Discussion Topic |
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Port
Trad climber
Stockholm, Sweden 🇸🇪
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 25, 2018 - 12:52am PT
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I didn't see another post on this but surely of interest. The story is just horrible and doesn't sound like much to go on.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/man-shot-dead-camping-malibu-creek-state-park-a8414116.html
A man has been shot dead on a camping trip in California with his two young daughters.
Tristan Beaudette, 35, died after suffering a gunshot wound to his upper torso at a campsite in Malibu Creek State Park in Calabasas.
At least 60 state-owned campsites in the park have closed in the wake of the fatal shooting to allow sheriff’s detectives to hunt for the shooter.
A motive for the shooting of Mr Beaudette - from Irvine in Orange County – is unknown.
"It appears that the victim was camping at the site with family members," according to the sheriff's department.
The victim was reportedly accompanied by his daughters who are aged two and four.
No one else was injured and no arrests appear to have been made.
"The campground will be closed through Thursday, June 28. We will evaluate daily whether we can re-open sooner or if the closure has to continue past June 28,” Tony Hoffman with California State Parks told NBC4.
Campers were forced to leave all of the 60 campsites – which will stay closed until at least Thursday - on Friday.
“We hope to reopen on Friday, June 29,” Tony Hoffman, a superintendent for California State Parks told NBC4. “We’ll re-evaluate it daily to see if we can’t open sooner, or, of course, extend the closure if necessary.”
Malibu Creek State Park is an 8,215-acre park famed for being the backdrop for TV series M*A*S*H and films such as Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and the original Planet of the Apes
https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/state/california/article213758479.html
Tristan Beaudette took his young daughters camping last weekend in Malibu Creek State Park while his wife prepared to take an exam, KTLA reported. He didn't come back.
Beaudette, of Irvine, California, was found fatally shot about 4:45 a.m. Friday, according to the Los Angeles Times. His daughters, ages 4 and 2, were in the tent with him at the time, but were not hurt.
According to a GoFundMe account set up for Beaudette’s family, he was "out doing something he adored in life, being in the outdoors with his two young girls."
Beaudette and his wife were getting ready to relocate to the Bay Area for new jobs, according to GoFundMe.
Family and friends told CBS that Beaudette was a scientist for a pharmaceutical company, and his children were "his greatest pride and joy."
"And then it was all taken away, by a fatal gun shot in the middle of the night, in front of his two young daughters," the GoFundMe page says. "Not a second goes by that we aren’t grappling with the senselessness of this crime."
As of Sunday morning, the account had raised $17,165 of a $25,000 goal.
Authorities don’t have a suspect or any leads in the case, according to CBS. State Park Superintendent Tony Hoffman told KTLA that the shooting happened in an area of the park with 63 campsites, which were likely occupied when Beaudette was killed.
Lt. Rodney Moore told the Los Angeles Times that police believe Beaudette was shot in the tent while the children were present.
"We are working this as a homicide at this point," he told the newspaper.
The GoFundMe page for Beaudette’s family described him as an "amazing father, husband, son and brother."
"You were admired by so many for your devotion to your wife and two daughters," the page said.
Malibu Creek State Park, in the Calabasas area of Los Angeles, was used to film movies and TV shows including "MASH" and "Planet of the Apes."
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jun 25, 2018 - 01:18am PT
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hey there say, port... :O oh my... :(
may god see that this is solved... :(
and-- somehow heal these children, and comfort his wife and loved ones...
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Jun 25, 2018 - 05:40am PT
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What????!!! Trying to wrap my head around this one. We go camping with our children all the time. WTF? All I can say.
S...
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jun 25, 2018 - 06:18am PT
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Damn. Some random psycho? Damn.
BAd
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 25, 2018 - 06:18am PT
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You wouldn't have had to 'force' me to leave one of the other 60 campsites!
Sad stuff...
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Jun 25, 2018 - 07:03am PT
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Condolences, hope thy catch the psycho fuk!
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jun 25, 2018 - 07:15am PT
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wow- mind boggling and terrifying. I hope they catch the guy.
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
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Jun 25, 2018 - 07:23am PT
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They say he was a scientist for a pharmaceutical company? Hmmmm......someone didn't want testing to go the next step. My speculation.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Jun 25, 2018 - 07:51am PT
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There is evidence of previous shootings - of objects but not people. Happens at night. A woman sleeping in her car had a shot fired at her car.
There’s a nutcase out there. His/her violence has now escalated to murder. And this poor man was a random victim.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Jun 25, 2018 - 08:38am PT
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wonder why they wont name his employer?
He was in the process of getting a new job in NoCal.
This is a strange one. At first I thought it was an inside job, and then I thought maybe suicide.
Strange case.
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Port
Trad climber
Stockholm, Sweden 🇸🇪
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2018 - 08:45am PT
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I've not any children so no context, but is it common to go camping solo with a 2 and 4 year old? Seems weird no?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jun 25, 2018 - 08:52am PT
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Weird for a father to take his kids camping? No. Commonly done in the U.S.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 25, 2018 - 09:07am PT
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He was taking them camping so his wife could study for an exam.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Jun 25, 2018 - 09:17am PT
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I don't think it is unusual for a father to take his young kids camping, while allowing his wife the space to study, as the story mentioned. That's a good dad and husband; one lucky to be in the position to do such a thing. Not all could, or would.
I hope they can solve the case without too long a delay. Horrible thing to happen, especially for those two girls - just awful.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Jun 25, 2018 - 09:22am PT
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They say he was a scientist for a pharmaceutical company? Hmmmm......someone didn't want testing to go the next step. My speculation. That was my thought too, especially since there was no mention of anyone hearing gunfire. Sounded a bit like a hit.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 25, 2018 - 09:24am PT
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It's a ~500 word article. We don't really know anything other than a dude was killed by someone with 2 small kids nearby that were presumably his.
We don't know if he was a good dad or a bad dad. We don't know if he cooked the best meth in the valley or just the best salmon steaks.
Silly to guess at anything other than finding a different area to camp in.... far away... for now.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Jun 25, 2018 - 09:28am PT
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is it common to go camping solo with a 2 and 4 year old? Seems weird no?
Not at all. Especially if they were trying to give Mom some time and this camp ground sounded fairly close to where they live. It’s typically just a “step up” from the backyard sleep out.
When my son was a toddler we’d go camping at campgrounds that were less than 10 miles from our house...that way if things went to hell or the fog didn’t lift we could head home.
This case is just awful. I’m glad the kids are ok. I wonder if someone was just randomly shooting and it happened. Details will emerge.
Susan
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 25, 2018 - 09:34am PT
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The facts are not out yet, only the basic details are in the article.
He was discovered dead in the tent at 4:45 am with kids present. Maybe someone heard the shot and went to investigate. Maybe the kids were crying and someone went to investigate.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Jun 25, 2018 - 09:47am PT
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my tent and area are well defended.
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Late Starter
Social climber
NA
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Jun 25, 2018 - 10:03am PT
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^^
I always get a kick out of that rationale.
It's a comforting feeling, but realistically in a lot of scenarios a psychopath isn't going to wake you up first.
I'm not going to lie awake, ready at all times....but I guess there's always the chance it could help...
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Jun 25, 2018 - 10:31am PT
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jun 25, 2018 - 10:51am PT
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This is a terrible tragedy for those kids and the family that must carry on.
It's not weird to ask about camping with kids- people are just bluntly rejecting the notion that it is weird to go camping with small kids, even as one adult alone with them.
My parents went camping with me when I was a year old, maybe younger. My first overnight camping trip as a single parent with my kids was when they were about 4 and 6 yrs old, and we had many trips after that. I would have gone sooner, but as long as I was with their mother, she was not on board with camping with young kids. Some people just live bound in a fear-based paradigm.
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Chris Cunningham
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Jun 25, 2018 - 10:59am PT
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I've spent quite a bit of time in this park. Generally, it's popular with two demographic categories.
One category is a bunch of reasonably civilized, probably educated local people; some of whom go there to climb on the rocks.
The other catagory is composed of people who like to spray paint
graffiti is a language other than English, have an apparent preference for Tecate beer and don't seem to mind leaving piles of empty Tecate cans next to their graffiti.
It's not an urban park where wandering around by yourself, with your guard down, is well advised.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Jun 25, 2018 - 11:39am PT
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Hope the police do know more. Also, tragic for those kids that will likely benefit from short term and longer term care.
Maybe,is tick season is mostly over? Rattlers may be about? Carry sunscreen, and an extra harness? Hang a rope to the left, and start a conversation with the homies about chalk being cheating?
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Jun 25, 2018 - 02:29pm PT
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^^^^. Ummm. Four chairs in that picture. Plot thickens.
Susan
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 25, 2018 - 02:31pm PT
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The four year old should be able to say if someone else was with them. The article said experts in child interviews were being called in.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 25, 2018 - 02:35pm PT
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Deceit is imprinted in Pfizer and Allergan's "corporate DNA
Just google Allergan corruption and ethics.
He worked for Allergen, big big big pharma.
They might have off'ed him if he was ready to spill some serious damaging corporate beans ......
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 25, 2018 - 02:43pm PT
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Nobody heard the shot? If it was up close and personal that means the gun was suppressed, had a silencer. Of course anything bigger than a .22 is still going to make some noise, but most folks won't recognize it as a gunshot. Silencer = pro.
That or a flukey shot from far away...
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 25, 2018 - 02:50pm PT
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Read the last link. Yes, gunfire were heard.
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BigB
Trad climber
Red Rock
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Jun 25, 2018 - 02:53pm PT
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His wifes statement seems a lil weird to me...
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Bargainhunter
climber
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Jun 25, 2018 - 02:59pm PT
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There is a trend of these types of shootings in that park. Perhaps it's the same sociopathic perp? Kind of like the Ten Sleep shooter who killed multiple people?
Further details here:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-father-killed-malibu-creek-20180625-story.html
I've spent plenty of time on trails there and adjacent areas of the Santa Monica Mountains. I've rarely seen anyone in the more remote nooks except for the occasional trekker or mountain biker on a fire trail road, aside from the crowded areas like Planet of the Apes wall etc. I'm sure many of you have climbed in the park. Perhaps it's time to isolate the mobile phone metadata during the occurrence of each shooting to see if there is a common phone present at all of them? Not that the shooter wouldn't know to leave his phone at home.
A previous victim was a wildlife researcher who offered to mount clandestine trail cams to help catch the perp. This could have been useful in hindsight.
The recent victim's wife was an OBGYN studying for exams, doubt she was psycho. As for the Big Pharma conspiracy theories, some of you watch too much TV.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Jun 25, 2018 - 04:17pm PT
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Trip wire's with cans works great.
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Bargainhunter
climber
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Jun 25, 2018 - 05:56pm PT
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is it common to go camping solo with a 2 and 4 year old? Seems weird no?
I road trip with my 4 year olds frequently. Every trip between CA and the PacNW when we get sleepy, we just pull over up some random forrest service road, drive up a few miles, and throw down the tent at an pullout for a impromptu bivy. Near Lassen, Shasta, Klamath, Mt. St Helens, Mt Baker...no problems ever.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Jun 25, 2018 - 09:25pm PT
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if it was random, then one of the kids could have been randomly shot. nawmean?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jun 25, 2018 - 09:48pm PT
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A noise likely woke him up and he shot himself by mistake.
Either that or he had an unsecured weapon in the tent and one of the children did it by accident.
Either way, a tragic case for the kids.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 25, 2018 - 10:01pm PT
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...and the gun magically disappeared.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Jun 25, 2018 - 10:45pm PT
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I hope the mommy has a better alibi than "I was home studying by myself". They'll start with her and work outward if they can eliminate her.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Jun 25, 2018 - 11:11pm PT
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 26, 2018 - 10:20am PT
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I'm giving Werner and his Pharma conspiracy the win on this.
To wrap it up and put a ribbon on it they need a homeless guy as a patsy.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 26, 2018 - 10:54am PT
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The officials immediately said they are not considering suicide.
If there was a gun found in the tent, you would have to consider suicide until the coroner ruled it out.
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BigB
Trad climber
Red Rock
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Jun 26, 2018 - 01:04pm PT
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GoFundMe is over $91,000
read the article^
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 26, 2018 - 01:12pm PT
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Gang initiation, an altercation with someone in the park earlier who came back to settle the score, or the wife showing up and doing it seems more likely to me It always strikes me as odd that people speculate about the mythic 'gang initiation' thing and rarely consider the possibility that it could have been a reckless gun owner. I've been out a number of times (elsewhere) and seen yahoos shooting guns off in the direction of a trail or at a trailhead where it is very likely that others will be in the area.
Having said that, this is really troubling to me. I've taken my kids out camping when they were only a little older than the victim's kids. I can't imagine what the family is dealing with right now.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jun 26, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
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Just want to observe that this thread seems to have a distinctly higher than average number of moronic postings regarding it being suicide or accident, when NO GUN WAS FOUND IN THE TENT AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO THINK THE DECEDENT HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE SHOOTING, INTENTIONALLY OR BY ACCIDENT.
And no, the government does not close down campgrounds and expel everyone when someone commits suicide or dies in an accident.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 26, 2018 - 03:45pm PT
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Shot came from a distance. That would rule out the mother. Why risk hitting the kids?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 26, 2018 - 03:52pm PT
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The taco gumshoe squad is on the case.
Should be solved in a few minutes.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 26, 2018 - 05:37pm PT
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We're workin' on it, Toker :-)
A key piece of the picture which we don't know: Where did the bullet penetrate the tent? It either went through the side, where the shooter can't see a target, or through the screen where the shooter, especially with a flashlight, could see his target. A good tactical flashlight would have blinded the unfortunate victim.
I can't imagine how those poor kids are processing this.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 26, 2018 - 06:52pm PT
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Shooter had an elevated position higher than the victim. Bullets are not required to enter the chest at 90 degree angle.
Not too hard, considering the victim was on the ground and the area is not dead flat.
Bullet could have entered from the side as well.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 26, 2018 - 07:26pm PT
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You automatically have a 5ft elevated advantage(unless yer Toker) over someone lying on the ground. Bullet could also have entered from the side as well.
I see Rurp deleted his post. Good call.
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A Essex
climber
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Jun 27, 2018 - 05:32am PT
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Couchmaster is typical Trump worshiper
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 27, 2018 - 06:20am PT
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" Build the f*#king wall."
Walls don't stop, or even slow down pure evil.
End welfare for border hoppers, no squat and drop citizenship, and the kill the totally absurd 4 decade old failed "War on Drugs"... and we'd stop attracting the majority of those who don't want to contribute/work in a positive way.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jun 27, 2018 - 08:59am PT
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@Somebody et al.--
Here's a great website with what seems to be some of the best, most balanced research on immigration that I have found:
https://www.justfacts.com/immigration.asp#crime
They don't pull punches and fully acknowledge ambiguity, but while legal immigrants are by and large very law abiding, alas, the same is not true for illegals. Here's the money quote from the crime section of the page--and everything is carefully cited:
NOTE: Due to limitations of government crime data, most of the facts below combine all non-citizens into a single category. This category is comprised of people who live in the U.S. legally and illegally. The legal non-citizens undergo background checks before residing in the U.S., while the illegal non-citizens do not.[727]
*** Based on U.S. Census data from 2011 to 2015, immigrants who remain in the U.S. and:
are U.S. citizens are 79% less likely than the general U.S. population to be incarcerated in adult correctional facilities.
are not U.S. citizens are 7% more likely than the general U.S. population to be incarcerated in adult correctional facilities.
are from Latin America are 5.1 times more likely to be incarcerated than immigrants from Europe and 6.3 times more likely than immigrants from Asia.[728] [729]**
So, yeah, a wall is probably not the way to go, but that don't mean all is hunky dory with illegal immigration. And let's not conflate legal and illegal under the wholesome banner of "immigrants." Clearly, there is a substantial difference.
BAd
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 27, 2018 - 09:25am PT
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So couch trolled a bunch of you.
Then of course Werner never met a conspiracy he never liked.
(Could monolith be one of those pussies that whines about reaching my bolts?)
It won't do the kids any good, but I hope they solve this.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jun 27, 2018 - 09:57am PT
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So, yeah, a wall is probably not the way to go, but that don't mean all is hunky dory with illegal immigration. And let's not conflate legal and illegal under the wholesome banner of "immigrants." Clearly, there is a substantial difference.
BAd
Thanks for providing an interesting counterpoint to the standard lib line of "illegal immigrants are less likely to commit crime that native Americans . . ."
I spent a few minutes Googling it as I've been a bit skeptical, being a follower of crime reports and living in a state with a pretty good amount of "immigrants" (I am not really sure that is the right word to describe young people who are here illegally for vague periods of time, but whatever.)
It seems to me that the "research" that shows illegal immigrants are less likely to commit crime is basically a joke and is based on things like asking prisoners whether they are in the US illegally, and, not surprisingly, not too many of them raise their hands! The other type of "research" is to the effect that immigration has been trending up over the past few decades, crime has been trending down, so voila, immigrants commit fewer crime! I suppose we could say things like watching Fox News causes the crime rate to go down too with logic like that.
I am not saying illegal "immigrants" commit more crime than natives, I don't really know, just that spending a few minutes trying to get a handle on this this shows that the "research" seems ideologically driven and basically a bunch of BS.
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Bargainhunter
climber
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Jun 27, 2018 - 12:39pm PT
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Folks: He was shot in the head.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Jun 27, 2018 - 12:49pm PT
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I can as camping or sleeping in a tent at a climbing area somewhere uphill from san Bernardino, single pitch area. up that windy road. Someone let loose with a gun after dark. We were luckily pitched up against a fallen tree as high/diameter as our tent so unless the bullets rained down he probably couldnt hit us sideways. Our poor friends were out in the open. I could see this as being an accident just as easily as being a targeted shootig down there.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 27, 2018 - 01:11pm PT
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Further to what Tooth said, above: During the years we were putting up climbs at Zeke's Wall (in Washington, a few miles west of Index), we often felt like we were in a war zone. The logging road network we used to access the wall was hugely popular with the local off-road vehicle crowd, and if there were two things they loved even more than driving around up there, it was drinking and shooting.
They were always friendly, and tended to do most of their shooting with huge dirt banks as backstops, but I sometimes felt that it was only a question of time before the mix of guns and alcohol led to serious injury or death. Probably of one of their own number, but possibly some climber/hiker/rider who just happened to be in the path of a stray bullet.
In the end they got themselves banned from the whole area because their irresponsible driving habits led to torn-up roads and damaged salmon-spawning streams. Probably saved human lives as well as salmon lives.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 27, 2018 - 01:22pm PT
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Folks: He was shot in the head.
He was offed 1st degree, not some stray bullet.
Meanwhile .... stuportopo armchair investigators come up with a million stray bullet scenarios .....
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jun 27, 2018 - 01:24pm PT
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I've not any children so no context, but is it common to go camping solo with a 2 and 4 year old? Seems weird no?
My kids are now older but that 2-4 year old range was a total blast to camp and even backpack with them. I even did solo "Father/daughter" "Father/son" backpacking trips with them each year at that age. One mile in, set up camp, horse around, make a fire, catch a small fish, s'mores. go home day 2. Some of my fondest memories.
Sad story.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jun 27, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
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the immigrant crime rate is lower because illegals are afraid to talk to la migra...perhaps...
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 27, 2018 - 10:27pm PT
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Yup, let's blame the usual suspects. Illegals are the problem; not guns.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jun 27, 2018 - 10:49pm PT
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I'll go with the killer being a PTSD afflicted homeless Vet sniper living in a cave above the park.
Or Colonel Mustard in the parlor with a candlestick.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Jun 28, 2018 - 06:20am PT
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I've not any children so no context, but is it common to go camping solo with a 2 and 4 year old? Seems weird no?
My girls are 2 and 4 and im leaving tonight for the Juan De Fuca trail. So no, not weird to hike with kids.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jun 28, 2018 - 02:09pm PT
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Malibu CSP is what I would consider an "urban" park. It's close to high-density population areas some with with gangs and it's on a major thoroughfare between the San Fernando Valley and the beach which is highly used, especially this time of the year.
I'm not going to speculate on who did this (or the other shootings) but keep in mind (those of you who are not familiar with this area) it's not out in the boonies, it doesn't take a big effort to go there from pretty much any part of the L.A. Basin or Ventura and a very mixed demographic uses the park.
All of this just makes it harder to figure out what happened unless they're lucky and have some good clues or forensic evidence.
Condolences to family and friends of the deceased.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Jun 28, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
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I'm sure the fine deputies of Lost Hills/Malibu Station will catch the suspect.
you mean the station fattrad worked out of? good luck with that.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 29, 2018 - 09:45am PT
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Emery's death was tragic and those guys that confronted him were all serious aholes. However I would not call it murder in the classic sense (intending to kill someone). One of them sucker punched Emery who fell to the ground and hit his head.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 29, 2018 - 11:24am PT
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I guess that the Cali thing of background checks for ammo is making for a safer world.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 29, 2018 - 12:10pm PT
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I guess that the Cali thing of background checks for ammo is making for a safer world.
The "bullet button" release on Kali AR's has doubtless saved millions of children and kittens.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 29, 2018 - 12:23pm PT
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Yeah, but they are hell on fingernails.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 29, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
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Yeah, how dare the voters approve a measure to help keep ammunition away from criminals.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 29, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
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Yeah, the Chris Rock plan to end gun violence.
$5K/ bullet!
Sounds reasonable to me (it'd make me wildly rich).
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 29, 2018 - 12:34pm PT
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You could upgrade to the double wide.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 29, 2018 - 01:19pm PT
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mono; always the troll.
but then perhaps for you it would be.
Show us your courage anonymous troll!
I can't imagine how sad a life must be when one actually enjoys pestering others hiding behind an avatar. I'm fortunate to still have a few friends alive and more resources than most, which I hope to apply to worthwhile causes.
How sad would life be if all I could do for fun is troll others.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 29, 2018 - 01:22pm PT
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Luv your fantasies, Toker.
That tall guy can't reach a midgets bolts was a good one.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jun 29, 2018 - 02:36pm PT
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Yeah, how dare the voters approve a measure to help keep ammunition away from criminals
Fet, the "voters" are easily fooled.
There are three types of people in this world.
Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 29, 2018 - 04:09pm PT
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the "voters" are easily fooled.
Of course it’s the only way to explain Trump.
I think I voted against the ammo law because I didn’t want to ban large capacity magazines. I’m generally against banning things for law abiding people but I’m okay with regulating to make it harder for criminals to get things. I’m okay with paying $1 for a background check if it means less ammo in the hands of criminals. The easier it is for criminals to get things the more likely they’ll have them and the more likely they’ll use them.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 29, 2018 - 07:31pm PT
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Back in the day, journalists listened to police radio traffic. When the cops responded to a shooting, so did a reporter.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Jun 30, 2018 - 01:58am PT
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It's shocking that every news item about someone killed by a bullet, turns into a gun ownership issue. You're arguing about two different things. And yet, in every news item about everyone killed by a bullet, someone obtained ownership of the gun at some point. It seems like if you look at the timeline, the only reasonably possible way of stopping (or slowing) this is by regulations at the time of purchase, for many reasons
1. Education - Accidental deaths are a leading preventable cause.
2. Mental Health assessment - Background check
3. Legal Assessment - background check
4. Ability assessment- similar to recurring driver's test, every ten years or so.
In short, you have a license to carry and purchase, that is tied to federal and state databases, and must be updated like a drivers' license.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 30, 2018 - 10:16am PT
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We need more common sense paddle laws... it's for the chirren. The time to end paddle violence is now.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 30, 2018 - 05:50pm PT
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You don't have children.... Nobody needs a paddle that big.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Jun 30, 2018 - 06:55pm PT
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Chaz,for what it's worth I was a reporter for our local newspaper and every time a call came in from Sheriff or Fire I was called to check it out.....immediately. And even followed up on it if questions were not answered.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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a guy in a kayak vs paddle surfers. everyone has a paddle why the need for a machete?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Well put tut. If one doesn't believe that guns facilitate these random acts of violence, he or she is not paying attention. Still, in the current climate, paddles will be banned before guns are regulated.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Chaz,for what it's worth I was a reporter for our local newspaper and every time a call came in from Sheriff or Fire I was called to check it out.....immediately. And even followed up on it if questions were not answered
You're Old School, Lynne. You'd never last a day in today's newsroom.
Here's how it's done today:
The San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department bomb squad on Wednesday evening, June 27, blew up old ordnance found in a rail yard in Rialto.
“It was done because it was too unsafe to move,” the Fontana Police Department’s Twitter message said.
Businesses and homes in the area of Sierra Avenue and the 10 Freeway were evacuated before the controlled explosion, the Rialto Police Department said in a Twitter message.
The streets around the railyard were reopened by 8 p.m., officials said.
https://www.sbsun.com/2018/06/27/sheriffs-bomb-squad-blows-up-unstable-ordnance-in-rialto-rail-yard/
Here's another shining example of *journalism* today:
Sheriff’s deputies are searching for a motorist who shot at the occupants of another car and wounded one during a road rage incident in Highland.
Deputies responded to a report of a shooting at 4 p.m. Monday at Fifth Street and Tippecanoe Avenue in Highland, according to a San Bernardino County sheriff’s news release.
The occupants of two cars exchanged words and got out of their vehicles. Then a man took out a gun and began shooting at people from the other car, the release said.
One person was shot and was treated at a local hospital for a non-life threatening wound, according to the release.
The shooter was described as a man in his 30s driving a late model silver Nissan Sentra, the release stated.
Any witnesses or anyone with information about the road rage shooting investigation can contact the Detective Bureau at the sheriff’s Highland station at 909-425-9793.
https://www.sbsun.com/2018/06/27/shooter-in-highland-road-rage-incident-sought-by-detectives/
Reporters today just sit on their asses and wait for the authorities to contact them, and tell them what to print.
It's an insult. Especially since this Mickey Mouse rag recently started charging a fee to read this crap, saying the fee would go to "support quality journalism".
That's exactly what I was talking about in the journalism thread when I said journalism is dead.
If these hacks covered Watergate, Nixon would have served out his full term, and the *news* would have read "Nixon is not a crook. No other details are available."
most of the reporters who did that were black panthers...
"The ink is black, the page is white..."
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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the la times went from 450 journalists to under 50 in the last 10 years alone...
Due to capitalism?
People have always wanted to get their "news" as quickly as possible. When I lived in New York I would see people standing in long lines in bad weather to get the day's first edition of the Post, the Daily News or the Times.
Today they get up and go online.
The internet has a lot more to do with the shrinkage of newspapers than capitalism ever could. It will interesting to see how the new owner - a hugely successful capitalist - will do with the paper.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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My only connection to the news business - besides being a consumer of news - comes from throwing papers when I was in junior high. (the same rag I quoted up-thread)
The business model for decades was the news gathering was supported by advertising, and the distribution was paid for by subscriptions and news rack revenue.
The advertising still brings income, while the distribution expenses via internet are a small fraction of what it once cost to source paper and ink, print the papers, and pay someone to deliver the hard copies.
If papers are going broke it's because their product is sh#t nobody wants.
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ExfifteenExfifteen
climber
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paddles will be banned before guns are regulated.
Let's be honest at least. Guns are regulated.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Let's be honest at least. Guns are regulated.
Yeah, especially in Kalifornia. There should be NO shootings in Kalifornia.
Oh, right... the guns come in from elsewhere. But, you know, if I'm not mistaken, murder is illegal. Felons having guns is illegal. Most Kalifornians carrying guns in public is illegal. Etc.
Somehow (it apparently defies imagination), these evil guns now and then get up and do bad, bad things. The existing laws just don't seem to matter to these guns at all.
For shame.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Madbolter, you've disproved your own maxim. If firearms were well regulated, then why the proliferation?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Madbolter, you've disproved your own maxim. If firearms were well regulated, then why the proliferation?
I'm sorry, but I don't understand your question, much less the supposed "disproof." (BTW, you do realize that "well regulated" is a phrase that has now picked up lightening rod status in this debate, but our founders meant merely, "Well trained and equipped." Probably not the best turn of phrase in this context, unless you are intentionally trying to be ambiguous.)
Do you believe that "regulated" implies or outright means "no guns" or "a perpetual reduction in the number of guns?" And why would you think that, if you do?
Unless you have "regulation" that directly addresses the number of guns, why would you expect "regulation" to have any effect on the number?
Moreover, how do assessments of the efficacy of "regulation" in the sense of "reduction" explain the fact that as the number of guns (and gun owners) in this nation has perpetually gone up, crime statistics do not follow? In fact, for decades crime, including violent crime, has been perpetually decreasing. So, what does "number" have to do with it, and what do you propose to do about "number" and why?
What do anti-gunners want? I mean, seriously. Apart from absolutely effective totalitarianism, how do anti-gunners propose to get from where we are to the supposedly "better" state of affairs. "Reduction"? HOW? What laws would you pass, and how would you POSSIBLY enforce them? (Remember prohibition? The "war on drugs"?)
I am honestly baffled about what realistic, practical steps anti-gunners propose, as well as how those steps (whatever they might be) are supposed to be causally connected to reducing the sorts of incidents that trigger these threads in the first place.
If you think that, for example, taking my gun away (and those of the tens of millions of people like me) is going to have the SLIGHTEST effect on the sorts of crimes that trigger these threads, then you are flat-out delusional. Banning cannot work. I just don't get it. WHAT laws would satisfy you?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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You forgot the "militia" part after the phrase "well regulated". Somehow I don't think that was unintentional.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ The only intentional part of leaving it out was that YOU didn't include it, and I agree that it's irrelevant.
It's irrelevant because our founders repeatedly and clearly defined the term "militia" to mean "the people." That consistency included both federalists and anti-federalists alike. And they starkly contrasted the people with standing armies or what we now call the "national guard."
https://www.quora.com/What-do-the-terms-%E2%80%98arms%E2%80%99-%E2%80%98well-regulated%E2%80%99-and-%E2%80%98militia%E2%80%99-mean-in-the-Second-Amendment
Our SCOTUS may from time to time invent brand new meanings, but that practice plunges us into the tyranny of the SCOTUS. The constitution has clear-cut meanings, and it also contains the mechanisms for change. But when the SCOTUS cuts the constitution loose from its original meanings, thereby changing it upon a whim with political finger to the wind, it goes beyond its constitutional powers and voids the method IN the constitution for changing the constitution.
There is no vagueness in "militia." Any vagueness is now introduced long after the FACT for political purposes.
The irony to me is that the left decries recent SCOTUS decisions AS mistakes made by a politicized SCOTUS. But the left merely wants to have its own control over a tyrannical SCOTUS.
Both factions have fully embraced the practice of USING the SCOTUS to convert the constitution into whatever they want it to be, and that without employing the actual process for change built into the constitution. Hence, both sides recognize that the political holy grail is to gain political control over the SCOTUS and thus have the power to CHANGE the constitution without the prescribed process.
Finally, the second amendment does not grant any rights. The second amendment simply references a pre-existing and universally-presumed right. Modify or eliminate the second amendment, and you have changed nothing about the right it references. And ANY government that would seek to eliminate that right is illegitimate, which is precisely the stake our founders put into the ground.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ No, YOU look it up. I've provided the link above.
"Arms" at that time included military-grade weapons that make our standard handguns pale by comparison. And our founders CLEARLY referenced ANY "arms" that individuals could carry, deploy, and use as individuals.
As the military technology employed by potential enemies would improve, so would the right to be comparably armed.
Again, there just is no ambiguity here, and arguments to the contrary are not anchored in the surrounding raft of documents left to us by both the federalists and anti-federalists alike. Any supposed "lack of clarity" today is based purely and solely in partisan wishful thinking.
It's why "originalism" is so important. If you want to change the constitution, there's a prescribed method, and that method is NOT to just change up the meanings of the terms and phrases however a particular, highly-politicized SCOTUS wishes at any point.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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the phrase "bear arms" has a specific definition at the time it was written in that doesn't include simply the purchase or handling of a rifle
That particular argument does not hold up against either the actual history of firearms in the late 1700s nor actual SCOTUS perspectives.
To the former, look at this link:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/04/03/firearms-technology-and-the-original-meaning-of-the-second-amendment/?utm_term=.2c79d302ac2e
To the latter, from the same link:
"In District of Columbia v. Heller, the court observed:
"Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 849 (1997), and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35-36 (2001), the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding."
So, this left-wing wishful thinking amounts to "bordering on the frivolous." The SCOTUS has never interpreted the rights enshrined in the constitution in the way you say. And our founders were very aware of repeating arms as well as the potential for much more devastating weaponry.
The "limited to muskets" argument is flat-out ridiculous.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Read the first parts of this Thread and then the last page. How can this go from 2 little girls in a tent with their father shot in the head to healthcare, racial problems and gun rights? Perhaps we should be honoring the family that has been devastated. Jess' sayin'.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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It drifted that way because the anti-gunners USE every such incident as another vehicle by which to float their agenda and utterly failed "gun-control" arguments.
If you actually DO look at how this thread drifted, you'll see precisely what happened.
I consider so-called "gun control" to be a litmus test of what little actual constitutionality and freedom remains in the "land of the free and the home of the brave" (that at this point really is neither).
So, when the left PERPETUALLY treats such tragedies as opportunities to stump for their agenda, people like me are going to fight that agenda in each such venue. If you don't like this particular thread drift, then how about rebuking by name/handle the gun-control advocates who actually were responsible?
Let's see if you're up to that challenge.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Perhaps we should be honoring the family that has been devastated. Jess' sayin'.
huh, did they find a cure for cancer?
why did "god" allow this to happen?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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madbolter1, the Taco has changed. when I entered the campfire thread drifters were called on it. You could deviate a bit, but not much. Now it's not drifting, rather a torrent running wild.
I don't need to rebuke by name. People know what they say and do.
10b4me, not quite clear what you're saying. I was merely saying we should respect the family and not cluttered this thread with other topics.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ I get that, and I myself really dislike how these tragedy threads get co-opted for political agendas. But I've stopped "just letting it slide." The Bill of Rights is the line in the sand. If anti-gunners want to make such threads their venues, then in such venues we'll have such discussions. The alternative is that the anti-gunners could exhibit a shred of common sense and realize that such tragedies have NO relevance to their particular agenda.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Madbolter,
You're wrong. The "militia" has never been synonymous with the "people". Moreover, your cites are far from reliable. You have an op-ed piece by a guy from the Cato Institute and you quote Scalia in DC v. Helller, which overruled 50 yrs. of precedent. In fact, that quote you cited shows what a disingenuous, arrogant crapbag Scalia was. His whole spiel (and it's just that, a spiel, not a coherent legal philosophy) is that the Constitution must be interpreted according to what the Framers intended. One, that would undermine 200 yrs. of earlierjurisprudence, which did not abide by this view. Is he the only one in 200 yrs. to understand the Constitution? Two, in DC he asserts that the 2nd Amendment protects all types of guns, even those newer ones that the Framers never contemplated. If they never contemplated it, how could they have intended the Amendment to govern it? The short answer is that they couldn't. Scalia used the Framer's Intent argument to shoot down laws he didn't like, and abandoned it when it was inconvenient.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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The "militia" has never been synonymous with the "people". Moreover, your cites are far from reliable.
LOL... wow! I'm not saying that they were synonymous. "The people" is used in many contexts in which the founders were not referring to "the militia." But, conversely, when the founders (federalists and anti-federalists both) referred to "the militia," they were always referring to individual people who could organize themselves and be organized by the states for a wide range of self/state/national defense causes. The term, "the militia" was ALWAYS placed in contrast to all forms of "standing armies," be they federal or state.
That "op-ed" piece quotes federalists and anti-federalists. Whatever you think about the author or the piece itself is irrelevant. I cited that piece because it compiles such a list of well-known quotations from our founders. In many letters and articles surrounding the framing of the constitution, the decision-makers made it very clear what they meant and what they intended. And "the militia" meant any individual who could fight when joined up with other such men.
Our founders expected that the possession and BEARING of all sorts of arms, including firearms, would keep individuals "sharp" in their use and "well-regulated," which at that time meant "well armed, trained, and able to be quickly organized."
Have you even read the Federalist Papers, btw? I mean for yourself, not bits and pieces you might have been assigned bitd in some class? Do you have a heavily-annotated and cross-referenced copy laying around? I'll show you mine, if you'll show me yours. What about the Anti-Federalist Papers? Do you realize that both "sides" were on the same page about the very verbiage you now struggle with?
And your slams on Scalia are also irrelevant. If you can't refute his argument, then you've got nothing. His argument does hold regarding how other amendments are interpreted. It's only the second that anti-gunners balk at and claim: "The founders didn't imagine x, y, and z; so that amendment doesn't apply to x, y, and z." And that argument is frivolous.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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His whole spiel (and it's just that, a spiel, not a coherent legal philosophy) is that the Constitution must be interpreted according to what the Framers intended. One, that would undermine 200 yrs. of earlierjurisprudence, which did not abide by this view.
So, I've just gotta ask: Do you really believe in "the constitution?"
What does that phrase MEAN to you?
Does it mean, "Whatever the SCOTUS says it means at whatever point in time?"
You seem to think that what the founders intended is now irrelevant, so I'm not clear on what you think "the constitution" really is. What's the point in having a procedure to modify it if it can simply and easily be modified by merely five people at any time based upon any political whim?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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It drifted that way because the anti-gunners USE every such incident as another vehicle by which to float their agenda and utterly failed "gun-control" arguments.
If you actually DO look at how this thread drifted, you'll see precisely what happened. I think it is fairly clear Jeff Constine fired the first shot. Then ZBrown was right there with more tactical gear. Obviously neither of these were bad but they were pro gun and pages before anyone mentioned guns being a problem. Then there was couchmaster saying 'build the f* wall'. then fear was right there blaming the mexicans too. Badclimber also provided some bad information regarding mexican immigrants as well (notice how it weaves back and forth between non-citizens here legally, and those who remain and are citizens). then blahblah piled on the poor latinos as well.
In post #80 fat dad sarcasted "Yup, let's blame the usual suspects. Illegals are the problem; not guns." That was the first time guns were mentioned. Then D2R2 jumped on him and tokervillain did the same.
so madbolter this anti-gunner (you say it like it's bad thing) is telling you to go f* yourself.
and don't f*ing pretend like you don't know what we're asking for. We've made it clear.
increased and more effective background checks
legal age to purchase of 21
ban on assault style weapons
ban on bump stock or any method of converting to automatic (rapid) fire
ban on high capacity magazines
Clear definitions (regarding mental health) on who should be denied ownership
Increased spending on mental health
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Uh, Gumby: Please point out how and why my information was bad? The site uses the best available data, and it's not some ruse or subterfuge to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration. You don't draw any distinction?
Anyway, another digression. Sorry about that. The poor dude is still dead. Do the cops have any leads?
BAd
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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...We need to stay on topic here....
lol
Look until we can elect someone who will get tough with paddle violence nothing's going to happen. Damn Perception/Dagger/Pyranha (PDP)lobby owns these politicians.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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You pharmaceutical company conspiracy people really crack me up. Having previously been in the pharma industry in one role or another for more than 25 years, I can assure you that there is nothing that one person knows that is not known by dozens or hundreds more people, and there is nothing one person is doing that can’t be done by other people if they were assigned to do it. All R&D is done by teams and people are communicating about their research data constantly. The guy was an associate director level, which probably means he was managing a team of 5-20 people, who would be having team meetings discussing data and results at least once a week.
WTF do you people imagine as a scenario? Seriously, I have no idea.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Because I find this so ludicrous, I looked at his linked in profile. The poor guy was a formulations chemist, doing a job running a team that could be done by hundreds of other people in the industry. Every piece of data he had access to would be known by many other people. Everything at that stage is typically recorded in the company computers. The stage of drug development he worked at was very routine. There is nothing about that type of job or that stage in a drug development and manufacturing process that would at all, remotely, make someone a target.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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legal age to purchase of 21
ban on assault style weapons
ban on bump stock or any method of converting to automatic (rapid) fire
ban on high capacity magazines
Clear definitions (regarding mental health) on who should be denied ownership
Okay, so let's say that we all agreed to make all of the above into law. And let's say that all this legislation didn't have the desired result (which is what we "gunners" believe will be the case).
Are you DONE then, or was this slate of laws just the slippery slope that we thought it to be?
To be crystal clear, I would vote for even a constitutional amendment that would enshrine those ideas right into our constitution if I thought that it would: A) shut you up on gun-control once and for all; B) in NO way just set precedent for you to be even more restrictive when the above doesn't have the desired result.
But, see, we "gunners" know that there's NO way that either A or B will be the case, and that's why so many of us refuse to jump onto the slippery slope with you when none of the proposed legislation will have any measurable effect on the events that always produce the new wave of hand-wringing.
And, btw, it's NOT "clear what you want." The anti-gunner crowd ranges from demanding full-blown banning to just seeking universal background checks. Furthermore, nobody is clear on some CRUCIAL definitions, such as "assault style weapon, high-capacity, rapid-fire," and so on.
So, define the crucial terms clearly, and I'll jump on board the bandwagon with you to full-blown constitutional amendment... PROVIDED that that amendment clearly states something like, "... there shall be NO OTHER restrictions upon the right of law-abiding citizens to have and BEAR IN PUBLIC arms not otherwise restricted by this amendment, and 'constitutional carry' reciprocity shall be established throughout the States ensuring the right of law-abiding citizens to BEAR arms according to the least restrictive carry laws in place in any State."
But the anti-gunners won't go for any of this. And that's because they do NOT want there to be ANY accountability for the fact that the above slate of legislation will not have the desired effect, AND they have NO interest in having law-abiding citizens actually exercising their right to bear arms.
So, let's be clear that there is no compromise in principle, because the anti-gunner crowd really is not committed to legislation that could WORK; each new round of hand-wringing is about nothing but wedging in a bit more control then a bit more control, without any actual belief in the rights that the second amendment does refer to.
If you're an exception to the above paragraph, great! Then let's see genuine compromise that puts real teeth in enshrining the RIGHT to BEAR arms in the very amendment that also provides the restrictions you claim to seek.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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I'm overwhelmed at the outpouring of sympathy for the two fatherless children here. So nice to see humanity express itself by making sure to put the welfare of the kids first.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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So agree, canyoncat. I have to ask what has happened to caring and common decency. I am so turned off by the constant conversation regarding guns in threads that aren't even appropriate or related to the subject and I own a gun. I understood what you all were saying the first time. The second time was overkill and now it's just a turn off for semi intelligent human beings (me).
Phylp, I used to be a conspiracy person but I've since noted it's usually the obvious.
My kids and grand kids lost their Dad and Grandpa to illness and 10 years later still talk about their loss. I can't imagine how this tragedy will affect those two little ones.
Howdy QITNL, great to hear from you!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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High capacity magazines are easy to manufacture in a garage. AR 15s from an 80% receiver aren't much harder, nor are AK 47s milled from truck parts.
Banning these items would only take them out of the hands of noncriminals.
The genie will never get back in the bottle.
Want to stop school shootings (yeah I know this wasn't one)?
Change the paradigm of who the cool kids are from the jocks and the good looking (or rich) kids to the kid that stands up to bullies and engages the victims socially, trying to create a world that all want to be a part of.
Nah, thats counterintuitive, lets just march and whine.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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From Fat Dad...
Two, in DC he asserts that the 2nd Amendment protects all types of guns, even those newer ones that the Framers never contemplated.
From the SCOTUS majority opinion, written by Scalia...
“Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”
“We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those "in common use at the time.’ 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.”
“It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service – M-16 rifles and the like – may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty.”
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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From the SCOTUS majority opinion, written by Scalia...
Not gonna work, Kris. According to Fat Dad, Scalia was a "crapbag," so that one ad hominem is sufficient to sweep aside all of Scalia's reasoning and context without consideration.
After all, when you "know" that some version of the SCOTUS is "wrong," but you've abandoned "originalism," you've got no objective anchor into what "the constitution" even IS. All you've got left is doing everything possible to ensure that the SCOTUS is loaded by the "interpreters" YOU want, so that "the constitution" BECOMES your preferred interpretation. Forget that pesky change-process! Interpretation is what you want, and the best interpretation is the one that is entirely cut loose from what the constitution actually meant when it was ratified.
Sadly for the left-faction, at present the right-faction has "won" at just the right point in history to load the SCOTUS in their factious way. When factions and "interpretations" define what "the constitution" even IS, well, you gotta win that faction-war. At this point in factious history, the left has lost that war for decades to come.
Majesty Cakeshop, unions, gun-control... all just the start. Country is going to Hell in a handbasket, and it's all the fault of "crapbags" like Scalia that just won't MAKE "the constitution" into what "it" is supposed to be in our time.
Or, you could be happy that in Gorsuch we got an "originalist" who might just help to return the SCOTUS to non-factious thinking.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Not sure the point that Kris was trying to make with his Heller cites. I review those passages and see typical Scalia rhetoric. He mentions a subject, as if to confirm that he had at least acknowledged that issue but then declines to delve into other areas that might make it difficult or impossible to reconcile those with the holding he wants to reach. He discusses briefly the
concept of a militia and it’s application to modern weaponry, but purposefully steers clear of a historical review of that issue because it would not jibe with his snap conclusions he assers about M-16s. Ironically, even thosr who dislike Scalia (probably a majority of lawyers) would all admit that he is brilliant, but most, like me, have little respect for him as a jurist because he is so disingenuous. You can see from a mile off what he wants to decide and can easily observe the gymnastics he engages in to get there.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Mass stabbing and no one killed.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dad, My point is simple.
First, Scalia wrote the majority opinion, representing the views of the five justices who voted against D.C. It's not just his personal opinion, it represents the opinion of the court. If any of the other four found his opinion out of line with theirs they could have written an opinion to clarify their position, all at the same time as voting the majority. Not one did. They stood with Scalia's opinion, although they almost certainly had a lot of input. So if you say that scalia was being disingenuous, you should say the majority of Court was disingenuous.
But what we have in the three paragraphs I quoted, are three statements clearly stating that there are limits to the 2nd Amendment, and what some of them are. In the third paragraph he begins with an explanation of why some can argue in favor of legal M-16's. Then comes the word "But," and he offers the Court's opinion as to why they shouldn't be.
I remember when the decision came down, there was much talk about this aspect of the opinion.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Kris,
That the four other conservative justices did not author a concurring opinion is not surprising. Thomas doesn't have an original thought in his head. Alito is more rigidly conservative than Scalia, hence his nickname "Scalito" when he was on the Court of Appeal. Roberts only occasionally shows pangs of conscience, such as when he considers his legacy as Chief Justice and affirms things like the ACA. And who can figure out Kennedy? Heller was a big departure from long established precedent and it could be that none of the other four wanted to stick their necks out.
Here's an interesting criticism of Scalia's judicial philosophy by another right leaning jurist, Richard Posner, which explains some of my gripes about Scalia better than I could: https://newrepublic.com/article/106441/scalia-garner-reading-the-law-textual-originalism
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Heller was a big departure from long established precedent
I just ripped this from Wiki, but it's pretty straight up.
"...a landmark case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home, and that Washington, D.C.'s handgun ban and requirement that lawfully-owned rifles and shotguns be kept "unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock" violated this guarantee. It also stated that the right to bear arms is not unlimited and that guns and gun ownership would continue to be regulated."
You keep saying this departs from long established precedent. Can you clear this up for me?
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Yep, assault weapons and knives are equivalent. Las Vegas, Sandy Hook, Orlando, all could have been done just as easily with a knife.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Consensus List of proposed Illegal tools so far:
Guns
Knives
Paddles
I'd be happy with just the assault-Paddles banned. Those naval-style bent shaft ones... usually black... nobody needs that.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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I bet the suicide rate would be lower if it didn't just take a twitch of a finger to pull a trigger and they all had to use a Popsicle stick. Guns are the leading cause of death among suicides, but they are not the most common method. Using a gun insures 85% chance of success committing suicide. The most common method of attempting suicide (drug overdose) is successful in less than 3% of the attempts. Something to consider no matter which side of the fence you want to die on.
So yeah, at the very least the successful suicide rate is dramatically lower when a firearm is not readily available.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/guns-suicide/
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WBraun
climber
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Add StahlBro to it ..... ^^^^
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Those black paddles are something else though, ban them phukers!
You mean like this assault shovel?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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That assault-shovel can't be legal. Think of the little chirrens man.....
It might be though 'cause of the wooden stock. No bayonet attachment... hmmm.... Let me check the existing 10,000 shovel laws and get back to you...
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Got it, assault weapons are the same as shovels. A shovel could have easily been used at Las Vegas, Sandy Hook, Orlando.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Got it, assault weapons are the same as shovels.
Got it. Attempts at silliness will be met with stern reproach.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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I’ll take all the help I can get, even if it is inane, repetitive babble.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 17, 2018 - 09:37pm PT
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Reduce the national gun load from 300 million to 100 million (and hey, if you can't hold off an authoritarian government that stomps on the constitution like say TrumpCo with 100 million guns then you're all pussies).
Require the same legalities as owning, operating and transferring a vehicle.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 18, 2018 - 07:46am PT
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We don't need more laws. We need less stupidity.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jul 18, 2018 - 08:04am PT
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We don't need more laws. We need less stupidity.
So I guess a law against stupidity is out of the qwuestion?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 18, 2018 - 08:09am PT
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Maybe more signs against stupidity? None of us would be able to go anywhere then though...
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jul 18, 2018 - 08:11am PT
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How about more stupid people with more assault weapons?
I know, it's liberal Hollywood's fault.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 10, 2018 - 08:35pm PT
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The guy apparently had a rifle, but he was apparently arrested for burglary.
I suppose they are testing the rifle
If he is the killer then at least he's off the "parks"
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Oct 10, 2018 - 10:39pm PT
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if those kids had just been armed...
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Bargainhunter
climber
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Oct 11, 2018 - 01:05am PT
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I bet that’s the f*#king guy. Living in the woods, breaking into buildings to steal food, taking random potshots at people.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 11, 2018 - 09:18am PT
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And you think reporters always get things right?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 11, 2018 - 09:22am PT
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The report mentioned buckshot and he was found with a rifle....Hmmm...
One incident involved buckshot, the guy that died was shot with a rifle.
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otisdog
Social climber
Sierra Madre, Ca.
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Oct 11, 2018 - 04:29pm PT
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He was shot....I don't think they ever revealed what he was shot with....
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Oct 12, 2018 - 06:15pm PT
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I heard they're doing the ballistics testing/comparisons. Would be a big relief if this is the guy and they've got him now...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 12, 2018 - 06:45pm PT
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Curious, who did you hear that from?
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otisdog
Social climber
Sierra Madre, Ca.
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Oct 13, 2018 - 06:30am PT
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I heard it on the radio...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 13, 2018 - 07:16pm PT
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Thanks bh
Nicole Nishida, a department spokeswoman, said those results could come within a few days or a couple of weeks Huh?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Oct 13, 2018 - 11:46pm PT
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Huh maybe different tests one quick but could be inconclusive one more thorough but takes longer? Maybe there are multiple shootings and they have to test the rifle and the shotgun. Maybe the shotgun testb takes longer. Or maybe that's just the answer the lab they sent it to gave them.
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otisdog
Social climber
Sierra Madre, Ca.
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Oct 14, 2018 - 07:10am PT
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Shotguns are 'smooth bore' with many pellets in the usual load, which makes testing worthless . But if it fired a slug, the tests could reveal a match, but that would be rare due to lack of barrel rifling. Not many slug users out west.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 14, 2018 - 09:04am PT
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They can match the impact marks on the primer on spent shells.
Plus, I have 12 bore slug guns with rifling that can be matched, but shotguns are normally loaded with shot; hence the name.
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Sredni Vashtar
Social climber
out in front
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Oct 14, 2018 - 11:19am PT
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my hunch would be that most of these incidents are unrelated. I tend to avoid spending too much time around trail heads/car camping spots in the San Gabes as there are just some odd cats in the LA met area. Very surprised something like this would happen in Malibu creek though, reminds me of those bible college kids that were murdered in Jenner years back. Creepy.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Charges brought
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/07/us/camping-father-california-murder-charge/index.html
Prosecutors say a 35-year-old father who was fatally shot while camping with his daughters in June was killed by the same man who opened fire on a number of unsuspecting campers and motorists in the past few years.
Tristan Beaudette was shot once in the head on June 22 as he slept in a tent with his 2- and 4-year-old daughters at the Malibu Creek State Park in California. Investigators looking into the case then connected the homicide with a series of shootings in the park dating to November 2016.
On Monday, prosecutors charged a suspect of carrying out those shootings. Anthony Rauda, 42, was charged Monday with one count of murder, 10 counts of attempted murder and five counts of second-degree burglary, the LA County District Attorney's Office said.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Looks like they got their man. Now all they have to do is throw away the key. Some unsuspecting Dad indiscriminately killed while camping out with his kids in a public park.
They can match the impact marks on the primer on spent shells.
Of course the most that can do is put the shooter at a certain location if he leaves the shells lying around.
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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Rolled into court on a restraining table with a spit hood because of a previous out-burst in court. Sounds like the right guy!
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Bargainhunter
climber
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What a shitbag. Hope they drop him in a gang group holding cell while awaiting a permanent prison assignment.
Reminds me of the Ten Sleep shooter who shot that visiting South American climber in his tent, and was also guilty of killing some family members who stopped to help him on the highway, while he was feigning distress. Too bad these asswipes didn't confront a conceal carrier who could have solved their problem quickly.
Plenty of sociopaths among us. There was a local senseless killing in my town of a guy strolling on one of our urban trails a few of months ago. He was stabbed 37 times by a psychopath who ran up to him and started hacking away. The same psycho had just walked up to a random woman a few blocks away and started punching her in the face, then did the same a block away to another guy, knocking him down and beating him in the face (causing intracranial bleeding) before moving on to the stabbing victim. I can't image what the victims' families are going through. I'd want to break into the prison and beat the perp to death myself.
https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/crime/article219752530.html
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Bargainhunter
climber
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Most schizophrenics are not violent. This is more than just your average homeless schizophrenic. This is a homicidal recidivist criminal sociopath. His future is permanent incarceration.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Or a shove off a cliff...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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In Europe he would be out in 7 or 8 years, if that.
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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It just hit me -He looks like frickin' Manson in that picture!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Yeah just kill the guy, thats the easy way out. Avoids having to look in the mirror at ourselves and question whether or not we are doing enough about mental health. I am not going to pass judgment on the guy based on a newspaper article.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Avoids having to look in the mirror at ourselves and question whether or not we are doing enough about mental health.
The world is full of insane people. I'm beginning to think it's about a 50/50 split at best.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Straight Outta Crafton
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Jan 22, 2019 - 03:35pm PT
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In Europe he would be out in 7 or 8 years, if that.
In 2019 California, this Rauda guy's looking at some serious Community Supervision Probation.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 22, 2019 - 03:55pm PT
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^^^ Kamala Harris wants him for her campaign manager.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jan 22, 2019 - 04:02pm PT
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The fault is first not working intensively with new convicts using therapists and social workers, and later for repeat offenders, not locking up repeat criminals for a longer time period. This guy appears to fit into the latter group: "Rauda has a lengthy criminal record, including multiple convictions for illegal weapons possession in Los Angeles and Ventura counties, court records show. He previously lived in Florida and Texas, where he was convicted of assault, according to court records."
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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Apr 30, 2019 - 09:02am PT
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Doesn't seem like they were able to connect Rauda to Mattew Weaver disappearance yet?
It's mind boggling that Weaver is still missing and no resolution.
His hat, car key and torn t-shirt were found on/by the trail near where his car was found, a couple of months ago...but no further info.
Really wonder what kind of job was done by the police initially, since his items were laying by the trail for months - and dogs couldn't pick up on that (if they even bother to use dogs)
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Apr 30, 2019 - 05:07pm PT
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Weaver will likely never be found. Fires swept through in Dec and there's no body to find. - regardless of whether it was a murder or if he just had a bad accident messing around off trail.
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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Apr 30, 2019 - 09:09pm PT
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Fires did sweep through but his hat was found in pristine condition way after the fires, even his torn white t-shirt was found extremely clean for the circumstances.
They put out pictures of all the items as found, his car key also had undamaged plastic - found 25 feet away from his abandoned car: considering where the key was found I think it being an accident is very unlikely (though it seemed unlikely from the start considering all other things). He haven't lost the key - he texted his girlfriend about "crazy" stuff happening some time after he got there but no word about lost key and no attempt to call roadside assistance.
There's 50K reward posted...but still nothing.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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The facts with his case are definitely bizarre.
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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Yes... Whether Rauda is really the culprit remains a question - innocent until proven guilty and even then, with high publicity and known coverup history in the relevant PD - a lot of pressure to quickly solve the case...who knows what's to be believed. There're a lot of guys living out in those hills, some of whom are crazy and feel territorial about their area, some armed (my parent got threatened with a gun by one of them on a hike in SoCal a couple of years ago). Plus all the gangbangers.
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