same old political diatribes of the past 2 years. I don't know you either, but that doesn't mean we can't share ideas and respect each other.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 29, 2018 - 05:01pm PT
I am just pointing out this is continuing,whilst this has become a platform.

A platform not deserving.

I would still like to know what you think would have happened,you know this crew better than me.

I really do not think it helps anything,really.


And I am all in on sharing good ideas. Peace,really
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2018 - 07:31pm PT
https://www.facebook.com/dijon.walker/videos/10213518037490710/UzpfSTExNzgxMTI0MDU6MTAyMTc0OTk0MTcyMTU0OTA/

Could be considered corny....but I've seen it happen. Caring makes a difference and any human can care. You don't have to be famous or gifted or a talented athlete. Just see what's happening in your hood and make a difference.

Hope the link works, I'm not gifted in this arena. Cheers.

Reminds me of what Timmy O'Neill would do! Love his Non Profit. Inspired my Grandson.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 29, 2018 - 07:45pm PT
The Third Reich used hateful speech as a stepping stone to hateful action that stunned the world with it's barbarity. Trump is following a similar path by arousing a small but dedicated group of followers, don't underestimate the possibilities.....history is full of instances where people did.
Aeriq

Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
Oct 29, 2018 - 07:45pm PT
A winner AND a perv?

Classic ST.


Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 29, 2018 - 08:04pm PT
Lynne: I appreciate we are not on the same boat with our thoughts, but it is very tough for me to ignore how President Trump has driven hate to new higher levels in our beloved America.

Please vote against Trump & his candidates in the election, if you would enjoy lowering the smount of hate in our nation.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2018 - 08:16pm PT
Fritz, we need to think out of the box. Forget the rhetoric. Everyone knows about voting. We are all adults and as individuals we can figure out what to do.

This thread is about the terrible results of hate, which is not linked to any one political party. It's about who we are as individuals and how we handle the differences in each other and our world.

And thanks for your post and everyone else's on this thread. If we communicate, even at skewed levels, at least we can connect and share ideas, keeping our minds open to other ideas and learn, even if we don't agree with each other all the time, we can learn and consider what we learn.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 29, 2018 - 08:16pm PT
I’d like to say the United States was built on equality and respect for human dignity, but I think hatred and prejudice are American values too.

Hate has always been present but recently it’s been unleashed. Our president and other elected leaders have been playing with fire.
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 29, 2018 - 08:24pm PT


"A choice not an echo"

I think not, hating is stoked by agenda driven miscreants, and therefore more an echo than a choice.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 29, 2018 - 08:26pm PT
Yes Lynne, what you say reminds me of Trump’s assertion after Charlottesville that both sides were to blame. The matter of degree is important, you can’t equate things without considering that. There is a political component here, brought to your doorstep by Trump...it can’t be ignored.
Trump

climber
Oct 29, 2018 - 08:29pm PT
https://www.livescience.com/56306-primates-including-humans-are-the-most-violent-animals.html

Primates, including humans, are the most violent animals. Human rates of conspecific violence are consistent with rates of conspecific violence in other primates.

That and mother’s milk, and our increasingly virulent tribally partisan politics to spice it up, prolly. This sh#t’s been around a lot longer than the US’s foundations in slavery, or Trump, has, but he’s definitely not helping, and we might be well served to take off our rose-colored glasses when looking in the mirror, if what we honestly do want is to understand.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2018 - 08:33pm PT
Jim, together we are more than one man.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 29, 2018 - 08:39pm PT
Don’t underestimate the power of a demagogue...history is littered with people who did. Hopefully, on 11/6 people who don’t hate will speak loud and clearly.

Lynne, what frightens me today about America is that 40 plus % of the people approve of a man who uses hate as his primary political tool. He is an abomination and yes, you are correct, it is not just about one man...it’s more about the people who buy his message of hate.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2018 - 09:00pm PT
I'm re reading Michener's book about Poland. It gives me much pause to think. My fault may be that I think people can meet together and forge out their differences.

What I may have not considered is the strong desire/need for domination by some. It's tough, really tough living on this planet/imperfect world that it is.

My bottom line as you all know is .... my best friend, jesus. I know many are put off by this. But I live by his words as they are ones of hope and peace, not domination, terror and fear.

Night and pleasant dreams.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2018 - 09:13pm PT
https://www.facebook.com/aplusapp/videos/1946239215447005/UzpfSTEyNzk3NDk5Mjk6MTAyMTM0NzEzMjc5MTkxNjM/

This just now came up and gives an idea of what I'm trying to express here. Wow, Lady Gaga and I on the same page. Smiles.
WBraun

climber
Oct 29, 2018 - 09:23pm PT
You people are such hypocrites.

You slaughter and create so much violence against other living entities in your mechanized slaughterhouses and then ...

preach your phony kindness .......
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2018 - 09:27pm PT
You People....who would they be Werner?

x-con one cannot be tolerant without limit.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Oct 29, 2018 - 09:53pm PT
Get off of your smug, emotional asses and vote for candidates that are willing to change this obvious movement towards totalitarianism.

Jim, is this really what you meant to say? (Cuz if it is, then I agree.)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 29, 2018 - 09:59pm PT
It’s quite a stretch to assume that anybody chooses anything.
99.99% of people are just pinballs.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Oct 30, 2018 - 04:09am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Only .01% are bumpers?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 30, 2018 - 05:07am PT
Brennan is totally correct
Gunkie

Trad climber
Valles Marineris
Oct 30, 2018 - 05:36am PT
Insecurity & Fear

Insecurity with their beliefs

Insecurity with their skills

Insecurity with their accomplishments

Fear of the unknown

Fear of 'the other'

Fear of their own insecurities
jonnyrig

climber
Oct 30, 2018 - 06:56am PT
I'm tired of the hatred.

It's one of the reasons I don't post much around here anymore. Anyone got a mirror?
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2018 - 07:17am PT
Brennan is totally correct


Yep.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Oct 30, 2018 - 07:30am PT
Insecurity & Fear

Dominant aspects of all the politically tainted threads.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 30, 2018 - 10:49am PT
Common courtesy is on the decline.

I'm not sure I entirely agree.

I'm disabled at this point, and have to use a cane to walk(used to be a wheelchair) I'm always impressed by how many people hold doors for me, let me go first through a door, etc. Very courteous. Seems to apply to any race, although I do see a difference with age (less courtesy with teens, increases with age----I put down to general awareness of whats going on around them, as opposed to a decision)
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2018 - 11:47am PT
Great to hear from you Ken. Hope to hear more from you in the days ahead.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 30, 2018 - 02:18pm PT
I'm disabled at this point, and have to use a cane to walk(used to be a wheelchair) I'm always impressed by how many people hold doors for me, let me go first through a door, etc. Very courteous. Seems to apply to any race, although I do see a difference with age (less courtesy with teens, increases with age----I put down to general awareness of whats going on around them, as opposed to a decision)


I am routinely seeing Trump supporters parking in handicapped spots without a handicap permit - even though other open parking spots are available 5 feet away.

A trump supporter in a pickup truck sped past a school bus with flashing red lights and killed several children.

Trump supporters are selfish bastards.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2018 - 02:52pm PT
Choice......do you realize when you constantly use the name Trump you are choosing to keep the name front and center. What if.....no one reacted, spoke it? What if you all began to talk about the names of those you want to be elected and why? What if......?

And what if you actually respected the Thread Topics?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 30, 2018 - 03:20pm PT
Is it okay for me to hate mosquito's?

How about bad architecture? I don't hate the architects, they deserve pity.

I haven't found it in me to hate people, although I do get pretty pissed sometimes. Do I hate the 911 hijackers or the Vegas shooter? I don't know, although I sure as hell would if my wife was on one of those planes or killed by the shooter.

I guess sometimes it's about how hard we're pushed.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 30, 2018 - 03:52pm PT
People who are quick to lose their temper are more likely to overestimate their own intelligence, a new study from The University of Western Australia and the University of Warsaw in Poland has found.

The investigation examined the role of trait-anger (people who get angry as a disposition) in the overestimation of cognitive ability in undergraduates from Warsaw, Poland.
johntp

Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
Oct 30, 2018 - 04:34pm PT
I'll throw a flip side of the coin. Some here choose caring and compassion. Many on this forum would (and have) spent time and $$ to help each other.

The human race has many foibles. Some people are good, some are not good. My thought is that most just want a comfortable life and be surrounded by friends and loved ones.

To place focus on hate is a one sided process. On this forum alone we have seen quite a bit of giving.

I'd rather focus on the good I see in the world. Do really bad things happen? Yes. Evil people need to be called and dealt with.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 30, 2018 - 06:00pm PT
which makes the REAL problem the masses who keep walking away from that responsibility of theirs...

A therapist is talking with a guy who got in trouble a few times for fighting.


“So, do you enjoy beating the crap out of people?”

“No, not really.”

“Tell me about this last one. Why did you assault him?”

“He was an a**hole. He deserved it, he punched my buddy for no good reason.”

“There are lot’s of a**holes in the world. Most people don’t go around beating them up.”

“Right. Why do you think there are so many then?”
Trump

climber
Oct 30, 2018 - 06:15pm PT
Sierra Ledge Rat - Baader-Meinhoff phenomenon, possibly. What seems to us to be our balanced objective way of perceiving reality is actually a system that’s been honed by 4 billion years of survival of (me) the fittest.

Not saying that there aren’t selfish bastards in the world, just that who we notice as being a selfish bastard might not be totally unbiased by our me-centric ways of thinking. We’re definitely not apt to see one in the mirror, regardless of how self-interested our own thinking processes are.

Actually, not seeing one in the mirror is probably one of our most valuable self-interested thinking processes, and it maybe shouldn’t surprise us that other people are so good at it too.

If you want to do a more objective experiment, go through all of the supertopo posts and see how many people are criticizing themselves or their own tribe, versus how many people are criticizing other people or other tribes. I expect we all already know what we’ll find.

Selfish bastards? Hatred? Most violent animal? Ok, fair enough. But there’s also more to us than that.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 30, 2018 - 06:35pm PT
Baader-Meinhoff phenomenon, possibly

Nope

Trump people are arrogant, racist, selfish bastards
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 30, 2018 - 06:42pm PT
Whether you are just a troll or not.

Just by pointing out the hypocracy,or so you call it , you are proving SLR right.

Ffsakes people were gunned down.

Here you are rationalizing,in effect normalizing that this is what humanity is and was.

What you may have seen today,if any of you effen care,was a city that did not want the dear divider coming to their town.

See what this breeds.

Read some history.

Standing up to fascism,bigotry is NOT hating,it is our duty,as it was my fathers in WWII.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 30, 2018 - 06:54pm PT
This is what I mean about a platform.

You believe who you want to.

And, I asked that you delete this thread once,you have given everyone including me ample time to discuss this,now is time to shut it down. If not for anything but the respect of Pittsburgh and it’s terrorized populace.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 30, 2018 - 07:10pm PT
Right on Wilbeer! You go man!
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Oct 30, 2018 - 07:17pm PT
Lynne - what you're trying to do is admirable. And I respect how you've handled yourself in this thread.

Unfortunately, some people prefer to wallow in their hatred. The bathe in it. And they seem to think sharing that hatred... imposing it on others... somehow makes a difference.

I'm all for standing up for what you believe is right. But I also think you do so in an effective manner.

In the end, you just gotta live with integrity and not get bogged down in needless drama.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 30, 2018 - 07:22pm PT
Drama is getting killed when you are at your place of worship.
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 30, 2018 - 08:10pm PT
How many people were not gunned down or harmed in any way on that day while worshipping? Not including of course worshipping false idols.

The hate mongerers are not doing that well in frothing up the masses, YET


You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone.


Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2018 - 08:25pm PT
Not many fems left here on The Taco and sharing ideas with some testosterone's here can be a trip at times.

However, it has been important throughout the ages to be able to speak and share ideas, though admittedly the sharing of ideas at times has not been pretty. (Like here and now...jezz, can't you debate with grace?) But thank God the advancement of ideas do seem to eventually make progress. I hail Dred Scott for his persistence and am glad he had 9 months of freedom before he died.

I remain firm in the belief that if we could put aside our prejudices and be willing to listen to parties from diverse groups and find common ground with give and take, we could reach a place that would allow us as individuals, a country and a world to move forward.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 30, 2018 - 08:31pm PT
I get it now.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 30, 2018 - 08:33pm PT
Edward T... The T stands Testosterone..
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 30, 2018 - 08:33pm PT
Do the math. Moron


There is no comparability in the instances you bring up!
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 30, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
Of course, whatever you think about the current happenings in America, if you want change, please vote.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 30, 2018 - 09:44pm PT
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2799082660118059&id=1143693378990337
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 31, 2018 - 04:18am PT
I remain firm in the belief that if we could put aside our prejudices and be willing to listen to parties from diverse groups and find common ground with give and take, we could reach a place that would allow us as individuals, a country and a world to move forward.
Excellent point!!

I listened carefully. And watched the actions of Trump and his people.

That's how I know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that we are dealing with fanatical white supremacists, racists, fascists, Nazis, ignorant fools, and even the anti Christ himself.

Zero tolerance for Trump and his people in my country.
Zero. None. Nada.
No compromise.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Oct 31, 2018 - 06:07am PT
Excellent point!!

I listened carefully. And watched the actions of Trump and his people.

That's how I know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that we are dealing with fanatical white supremacists, racists, fascists, Nazis, ignorant fools, and even the anti Christ himself.

Zero tolerance for Trump and his people in my country.
Zero. None. Nada.
No compromise.

^The crux of the problem.^

Trump won the white vote by just about every metric. Men, women, college graduates, income over 50K. So, what you're saying is most white Americans are scum. Most educated, productive Americans are scum.

Zero tolerance?

Sad.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 31, 2018 - 06:20am PT

Conveniently left out,of every metric.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 31, 2018 - 06:55am PT
President trump is now talking about ending birthright citizenship.

Why?

To appeal to the cruelty and bigotry of his base.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Oct 31, 2018 - 07:02am PT
President trump is now talking about ending birthright citizenship.

Why?

To appeal to the cruelty and bigotry of his base.

Which other industrialized nations have unconditional birthright citizenship for persons born in the country?


AntiChrist
Gym climber
Urth

Oct 31, 2018 - 06:55am PT
Jesus EdT, you desperately need to move past the grade school math and easy talking points your handlers spoon feed you and start learning how read numbers all by your big self.

The numbers aren't complicated, like your convoluted thinking.
WBraun

climber
Oct 31, 2018 - 07:58am PT
Nope .... it was election rigging and it wasn't Russia.

Why do think there is such a massive smear campaign against Putin so the real culprits can hide under.

Check out who really runs the election machines.

You won't do it since you're too lazy, too st00pid and it WILL take a lot of time to dig thru ....

mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Oct 31, 2018 - 08:14am PT

Which other industrialized nations have unconditional birthright citizenship for persons born in the country?

Totally irrelevant. We have a different history.

Which other industrialized nations have a Second Amendment?

monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 31, 2018 - 08:18am PT
Canada is a birthright country.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 31, 2018 - 08:24am PT
QT Why do peope choose hate?
ANS 7 of 9: because their religious indoctrination and ideology incite them to?

"Salman Taseer is a blasphemer and this is the punishment for a blasphemer,"



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-12111831
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Oct 31, 2018 - 08:37am PT
Maybe Trump's endgame is to have this issue decided by The Supreme Court of The United States.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Oct 31, 2018 - 09:16am PT
Xcon: . . . the REAL problem the masses who keep walking away from that responsibility of theirs...

Show me where I signed up for assuming responsibility for others. You can’t be a liberal. Liberals believe in freedom first and foremost, I was told. Assuming and taking (insinuating?) responsibility for others seems more a conservative principle to me.

Ksolem,

(Have you been watching “Mr. In-Between?”)



I taught in business schools for too many years, and leadership (a vague idea) was always a part of it. For me in my discipline, there are many moving parts (7S’s: style, structure, staff, strategy, systems, skills, shared values).

I admit that leadership can be a powerful influence on organizational life, but I have rarely seen any leader significantly move an organization by him or herself alone. Culture (also a vague idea) is *the* most influential variable and trumps strategy each and every time. Want to experience the full power of culture? Try going against a culture’s values and beliefs. You will trigger the corporate immune system, and it will get you.

I appreciate all of the focus on Mr. Trump, but I can’t see how any one person in any organization can be the cause of the most important effects. The most effective leaders have been those whose skills are right for the organization and the times—and those times change in time. Organizations appear to be in causal feedback loops with their environments.

Sure, hate Trump. You might be missing a bigger picture, imo.

I think Lynne’s efforts here are to be commended. (Wasn’t it Churchill that said, 'Meeting jaw to jaw is better than war?’)
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 31, 2018 - 09:35am PT
Show me where I signed up for assuming responsibility for others.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many right-wing "patriots" are incredibly ignorant of the history of the country that they profess to love and cherish so deeply.

I could try to offer some insight to the ignoramus who made this statement, and direct him to the writings of people like Thomas Jefferson, and the founding principles of our government, but in my experience these right-wingers are too dumb to be educated, or they adamantly cover their eyes and ears when facts are presented to them.

But I'll make a standing offer to any right-wing ignoramus: if you really want to learn about the country you understand so little about, then send me a message and I will gladly have an adult conversation with you.
ExfifteenExfifteen

climber
Oct 31, 2018 - 11:07am PT
SLR:
It never ceases to amaze me how so many right-wing "patriots" are incredibly ignorant of the history of the country that they profess to love and cherish so deeply.

I could try to offer some insight to the ignoramus who made this statement, and direct him to the writings of people like Thomas Jefferson, and the founding principles of our government, but in my experience these right-wingers are too dumb to be educated, or they adamantly cover their eyes and ears when facts are presented to them.

But I'll make a standing offer to any right-wing ignoramus: if you really want to learn about the country you understand so little about, then send me a message and I will gladly have an adult conversation with you.

Whew, that prolly made you feel real good typing that out ledge rat. A toast to your musings...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 31, 2018 - 03:52pm PT
Way to go Harry!

And since we are quoting Churchill,”The price of greatness is responsibility”.

Ironic,aye.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 31, 2018 - 04:00pm PT
Oops Wilbeer. I'm sorry to mention that in pc world, you can't quote Winston Churchill, since he was racist.

It's OK with me though, since he may have saved the world from Adolph Hitler in WWII, & fuk the pc people.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 31, 2018 - 04:14pm PT
Makes it more ironic.


Reading that above and knowing SLR, totally agree.

He Is a Veteran.

And a Doctor.
fragglerockjoe

Trad climber
space-man from outer space
Oct 31, 2018 - 05:11pm PT
YES and it is all part of Werner's narcissistic plan to rule the world Ha Ha Haaa !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Oct 31, 2018 - 05:49pm PT
it is all part of Werner's narcissistic plan to rule the world

Werner thinks we screwed it up. He doesn't want it anymore.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2018 - 06:05pm PT
Putting hate aside, there are so many options for each of us to create positive.....starting with our own personal lives and moving thru the ladder of friends, people we work with, groups we interact with (ST :) ) and more.

We can choose to make a difference in this world. Hate won't make it happen. But we have so many more options available to us in this "enlightened period" of history.

So whose the first to list some of these hateless options that could have a super positive impact in our lives, in the lives of who we live with and where we live, in this country and then the entire world?

I'll start with the home front:

+ When you get home from work relax with your significant other. Don't demand, ask questions etc. Just admire the sunset together

+ Never discuss anything serious after 4 pm.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 1, 2018 - 02:50am PT
https://www.facebook.com/NowThisOpinions/videos/2157756140922531/

Demonize 'em, treat 'em like dirt.

Or get to know their stories.

Don't listen to Trumpler.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 1, 2018 - 05:55am PT
One party is embracing conspiracy theories promoting hatred of Jews and immigrants. One. The Republican Party must be destroyed.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 1, 2018 - 06:19am PT
To promote a happy space in our mind; discussions of the dismantling of our institutions, the assault on the free press, the conspiracy to eliminate entitlements, the self dealing by government officials, the neutering of regulations on big businesses and the collaboration with foreign dictators by our President should only be discussed prior to 4pm.

Sleep well folks...
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Nov 1, 2018 - 07:36am PT
SLR: I could try to offer some insight to the ignoramus who made this statement, . . . .

By all means, do. It would be refreshing to express ideas rather than feelings around here.

Assuming that I’m a right-wing patriot is foolish and ignorant. You don’t know me.

I’ve read a great many people, to include some of the founding fathers. Can you talk to political ideas rather than the heart on your sleeve?

Wilbeer,

Just because a person is a veteran doesn’t mean sh*t. Nor a doctor. (Got one of each. So what?)


May god save us from those who would save us from ourselves.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 1, 2018 - 08:09am PT
It never ceases to amaze me how so many right-wing "patriots" are incredibly ignorant of the history of the country that they profess to love and cherish so deeply.

I could try to offer some insight to the ignoramus who made this statement, and direct him to the writings of people like Thomas Jefferson, and the founding principles of our government, but in my experience these right-wingers are too dumb to be educated, or they adamantly cover their eyes and ears when facts are presented to them.

But I'll make a standing offer to any right-wing ignoramus: if you really want to learn about the country you understand so little about, then send me a message and I will gladly have an adult conversation with you.

+1
It never ceases to amaze me that conservatives only like certain parts of the constitution.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Nov 1, 2018 - 09:14am PT
*
Lynne, please listen to this former Republican strategist who promoted Sarah palin in the 2008 election. You may not want to equate politics with hate or see the connection but I believe this speaker makes it very clear what we are dealing with.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Trump

climber
Nov 1, 2018 - 09:15am PT
The Neuroscience Of Hate Speech:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/31/opinion/caravan-hate-speech-bowers-sayoc.html

“President Trump has relentlessly demonized his political opponents as evil and belittled them as stupid.”

Seems like I’ve heard a little bit of that evil stupid talk coming from the other camp too. But mommy, he hit me first! People are people and we act like people.

“.. humans are social creatures — including and perhaps especially the unhinged and misfits among us ..”

Yup. The unhinged misfit half of Americans in the Trump camp and the unhinged misfit half of Americans in the other camp that hates them. Seems like we’ve each got our own band of haters who call ourselves lovers.

See y’all in the next banned thread.
Trump

climber
Nov 1, 2018 - 09:29am PT
False equivalence? I’m just speaking to the OP’s question.

I won’t be surprised if we never understand the answer, or if understanding the answer is not really something we want to do with respect to ourselves.

We want the equivalence to tilt in our favor. So do they. And we’ve got 4 billion years of practice at that.

If we want to understand the subtle and not so subtle me-centric tribal biasing of beliefs and behaviors that goes on in other people and other tribes and produces hatred and violence (like the Gombe chimpanzee war), we might be helped by taking a closer look at the same kind of stuff that we each individually and collectively do, and why we all do it.

Neuroscience might help us, if we’re able to believe it.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2018 - 09:55am PT
I guess we can all point out the hate and anger in others, I'd like to start closer to home and cause a positive ripple effect as we do. Jess sayin'. Oh well, just an idea as nothing else seems to be working very well.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 1, 2018 - 10:01am PT
Yes, bothsidism is bullsh#t.

Watch Nita’s clip a few posts above: Steve Schmidt nails it.

The Republican Party has become a white nationalist party, led by the president and cheerled and enabled by so called principled conservatives in Congress.

It has lost moral legitimacy to lead.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 1, 2018 - 10:33am PT
We were talking about responsibility.


A Veteran in that respect means everything. As does a Doctor.
Trump

climber
Nov 1, 2018 - 10:35am PT
Kudos to you Lynne. Thanks for your efforts.

My sense is that if we were as sensitive to our own challenges as we are to other people’s challenges, we might be less apt to condemn and hate them for theirs, while not noticing ours. But if we’re unwilling or unable to do that, then that’s how we are.

Sure, we could all solo El Cap if we thats what we put our minds to doing, but for the most part we don’t. What’s wrong with those other people who don’t solo El Cap?! Nothing.

ONE side includes us all. But that’s not the side we prefer to identify with, and to try to understand. We prefer a more tribal multisided perspective, where we’re on the right side.

It’s not so much about bothsideism or theirsideism, it’s more just about our human birthright of mysideism, and whether or not we can transcend that. We can try to do that by working on other people, but we might have more success by working on ourselves.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 1, 2018 - 10:58am PT
Lynne, please listen to this former Republican strategist who promoted Sarah palin in the 2008 election.

That he's the catalyst for Palin being on McCain's ticket should disqualify him as a credible source. Seriously.

Here's an example of him being a hyper-partisan turd:
This is a moral outrage that hearkens to the worst excesses in the history of this country...to the separation of families at the slave auction blocks to the separation of native American families ...
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 1, 2018 - 11:34am PT
Why is it that the most intolerant, bat-shit crazy, leftwing haters are always the ones engaging the most intolerant, bat-shit crazy, right-wing haters?
Trump

climber
Nov 1, 2018 - 11:40am PT
https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2016

With respect to offenders with known race, 46.3% were white, 26.1% were black.

With respect to racist hate crimes, 50.2% were motivated by anti-black bias, and 20.7% stemmed from anti-white bias.

Between my white self and my black child, I have a hard time choosing one side that doesn’t include us both. But we each have our own challenges.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 1, 2018 - 11:50am PT
By all means, do.
Abbreviated version:

Per the writings of our founding fathers:

We citizens are all in this together, part of a society bonded together by the common goal of improving the human condition of all.

Furthermore our founding fathers believed and recognized that each individual's existence is best advanced by caring about everyone else in society. It's the Golden Rule. If you don't give a sh#t about anyone else, then no one is gonna give a sh#t about you.

Our country was formed through an implied social contract with one-another, per the above philosophy. Respect other people and their rights, and our society will protect you from those as#@&%es who won't play by the rules.

This is not limited to law enforcement. This includes everything and anything. Indeed, Thomas Jefferson wrote:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness... That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Emphasis on safety and happiness, which can include
Affordable healthcare
Safe and secure livelihoods
Safety net (welfare)
Family
Respect for disabled and elderly persons
A roof over our heads
Clean air and water

And per SLR:

If you want to be a selfish bastard, and don't want to participate in our society - our Social Contract - then get the f*#k out of our country.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 1, 2018 - 12:08pm PT
There you go again ,wearing your heart on your sleeve.

LOL.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 1, 2018 - 12:40pm PT
We are in far more danger from murderous tRump supporting bigots than any refugee caravan. Another cynical distraction from the the hater-in-chief.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2018 - 02:08pm PT


Trump says up stream here, "We can try to do that by working on other people, but we might have more success by working on ourselves."

That's what I was trying to say here, "I guess we can all point out the hate and anger in others, I'd like to start closer to home and cause a positive ripple effect as we do. Jess sayin'. Oh well, just an idea as nothing else seems to be working very well."

This thread, as are many of the threads here on ST where people address politics, excellent examples of "working on other people."

How many of you have changed your beliefs by what you've read?

We may have more success by working on ourselves, letting the ripple effect of decency, listening to people, sharing thoughts, finding middle ground and not insisting on the de rigueur of the day play out.

NEWS FLASH: Hate posters have been found around our local San Marcos University Campus.

I challenge the Campfire to be part of the solution to neutralizing the hatred around us! Cheers, Lynne





dirtbag

climber
Nov 1, 2018 - 02:28pm PT
I’m all for kindness to your neighbor.

But we simply cannot put blinders on and ignore the hateful policies and rhetoric coming from ONE of our political parties, the Republican Party.

The country needs a thoughtful Conservative party, NOT A WHITE NATIONALIST PARTY. It’s time to pull the plug on the Republican Party.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 1, 2018 - 02:36pm PT
Sierra Ledge Rat

Nov 1, 2018 - 11:50am PT


Per the writings of our founding fathers:

We citizens are all in this together, part of a society bonded together by the common goal of improving the human condition of all.

Furthermore our founding fathers believed and recognized that each individual's existence is best advanced by caring about everyone else in society. It's the Golden Rule. If you don't give a sh#t about anyone else, then no one is gonna give a sh#t about you.

Our country was formed through an implied social contract with one-another, per the above philosophy. Respect other people and their rights, and our society will protect you from those as#@&%es who won't play by the rules.

This is great. I support all of it. However, it rings hollow coming from someone who is unashamedly hostile to a third of his fellow Americans.

More from SLR:

It never ceases to amaze me how so many right-wing "patriots" are incredibly ignorant of the history of the country that they profess to love and cherish so deeply.

I could try to offer some insight to the ignoramus who made this statement, and direct him to the writings of people like Thomas Jefferson, and the founding principles of our government, but in my experience these right-wingers are too dumb to be educated, or they adamantly cover their eyes and ears when facts are presented to them.

That's how I know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that we are dealing with fanatical white supremacists, racists, fascists, Nazis, ignorant fools, and even the anti Christ himself.

Zero tolerance for Trump and his people in my country.
Zero. None. Nada.
No compromise.

Trump people are arrogant, racist, selfish bastards

Trump supporters are selfish bastards.

EdwardT, let me try to explain this to you in terms simple enough for a right-winger to understand.

If the Nazis were trying to take over, we would take whatever actions were necessary to defeat such a vile enemy. People like EdwardT would say the defenders of freedom were stroking the fires of hostility.

Bullsh#t. We are defending our society from right-wing fascists and racists.

Why is there hate?

Poor white racist trash in America are angry about the changing demographics of America. They desire to return to a time of white supremacy. Trump is lending legitimacy to their mild-blowing ignorance and racist hate.

Racist hate has always been present in America. Racism has been openly practiced in the since the first slaves were brought here. The civil rights movement stomped on racism, but it never went away. Poor white racist trash are not the brightest folks to begin with, and now Trump is openly egging them on.

White supremacists have killed more people in America than attacks on American soil, Muslims, and left-wing radicals combined. Trump's white supremacist are the greatest threat to America than all of other enemies combined. They are the real enemies of the state.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 1, 2018 - 02:37pm PT
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 1, 2018 - 02:42pm PT
I think you had better examine why it rings hollow to you.

I will give you credit on your math though.
johntp

Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
Nov 1, 2018 - 02:48pm PT
This thread, as are many of the threads here on ST where people address politics

That's part of the problem, but not the key ingredient. As others have touched on, it is the lack of ability to see things though other peoples lenses. We all have different backgrounds, baggage and beliefs.

Hate comes from anger, which is a byproduct of feeling marginalized. It is both amusing and sad that so many choose to go the political route to point fingers. I'm non political. I hate most politicians equally.

As far as what can be done locally, perhaps be more tolerant of people that have opposing viewpoints and "walk a mile their shoes".

There is a lot of diversity in this country and around the world. I'm a strong believer that the vast majority of the people in the world just want a good life and don't want conflict.

Plain fact of the matter is there is a minority that thrive on hating and creating hate. Can't change human nature.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2018 - 02:48pm PT
Nita, of course there is hate in politics. There is hate in every level of life.....personal relationships, work, recreation (oh yea) and, yes, in religious institutions....hate, envy and jealously are deadly.

I watched the entire video. I have two wishes. One, that I could discuss this with Steve Schmidt and next, you and I could sit down together and listen to this guy and discuss.

What I don't understand is Why all who are against the current administration and the Republican party are not Doing something to change things. Now is the time. Name calling and rhetoric is not going to really accomplish much. Why are not all those so concerned about what they see Happening do something? Is the Democratic Party taking this time to strengthen their platform, find viable candidates? This is a must! I want to hear about who are in the wings ready to step forward and take leadership.

There are Republicans out there that could be swayed if they were listened to and their concerns were addressed.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 1, 2018 - 02:57pm PT
Good post Lynnie. I think opposing viewpoints are essential to a healthy society.

Any form of racial, gender or religious based bigotry is not.

StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 1, 2018 - 06:12pm PT
Heavy on the 30 weight...and tubs of slaw
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2018 - 06:24pm PT
Ceviche, beer

some lime and chips

carne and beans

with some great dips

dinner at eight will do jess fine

as long as there's friends

to share the time.

Here's to you Walter, a toast!


Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2018 - 06:43pm PT
Ok, enough for the fun, back to hate....just kidding!

Power Crux, I talk to people a lot. I tell them that years ago I stopped listening to the political talk radio shows because after a while it became obvious to me that they had to play people against each other to keep their listeners tuning in. It was not so much about what was right for America it was about dividing people to make the talk show hosts popular.

And after I do that I never consider I've lost.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 1, 2018 - 06:59pm PT
Negro Modelo to chase the ceviche and pulpo tacos please!
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2018 - 07:03pm PT
del Cross, Moosedrool brought up something I have wanted to.

Me, I cannot, by my own self all the time love, like or tolerate some people, groups and organizations, even some I need to work with on a regular basis. But I can with my best friend jesus.

In my mid 20's I would have physically died if jesus had not become my best friend. I was on a path of destruction. But He has a plan for each of our lives and as my best friend, jesus has helped me through the years be the person I know I was created to be. When I struggled with relationships, He has been my grace giver, showing me how to forgive. He is the one that birthed love in my heart when I wanted to hurt and hate those that hurt me.

Have you ever heard of Corrie ten Boom. She was a Dutch woman living in Holland with her family during WW II. She and her family decided that jesus would want them to help the Jewish people escape the Nazi's and her family did, hiding them in their home. They eventually had a "friend" tell the Nazi's what they were doing and as a result her Father and Sister died in concentration camps. Corrie survived and went on to travel the world until she was 80+ telling people about God's love and how he changed her bitterness into love.

Read her books, "Hiding Place" and "Tramp for the Lord". They are simple, honest and bring life to this sometimes hating world.

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 1, 2018 - 07:29pm PT
Per correct comments made on Xcon's post of a supposed Sinclair Lewis quote up-thread:

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair lewis

After a little research on the subject, similar quotes have a fascinating history & were even used by racists against those who tried to end segregation.

What a strange country we live in, when now a similar quote is validly used to call-out the new "hate-mongers" in our beloved America, Trump & his trumpists.
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/07/28/flag/

Please don't think the Democrats are going to regain the House of Representatives & other key posts, without "YOU" voting in this election.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
Fritz, just think if the energy used here against Trump was used to tell everyone about who should be elected and why, it would be time well spent.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 1, 2018 - 07:43pm PT
I'm holding off until Bitter old man chimes in...
Aeriq

Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
Nov 1, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
I think opposing viewpoints are essential to a healthy society.

Any form of racial, gender or religious based bigotry is not.

StahlBro - yes.

History sadly shows otherwise.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 1, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/sick-and-tired-of-trump-heres-what-to-do/2018/10/31/7

Sick and Tired
By Max Boot
Washington Post Columnist
October 31

“I am sick and tired of this administration. I’m sick and tired of what’s going on. I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired, and I hope you are, too.”
— Joe Biden

I’m sick and tired, too.

I’m sick and tired of a president who pretends that a caravan of impoverished refugees is an “invasion” by “unknown Middle Easterners” and “bad thugs” — and whose followers on Fox News pretend the refugees are bringing leprosy and smallpox to the United States. (Smallpox was eliminated about 40 years ago.)

I’m sick and tired of a president who misuses his office to demagogue on immigration — by unnecessarily sending 5,200 troops to the border and by threatening to rescind by executive order the 14th Amendment guarantee of citizenship to anyone born in the United States.

I’m sick and tired of a president who is so self-absorbed that he thinks he is the real victim of mail-bomb attacks on his political opponents — and who, after visiting Pittsburgh despite being asked by local leaders to stay away, tweeted about how he was treated, not about the victims of the synagogue massacre.

Opinion | Trump owns the Republican Party, and there's no going back
Donald Trump has irreversibly changed the Republican Party. The upheaval might seem unusual, but political transformations crop up throughout U.S. history. (Adriana Usero, Danielle Kunitz, Robert Gebelhoff/The Washington Post)

I’m sick and tired of a president who cheers a congressman for his physical assault of a reporter, calls the press the “enemy of the people ” and won’t stop or apologize even after bombs were sent to CNN in the mail.

ADVERTISING

I’m sick and tired of a president who employs the language of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about Jewish financier George Soros and “globalists,” and won’t apologize or retract even after what is believed to be the worst attack on Jews in U.S. history.

[Americans will head to the polls in less than a week. Here’s why some won’t.]

I’m sick and tired of a president who won’t stop engaging in crazed partisanship, denouncing Democrats as “evil,” “un-American” and “treasonous” subversives who are in league with criminals.

I’m sick and tired of a president who cares so little about right-wing terrorism that, on the very day of the synagogue shooting, he proceeded with a campaign rally, telling his supporters, “Let’s have a good time.”

I’m sick and tired of a president who presides over one of the most unethical administrations in U.S. history — with three Cabinet members resigning for reported ethical infractions and the secretary of the interior the subject of at least 18 federal investigations.


I’m sick and tired of a president who flouts norms of accountability by refusing to release his tax returns or place his business holdings in a blind trust.

I’m sick and tired of a president who lies outrageously and incessantly — an average of eight times a day — claiming recently that there are riots in California and that a bill that passed the Senate 98 to 1 had “very little Democrat support.”

I’m sick and tired of a president who can’t be bothered to work hard and instead prefers to spend his time watching Fox News and acting like a Twitter troll.

And I’m sick and tired of Republicans who go along with Trump — defending, abetting and imitating his egregious excesses.

I’m sick and tired of Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) acting like a caddie for the man he once denounced as a “kook” — just this week, Graham endorsed Trump’s call for rescinding “birthright citizenship,” a kooky idea if ever there was one.


I’m sick and tired of House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.), who got his start in politics as a protege of the “bleeding-heart conservative” Jack Kemp, refusing to call out Trump’s race-baiting.

I’m sick and tired of Republicans who once complained about the federal debt adding $113 billion to the debt just in fiscal year 2018.

I’m sick and tired of Republicans who once championed free trade refusing to stop Trump as he launches trade wars with all of our major trade partners.

I’m sick and tired of Republicans who not only refuse to investigate Trump’s alleged ethical violations but who also help him to obstruct justice by maligning the FBI, the special counsel and the Justice Department.

Most of all, I’m sick and tired of Republicans who feel that Trump’s blatant bigotry gives them license to do the same — with Rep. Pete Olson (R-Tex.) denouncing his opponent as an “Indo-American carpetbagger,” Florida gubernatorial candidate Ron DeSantis warning voters not to “monkey this up” by electing his African American opponent, Rep. Duncan D. Hunter (R-Calif.) labeling his “Palestinian Mexican” opponent a “security risk” who is “working to inf iltrate Congress,” and Rep. Steve Chabot (R-Ohio) accusing his opponent, who is of Indian Tibetan heritage, of “selling out Americans” because he once worked at a law firm that settled terrorism-related cases against Libya.

If you’re sick and tired, too, here is what you can do. Vote for Democrats on Tuesday. For every office. Regardless of who they are. And I say that as a former Republican. Some Republicans in suburban districts may claim they aren’t for Trump. Don’t believe them. Whatever their private qualms, no Republicans have consistently held Trump to account. They are too scared that doing so will hurt their chances of reelection. If you’re as sick and tired as I am of being sick and tired about what’s going on, vote against all Republicans. Every single one. That’s the only message they will understand.

"I am sick and tired, physically, but I work at doing something about it. I wish there was more I could do about sidelining the Republicans' agenda. Maybe if I use my head I'll come up with something."
--mfm

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 2, 2018 - 06:02am PT
So is being sick and tired, enough?

Rhetorical question, to which the rhetorical answer is a resounding "NO!"

I call your attention to the 1994 California goobernatorial election and Pito Wilson's ad on TV.

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/1/20/14332296/reaction-trump-democrats-organize-hispanic-turnout-prop187

Latinos in the state organized in protest. Opposition to the initiative flowed from across the political and economic establishment, and grew to include most California newspapers, professional groups, law enforcement organizations, and corporate leaders, plus a few national Republican leaders like Jack Kemp and Bill Bennett. To no avail: In November 1994, Proposition 187 passed with 59 percent of the vote.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 2, 2018 - 07:21am PT
Wow. Even Max Boot has turned on Trump!
dirtbag

climber
Nov 2, 2018 - 08:16am PT
Oh yeah, Gary! He turned on trump before his election and has strongly renounced his Republican Party membership, even publishing a book digging into the southern strategy and xenophobic/racist allure of the modern Republican Party.
Trump

climber
Nov 2, 2018 - 08:36am PT
What I don't understand is Why all who are against the current administration and the Republican party are not Doing something to change things.

They are doing something - they’re expressing their unhappiness and frustration and desire for change. They’re making some arguments for why their side is good and the other side is bad. They’re trying to influence other people to share their beliefs, or to be similarly morally outraged and motivated, maybe to vote, maybe to take some other action, maybe just for the boost of approval of their shared tribal identity.

They’re making choices of how to invest their resources of time and energy in a way that works to their best advantage, according to their best cost/reward analysis, whether that choice is to post to some Internet forum, or to fly to a swing state to canvas undecided swing voters. And we have an opportunity to see what they decide, and to try to understand why that’s what they decide to do and to believe.

And like every every everything, the way they do it might not match the way you or I would do it. Maybe the way that seems right to us is to believe in God or let Jesus take the wheel, and that seems like it would be right for everyone, but for them, they have their own sense for their own reasons why doing it their way is the right way.

Their way might not end up being the best way - it might be ineffective, it might create a worse situation with worse conflicts and a worse outcome for everyone.

It might not. You might use your hatred and tribalism and name calling and become president and affect the culture and appoint two Supreme Court judges.

What’s actually going in the end to be effective at accomplishing what we want might not match what we think is going to be effective, whether what we think should be most effective is love, or hate, or some balance of the two.

Being big and cold blooded seemed like a good idea at the time, but there are no dinosaurs left regardless. We can think whatever we want about what’s the best way for us to think or for us to behave, or what’s wrong with the way other people do it for themselves, but ultimately, we’re not the ones who decide whether or not we’re right about what we believe.

Who woulda thunk those little rats were going to outcompete the dinosaurs?

When you say you don’t understand why other people do things the way they do - that’s just our nature - it’s really really hard to understand. I don’t think we even understand ourselves and our own reasons for believing and behaving the way we do.

I think that understanding isn’t necessarily what we’re trying to do with these big brains - I think we’re just trying to compute advantageous (often social) beliefs and behaviors. I think that’s the “doing something” that WE’re doing. And while understanding can be advantageous, sometimes other beliefs are more advantageous within the constellation of our incomplete understandings.

And then for other people, we lay what we think are our reasons for believing and behaving the way we do (where I expect that often those self-confirming beliefs about ourselves are wrong) on them, and then we don’t understand why they don’t match what we see in other people. But we’re always looking through a self-confirming lens that my beliefs are true, whether they’re actually true or not.

When you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Things might not be quite the way we see them, because of who and what we are while looking at them.

I admire wanting and trying to understand, but the first thing I want to understand is why we - that big WE that both I and my children and those trump supporters are all part of together - don’t understand, then maybe I’ll be able to move on to what’s wrong with other people’s understanding.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Nov 2, 2018 - 09:48am PT
Hi, Wilbeer,

I’ve personally seen veterans do horrible things in war zone, both in combat and otherwise. I’ll put no veteran on a platform. They signed up (for the most part). I’ve also recently been consulting with a many doctors, and I can tell you that most of them seem to be more oriented to their own self interests than mine. I would say they have no special claim on compassion or wisdom; I’ve gotten much more of both from nurses in my life.

Responsibility seems to imply that one is supposed to direct or control the experiences of another, and that seems to arise from a sense of *duty* to control or direct for outcomes. Responsibility would seem to require behaviors like praises and rewards, but also punishment and blame, of one over another. That view seems rather conservative to me. Liberalism seems to be somewhat opposed to that philosophy (“give me freedom” not “give me responsibility”).

All this seems somewhat reasonable and justified in situations like parenting and educational environments. However, when it is adult overseeing adults, or when the few manages the many, then one gets into the thickets. What I’m suggesting here is a need to talk about principles or the philosophy of government and management. IMO, none of it is clear to me other than: allowing cultures to be whatever they want to be—people select in, and the cultures get to de-select members they don’t want in them. We use voting most often to gauge the will and objectives of a culture (assuming it / they know what they want in the first place). The more modern cultures are, however, the more they seem fragmented. It seems that any one leader or manager is partly a result and a part of the fragmentation. Hence, most everyone these days feels marginalized to some extent or another. Blame freedom and individual will.

Spiritually, it’s been argued by almost everyone noteworthy that one needs to save him or herself first before “saving” others. (Then one can see whether the world needs saving.) We hear that every time we take a plane flight: “put on your oxygen first.”


SLR,

Thanks.

Is your high regard for Jefferson because he is a founder, because he expresses ideas that you agree with, he was a really smart guy, or something else? Because Jefferson said it, are you done thinking about the issues? Weren’t there not others who had different opinions in Jefferson’s time who then came to compromises that led to the formation of the country? Have there not been changes in mindsets and environments that might lead to changes in the objectives and means of government?

I question whether anyone could say if Jefferson and his colleagues would necessarily support your list of “safety and happiness” items. Weren’t many of the founding fathers not slave owners, for example? I think your list is your list, not Jefferson’s. Of course it’s open to interpretation, and it seems that is what the judicial branch of government is supposed to concern themselves with.

If you want to be a selfish bastard, and don't want to participate in our society - our Social Contract - then get the f*#k out of our country. 

Brother, *that* sounds about as conservative as I can remember from (the 60s and 70s).

Be well.





wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 2, 2018 - 10:26am PT
MikeL,
I have different experiences than you ,hence my opinion.

I really do not know any undrafted veterans,but ,know and have helped a lot of Nam vets.

20 year EMT. Would agree about nurses.

SLR was an emergency room doctor at UR.


As far as having “Conservative”views,that I agree with. Eastern Democratic Socialist are somewhat conservative,yet folks label them. Most are middle class working folk and small business owners.

I don’t get to fly in jets.


Cheers and thanks for explaining responsibility.

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 2, 2018 - 10:45am PT
I will never apologize for fighting hard against the enemy within - the Republicans - no matter how many of them there are.

These people are always clamoring that we should respect their opinions, and if we don't then we are the haters.

Nope. We will never buy into your justifications.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 2, 2018 - 10:50am PT
Mike, I learned about civic responsibility while climbing in Sweden. They considered it their civic duty to wear climbing helmets long before they became anywhere near the norm here.

edit:
I married into the medical field. I hear you loud and clear. That said I am quite impressed and hopeful about the newer generation of docs. As to the older gen in many cases I think the caring is there, it’s just not expressed well. The main problem with the latter is that you have to be yer own advocate often.
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 2, 2018 - 11:20am PT
Any truth to the rumour that Trump is seeking a pardon for El Polozero to help combat the invasion?


Cartel gangster ‘The Stew Maker’ dissolved as many as 650 people in ACID

Santiago Meza Lopez, a stocky 45-year-old taken into custody after a raid near Ensenada, was identified as the pozolero who liquefied the bodies of victims for lieutenants of the Arellano Felix drug cartel. Authorities say he laid claim to stuffing 300 bodies into barrels of lye, then dumping some of the liquefied remains in a pit in a hillside compound in eastern Tijuana.



Relevance?

Did the stew maker and the cartel hate all these folks, or was it just busness "as usual"?
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 2, 2018 - 07:37pm PT
The jews should have shown love to the Nazis. Love is all that matters, right?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 2, 2018 - 07:50pm PT
I don’t get why so many Jews drive Mercedes and Bimmers.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2018 - 09:17pm PT
Reilly, I think Bimmer, BMW, stands for British Motor Works...I don't think it's German.

Monolith, an unsupported statement.....
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 2, 2018 - 09:26pm PT
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/uk-starts-criminal-probe-of-labour-party-anti-semitism/ar-BBPfiwX?OCID=ansmsnnews11

Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 2, 2018 - 10:09pm PT
May god save us from those who would save us from ourselves.

MikeL, well said. Hearkens one of my favorite quotes:

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

--CS Lewis
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 2, 2018 - 10:21pm PT
Lituya, I'm assuming for political points you are equating Agnostic, American liberals elites with hardcore Irish, Catholic, labor types born of a gorilla movement simply because of the shared "liberal" moniker.

Philosophically you're way off the mark- consider these guys more like your standard, white, angry Trumpeter.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 2, 2018 - 10:58pm PT
CS Lewis was a writer of fiction. His whole world was intentionally clouded from clarity, accordingly.

He made up stories.

This is disappointing, Jim. I expected more from you.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 2, 2018 - 11:43pm PT

Reilly, I think Bimmer, BMW, stands for British Motor Works...I don't think it's German.

Lynne, it's Bavarian Motor Works. They got their start making aviation engines in WWI. The logo represents a spinning propeller.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 2, 2018 - 11:47pm PT
The jews should have shown love to the Nazis. Love is all that matters, right?

WWKS? (What would Kant say?)
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 3, 2018 - 07:29am PT
Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 3, 2018 - 08:19am PT
Is your high regard for Jefferson because he is a founder, because he expresses ideas that you agree with, he was a really smart guy, or something else?

MikeL,
Is this a serious question? Are you not aware of the long line of 18th century political activists who formed the philipsophical basis of our society and government?

Perhaps you do know, and I'll assume that. My love is not for Jefferson himself but the entire philosophy of the Social Contract. It just so happens that Jefferson wrote the best-known Social Contract document (Decl of Indep), so he is easy to quote. But I prefer the writings of Locke.

As a right-winger I am sure that you are more familiar with hypocrisy that anyone else, but the contradictions of our founding fathers does not negate the greatness of the philosophy that they used to launch a war for liberty against the greatest power on the planet.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Nov 3, 2018 - 10:02am PT
Jim: How much adult babysitting, meeting a schedule and budget while delivering a project on time have you done as an academic, Mike ? 

Jim, I trust this is a question accompanied with a smile?

Academically as a teacher, I hesitate to go there. It was not a pretty picture or experience in those regards. I’ve had parents of MBAs call the dean about the poor treatment his or her son was accorded by me. I helped to initiate and reorganize curricula at Cal Poly (and EMBA program), and the senior faculty finally arose and squashed the efforts of engaged younger faculty (of which I was a part). Later at Cisco Systems I took over an IT apprenticeship program for humanities high achievers (about $1M budget—small). After a year and a half of operations, I suggested to the CIO that the program be discontinued because it didn’t make any sense financially and in terms of the development of human resources. He agreed, and thought that I was a good corporate citizen for it. A couple of months after that, I found that my manager thought that it would be a good idea if I left the company. (We live and learn.) I don’t think I have any bromides that I can provide. I’m just an observer of manifestations. I’m of a view that nothing changes the universe. I’m a cog with a little bit of influence that comes from being in the right place at the right time with the right attitude. That attitude is “go with the flow, actively.”


SLR,

Your distain is palpable. Relax just a little. We’re just talking here. There are no real resources or decisions involved. We’re just (I hope) exploring ideas.

(P.S. Right winger? Please. What makes you jump to that conclusion? Because I challenge you? What do you know of postmodernism?)

Principles of justice may be more fundamental than any social contract as it has been earlier conceived by Hobbes and others. Moreover, feminists argue that a social contract ignores their experiences. Carol Gilligan in her book, “In Another Voice,”  made strong distinctions about the difference between the theory of justice by equity versus equality. (Men use equality, while women intuitively use equity.) I like what Gilligan had to say. I do appreciate the notion of equity in justice. (There are many other feminists and postmodernists who make complaints.)

On the other hand, my training in academia made me especially sensitive to abstractions, and Rawls presents the best version (imo) of the social contract. His notion of the original position ignores personal circumstance and talks about rights and equity in a way that completely ignores circumstance *for the sake of pure justice.* Of course it’s highly abstract, but it is also very pure.

I’d say the whole idea of “contracts” makes us things rather than human beings. I’ve seen and complained about exactly the same thing with my colleagues in business schools—mainly economists. Contracts and transaction views between people and their organizations may be instrumentally useful, but it tends to lead to inhumanity. In my field, organizations cannot be built and led simply to maximize self-interest or profit. Organizations are communities of people. (I think I’m getting off track here. Sorry, I have a teleconference with my teacher in a few minutes.)

Let me just say that the whole conversation about “social contracts” has much more to offer than what Jefferson and Hobbes and Locke had to say. Each are embedded in its own social milieu and cultures. It’s complicated. I’d say we should come up-to-date with our conversations. For example, I’d say look at Rawls.

Gotta run. Thanks for writing. Sorry if this is not all that well-written.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 3, 2018 - 10:13am PT
Sorry if this is not all that well-written.

Humility becomes you, sir. Would that half the crankloons here had one tenth yer expository skills.
Erroneous assumptions and a pervasive intolerance of questions and theses deemed inimicable are sadly the norm here. I’m surprised someone as civil as you still bothers to try and engage in discussions.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 3, 2018 - 10:28am PT
Your distain is palpable.
Thank you. Good to get some feedback that my message is clearly understood.

Principles of justice may be...
True, true, true, true, true, and all irrelevant.
I'm not talking about post-modernism, I'm talking about our 200+ year-old Constitution.

I agree with Rawls' sensibilities. Justice and equity are subsets of the social contract, and are natural extensions of the underlying philosophy. The whole point of the social contract is to advance the human condition.

Contracts and transaction views between people and their organizations may be instrumentally useful, but it tends to lead to inhumanity.
Only when Republicans forget their own history. The agenda of the liberals is generally to advance the human condition of everyone, not just billionaires.

The social contract took mankind 5,000 years to develop, and the mental masturbation of postmodern philosophers of the past 200 years isn't somehow superior.

Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 3, 2018 - 10:46am PT
The agenda of the liberals is generally to advance the human condition of everyone, not just billionaires.

I wouldn't be so sure.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 3, 2018 - 10:51am PT
I wouldn't be so sure.
I qualified my statement with "generally," but you're trying to distract attention from the heinous Republicans agenda.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 3, 2018 - 11:03am PT
No, not even generally. Sadly, American liberals are being played in a big way. Or, in some instances, are just willing dupes.





Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2018 - 12:28pm PT
Gary, thanks for the correction.

When I arrived in Taco Land and you deviated from the thread topic it was called a thread drift and you were reminded of your faux pas by others. This is no drift it's a tsunami.

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 3, 2018 - 01:03pm PT

SLR.

Inbetween using the whip on MikeL is a good thing, much needed... no cure for the blindness, but much needed... You're a good man... let the anger slip away...-
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 3, 2018 - 01:39pm PT
Lynne, my musings on my Jewish friends’ car choices should be on the Life’s Ironies thread
although I saw fit to include it here as my only theory is that Jews are more foregiving than
is good for them. 😉
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 3, 2018 - 02:24pm PT
Many of today’s Nazi’s are in the USA. Maybe that is why they buy German.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2018 - 04:02pm PT
NeeBraun .... don't know who you are but you can either delete your post or be the poster child for this thread.


And I'm waiting for someone to comment on the obvious. The hate thread gets over 300 posts, the love one ........9
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2018 - 04:19pm PT
And you? It's 4pm here. The evening is young. :)
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Nov 3, 2018 - 04:28pm PT
Lynne, I think it's just someone's version of sarcasm/satire .

Similar to the logic of breitfartisans saying that when Jews are murdered, it's the fault of Jews. Alt reight theory is simple. Just remember: rich "liberal" Bad. rich "conservative" Good. Murdoch good. Gates bad. Koch good. Buffet bad. Roger Stone good. Soros bad. Murdoch good. Gore bad. Trump good. Clinton bad. Mercer good. Bloomberg bad. DeVos good.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Nov 4, 2018 - 10:28am PT
SLR,

Ok, distain is your message. That part of the conversation doesn’t require engagement.

I thought the ideas as issues about justice and principles of governance were worthy. It's not like the issues have been resolved politically, legally, or philosophically.

I think you misunderstand Rawls’ view, as well feminists’ view of social contract theories.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 4, 2018 - 02:11pm PT
I would bet you were pretty good at teaching business.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 4, 2018 - 04:58pm PT
I was amused by this.

FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Nov 4, 2018 - 05:12pm PT
People choose to hate because sadly it gives them the feeling of power. & to a few, it gives real power.
WBraun

climber
Nov 4, 2018 - 06:19pm PT
I love to hate st00pid sh!t.

Muwhahahaha ......
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Nov 4, 2018 - 07:43pm PT
hey there say, lynne...
dear lynne, not sure if our output here, is helping?
or, just food for thought, for any future reference that you need,
maybe?

as to your question:

a variety of reasons....
most the reasons come from one root:
started early in life... (though, the root can get planted, later, too)...

hate is taught... learning hate--
(edit-- besides being taught to hate others,
one can be taught to hate oneself, too)
hate becomes a thought pattern, action-re'action (to and
against, almost any situation)...
so:

i am not really sure one 'chooses it'...
HOWEVER, a better question might be,

--> why do people NOT choose to STOP hating...

a person knows what it is,usually by living in, or through it...
it has formed their make-up by now...
and is too-much-a-part of their whole life... so much that
they don't want to change--(or, if some do want to, it is too hard to)...
and: one looses the 'control hold' that it has given their life, at this point...


from there, it only gets worse, as, each human has their
own justification of/for it, and release-actions...
and, distortions from this, multiply within, until
it all spills out into life, and into the world...


so, again, ???
not sure if this helps you, in your question, or not???


for folks to STOP hating, there must be very powerful 'incentive' to do so...


sadly, that is different for everyone, and one can't stop
everyone, at the same time...
perhaps one day a time...
one person at a time...

like trying to heal a garden, that is overgrown, stopping the healing
food of life, which is needed to 'help the garden' in the first place...
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 5, 2018 - 11:30am PT
Speaking of hateful. Trump sponsored a TV Ad that was so racist, even Fox News is refusing to air it.

NEW YORK (Reuters) - NBC and Fox News said on Monday they pulled a television advertisement on immigration that was endorsed by President Donald Trump and deemed “racist” by CNN.

The primetime ads, paid for by Donald J. Trump for President, ran during a “Sunday Night Football” broadcast and linked Luis Bracamontes, an undocumented immigrant convicted of killing two sheriff’s deputies in California in 2014 to the caravan of immigrants fleeing Central America.
“After further review we recognize the insensitive nature of the ad and have decided to cease airing it across our properties as soon as possible,” said a spokesperson for NBC Universal in an emailed statement on Monday.

The ad was earlier rejected by CNN who labeled it “racist.”
“CNN has made it abundantly clear in its editorial coverage that this ad is racist. When presented with an opportunity to be paid to take a version of this ad, we declined. Those are the facts,” the network tweeted on Nov. 3.

Fox News issued a statement about taking down the ad shortly after NBC, according to a CNN report.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-advertising/nbc-fox-news-pull-trump-campaign-ad-linking-immigration-crime-idUSKCN1NA298


Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 5, 2018 - 12:11pm PT
I've said it before; the only way to battle hate or terror is to endeavor to create a world that people want to be a part of rather than escape from.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 5, 2018 - 01:04pm PT
If Jesus came back today, what would he say to tRump?

Would Jesus be a “Nationalist”?

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 5, 2018 - 01:06pm PT
I don’t often go to church but when I do I prefer a synagogue -
they put out a good spread. Mmmmm - knish!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 5, 2018 - 01:29pm PT
Would Jesus be a “Nationalist”?

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 02:10pm PT
StahlBro, I think most certainly jesus was not a nationalist back when he lived nor would he be one here today. The definition of a "Nationalist" is one who advocates political independence for a country.

If you remember the Romans were in power when jesus came on the scene. The Jewish people were looking for someone to deliver them from the Roman power and restore their freedom and culture and that was what most thought their "Messiah" would be, a political conqueror of the Romans.

That was not jesus. He said, when asked about paying taxes in Matthew 22:

Paying the Imperial Tax to Caesar

15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax[a] to Caesar or not?”

18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

21 “Caesar’s,” they replied.

Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.




Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 02:30pm PT
StahlBro, What jesus would say to President Trump I seriously do not know.

I don't even think jesus would approach him. Jesus mission on this planet was for hope, healing (of all kinds, physical, psychological and emotional) and heaven.

He moved amongst people, not the privileged, power mongers or politicians.

I love Matthew Chapters 4-7.

Four tells about the beginning of jesus entrance into public light. The first things he did:

*Taught in the synagogues
*Preached the good news of the kingdom (of God)
*Healed every disease and sickness among the people

Hardly a politician but a lover of people...everyday people.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 5, 2018 - 03:17pm PT
Even Jesus hated the banksters.... And it did not end well for him because of it.
johntp

Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
Nov 5, 2018 - 03:41pm PT
And I'm waiting for someone to comment on the obvious. The hate thread gets over 300 posts, the love one ........9

The difference in age. Young bucks asserting power. More mature folks don't want to get in a hate fest. We've been down that road and learned.

edit: it's your thread. You can delete it whenever you want.
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:53am PT
Say hay L

Somebody is listening to you

Is There A Cure For Hate?

November 6, 20187:19 AM ET



https://www.npr.org/2018/11/06/663773514/is-there-a-cure-for-hate

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2018 - 11:01am PT
Thanks zBrown. The last part gives hope.
fragglerockjoe

Trad climber
space-man from outer space
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:11pm PT
Man I could seriously use some help in this topic.
Having run away from hate and emotional attacks for nearly all my life.
Finding myself hanging off of the end of the world.
Why in the hell are people so spiteful?
Do they want to see me unhappy?
Or is it that they are so accustomed to unhappiness that they think I'm supposed to be unhappy so that they feel normal?

That's it! They need me.
They need me so that way they can point the finger and say I'm the bad guy.
Well say good night to the bad guy.
bit'er ol' guy

climber
the past
Nov 8, 2018 - 03:57pm PT
don't have the balls to make a good life for yourself? Blame some one who doesn't look like you. Blame crimes.
fragglerockjoe

Trad climber
space-man from outer space
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:25pm PT
It isn't balls. It's credit and apparently somebody forgot to teach us about that sh#t, and we had to learn at age 40 about buying land and how to build a cabin. All by our self.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 06:35pm PT
fragglerockjoe, I don't think bit'er ol'guy was necessarily talking about you.

I hear what you are saying. It's a good thing to run from destructive people in your life and say "good night" you won't be their bad guy anymore. Each of us have choices. The trick for me is to make the right choice one day at a time.

We all have life challenges each day of our life. Do I cave or do I change it up. We can change it up no matter what our circumstances or how old we are. I choose to change and grow and struggle to carry it out each day.

Oh yeah, a day at a time, step at a time, with peace, patience and perseverance. It's happening.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 8, 2018 - 06:39pm PT
Last time I checked,one day at a time is all we are afforded,In the kindest way.
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