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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 16, 2017 - 07:35pm PT
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there is a fundamental flaw at the very basis of all his logical argument
And what is that?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jul 16, 2017 - 07:38pm PT
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Ghost! Thank you for the complement:
I'd cheerfully sit down for an evening of beer and bullshit with both of you.
I'm looking forward to a meal with fine wines & foods with you, but Madbolter1 is not on my list of folks I want to spend an evening with.
I've suffered through un-social evenings with folks that just want to push their own agenda, & won't just enjoy new friends & share their stories.
I enjoy my conservative friends, my Christian friends, & my worldly & liberal friends, who are all smart enough, to just be friends.
I suspect madbolter1 lacks those social instincts.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 16, 2017 - 08:21pm PT
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Sad as what ?
Sad as, you are apparently unable to respond via argument. Your perpetual responses have been ad hominem. You say you respond "in kind," but show me an example of ad hominem in my post.
Sad as, the claim is made that there is a fundamental flaw in my argument, but this is not cited, just "wisely" referenced.
Sad as, you do not know what the word "rights" means, but you use it like a bludgeon to justify your inconsistent uses of force.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 16, 2017 - 08:27pm PT
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I've suffered through un-social evenings with folks that just want to push their own agenda, & won't just enjoy new friends & share their stories.
Oh, excuse me. I didn't realize that the subject of this thread was "enjoying new friends and sharing stories."
The AGENDA that's been pushed throughout this thread is a liberal one, and it's one that depends upon a very fundamental confusion about the nature of rights. That confusion leads to the same mistakes about the "rights" of this little girl and the "rights" of gay people to force THEIR agenda upon others.
The use of force, whether to extract money or to shut down "non-complying" businesses, is based upon confusion.
When the right is in power, it conflates "rights" to force its own agenda. Same with the left. Both sides are factious and wish only to have and wield power. Both sides justify their use of force with moralistic arguments. Both sides are arguing with an incorrect notion of what "rights" are.
But, you know, if "sharing stories" is what these threads are about, then my mistake. I thought that people were having a politard discussion. Silly me.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 16, 2017 - 08:33pm PT
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You seem to have no consideration before SAYING the other OPINION has no MERIT.
IF the other opinion has merit, then it can educate to seek its ends rather than legislate to seek its ends. It can rise in the marketplace of ideas, so that FREE people can FREELY adopt it.
When an idea must legislate "adoption" and "compliance," it's a loser on the face of it. And that goes for "right-wing" or "left-wing" ideas, conservative or liberal.
I believe that the trend toward an endless mass of positive "rights" indeed has no merit. I've shared counterexamples to which you apparently have no answer.
It's quite simple, really. If your idea, whatever it is, has merit, you'll be able to explain why society should force a retired cop to bake cop-killer cakes for BLM folks. Or, if you think it shouldn't, you'll be able to explain what the principled difference it between that example and the example of a gay couple forcing a Christian bake shop to make a gay-marriage wedding cake.
Baring that, you have merely a "feeling" without a compelling argument. Sorry, but, your "feelings" are no legitimate basis of law.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Jul 16, 2017 - 09:19pm PT
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Poor Richard['s] ... use of the ad hominem
Richard is resorting to ad hominem to advance his position? This thread has become so detached from reality it's hard to know where to start. But let me recap:
Richard has made a distinction between "negative" and "positive" rights. Richard asserts (correctly) that all rights considered or conferred at the founding of this nation were negative rights. However, the forcing of an artist to perform work on your behalf in order to fulfill your rights would be a positive right, hence, a right never considered at the founding of the nation. Richard argues that positive rights are not supported by the Constitution and would lead to situations we collectively would not accept. No one on this thread has made any real attempt to show a flaw in Richard's logic. Rather, this thread is full of unsupported assertions of Richard's supposed logical flaws (e.g., "ad hominem" logic) with others stating gleefully that they simple scroll past Richard's posts, not having to be bothered by his "rants."
If anyone wants to discuss how Richard's logic is flawed, there is reason to follow this aspect of the thread. Otherwise, what's the point to continue?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jul 16, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
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Madbolter1! Per more of your spew & your final statement:
But, you know, if "sharing stories" is what these threads are about, then my mistake. I thought that people were having a politard discussion. Silly me.
Thank you! I'm glad you agree with me, per Ghost's polite invite. You are so immersed in arguement, there is no reason to ever expect to have a polite conversation, over good food & wine, with you.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 16, 2017 - 10:47pm PT
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Buddy some pages back mentioned that our Ontario premiere Kathleen Wynne is "very" gay. This is something of an understatement.
She is very VERY gay, if not EXTREMELY gay. And really hideous looking, too. [woof]
P.S. Richard is actually a pretty nice guy most of the time, even if he looks more like a Dick in this post. And his logic is seldom, if ever, flawed.
Absolutely horrific, dead last amongst all three parties [Brown is Conservative, Horwath is NDP Socialist/Labour] 12% approval rating for Wynne:
Best on the Economy
1. Patrick Brown (42%)
2. Andrea Horwath (17%)
3. Kathleen Wynne (13%)
Best on Trust
1. Patrick Brown (30%)
2. Andrea Horwath (29%)
3. Kathleen Wynne (10%)
Best on the Health Care
1. Andrea Horwath (30%)
2. Patrick Brown (28%)
3. Kathleen Wynne (13%)
Best on the Environment
1. Andrea Horwath (30%)
2. Patrick Brown (25%)
3. Kathleen Wynne (12%)
Best on Education
1. Patrick Brown (32%)
2. Andrea Horwath (22%)
3. Kathleen Wynne (18%)
Best on Infrastructure
1. Patrick Brown (37%)
2. Andrea Horwath (16%)
3. Kathleen Wynne (15%)
Wow ... what a waste of bandwidth ....
...
...
eh, Locker?
I'll bet anyone here on McTopo a 2-4 - payable at the El Cap Bridge in another 3 1/2 years - that Trump is reelected.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jul 16, 2017 - 11:12pm PT
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PTPP.... He might get re-elected if he gets paroled in time...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 20, 2017 - 10:24pm PT
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Here's a site that might help you out, since you seem SO uninformed:
http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/doctoral-degrees-ranked-by-legitimacy-1661697049
There are many others that tell the same story. JD... not such-a-much.
MB, you must have a point in posting this list. I find that I am #1 on that list. Where are you located on it?
You posted it, so it must have some relevance? Does this mean that those in a higher class are more credible than those who are lower, or don't even make the list?
what does your list imply about my opinions, vs your opinions, and what people should listen to?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 20, 2017 - 10:27pm PT
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YURI:
I agree that "right wing totalitarian states ... are just as bad".
However, I believe that a risk of a left wing totalitarian state is much higher according to my observations of the trends in the last 20 years.
Wow! you must not read english!
Again, I never said that "ALL intentions when acted upon may have unintended consequences".
My point was that there were quite a few attempts to build a left-wing state and that all of them produced totalitarian regimes and brought a lot of suffering to people.
Providing better life to certain groups of people at the expense of other people and at the expense of freedom and democracy have been already attempted quite a few times and an outcome was about the same in Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea, Cambodia etc.
So it is your belief that all western democracies, which are to some degree or another, left wing states, are all hell-holes, in which the masses suffer.
You seem to ignore that the places that you mentioned started out as attempts at democratic places, but were subverted by strong arm tactics, and turned into dictatorships.
You can't take a rhetorical position about unintended consequences, without realizing they happen everywhere, and that is not your assertion, it is mine.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 20, 2017 - 10:42pm PT
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You seem to ignore that the places that you mentioned started out as attempts at democratic places, but were subverted by strong arm tactics, and turned into dictatorships
Kinda harshing on France, n'est ce pas?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 20, 2017 - 11:20pm PT
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I posted an original story as a corner case showing that regardless of the system, some people would have access to inferior health care as compared to other people.
The only way to limit health care expenses and keep your integrity is to honestly tell people that some expensive procedures can't be paid by the government and should be paid by people or private add-on insurance plans
Yuri, you seem to think that you are an expert in healthcare systems. You assuredly are not.
Your assertion demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the issues.
The procedure was NOT denied because it was very expensive. Expense was not an issue. It was denied because it is VERY unlikely to be of ANY benefit, and likely might be of harm.
There is also the issue, that you haven't discussed, of the risk of transferring a person who is on total life support, as this child is. This is a big deal. In Calif, NO ONE would transfer an unstable patient in most situations. It is far too risky. In SoCal, there is only one provider that does these transfers, which are complex and complicated. That's to move someone 30 miles. It is virtually unimaginable to move such an infant across an ocean. They are totally dependent upon the technology, which in an infant is very tenuous. Even an IV is a big damned deal. The thought of having to start an IV in an infant, with the consequence of giving life sustaining medication in a moving airplane, is frightening.
Your example, which you fraudulently cloaked in the presentation of a friend, of a "teaching lesson" in what happens in a socialized system, just stinks.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 20, 2017 - 11:21pm PT
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Kinda harshing on France, n'est ce pas?
Unclear what millenium you are speaking of. I'm speaking of the here and now, Reilly. France is about as democratic as you'll find.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jul 22, 2017 - 08:31am PT
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MB1: But, you know, if "sharing stories" is what these threads are about, then my mistake. I thought that people were having a politard discussion. Silly me.
Now and then I look around here on ST to see if anything is worth writing about.
I always appreciate your considered posts, MB1. It’s nice for me to read a cogent intellectual argument about anything. It keeps my mind in shape calisthenically (and at my age, that seems to be significant). I find verve, strength, and grace in a tight argument. I’m biased that way academically.
And I believe it *is* a bias.
One of many views among an infinite number of views is that there are many kinds of wisdom that can be expressed. Some come through myth (of religion, gods and goddesses, folklore, rituals and ceremonies, institutionalized practices), some come through instinct (which we can’t quite get a handle on), some come through hard-wired, fast-processing systems (so-called hot cognition—viz, “emotional responses”), some through perhaps more secular spiritual traditions (religions without gods), some are artistic expressions of various sorts, some are scientifically generated data which lack accepted theoretical interpretations (simply correlated or associations without causality), and so forth.
My minor point here simply means to recognize non-logical or illogical or pre-logical kinds of understanding that everyone uses daily, even hourly.
Stories can be codified knowledge.
There used to be three distinctions or presentations of knowledge representations. (i) semantic knowledge: the sort of things taught as principles in college; (ii) procedural knowledge: do step A, B, C, D, and finally E, and viola!, a given effect will be had; and (iii) episodic knowledge only able to be expressed through story: “I was once in Cleveland, and . . . .”
Stories can be codified knowledge representations. Drawing out the meat from any knowledge representation tends to rely upon keen interpretations. However, . . .
Once we find ourselves in recursive or reflexive, mutually causative loops of making interpretations of interpretations, then we would seem to be looking into mirrors looking into mirrors: mises en abyme. There would seem to be no real ground available to us. It would seem that we are all “just talking” (Derrida). And we seem to be enjoying it. :-)
Be well.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 22, 2017 - 08:49am PT
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France is about as democratic as you'll find.
Doc, stick to medicine, or do some reading before engaging yer pie hole. France has an overwhelming bureaucracy, they did coin the term, that envelopes all aspects of life there. That's why young French entrepreneurs go to London to start a business. In France it takes AT LEAST SIX MONTHS to wade through the red tape. In London three days. It has the highest percentage of the overall work force employed by the gubmint in all of Europe, second only to China, that other bastion of democracy. The president has powers unequalled in all of the civilized world, he's a virtual dictator, NTTAWWT per se. He can even dissolve the National Assembly if it so pleases him! Yeah, that's democratic, n'est ce pas? Gotta run - we have some French friends coming over.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 22, 2017 - 09:20am PT
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AND he was legitimately voted in, not the fake elections of your patron, Putin.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jul 22, 2017 - 10:27am PT
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Reilly shows his ignorance regarding Frances democratic system. Several countries we consider democratic have the ability to dissolve the parliament, which is then followed by an election. Several countries also have no-confidence votes which may bring down the cabinet.
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c wilmot
climber
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Jul 22, 2017 - 10:30am PT
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The US considers any stable country we plunge into a murderous chaos to be examples of "democracy"...
Reilly was spot on- read up on what France has been up to since the Paris attacks. Then read up on what macron has been doing.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jul 22, 2017 - 10:34am PT
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Not surprising in the least that Wilmont and Reilly think Macron is a dictator.
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