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ElGreco
Mountain climber
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Mar 16, 2018 - 11:04pm PT
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I rarely post, but I just want to say how lucky I feel to have free access to the amazing life-coaching advice that has been flowing so freely. Especially on the tragic occasion of the loss of two driven, inspired and inspiring young men.
All of you who are quick to issue judgement and warnings: do you also comment at funerals of smokers who died of lung cancer? What about people who perished in cycling accidents? Did you warn them to sell that bike? Do you take it upon yourselves to stop pregnant women from drinking? Workaholic dads from being absorbed and away all the time? Do you warn people off drugs? What about driving (clearly the highest exposure to risk for most of us)?
People choose how to live their own lives. It's up to them to draw the line and to discuss its appropriateness with their own loved ones, if they wish. As far as climbing goes, I've met very few people, if any, who climb for anyone but themselves. In the mountains they seek peace, wisdom, beauty, motivation, inspiration. Let them decide what is appropriate and what is not.
Ryan and Marc Andre got very unlucky. It was not their boldness or recklessness that spelled their demise. As far as I can tell, they were close to completing their descent after their successful first ascent when a cornice collapsed high up, debris got funneled down their descent gully and swept them into a crevasse. Awful, harsh, ironic, undeserved bad luck.
The rest of us would do well to focus our attention in a more productive direction when faced with events like this that are tough to swallow - they are a stark reminder to all of us that we are vulnerable. For example, pitching into the discussion that Steve House kicked off a few weeks ago on FB seeking scenarios to inform his attempt to come up with a risk-assessment and decision-making framework in alpinism. Or Will Gadd's teachings on how to rate and address risk. Those folks have seen a thing or two. They are trying to pass some of their learnings on.
Contribute, refine, think. Then make your own decisions. And let others make theirs.
Ryan and Marc Andre, we thank you for your sincerity and inspiration, for the love of life that you so clearly embodied, and we honour your memory. Peace to your souls.
http://www.tommycaldwell.com/stories/2015/2/12/letter-home
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Mar 17, 2018 - 03:26am PT
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The tragic news of these two young men losing their lives in an alpine climbing accident hits very close to home. I did not know them but the connection is shared by most all of us here. Kudos to them for their proud love of sport, their accomplishments, and their efforts.
Would that we all
pursued our dreams with such vigor
In such beautiful places to dwell
regardless the costs
Walking between the footfalls of giants
we see them towering there
Among these great abutments
we know not which way the wind blows
My condolences to the families and friends of Ryan Johnson and Marc-Andre Leclerc
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Mar 17, 2018 - 06:16am PT
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Marc and Ryan don't deserve this treatment. This is not the place for this discussion. It is incredibly insensitive for people to keep discussing it here when you KNOW family and friends are reading.
Please take it elsewhere.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 17, 2018 - 09:39am PT
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It is not a "lifestyle" choice. It is a "deathstyle" choice made by one's brain that is no longer in control of it's choices. Reward centers in the brain are addicted to a stimuli that is controlling the individual replacing normal drives like love and contentment with the next route soloed.
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A linear-causal metric to try and determine WHY people do what they do will always be simplistic, especially when "normal drives" are proffered as the gold standard, deviation from which a pathology is indicated.
In most every field and endeavor, risk aversion is the best strategy to go nowhere.
Not everyone is made the same, and differences cannot be attributed to unconscious brain function feeding us dangerous impulses. There IS that, but the river runs deeper by miles.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 17, 2018 - 09:58am PT
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Imo, all's good with kingtut's overall post second above - as long as everyone understands that's his opinion.
I agree in part with this...
"This isn't a memorial service or even [just] a memorial thread. It's [also] one reporting on overdue climbers and now a reporting of the accident."
Not everyone is made the same...
Ain't that the truth.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Mar 17, 2018 - 11:02am PT
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Reward centers in the brain are addicted to a stimuli that is controlling the individual replacing normal drives like love and contentment with the next route soloed.
And who anointed you to be the one to decide what normal is for everyone?
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Mar 17, 2018 - 11:19am PT
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Its past time we stopped celebrating and enabling over the top risk taking by young people.
Young people have always taken more risk than their elders approved of. Do you have a prescription to accelerate the maturation of the prefrontal cortex?
And is this really some kind of public health emergency? Young climbers dropping like flies? Ridiculous!
as a Medical Doctor
Do you often diagnose people you have not examined? How 'bout I diagnose you?
Do you feel that you live "in service to others" and that you are advancing the "human condition" by being a doctor?
How much climbing did you get done while you were younger and working on becoming doctor?
These risks are totally worthwhile when . . . Extreme risks in climbing serve no further purpose . . .
In the opinion of a never-was-has-been who wants us, but even more so himself, to believe his tepid life of compromises has been on a superior path.
I have come to accept the idea that our lives, on a cosmic scale, are meaningless. But we can find meaning in life as individuals via the ways we each choose to live our lives.
Yet a path that one person finds meaningful might be anathema to another. Still it can be difficult, if one thought they were following a path that they found particularly meaningful, to not proselytize.
But what is truly galling is some blowhard as#@&%e know-it-all who resents others whom he sees having the meaningful experiences he may have missed out on after his path diverged to something 'purposefully advancing the human condition in a socially acceptable way,' and ignorantly projects his idea that those whose lives are or were fuller and more self-actualized than his will ever be, are or were nothing more than reckless and socially feckless.
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Mar 17, 2018 - 11:30am PT
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Another idiot doctor. Davis? I've had to save many ER patients from such.
[edit (after your several edits)]
Hah!
It's even worse than I thought. A surgeon? Well, I guess Ben Carson is a fine example of how that works.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Mar 17, 2018 - 11:36am PT
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well it’s unfortunate that because this was a situation that developed over time and so organically turned into a thread where people were, in part, memorializing friends, that the opportunity to start a new thread labeled “Johnson and Leclerc Memorial Thread” was missed.
and so then, despite the heartfelt memorial and condolence offering posts, along with repeated requests that people respect this space as an impromptu memorial... that kingtut and “the purveyors of objective truth” (tm) weren’t able to see this thread for what it had become and take the opportunity they had to start a new thread titled “Risk, Objective hazards, Children and the Enabling Public” [or some such], where all of those folks who think they’ve got this deal all sorted out, can clutch pearls and tut-tut-tut together... [and so a new thread, where i might have some interest in debating all of the surface deep malarkey being spewed on this thread]
but neither happened and so now here we are shItting in what could have been, to some, a helpful sandbox.
only suggestion i have is that if one of you [treez, big mike, etc?] who are directly affected by this feel the need to start a new memorial thread, know that at least i would delete my previous post from this one and paste it onto a new memorial thread...
i do think it is quite literally the least we as a community can do for the still grieving.
and i’d do it myself, but i know i am viewed, by at least some, as just another know it all keyboard warrior, and so don’t think i’m in a position to lead in this instance.
regardless of how this plays out here, i hope that any friends and family who do end up reading through this are able to see [and then ignore] the monday morning quarterbacking for what it is, while accepting some of the beautiful words that have been written by those who actually knew your friend and/or family member...
i hope that you find, in time, some peace.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 17, 2018 - 12:00pm PT
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"Rational" or truly calculated risk is essential to advance the human condition.
----
Again, what you are looking for is a direct causal result, where A does B, and all of us immediately benefit. A mechanistic protocol contingent on rules, in this case, the rules vaguely defined as being responsible to more then yourself, effecting positive changes to those other then yourself. However there is little to suggest that human progress over the long haul advances by dint of small sacrifices over the short term. There's also the risk of categorically labeling everyone taking big risks as pathological, pushed by unseen, diabolical hands, steadied only by the sober hands of reason and prudence. This is neat and handy, and enables us to divide people into discrete groups: selfish and altruistic, responsible and reckless, sane and addictive, and so on.
Of course life, and progress, don't move like this.
That much said, in my view, someone willing to take the big risks and who also wants to concurrently play the family games is someone who wants it both ways, and this rarely turns out well.
If fact the single climber who wants to risk the farm is not perforce selfish, and in a real way, by virtue of the motivation and inspiration his/her efforts might ignite, the single climber belongs to the world. However once you have dependents, you no longer belong to the world, but to your own little tribe.
That's my view, anyhow.
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John M
climber
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Mar 17, 2018 - 12:03pm PT
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good post nahooo.. I was writing something similar, but you said it better. Come on guys. These are both important subjects. Someone who knew them, please start a memorial thread. I want to hear the stories and get to know these two exceptional adventurists.
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ElGreco
Mountain climber
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Mar 17, 2018 - 12:26pm PT
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Kingtut,
Did you ever sit down with Dan Osman, Sean Leary or Dean Potter to ask them what their life goals were? Was making it to age 90 one of them? Or was it to lead deeply meaningful lives according to their own standards? What they did is beyond excessive by my standards. But they are entitled to theirs.
You say extreme climbing is "done". Should we have said the same after Royal and Batso climbed Half Dome and El Cap? Don't you know that it's about the journey, and not the destination? A goal focuses the mind and helps you go through the necessary steps.
Ryan and Marc Andre had done some extreme stuff. But that's not why they were swept on their descent. They got unlucky. Very unlucky. Does everyone who crosses the Khumbu icefall fall into the same category? Anyone who has ever crossed under a serac or a cornice? How about the 100s who get on the RNWF of Half Dome? That thing is active as hell, and there is recent proof. Would you get on the East Buttress of El Cap after last year's rockfall?
Everyone charts their own course. Yes, we have a duty to not let teenagers believe they can get away with anything on the mountains simply because luck has been on their side so far. After a certain point though, it's up to individuals to make their own choices. It's not our place to comment on them, much like it's not our place to comment on people's lifestyle, nutrition, house, car choices etc.
We can use incidents like these to deepen our understanding of objective hazards, their assessment and management. That's what Accidents in N American Mountaineering is about. Yet the same mistakes seem to be made over and over again. Rappel accidents. Protection that pulled.
If there's something that you must do for the collective good following an incident like this, contribute to our risk assessment and decision making frameworks.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Mar 17, 2018 - 02:18pm PT
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Fvck all you judgemental a$$holes. Rub some more salt in the.wound! I'm out.
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KyleO
Gym climber
Calgary, AB
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Mar 17, 2018 - 03:29pm PT
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Unreal how people like Dr Kingtut, with his programmed view points and beliefs can post here saying this nonsense.
You have obviously held these negative opinions for some time and you jumped at the chance to express this to an audience that was mourning the loss of a friend/family member/mentor/hero etc.
The accident analysis shows it was likely 100% objective hazard and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Anyone who lives an active lifestyle knows this can happen hiking/biking/trekking/climbing/scrambling/driving to the nearest gym to get an hour of cardio in. Can you quit posting these negative viewpoints on this thread, which is insulting to family, friends, climbing community etc.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 17, 2018 - 03:41pm PT
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I am wholly disgusted with the judgmentalism expressed by some here. And appeal to an MD as expertise on such questions is like appealing to expertise as a mechanic to justify pontification regarding medical questions. Both professions "work on complex systems," but neither gets you any credibility in the other! And it's no ad hominem to point out that fact. An MD knows NO more about human values than any other person, and medical training does NOT transcend into philosophical credibility regarding objective facts about right and wrong. An MD is not an ethicist.
Every MD I've known fits the same old saw: Often wrong, never uncertain.
I sincerely hope that the grieving close-friends and family will not take the judgmentalism of a VERY few here as evidence that most of the rest of us share the same OPINIONS. We do not!
I just don't see why on THIS thread we can't honor the dead, comfort the living, and save the pontification about right and wrong for some other venue.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 17, 2018 - 03:53pm PT
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I'm hesitant to post, because of the "Monday morning quarterback" angle of risk assessment after you have already observed the result.
So in an accident analysis, you try to stay objective/conditional as much as you can.
I accept that Marc-André and Ryan chose what they thought was an acceptable risk, when assessed at the start of the climb.
I agree with most of ElGreco's posts, except the "very unlucky" part.
I would agree completely if he had said simply "unlucky".
To me, "very unlucky" means an event with probability < 1/1000 or perhaps as high as 1/100 happened.
I don't have real data, but the cornice/avalanche risk in that gully looks > 1/50 to me.
Sorry about using very rough numbers here without real data, but I just want to use rough values to indicate the relative risk.
At the top, Leclerc called Justin Sweeney, the team manager for his main sponsor, Arc'teryx. Sweeney told Outside magazine that the two climbers were celebrating their climb. They discussed whether they should descend via the north or south face. Sweeney didn't know which route they had chosen. I believe from Marc-André's summit phone conversation with Justin Sweeney, discussing descent options on both sides of the mountain,
that they knew the gully had significant risk.
It probably was the lowest risk of the available descent options,
given that they didn't have skis, tent and stove cached on the other side.
Avalanches kill experienced mountaineers, because it's usually not feasible to (safely) test the slope in all the relevant locations.
A recent example would be the avalanche that caught Inge Perkins and Hayden Kennedy last October.
And we don't actually know if the primary cause of Marc-André and Ryan's accident was an avalanche, cornice break, rappel anchor failure, etc.
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KyleO
Gym climber
Calgary, AB
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Mar 17, 2018 - 04:26pm PT
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I remember first running into Marc Andre almost 10 years ago in the Smoke Bluffs in Squamish. He was just at that age, within a couple months of first being able to drive alone, legally, where most kids are focused on either hockey and girls, or Nintendo and the internet.
He would usually show up with friends and climb hard stuff on ropes, or appear from the forest, like a cat stalking pray and start running laps on the best routes at the crag then disappear into the forest above. Regardless of style, his slightly lanky teenage frame was exaggerated by his full head of thick, high volume, curly, black hair and was always paired with his toothy, ear to ear, slightly sh#t-eating, humble grin.
I remember thinking wow this kid has it dialed in, then went on to read about his travels, most notably the last five years or so when he took off like a rocket and climbed routes in Canada and Patagonia, in olympian style. Read his article on his Mt. Robson solo and as he describes his intentions for and conclusions after that route, it becomes very clear he found the magic on that trip. That elusive magic only found with changing colours, seasons or time. That self realization kind of magic where the body feels it’s lightest, and the mind becomes focused and content. That special magic feeling of travel that brought us all to climbing in the first place yet we only briefly experience periodically and fleetingly on our best days outside.
I ran into Marc Andre again a couple years ago at Haffner creek. It was nice to get to swap belays and hear stories of his recent exploits and although his lanky frame was gone, that grin was still there. Man he climbed light as a feather that day.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 17, 2018 - 06:37pm PT
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Kingtut, I'm not going to debate you on this thread.
You do realize what this thread is, don't you?
If you want to take your posts off of this thread and move them to another thread of your choosing/making and debate until the cows come home about your supposed objective knowledge, I'll be happy to oblige.
But if you had any sensitivity as a physician, you would realize that this thread is not the place for that debate, wherein you are in-effect telling the family, "Oh, and while the pain of loss is most pressing upon you, your husband/father was a selfish, irresponsible jerk. Oh, and as an MD, I KNOW this, so I'm gonna just TELL it to you."
Outrageous.
And incorrect.
So, take your pontifications to another thread, and I'll jump right in. But THIS thread is not the place for your OPINIONS about the moral status of the dead!!!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 17, 2018 - 06:56pm PT
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^^^ Take it to another thread, and I'll be right there. Probably others will as well. But this thread is more than a "search and rescue report."
I won't respond to you anymore here.
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Mar 17, 2018 - 07:06pm PT
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kingtut-tut,
Cut, delete and paste in a new 'Worthiness Algorithm' thread.
I'd like to delete my posts (they don't belong here) but neither do you.
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