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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Pure nonsense, John. You just can’t deal with the fact that more people, including most African Americans, chose Hillary over Bernie. Hard to have a healthy debate with someone so entrenched in your mindset.
Trump is grinning ear to ear over the prospect of a third party. He loves you guys.
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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To respond to the question in the subject, call me shortsighted, but I'll take a sleazy spineless politician like Ryan over the orange buffoon, yeah Trump, any day.
Policies of an unhealthy extreme, whether left or right, can eventually be corrected over the course as long as there is still some democratic process, even if far from perfect, to follow. Even supreme court justices will die some day just like everyone. But the damage Trump has done and has the potential to do is far beyond policies and legislations that he fails or manages to push through.
If he continues to be the loudest voice this country and this world hear day in and day out, the divide in the country will continue to grow, the fringe hate groups will continue to come out of woods, common sense and common decency will continue to be dismissed, facts will continue to be ignored, democracy will continue to weaken, etc. etc. Many more Trumps will successfully grab power propelled by distorted reality. These threats will have a long lasting effect.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Word is that Ryan is tainted, as is Pence. The next "available" POTUS who hasn't been touched by the debacle is Hatch. Which makes Monday's meeting in SLT even more important to protest. I'm thinking about heading there from Tahoe if I can get off Sunday. Plus, Utah is awesome.
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John M
climber
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Norton.. try to hear this. I voted for Hillary. My argument has been all along that there was a high chance that she would not win. She isn't a good leader. She might be effective behind the scenes, but out front she makes too many mistakes. And there was too much stink of corruption around her. But if I say that, then people like crankster will blame the republicans and fox news. I wasn't swayed by that. I was swayed by the rumors coming out of party headquarters. People don't like Hillary. So my argument all along was well before she became the parties nomination. Even her own husband tried to tell her she was making big mistakes. but she doesn't listen. Much like some people here.
The democrat party has holes in it. Fix the holes instead of blaming people and making fun of them. Making fun of people is one part of how Hillary lost. Calling people Deplorables was a huge mistake. But she tried to sweep it under the rug and say that people wouldn't vote for a woman. Liberals and the undecided vote certainly would. But you don't win this election simply with a majority vote. You have to win certain swing states. Hillary did not understand this.
Edit: and even though Crankster can't understand this, I was not a Bernie supporter. My effort against Hillary began way before she was the parties nomination.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Norton you seem to miss the point that many (most?) binary voters (self included) are pretty well finished with the malignant binary system.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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many (most?) binary voters (self included) are pretty well finished with the malignant binary system.
If we had a parliamentary system here I would wager it would function on a par with Italy’s.
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dirtbag
climber
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I hear ya, John. If I had to conjure up a candidate from scratch, it would not have looked like Hillary.
The best piece of post mortem election advice I heard for Dems was that they should not nominate the person whose turn it is. That described Hillary--it fits Biden to a tee, and a few others. Dems did well--obviously--with a fresh face in 2008. I know the talent is there to do the same in 2020.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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you prefer the current system to alternatives, Reilly?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Well, Poke, probably not, but what’s the likelihood of a constitutional amendment?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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The current system is here to stay. Think of the longevity of the second amendment and the electoral college....two things dearly in need of major revisions or abandonment.
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John M
climber
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I know the talent is there to do the same in 2020.
which means we need to focus on party leaders who will allow those people to be found. Instead of as you said, picking the person whose "turn" it is. That may have worked for many years, but times are changing. The Dems better get with that, or they could lose again.
Woot !!!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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DMT, I am all for Unity Party, not some extreme crud from one side or the other.
And for us to think that after 250 years our electoral system is not maybe ready for at least a little tweaking (or watering of that Arbre d'Liberté?) seems, well, a-historical.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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“We need to focus on party leaders who will allow these people to be found”.
That’s a head scratcher if ever I’ve heard one.
Hate doesn’t serve you well, John. Hillary’s a decent person and public servant, warts, mistakes and all. She’ll remain one no matter how much vitriol and lies people like you continue to spread.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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How about an open primary, all candidates with at least 20% of the vote goes to the general election. In the general election if the winner gets 50% or more of the vote then that candidate is the winner, otherwise a run-off between the top two finishers. This avoids the third party spoiler (Nader) problem
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Crankster we get it. your girl suffered the smear campaign to end all smear campaigns....and the corrupt dem machine still (s)elected her from the field of challengers. Christ man, both John and I voted for her, even knowing that her goodwill and betterness (than orange shitheel) would not likely overcome the massive hatred, misogyny and misinformation.
Did you just miss the whole smear campaign or the massive hatred/mistrust prior to primary election day?
Much as I'd like to help the ST Brain Trust fix this all, I've got some navel lint, bike riding, etc., to do. Keep up the good work fellas.
v the quote sounds like a butthurt apologist, a wilting flower, a melting snowflake, if you will. if no one will talk with their antagonists in the electorate, we can expect a whole lot more installments of the current, excellent, reality TV presidency v
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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I'll call out Norton for special mention here - not a day goes by that he doesn't blast red staters and in so doing, my relatives.
thank you, I will continue to call out ignorance
and if that includes those in "red" states or any other state and your relatives then so be it
by the way, my calling out ignorance includes calling out my own brother in law to his face
he is the prototype Republican "base" voter, case in point
he drove a delivery truck for 45 years before retiring, listening all day to AM radio, Rush Limbaugh, learned to hate "liberals" and "feminazis"
his financial ass was powdered by being in the Teamsters Union, his salary, his healthcare, his pension, all fiercely opposed by the Republican party he votes for
and he is too damn ignorant to even know that
he lives in a trailer in rural Wisconsin, barely a high school grad, zero intellectual curiosity to even read a news paper except the comics
ain't nothing wrong or "looked down on" above, he is my wife's brother and she thinks he reeks of lazy ignorance also
he and tens of millions of other ignorant white males just like him voted against their own interests in voting for Trump, mostly because they are bigots and could never vote for a women just like they could never vote for Obama being only half white
yes, I will continue to call out people like my brother in law, and it that happens to include anyone else's relatives, well then so what, it's called free speech
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John M
climber
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I don't believe she is a good person. That has nothing to do with the smear campaign.
She voted for the war in Iraq.. And then blamed the other side for her believing them.
She called voters "deplorable".. and then blamed the other side for not being willing to vote for a woman, all while saying the other side was bad for their name calling.
She took money from wall street and refused to release what she said to them.. while calling for openness and for trump to release his tax returns. thats hypocrisy.
She smeared the women who said Bill abused them while claiming to be for women. thats more hypocrisy.
She does not take responsibility for her mistakes. Instead she makes excuses.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Forget Nader and Bernie...We already have a 3 party system...Republicans , Democrats , and the powerful 3rd party corporations who are people writing legislation for the better good of the populace...
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Hillary won the nomination with 76% of the African American vote to Bernie’s 23%. I’d suggest those who can’t get over Bernie’s loss reach out to people of color to learn and expand their depth of understanding.
he and tens of millions of other ignorant white males just like him voted against their own interests in voting for Trump, mostly because they are bigots and could never vote for a women just like they could never vote for Obama being only half white Bingo.
We used to have a system where it was possible for moderates to reach across the aisle. The tea party and conservative media did away with that.
Gotta ski, enough said.
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