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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 1, 2017 - 06:45am PT
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Apparently, even in Sweden not all medical treatments are free.
In this case government bureaucrats decided that they should not pay to treat aggressive cancer of his daughter.
https://www.youcaring.com/linneanordstrom-760690
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apparently, even in Sweden not all medical treatments are free.
Whaaaaaaatttttttt??????
Noooooooooooooo! I refuse to accept this! It's a socialist PARADISE, the MODEL upon which the USA should be run in ALL respects! And THIS.... THIS slips through the cracks.
Unacceptable. We need to bring sanctions and threat of war to bear until those good socialists GET EVERYTHING that their extracted tax money is paying for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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MB STFU!
ROFL
Point you're missing is that there are ALWAYS exceptions to ANY sort of health-care approach. But you good socialists take exceptions and make them into rules. That is, of course, until one of your paragons has the exception.
The question ALWAYS is: What's the bang-for-the-buck? The good socialists decided that in this case there isn't the bang-for-buck. How DARE they?
In YOUR socialist utopia, SHOULD/MUST "we all" pay for a case like this???
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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No...
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hellroaring
Trad climber
San Francisco
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All politics & details aside, as a parent myself I can only imagine the anguish and desperation they must be feeling. She looks like a beautiful & happy little girl. My thoughts and prayers go out to them.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Cancer treatment in Mexico is cheap but generally a con. The Amish are permitted to resort to such alternative treatments, i see them traveling down to the border on the trolley. Tijuana is one of the major places in the world due to its close proximity to San Diego. All sorts of rackets down there, from horse urine to peach pits.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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You vote your conscience on this one if it comes to that and it has.
The "Go fund me" approach is common and in this case entirely ethical. That's the voting method.
She reminds me of Joan Benet Ramsey, BTW.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Cancer treatment in Mexico is cheap but generally a con. The Amish are permitted to resort to such alternative treatments, i see them traveling down to the border on the trolley. Tijuana is one of the major places in the world due to its close proximity to San Diego. All sorts of rackets down there, from horse urine to peach pits.
Yes. I canvassed a number of "alternative" clinics in Mexico as a way of covering all bases when I was dealing with cancer last year. Every clinic I talked to wanted between $20,000 and $30,000, up front in cash. Their treatments ranged from virotherapy injections, vitamin C infusions, juicing regimens, and hyperbaric chamber sessions. In no case could I get any of them to tell me if they had ever treated my type of cancer (Adrenal Cortical Carcinoma, which is a lethal, 'ultra-rare' neoplastic tumor with an incidence of one case per two million persons), much less had any success with it. They were recommending a treatment which has only been used for melanoma, and not with much success according to everyone except them. The only reason I looked into them in the first place was the treatment regimens for my cancer are largely ineffective and the prognosis is generally dire. In the end, most of these places, particularly the ones in Cancun, looked like an expensive "Club Med" resort that was being marketed to truly desperate people. I was not that desperate and decided to save my money, although I did adopt a new diet and sought continued treatment through a naturopathic doctor. The short version is, the Mexican clinics are selling a lot of false hope. Much of what they are selling are potentially good protocols for preventing cancer in healthy people, but they are selling their products to patients with stage 4 disease that is too far gone to make any difference, but who are near the end of life and have nothing to lose by spending the rest of their money on something different.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Madbolter strikes me as an angry, sad person who seems to be lacking something essential in his life. Having said that, cases like this always remind of the really old scam of the Spanish Prisoner, which is an old scam that dates back centuries (and the title of a great David Mamet film that touches on the subject). Not saying this isn't legitimate (damn Socialists!), but I always wonder what if anything that people do to verify the credibility of the claim.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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mark Westman above speaks volumes of truth,
The Mexican clinics fail on scientific, fiscal and ethical standards.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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mb1, a true christian.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Madbolter strikes me as an angry, sad person who seems to be lacking something essential in his life.
LOL, so the Fat one is a psychologist now. Keep trying.
It seems that libs "understand" human nature not at all.
You despise corporate welfare but LOVE individual welfare. You see corporations as evil, greedy, grasping, and thus not worthy of any "help." You fail to see that corporations are nothing if they are not a reflection of human nature: Evil, greedy, and grasping. You don't believe this about people, and you find a case like this one to be the "exemplar" you seek when it suits you. But this is also a CLASSIC example of the NECESSARY failure of all forms of socialism that are based upon stealing from people to hand to others.
There will always be the poor. There will always be people that got a raw deal, like this little girl and her family. There IS no utopia to be had. Not even CLOSE. And no matter how you try to mastermind a "safety net" for even the majority of cases, you'll only create more problems than you solve, just like Obambacare ENTIRELY screwed the middle class (about 100,000,000 people) to TRY to make things "better" for about 20,000,000, and dismally failed to do even that "better," because a $6,000 per year deductible is NOT "insurance" in the minds of most of those people that are now "insured."
But you never learn from your failures! Ever! Instead, the "party line" now is: The Repubs screwed everything up with Obamacare, so we couldn't get the plan we wanted. We really need single-payer.
And this is all an utter lie. You libs OWNED the entire government (including, obviously, the SCOTUS) while you crammed Obamacare down our throats without a single Repub vote. You had ABSOLUTE control, so you could have made Obamacare WHATEVER you wanted it to be. That clusterfvck is what YOU wanted, and it's what YOU passed. You own it entirely, and it is a creature of entirely and only YOUR creation.
Single-payer will be just another clusterfvck, because you learn NOTHING from your failures. And HERE, in this very sad case, we see somebody getting screwed by single-payer. They've PAID their exorbitant taxes, and the "care" they do need is NOT going to be paid for by the very system they have been forced to pay into.
Absolutely every question comes down to bang-for-buck, and Sweden made its decision in this family's case on that "harsh" but very real assessment.
You DODGE the pressing question: SHOULD Sweden have paid for experimental treatments? If such treatments offer even a SHRED of hope, isn't the grand-collective RESPONSIBLE to take care of this family???
You act like your press for a socialistic America is the "moral high ground," but you are ABSOLUTELY as arbitrary and bang-for-buck as the worst right-wingers you despise. You just set "the bar" wherever YOU "feel" and then DEMAND that everybody fall in line. So, what do you "feel" about this case??? Answer the question, or just admit that you are entirely as arbitrary and "immoral" as the right-wingers you despise.
I've said before, and I'll say again. I believe that ALL forms of tax-based welfare are wrong, whether you hand the extracted money to a corporation, a farm, or an individual. When you steal from people TO "redistribute" THEIR money to others, that is theft, and it's wrong. Period. You can "pretty it up" all you want, but it's still theft. YOU just want to have control over the theft, so you HATE the Repubs when THEY get to control the theft.
Their theft is "bad, bad, baddddd," while your theft is "good, good, good." So, since you are so "good, good, good," ANSWER the question.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Richard, isn't your God the one of love ? All gods seem to be, but the followers tend to mix up love with policy.
You confuse your sappy, sentimentalism with genuine love. For a Christian, "love" is defined in the commandments, among them, "Thou shalt not steal."
And you confuse voluntary charity with the FORCED extraction and redistribution of money that is NOT yours to so handle.
I've said before, and I'll rise to this challenge at ANY time: I'll post my latest-year (redacted) tax return to PROVE that I am among the top 1% in charitable giving. See if ANY of your hand-wringing libs can match me in charitable giving. Seriously. Post up and see if you come CLOSE to me in charitable giving.
And I give like that AFTER you've already extracted an obscene amount from me in taxes (Obamacare was a "tax," rememember?). YOU think that you "gave at the office" BY your taxes. But I pay your taxes AND give of what I have left.
So, you have ZERO moral high-ground to claim that I'm just "selfish," and I'll prove it. Post up. Show your taxes, and let's see if YOU put a dime of your money where your MOUTH is.
I'm talking about the principle of FORCED redistribution, while you act like this theft is moral. It is not. And it has NOTHING to do with the "love" espoused by Christianity.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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MB, you suffer from a lack of informed reasoning.
You can ask the vast, vast, majority of doctors, Right, Left, Center, Independent, Libertarian, your question, which you have surely not done.
The answer you will get:
SHOULD Sweden have paid for experimental treatments? If such treatments offer even a SHRED of hope, isn't the grand-collective RESPONSIBLE to take care of this family???
is "no". You would not believe the belief in the bizarre. I can't tell you how many people with terminal illnesses, facing the shutdown of their brain, ask if they could not get a "brain transplant". Has there ever been a brain transplant in the history of the world? No. And yet, they have a SHRED of hope, even though irrational.
Irrationality is a delusional state. Another opinion, sure. Reasonable. Even another.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Too bad her parents named her after a scientist instead of a saint - they could at least be praying for a miracle.
But on the plus side, she's cute and appeals to our human pocketbooks.
Best wishes to them.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Irrationality is a delusional state. Another opinion, sure. Reasonable. Even another.
Who are you to decide? Who is this or that particular society to decide?
CLEARLY the parents do not agree with you, as they are soliciting money from people who do NOT agree with your blithe assessment. So, I guess that (from afar, and, again, quite blithely), YOU are qualified to call them "irrational" and "delusional."
Good on ya! Wowwwww
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TwistedCrank
climber
Released into general population, Idaho
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MB1 sure types a lot.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Who are you to decide? Who is this or that particular society to decide?
CLEARLY the parents do not agree with you, as they are soliciting money from people who do NOT agree with your blithe assessment. So, I guess that (from afar, and, again, quite blithely), YOU are qualified to call them "irrational" and "delusional."
Good on ya! Wowwwww
I didn't decide, you must have misread the appeal. Who is a society to decide?
Who would you have decide? Your favorite neighborhood Death Panel?
Someone who is knowledgeable, professional, dispassionate, open to any arguments? Who? Are you going to force a physician who has NO experience in doing something, to do something highly risky? Are you going to force a hospital, who has no experience in doing something, to do something?
I can't speak for Sweden, but in the US, such an issue would probably be reviewed by an ethics committee, made up of people who are not involved in the care, including physician ethicists, nurses, non-healthcare professionals (lay public), clergy. They make recommendations to the Administrator of the Hospital and the treating team, as to the ethics of the situation.
Who would you have decide? Answer the question!
is "no". You would not believe the belief in the bizarre. I can't tell you how many people with terminal illnesses, facing the shutdown of their brain, ask if they could not get a "brain transplant". Has there ever been a brain transplant in the history of the world? No. And yet, they have a SHRED of hope, even though irrational.
Irrationality is a delusional state. Another opinion, sure. Reasonable. Even another.
If you care to read carefully, you will discern that it was a "brain transplant" that I labeled "irrational" and "delusional"---not the specifics of this case, which I don't know.
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