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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 29, 2018 - 04:05pm PT
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Does a 20 Trillion in Republican National Debt and another >1.5 trillion per decade qualify as living beyond their means
Economists predict the National debt to increase even further than the usual trickle down predictions have claimed
doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different result, Trickle down = insanity
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2018 - 04:25pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WTF is with Trump demanding that defense spending go up, and education and other domestic spending go down? The U.S. is already the most highly militarized nation, by a big margin.
A sensible leader would want to invest in peace-time science and technology, like, say, clean energy, to empower future industries. Some by-product from military spending occurs, but in the meantime, all we have for our money are over-priced engines of death, which trigger-happy fools like John Bolton would like to use.
Trump seems to think that there is no way to win the economic war with China, so he wants to revert to a 1930s-era tactic of economic belligerence coupled with heavy military spending.
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
The Supreme Court, in Citizens United, ruled that money talks, talk is a form of speech, and freedom of speech is protected by the 1st Amendment. So, anyone, or anything (such as a corporation) shall not be stopped from exercising their freedom to spend money, such as to influence elections and politicians.
In a related twist of illogic, in the same case, the Supreme Court ruled that freedom of speech principles should be applied to a listener, and not just to a speaker. In other words, a listener has the freedom to hear whatever speech is available to him. Therefore, a corporate message can't be stifled, simply because a corporation has no constitutional rights. Corporations must be allowed to communicate a message, because intended listeners have a constitutional right to hear that message.
The next thing the Supreme Court of Dolts will rule is that foreign powers, such as Russia, can operate under the same logic as corporations, and can spend as much money as the want to influence elections and politicians.
Dastardly Donald, and Malevolent Michael, for the win.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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May 29, 2018 - 04:40pm PT
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The original Tea Party was mostly opposed to any new spending or taxes and fought for balanced budgets. Their body was quickly infected by Republicans with a zombie virus called corporate whorism. The disease also goes by the name "Freedom Caucus".
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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May 29, 2018 - 04:51pm PT
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feel free to pick up the slack for them Reilly. ;-)
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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May 29, 2018 - 04:55pm PT
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“them”
Lol
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Trump
climber
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May 29, 2018 - 05:04pm PT
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I don’t get it. The political idiots get themselves elected president while the political geniuses become posters on Supertopo. I blame reality’s misunderstanding of reality. No need for me to change my thinking!
Smoke ‘em if you’ve got ‘em!
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 29, 2018 - 05:18pm PT
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your not honestly concerned about 'living beyond means' nationally unless your first and foremost an anti-war anti-military advocate
true Xcon, in addition to taxing the massive profits churches rake in
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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May 29, 2018 - 05:41pm PT
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“Gutting regulations?” How about living beyond yer means as a nation and expecting yer neighbors to bail you out? You can’t have everyone retiring at 50. It just doesn’t work. Italy is like Greece, only 10 times worse. This could get ugly.
'living beyond yer means as a nation"
What does that actually mean?
This is a ripe area for discussion. Let's focus on Reilly's point about "retiring at 50". Just this morning my wife (who came to USA from Italy about 12 years ago) said "if you can make it to 50 in Italy, you are basically set." This was in the context of a discussion about how people in America don't seem to plan or save for retirement. I made the point that many people consider it hopeless because all the planning goes out the window if you have a low-paying job and multiple kids to send to college (a contestable argument), or anyone in your family has a major medical issue that drains your life savings. People either can barely survive in the present based on their perceived material needs, or they think that no amount of saving will protect them from expenses outside of their control, so they ignore saving for retirement.
My wife's response was that, in Italy, houses are relatively less expensive and most people can afford to buy and pay off any loans on a house before they retire... there are no major debts related to sending kids to college, or medical expenses. So people can survive on very little in their retirement years- and government paid pensions are very high compared to Social Security in America. This of course, presumes a government that provides education and medical care an retirement coverage.
And here we have the rubber meeting the road in the "living beyond our means" argument. If the average person consumes more resources from the government than they pay in taxes over their lifetime, how can the government survive? I haven't looked at the numerical details, but I would be interested to see lifetime deposits vs withdrawals of the average citizen with respect to the Italian government.
One aside from this discussion, is how much money is squandered by cronyism and corruption. For example, Berlusconi giving coveted political positions to attractive models who provided him sexual favors, and these positions come with very high lifetime pensions. Another aspect is how much money is lost to mafia/business/government schemes to divert national funds to private interests.
This is all very relevant for America too, to see what real data-driven models look like for lifetime pay-ins vs resource consumptions of the average American. Considering education as an "expense" is ridiculous and short-sighted because higher education is correlated with higher lifetime income and thus high pay-ins for taxes. As such, education should be seen as an investment by the government, just a like a person puts money in an asset that appreciates over time. It's not the same as blowing money on popcorn and coke at a movie. Similarly, investments in social causes that improve the socio-economic status of people are an investment if they result in greater employment and tax revenue, and reduced crime and law enforcement and incarceration costs.
But, our politicians are elected on 4/6 year cycles, and aim for numbers in those timeframes while the long-term benefits of education and socio-economic uplift programs are measured in decades. Our type of short-term planning leads us into the toilet, and is one reason why China is making better strides to advance their society than we are. They can afford to take the long view and make decisions that lead to better outcomes rather than what looks best before the next election.
If we were able to do multi-decade financial planning as a nation, we would invest in more:
 education at all levels (public pre-K, K-12, university, trade schools)
socio-economic uplift programs to give paths out of generational patterns of poverty and non-contribution to society. Figure out what sorts of investments lead to more people getting engaged in their communities and in gainful employment
corporate stimulus is good, but removing regulations that protect individuals and the environment are not. Carefully weigh the outcomes from giving X dollars for corporate stimulus (to indirectly stimulate private sector job creation, which has a very shaky track record), vs. directly creating government jobs that improve some aspect of humanity/society.
infrastructure renewal projects (creating jobs that generate cash flowing through local communities and being spent multiple times, giving employment to more people and generating more tax revenues with each exchange of the money)
The path of increased law enforcement and military spending while locking down everything else to a society that very few people want to be a part of. But somehow, this is the goal of one of our major parties, and the ideology has the support of almost half of our country.
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2018 - 05:54pm PT
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We already know what YOU do with your free time.
You waste it on this st00pid horesh!t to brainwash your head.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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May 29, 2018 - 05:57pm PT
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I guess the world is filled with all types.
I feel compelled in these political threads to exchange ideas and consider what would make the world a better place.
I don't see the attraction of calling each other names or insulting each other. It's on par with smearing your feces on the wall in terms of emotional and intellectual development.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
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May 29, 2018 - 06:07pm PT
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Great post Nutagain, even a duck could appreciate it.
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2018 - 06:14pm PT
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I always appreciate Nutagain's posts but not that hypocrite old goat frostback .....
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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May 29, 2018 - 06:35pm PT
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Thank you NutAgain!!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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May 30, 2018 - 06:11am PT
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How many years does a president have to serve to qualify for worst ever...?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 30, 2018 - 07:32am PT
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Nut, a thoughtful post, as always, and a propos anecdoctal evidence, if somewhat faulty. Italy’s real estate situation, as I’m sure you know, is not friendly to the young, hence so many 30 somethings living with Momma dearest. Secondly, one of the major sources of Italy’s woes is their banks’ high percentage of non-performing loans. They’ve done yeoman’s work on shoring up the banks these last few years and have reduced their non-performing loan portfolios considerably. Unfortunately, all this idiotic populism talk about leaving the Euro has caused investors to flea in droves for fear of the whole banking segment going tits up. Most Ite bank stocks are now trading at well below book value - true bargains if you can stomach the risk! Even crazier is the Ite bond market. Who in their right mind would buy Ite debt given the extreme risk of forfeiture? Currently 10 yr Ite gubmint bonds are selling at 3% - the same as US! Seriously? Look to that to double sooner than later, although I’m not sure 6% provides enough of a risk premium for me.
OK, back to our regularly scheduled ad hominum meaningless non sequitors.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 30, 2018 - 07:43am PT
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I very much doubt Trump even knows they are American citizens in Pweerto Reeeko as he pronounces it
The US President is a racist, everyone knows it, and those island people ain't white
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dirtbag
climber
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May 30, 2018 - 07:55am PT
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Stephen miller, Steve Bannon and Jeff sessions approve.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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May 30, 2018 - 11:54am PT
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bush ran up a 5 trillion dollar tab for the Iraq fiasco
im told Reagan did worse but its in aggregate
those are the bar's you gotta reach to be in the running for worst...
For financial damage, you might be right about Bush. That is a lot of money that could have gone to health care, or children's education or rebuilding infrastructure.
But the biggest damage Trump is doing, in my opinion, is to our political norms. Trump didn't invent the echo-chamber, or fake news, or tribalism, or corruption, or authoritarianism, or kindergarten attacks on opponents...
But he has amped all those up. He is doing Nixon style damage to our political system that is actually going to be harder to recover from than the financial damage from the Iraq war.
When the investigation into Nixon was getting towards its end, Nixon resigned in the face of impeachment.
If it turns out that the Mueller report shows that Trump has indeed done equivalent, high crimes and misdemeanors, I'm expecting a big "so what" from Republicans and Trump staying in office.
I hope I'm wrong on that...
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 30, 2018 - 02:00pm PT
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tRump’s attention span is pretty short (like a 4 year old). As his 6 bankruptcies and attrition rate attest, he has no long term planning or management skills. He will make his friends and family richer in the short term, and then bail leaving the economy in tatters. Typical GOP.
Hope they save enough for their legal bills.
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