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nah000
climber
now/here
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you know what i appreciate about kingtut’s perennial and redundant posts on this subject matter?
that they sometimes draw out responses like Base104’s.
keep on keepin’ on all... even those who choose to [seemingly unwittingly] play the requisite heel.
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WBraun
climber
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As human's we are designed to seek adventure and exercise as part of our hunting and gathering past.
Such brainwashed horsesh!t.
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Aeriq
Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
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Yogi's got it right - ease of living.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ You're doing nothing so noble.
Your "push back" is nothing but an attempt to impose your own value system onto another human being.
Of course you have the right to try it.
We also have the right to call BS on it.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 10, 2018 - 12:01am PT
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Obliviously MB1 is jus bored and needs to go do SOMETHING
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 10, 2018 - 12:10am PT
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Keep in mind the choices between BASE and all the other fun stuff in life is not a binary one. It is not only a choice between extreme risk and a life of boredom. There are literally THOUSANDS of utterly fulfilling things to do with your life outside of just being "rad" for thrills that do nothing to elevate the human condition.
Nice 👍
Base is most likely the most unmanly manly thing to do!? By unmanly I mean one must give up on almost all controllability..
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 10, 2018 - 12:20am PT
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There is only one value system, Richard, and that is choose life in almost every case.
Do tell. Since you say "almost," what are the exceptions?
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Dec 10, 2018 - 12:54am PT
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No one but crazy people do this without training and understanding. But once you have experienced non motorized flight you can't go back. It changes your outlook, your perspective and the possible.
Accidents happen both in climbing and in flight. I don't see the two much different. For me wall climbing was a way of being up with the birds. Now I fly with the birds. It's beautiful. I observe birds in a different way now. They give me clues to what I can't see.
I'm happy the "Pirate" is with the birds again.
S....
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Dec 10, 2018 - 01:12am PT
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There is more to existence than being a good yo-yo. Chances come & go. While grasping for the attainable one often nixes opportunity'
In life, actions need to be tempered with rational thought. Living is dying but hastening the end is selfish. Striving for self-lessness and shared companionship to effect a lasting legacy of love & power from shared experience, is deeply ingrained, and is considered a part of the human condition. A goal to breathe one's last breath without causing grief to others is thought to bring the soul/life-force to a higher plane Just because one can & it feels good doesn't make it a worthy or noble pursuit. There is no accounting in the end. What someone wants to do is only stupid if it fits the definition of insanity: doing the same things repetitively & expecting a change in outcome.
what are the exceptions?
Degenative terminal illness, Mental illness, paralysis, brain damage, random undiagnosable pain, Depression; the heartbreak from catastrophic death of others has been shown to drive survivors to be unable to continue living.
Skywalker1,
what you propose, living till one needs & can afford "hospice"
does not take into consideration chance death through random occurrence, or other peoples feelings.
As I said living is dying. Only the speed and comfort at which the dying takes place is marginally controllable.
There is no need to be there for anyone at any time. Least of all those who are close to you so understand and have no misconceptions of the value of said relationships in comparison to the value you place on your own enlightenment. If it is that & not just the sad addiction to chemical reactions that take place in the human grey matter.
Particularly if selfishness, instead of selflessness, as a trait, is a part of your personality that you embrace proudly.
If you feel so strongly that the benefits of the effects of repeatedly tossing yourself from great heights,
is worth more than the care & love that others may hold for you,
then it is no concern of anyone how you disrespect the spark that is the life force.
be well flying squirrels.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Dec 10, 2018 - 02:04am PT
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Chances come & go opportunity in life needs to be tempered with rational thought.
Agreed. But you make it to hospice. What are you looking back on? Hesitation? Or learning everything you could, to execute everything that you wanted to do?
I agree that I need to make it till my daughter is an adult. But I don't prescribe to the reasoning that I should limit my goals or desire to someone else grieving me.
S...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 10, 2018 - 03:57am PT
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one of the most lame arguments ever is to try to justify base by pointing out that accidents happen climbing unless you specify high altitude mountaineering. normal cragging has millions of accident free user days. wanking around on K2 does not. Kind of like the difference between skydiveing and proximity flight squirl suiting... The former reasonably safe. the latter dead person falling....
Do whatever makes you feel fulfilled just don't be completely delusional about it. Know the odds and be prepared for the probable outcomes.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Dec 10, 2018 - 07:28am PT
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Ammon can and will lead his life as he sees fit, but Tradman makes a good point. I see this kind of false equivalency thinking all the time with extreme sports--Yeah, you can die crossing the street, man! Sorry, bro, I'll take my chances crossing the street over proxy wingsuit flying any day. Of course, people must be free to choose their own path. That we must always defend--unless that path is the persecution of others, of course.
BAd
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Dec 10, 2018 - 10:08am PT
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Comparing BASE jumping to a heroine or cocaine addiction is laughable and very rudimentary thinking. It's not a black and white equation, everyone jumps for their own reasons and motivations.
Yes, adrenaline is involved in that equation but it's not desired. Adrenaline makes you feel edgy and your performance suffers from it. When I'm current in jumping, I don't feel any adrenaline. After a while you can master the flow and stop the adrenaline from clouding your awareness.
You are able to get to a state that only two things matter. The present moment. And survival. It boils down to how much you want to live. I feel the ultimate freedom in those moments. I choose life, EVERY time.
That does not sound like a heroine junkie, to me. I have had a handful of friends that were junkies and have OD'd, on it. They were not pursuing the outdoor's and enjoying life, actually living life. They were holed up in a hotel or closet somewhere, hiding from life. The comparison is absurd!
We have all grown up knowing what skiing, climbing, scuba diving and even skydiving is. It's ingrained in our minds. It's normal. When people get hurt or killed doing those activities, it's not a big deal because everyone does it. BASE jumping gets so much criticism because most people can't even imagine themselves doing it. So, it's completely out of their thinking capabilities. Their brain doesn't know how to process the information because the brain isn't even sure what that information is. Huge question marks, everywhere.
No, it's not for attention. That too, is laughable. Do you see a camera on my helmet? I have not filmed my jumps since I've been back. Not what it's about. My friend Luanne just happened to be at the bridge and got a great shot.
Steve, it really bumms be out that you would write that on the internet and now it's being repeated, by people that don't have any idea. My family has even said it, now. I've been jumping for 12 years, it's bound to catch up with me. Both accidents were human error (one mine) and I know exactly what went wrong. It's not russian roulette it's actually very scientific.
One more thought... when climbers/mountaineers die in the mountains they are viewed as heroes (Alex Lowe comes to mind), they are bold adventurers willing to explore the unknown. Their faces are splattered all over the mags, forever etched in our minds as great humans. When a base jumper dies in the mountains. They are considered a wreckless, adrenaline junkie, selfish, suicidal dumbass.
Why the difference? Because people don't understand flying/gliding?
Anyway, I missed you guys SOOO much. This has been great!
Lots of love. Gotta go climb and jump!
Edit: Bad, I don't proxy wingsuit fly, for obvious reasons. It's like climbing man, you can pick your poison.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 10, 2018 - 10:20am PT
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In life, actions need to be tempered with rational thought.
What is this "rational thought" that you and a few others here try to articulate?
Do you mean "practical reasoning," logic, mathematical rationality? What?
I think you're referring to practical reasoning, but, if so, then you're smuggling in your OWN practical reasoning as if it's universally valid. Big mistake.
Living is dying but hastening the end is selfish.
So says you. Again, you take a widely-believed "axiom" and attempt to universalize it.
And, even IF you were correct, you are smuggling in all sorts of presumptions about "hastening," just as Tut does about "uplifting."
In so doing, you ignore the simple metric that determines all of our choices: bang-for-buck considerations. And, both the perceived bang and perceived buck are subjective.
Believe me, I've had MANY conversations about this sort of stuff with my wife, and before every hard project, we rehash these points again to be sure that we're on the same page. For you to suggest that the understanding we have about the risks I've taken is "selfish" is absurd.
Striving for self-lessness and shared companionship to effect a lasting legacy of love & power from shared experience, is deeply ingrained, and is considered a part of the human condition.
Wow, a pile of high-sounding words that consist of nothing but smuggling in your own interpretations to the critical concepts.
Lasting (huh?)
Legacy (what a joke!)
Love (please explain)
Power (whaaaat?)
Considered (????)
And it goes on.
Tut and his ilk pontificate like they have some universal truths that establish not just a moral high pulpit from which to preach but a LOFTY high pulpit.
You do not. You have a bunch of subjective opinions and wishful thinking, and you do NOT speak for the value systems of MANY of us.
A goal to breathe one's last breath without causing grief to others
Impossible. And why should THAT be striven for as a value anyway? A total lack of grieving implies total detachment. Why would THAT be valuable to anybody?
is thought to bring the soul/life-force to a higher plane
By whom?
WTF?
Just because one can & it feels good doesn't make it a worthy or noble pursuit.
And doesn't make it NOT a worthy or noble pursuit. Motivations are the issue here, and none of us know Ammon's motivations. You smuggle in prima facie "selfishness," but you lack the evidence and epistemic privilege to be entitled to the judgment.
There is no accounting in the end.
And there it is: the admission of babbling.
NONE of us is fit to judge. So, I'm just gonna call BS on Tut and his ilk as long as any of them pretend to know what they are talking about.
What someone wants to do is only stupid if it fits the definition of insanity: doing the same things repetitively & expecting a change in outcome.
That's actually just a meme, not a rigorous definition of insanity.
And much "insanity" has produced great works of art, music, literature, etc.
what are the exceptions?
Best for Tut to take a stab at that question himself. Still waiting, although he'd probably agree with your list.
So....
Degenative terminal illness, Mental illness, paralysis, brain damage, random undiagnosable pain, Depression; the heartbreak from catastrophic death of others has been shown to drive survivors to be unable to continue living.
So, what you're saying with this entire list is nothing more lofty than: "When life becomes more painful for YOU than YOU FEEL like you can (read: want to) cope with, THEN you get to check out with our approbation."
If you're saying only that these sorts of things DO cause people to end it faster that most, well, that's just a descriptive claim with no normative weight. But Tut is making normative claims, and your list fails to explicate.
Still waiting for the grand, principled distinctions between a "proper" risk/reward ratio and a "selfish" one.
Oh, Tut, while you're at it, please provide a rigorous definition of "uplift," so that we can properly distinguish Ammon from those that actually do "uplift." Of course, it goes without saying that YOU (an MD) just live a pure, unselfish life of service, so that sense of "uplifting" is (falsely) presumed.
But perhaps you'd grace us with an account of how all the rest of us can do a bit of "uplifting" in our own pathetic ways. Or perhaps you'll just acknowledge that "uplifting" is so broad a concept that it could, just maybe, include inspiring others to get out of their comfort zones and do some SOARING of their own.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 10, 2018 - 10:45am PT
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Nice story Dingus :)
Ammon:
That does not sound like a heroine junkie, to me. I have had a handful of friends that were junkies and have OD'd, on it. They were not pursuing the outdoor's and enjoying life, actually living life. They were holed up in a hotel or closet somewhere, hiding from life. The comparison is absurd!
This is an important observation and distinction that I am going to mull over. I have a generalized definition of addiction for myself, as anything that is a compelling alternative to living in the present and dealing with whatever stuff I should be dealing with to make progress toward my goals or take care of business/responsibilities. It is a way of avoiding dealing with emotions.
Pursuits that enable us to live life on a "higher plane" of experience, to get more out of this adventure in the flesh, are a mixed bag by this definition. They can be an addiction to avoid dealing with emotions, to avoid dealing with uncomfortable life situations or stresses, to avoid responsibilities and the quotidian tasks that are part of "taking care of business" whatever that may be for a person. On the other hand, they can be an expression of joy, the fruits of labor in pursuit of excellence in physical and mental training, and become a core foundation of "living an actualized life."
I'm not a BASE jumper, and I don't think non-BASE jumpers are qualified to pass judgment without having the experience of skills and risk factors and awareness of how much control one can exert or not over the situation as it develops. The analogy to climbing I think is in the spirit of trying to capture this aspect: something can look "extreme" to the non-initiated when it is actually pretty reasonable (e.g. climbing a closely bolted overhanging roof with big jugs) if you have the requisite skills and experience and ability and judgment. At the same time, the consequences of not being aware of one's shortcomings in skill, experience, or judgment in BASE jumping do not afford many opportunities for second chances.
We each have to make our own decisions of what matters in life and live accordingly, and we have to make peace with how we manage the relationships in our lives if we love or are loved by people with incompatible values.
I say keep having fun in whatever way floats your boat. You have the capacity to know better than anyone what is a reasonable or unreasonable risk for you, and the people who are closest to you probably understand what makes you tick and want you to live life on your terms. At the same time, we fundamentally choose how much richness we get in life from the presence of others, based on how much we are willing to be there for others and give them what they need (which may or may not include peace of mind about your activities, depending on the person). Like everything else in life, the more you give of yourself, the more you can receive.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Dec 10, 2018 - 11:02am PT
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Tradmanclimbs - Yes, I was talking climbing as a whole, including high altitude mountaineering.
I have lost many friends in all climbing disciplines, car/motorcycle accidents, freak accidents, drug over-doses, suicides and yes, BASE jumping. There's many paths to death. That is a fact and I'm not afraid of it.
I am not trying to "justify" base jumping and I'm definitely not trying to promote it. In fact, as Bridwell said about Bushido...
"I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy"
Edit - Nutagain, sound words. Thanks for putting them down.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 10, 2018 - 11:09am PT
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Tut, seriously, the need to feel morally superior is a thing too. Being a narrow-minded, judgmental twit doesn't make you morally superior.
The only "thinking" that needs to be done in responses to your judgmental posts above is this: WE (you included) are not in an epistemically privileged position enough to have anything to say on the subject of Ammon's lifestyle choices.
If you want to ratchet your rhetoric WAY back and make some subjective, descriptive statements, like, "IMO, it's possible to become an adrenaline junkie in such a way that it becomes destructive," then we could probably all respond with a brief, acknowledging nod and go about our business. But you've gone WAY beyond that sort of statement into full-on, normative statements that are unfounded in any principled way and that are personally attacking.
On that approach, some of us are calling BS. You simply don't know enough to make such judgments.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 10, 2018 - 11:15am PT
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Glad to see you up around and kicking ass Ammon. To all: "KEEP STOKE ALIVE" wherever you find it.
Now about that ^^^ F**ed up thread title ^^^ we all keep bumping, darn thing....LOL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 10, 2018 - 11:49am PT
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Tut, now you've just retreated to generalized babbling.
Don't back off of the "high moral ground" you established earlier. Own it. Revel in it.
BE the MD.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Dec 10, 2018 - 11:56am PT
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hilarious Russ!
lets add a pic to this
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