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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Dec 10, 2017 - 08:52am PT
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I used to use ATCs alot. But Ive learned from some of the worlds top climbers that a GriGri is the best tool. You wont see many of the hottest sharp end climbers using ATCs. When the leader falls alot on a hard move, ATCs lead to fatigue which is the number one killer. Standing at belays can be a long and tedious gulag with an ATC. I like being able to move around and even adjust my position while belaying. The ATC is just too sketchy for that. Ive been dropped a long way on ATCs and nearly killed when my belayer, a climbing legend, couldnt hold on. I watched a student of mine, who worked as belay staff at Pipeworks, deck her father in the gym while belaying with an ATC. I bought her a GriGri the next day. I recall lowering a partner off with a 70meter rope by ATC one time. I wont ever do that again. the ATC is useless for belaying off an anchor, and thus cannot be easily used to rescue a partner. The ATC cannot be used as a progress capture so its useless in setting up 3:1 rigging. When I guide I belay off anchor and always carry mini traxion. It takes me about 30 seconds to set up a 3:1 and I dont need to escape the belay because Im on my own tie in. Munter mules are good to know about. But they require practice to use them in real time scenarios. The Gri Gri on an anchor makes it all go away. Yes I belay the leader off my harness. But Im one girth hitch/prussick and a locker away from transferring the load to the anchor. Try doing that with one hand while holding the brakes on an ATC thats loaded with a 200 lb fallen leader. I will admit that twisted ropes and grigris sometimes hose the leader. That is why we train in the gym and develop proficiency with the device before entering the natural world with it. I will admit that the Petzl reverso has some functions that are likable, if you know how to really use one in guide mode..... When I self belay setting routes or pruning trees, an ATC is useless unless I lock off by wrapping the rope around my leg and squeezing. I do that all the time when rappelling but its not feasible when running a chainsaw. Gri Gris suck for rappelling so I give props to the ATC for that. I do always carry one. Never underestimate the value of belaying with a Munter in an emergency. Learn to use one....
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 10, 2017 - 09:22am PT
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I climbed at in the '70s; no one ever got dropped Yeah - then the 80's came along and more people actually started applying force to those worthless belay systems and all hell broke lose.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 10:14am PT
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Yeah - then the 80's came along and more people actually started applying force to those worthless belay systems and all hell broke lose.
The reality is that hip belays were and are just as good for catching falls as any of the newer gadgets and perhaps a bit safer in extreme cases like factor 2 falls, where many of the current gadgets fail unless properly handled (the gri gri is an exception; it works in all orientations---at least when it works...)
In many cases, a mismatch between rope characteristics and the belay device means the belayer is critically underpowered and won't be able to hold a big fall (as they find out indirectly when they have a rappelling epic). This type of unrecognized functional inadequacy is a feature of modern technology combined with a sanguine attitude about testing one's belay abilities in situations beyond the usual trivial ones.
So the reality is just the opposite of the quote, because modern belay systems have a far larger range of variation than the old methods and so open up more, not fewer, opportunities for failures.
I agree with Joe that we never heard of climbers being dropped by belayers, but I don't think that such anecdotal observations rise to the level of any kind of statistical validity. That said, there is no question that the contemporary embrace of leader falls as a routine aspect of the endeavor, combined with modern climbing social norms and belay technology, have created an environment that first of all involves exponentially more falls while at the same time being more conducive to dropping than in the old days.
In view of this, it would be a surprise if there weren't a lot more dropping accidents per capita in the climbing world, but I don't think we have any good way of quantifying the comparison.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 10, 2017 - 10:32am PT
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Yeah - then the 80's came along and more people actually started applying force to those worthless belay systems and all hell broke lose.
This points out (perhaps unintended) that different systems can be employed in different situations and work, but that knowing which system to use when is an important part of climbing, at least in situations where you need to decide.
The adoption of belay devices in U.S. climbing was slow (as was the use of harnesses), the basic objection was introducing some unnecessary "link" in the safety "chain." As JLP points out, ideas of what was necessary changed as climbing changed. The "if you aren't flyin' you aren't tryin'" 80's certainly stressed the earlier systems.
The 1975 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog offers this item for the first time:
"salewa/stitch belay plate
This is an ugly device that looks like a cross between a hockey puck and a Slinky, but it can be an important aid in the event of a fall. This belay plate has a spring directed towards the carabiner to keep the rope from binding or catching against the plate during feeding. Should the climber fall, however, the spring compresses and a great amount of rope drag develops as the plate jams against the carabiner. This braking system will stop the fall automatically, without forcing the belayer to rely on strength alone. The belay plate also eliminates friction of the rope (and rope burn) on the waist during a fall. Recommended when the much heavier climber is being belayed by the lighter. Accepts both 9mm and 11mm ropes. Instructions included."
The desire for an "autolock" belay device seems have been a constant in climbing throughout what we might consider it's entire "modern" instantiation... (modern refers to the time the referrer started climbing).
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Dec 10, 2017 - 11:29am PT
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The widespread and often unnecessary use of the various "autolock" devices seems somewhat parallel to the adoption of much other safety gear - which often has the implicit result of encouraging people to take greater risks, and so not reducing risk at all, particularly given that people tend to assume that it does.
If nothing else, it's one more piece of specialized gear to lug around. If you can't use it for both belaying and rappelling...
Thinking back to Belaying the Leader, and the introduction of nylon ropes, the concept was to allow the rope to run, to reduce force on the rope and climber. Only with modern kernmantle ropes did locking devices become possible.
A hip belay, especially if the rope is routed through a carabiner, around the hip, and back through the carabiner, is very reliable for 'must not fail' situations. Wall climbing, belayer conked by rock, etc. The regular hip belay evolved from letting the rope run (dynamic) to (more or less) static. See Belaying the Leader. Many of those who learned to climb from the 1950s - 1980s learned well that belaying and rappelling were DFU territory, and that gear is no substitute for brains.
I enjoy occasionally doing a hip belay at the Little Smoke Bluffs at Squamish, or a carabiner brake. Essential techniques. Drop your fancy gadget, and there you are. (OK, I pass on the body rappel.)
Bouldering pads (+ modern orthopaedic surgery and therapy): higher and harder boulders.
Ice hockey, US football, etc: heavier padding, better helmets = culture accepting more numerous and much heavier impacts. (CTE, anyone?)
Avalanche transceivers, flotation devices: 1/4 to 1/3 of persons completely covered when an avalanche stops are DOA. After 30 minutes, most of the survivors are also dead. The whole point is not to get in an avalanche in the first place. The gadgets aren't a licence to be stupid.
Ski helmets: Why do people wear them when skiing uphill, in soft snow in the forest? I can see maybe using them at a downhill area with icy conditions, or where you want to ski fast, but???
Gear is never a substitute for brains and judgment.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 10, 2017 - 01:04pm PT
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The reality is that hip belays were and are just as good for catching falls as any of the newer gadgets and perhaps a bit safer in extreme cases like factor 2 falls Bull$hit - do you even lift, bro?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 01:21pm PT
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I don't lift (much), but I've caught 2 factor-2 falls in the real world with a hip belay, and about 20 simulated factor-1.8 falls, "simulated" meaning that a weight was used (~160 lbs) in a test situation rather than out on real rock.
This probably means I've caught more really severe falls than almost any younger rock climber, since the propensity to test and practice belays seems to have died with the hip belay. This experience is partially the source of the claim that the hip belay is not intrinsically worse---I should have said in practiced hands---than the modern gadgets.
As for the part about it being perhaps safer, note that many of the instruction manuals for both regular and assisted-braking tube-style devices suggest that they will not be effective in a factor 2 fall situation. This is not entirely accurate, but in order for a tube-style device to work, the belayer has to have adopted and palm-up belay grip, contrary to the way tubes are normally handled. With a palm-down grip, the device will supply almost no braking friction. Of course, another problem already-mentioned is that the particular device-rope combination may not provide enough friction for a stop.
Look, don't get me wrong, I've already made it clear that I use an assisted braking device most of the time. My point was and is that the old methods were pretty damn good and did not suddenly and inexplicably become inadequate in the 80's.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 10, 2017 - 01:50pm PT
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Dudes - seriously - bull$hit. Rgold should know well the physics are not so trivial as to be described by the amount of rope out.
Go take your hip belay nonsense to a modern sport area like Smith or Rifle - bunch of noobs on those big lines - not. Within about a half hour someone would have a firm conversation with you about your hip belay, within about 4 you’d be surrounded with threats of getting your butt kicked for endangering someones life.
Modern climbing is not doubles on some Gunks 5.6 with 50 pcs in, you could stop that fall with a pinkie if any weight at all ended up at the belay. Try routine and repetitive 20-50 foot falls on a 9.2 mm, rope running straight though about 5 clips. Everyone wearing leather gloves standing there with their 2nd grigri of the season - bunch of new age pussies - give me a break.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
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King Tut, I agree that it isn't data, but it isn't selective recollection either; I never heard about anyone being dropped. Among the many reasons that isn't data is that without an internet, communication about climbing events was nowhere near as extensive as it is now, so it would have been much easier for us to never know about adverse examples.
There's no way to know if the dropping situation would have been different if the hip belay had survived, not simply because we can't run that experiment, but also because the hip belay is just one of many interrelated factors in the evolution of climbing, and as several people have noted, the presence of at least semiautomatic braking has probably helped to diminish the seriousness belaying formerly enjoyed, and that diminished sense of seriousness, combined with the far more social aspect of gym and crag climbing, has led to a general drop in attentiveness. These interconnected influences make it impossible to separate out one thing like belay technique and pin a host of ills on just it.
JLP, you're right, there is a reason that technology developed, and I use it myself, as I keep emphasizing. Repeated catches of hard falls with a thin rope would certainly be a miserable experience. So no need for the snide comments about double ropes and 50 pieces. If anything the trivial-to-belay fall is much more a part of sport climbing.
In order to continue the argument, you have changed the subject. Your original post, the one I responded to, was
Yeah - then the 80's came along and more people actually started applying force to those worthless belay systems and all hell broke lose. In other words, you suggested that modern climbing brought with it higher forces that the hip belay couldn't handle, and my point is that is not true, the hip belay was fully capable of handling the biggest forces climbing can produce. (And by the way, those forces are considerably bigger than the Smith rock examples you mentioned.) Moreover, because of rope/device mismatches, some of the modern belay devices are more likely to cause a loss of control than the hip belay (in practiced hands) would. That's all.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 10, 2017 - 02:00pm PT
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JLP likes to adopt a stance of high dudgeon in these generational discussions...
...sort of like the Vulgarians pissing on the Appies or the Stonemasters on the Sierra Clubers.... only + 1 generation...
He'll be the attention of next-gen opprobium sooner than later... until then he provides a necessary reminder that times have changed in climbing, and generally for the better, especially where gear and practice are concerned.
Teachers know they're successful when their students surpass them, it has been said that "good universities have great professors and great students, that great universities have only great students" I think we can generalize that here.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 02:32pm PT
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Ed, as I think you know, the Appies had a hegemony over Gunks climbing that allowed them, for a while, to restrict climber's choices and behaviors. The Vulgarian "revolution" against that type of "dictatorship" is not quite the same as as the generational sourness evident here, as my comments don't interfere with anyone's ability to do anything they damn please.
But it is true that the climbing world has always been shaped by younger generations breaking at least some of the "rules" the older generation had lived by, with the resulting friction an inevitable feature of forward progress. I get it, and since I've been around so long I've been a part of somebody's concept of older generation for nearly 30 years, I'm also pretty used to it. But I would add that if teachers' fondest hope is that their student's surpass them, I don't think many wish for deprecation as the final result of their efforts.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 10, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
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I want to see the video - hip belay old dad guy getting violently ripped from his stance, pulled 20 feet into the air and slammed into the first bolt - repeat 10-20 times, never fuks up a detail. That video would go viral.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 10, 2017 - 03:25pm PT
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I want to see the video - hip belay old dad guy getting violently ripped from his stance, pulled 20 feet into the air and slammed into the first bolt - repeat 10-20 times, never fuks up a detail.
I think part of the technique is to be tied in, or have a bomber stance, so you don't get ripped up into a bolt 20' away. Sort of like positioning yourself in the outfield to catch the long fly ball, doesn't make the Web Gems, but does highlight the ability to anticipate.
I also usually tie in to the end of a rope, at least outside, since it is highly unlikely that I would be pulled through a belay device. But that's just me...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2017 - 03:52pm PT
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ripped from his stance, pulled 20 feet into the air and slammed into the first bolt - repeat 10-20 times,
That's sport climbing, rock jerkoff, with no flow, st00pid way to climb ...... :-)
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 04:14pm PT
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Haha Werner, getting lifted 20 feet and slamming into a bolt and then letting the same thing happen 19 more times is something only young guys with gri-gris know how to do properly.
(PS: if the gri gri cam hits the biner on the first draw, everyone is going to be in for a real big surprise.)
Sometimes, anchoring the belayer is worth considering: http://rockandice.com/videos/weekend-whippers/weekend-whipper-belayer-rocket/
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 10, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
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Snowing back there Rich....just back from Escalante Canyon (mini Indian Creek). Not a cloud in the sky or a breath of wind, climbed in t-shirts all day. The weather is really freakish. Off to Patagonia on Tuesday.
My ATC was so happy I believe I heard it purring. It got really wet and cold when I took it ice climbing two days ago. I think it enjoyed the sun as much as I did!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 04:28pm PT
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Tuesday: I'll be giving a calculus exam. Have a great trip Jim!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 10, 2017 - 05:55pm PT
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Dudes - seriously - bull$hit.
Yours is the only serious bullshit in this conversation. We were taking endless falls and plenty of long and hard wingers among them onto hip belays in the 70's. In fact, the first time I heard the phrase "the leader must not fall" I assumed it was a bad joke. I've also held all manner of falls including multiple FF2 falls with hip belays. And really, sport climbing belaying and holding sport falls as any kind of belaying challenge? Meh, now there's a frigging joke.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 10, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
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I want to see the video - hip belay old dad guy getting c - repeat 10-20 times, never fuks up a detail. That video would go viral.
And how would it be different if the old guy dad or young guy stud were using any other belay method?
Gri-gri? ATC? Munter?
Pick whatever method you like, if your partner takes a huge whipper, you're going to get "violently ripped from his stance, pulled 20 feet into the air and slammed into the first bolt".
But only if you're stupid enough not to rig your belay so that, no matter what belay device you're using, you don't go flying up to the first bolt.
Stupid argument.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Dec 10, 2017 - 08:37pm PT
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I fully agree that GriGris are safer than ATCs...FOR THOSE EXPERIENCED IN THEIR USE.
Problem is...the learning curve is not.
I am quite experienced using the GriGri and was a big fan...until I was dropped with one last summer.
Last bolt of an overhanging sport climb...experienced belayer and friend of 40 years (but not that experienced with GriGri).
I nearly decked. Neither of us knows exactly what happened but I bailed on the GriGri right there.
I still think it’s fine for belayers very experienced in it’s use...but there are better devices:
The Click-Up. Lighter, safer, far easier to master. No dangerous learning curve.
There’s at least one more but currently this is the bomb. My climbing friends agree.
Psyched to check out the Revo when it arrives.
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