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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 23, 2018 - 02:18pm PT
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Evangelicals will probably be the first to abandon Trump.
I don't think so. I think it will be the moderates. Social liberals / economic conservatives who have somewhat of an open mind (not that there's many left that support Trump). Many ultra religious people can really delude themselves into believing what they need to believe and finding ways to make their supposed moral teachings fit immoral beliefs and actions (e.g. discrimination).
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 23, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
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Yet the DNC and Hillary get a pass for hiring a foreign national to get dirt from Russian officials. Hmm.
And there you have it. Unable to tell the difference in the law and what (likely) took place.
Accepting an illegal campaign contribution (thing of value) from hostile foreigners in exchange for foreign policy changes (Treason) is completely different from paying a British citizen to collect things of value with nothing else expected in return.
The real crime is what treasonous quid pro quo Cheeto the Ass Clown offered in exchange, which was an by all appearances the altering of USA Foreign Policy towards Russian criminal activity in Crimea and Ukraine. Basically accepting murder and annexation of sovereign territory in exchange for the info contrary to existing International and USA Law.
But that kind of treasony nuance is beyond you.
As I understand it, federal election laws have never been interpreted to make the mere transmission of information from anyone, foreign or domestic, illegal, and if they were so interpreted, they likely would be struck down as violative of the First Amendment.
The libs would love to try to restrict our freedom of speech rights, but we've finally got a court that takes the First Amendment seriously (see, e.g., Citizens United), so this lib pipe dream that that Trump is in trouble merely for obtaining info from the Russkies is just that.
(Now all bests are off if there was a quid pro quo, but good luck proving that!)
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2018 - 02:33pm PT
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The Dossier was, in no way backed by the British government or any government representative.
The Russian government and it's representatives conspired with representatives of an American campaign to subvert a fair election. This crime was committed when the infamous Trump Tower meeting occurred. The acceptance of the meeting under the pretext laid out in Don Jr's emails makes this a simple fact.
It's so cut and dry that one can't help but question the honesty of anyone that denies this.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Aug 23, 2018 - 03:00pm PT
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Accepting an illegal campaign contribution (thing of value) from hostile foreigners in exchange for foreign policy changes (Treason)
Nice bit of fiction.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 23, 2018 - 03:10pm PT
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What the public knows is Trump Jr. met with Russians for the purpose of getting damaging info about Hillary and then he and Trump lied about it, I doubt that's against the law, but why lie about it if it was legal? (well Trump IS an incompetent buffoon). But it's enough to launch an investigation. We don't know what Mueller knows. Did Trump's team know the info was from illegal hacking? If yes, then that's conspiracy. Is there evidence that Trump said he'd give them favorable treatment? If yes then he's selling out the country for his political gain. If they were just stupid and brought this on themselves and there's no more evidence of wrogn doing then I have no pity for them because they lied.
There's plenty of smoke but no fire yet, but again we don't know what Mueller has, and he's smart enough to not indicate what's in his hand.
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 23, 2018 - 03:15pm PT
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It’s quite silly and naive that some folks think this should’ve been wrapped up by now.
This is why it takes so long:
“A conspiracy like this...a conspiracy investigation...the rope has to tighten slowly around everyone's neck. You build convincingly from the outer edges in, you get ten times the evidence you need against the Hunts and the Liddys. They feel hopelessly finished - they may not talk right away, but the grip is on them. Then you move up and do the same thing at the next level. If you shoot too high and miss, then everyone feels more secure. Lawyers work this way.”
-Deep Throat, 1972
Watergate took 2 years to investigate.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2018 - 03:22pm PT
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1. Met with, not just Russians, rather Russian representatives as documented in the email.
2. To receive something of value for the Trump campaign from the Russian Representatives as stated by the Russian representatives in the email and replied to, specifically related to the thing of value by Don Jr.
There is no grey area.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Aug 23, 2018 - 03:29pm PT
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Mostly you are wasting your time trying to explain to Trump voters collusion between Team Trump and Foreign governments.
They prove with every post they do not have the depth of intellect to understand the concepts.
Better to try to get them to understand that Donald Trump can now be indicted for at least two Felonies, trying to influence his own election results by ordering payment to silence women.
Keep it simple, remember who they voted for and incredibly still support.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 23, 2018 - 03:32pm PT
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@realputinsb*tch is making Tricky Dick look like a choir boy.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 23, 2018 - 03:37pm PT
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The mere act of soliciting foreign election assistance violates Federal campaign laws. Nothing has to be received, at all, for the crime to occur, and for a conviction to be obtained.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20
11 CFR 110.20 (g) Solicitation, acceptance, or receipt of contributions and donations from foreign nationals.
No person shall knowingly solicit, accept, or receive from a foreign national any contribution or donation prohibited by paragraphs (b) through (d) of this section.
When Donald "Junior Mint" Trump agreed to meet with Kremlin representatives at Trump Tower to obtain "dirt on Clinton", he violated Federal campaign law. When he lied under oath to Congress about the meeting, he committed perjury. When he conspired with his father to obstruct Mueller's investigation, he committed yet another felony.
Trump claims "no collusion" because "nothing came of it".
That is similar to a robber waving a gun around, and then claiming no crime was committed because the bank tellers didn't give him any money.
A similar situation occurs with respect to conspiracy. The mere act of planning to commit a crime with others is a crime, in and of itself. The underlying crime does not have to take place. This is what happens when police discover, and disrupt, a plan to detonate a bomb. Even if the bomb is never made, the crime of conspiracy exists because of the cooperative intent to commit the crime.
Solicitation of murder-for-hire is another example of a crime that exists without a separate, intended crime being committed.
Trump's forthcoming false defense that his campaign staff was a gaggle of fools, who were ignorant of Federal election laws, has been preemptively refuted by Trump himself - Paul Manafort worked on the presidential campaigns of both Ronald Reagan and Bob Dole.
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I try to provide supporting facts, whenever possible, unless I am just blowing "truthful hyperbole" out there for comedic effect.
It is truly astonishing that Fox News, and others, will falsely broadcast that "no such campaign law exists", when a ten-second Google search proves them to be liars.
We are living in Orwellian times. There is an ongoing battle for reality, and the opposition, Fox News, presents tabloid trash fiction as if it were legitimate, factual information. Sadly, many Americans are unable to separate reality from what they would like reality to be. Fox News preys on those people by telling them what they want to hear. The same people are easy prey for unscrupulous salesmen, like Donald Trump, who will lie if they think that is what people want to hear.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 23, 2018 - 03:54pm PT
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When Donald "Junior Mint" Trump coordinated with the Russians' representative, Rob Goldstone, to set up the meeting at Trump Tower, to obtain "dirt on Clinton", he violated Federal campaign laws. When he lied under oath to Congress about the meeting, he committed perjury. When he conspired with his father to obstruct Mueller's investigation, he committed yet another felony.
What's the campaign law violated for setting up the meeting? Edit: I see you added it above. Real facts (vs. unsupported opinions) are most appreciated!
I forgot he lied under oath, ouch. It's telling how quiet Mueller and others have been about this stuff. Indicates he has bigger fish to fry and I wouldn't be surprised if it's the tip of the iceberg and he has evidence of even more serious stuff.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Aug 23, 2018 - 04:07pm PT
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So far, so good,
The slugs are turning, yellow belly's to the salt, leaving a slime trail
& the right man in is in jail.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Aug 23, 2018 - 04:08pm PT
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One has to wonder^^^^^^^^^^^
He will never be re-elected.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 23, 2018 - 04:29pm PT
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I forgot he lied under oath, ouch. It's telling how quiet Mueller and others have been about this stuff. Indicates he has bigger fish to fry and I wouldn't be surprised if it's the tip of the iceberg and he has evidence of even more serious stuff.
Mueller's investigation can be compared to a TV poker game. Mueller is playing steadily and silently, growing his stack of chips.
Trump and his supporters are like the obnoxious poker player Phil Hellmouth, who attempts to disrupt his opponent's game with absurd challenges, such as to reveal what he's holding before the hand has been completely played. And, like Hellmouth, when Trumplicans lose they falsely complain that the winner didn't play the game properly.
The Mueller Maelstrom has not even reached Category One status yet. When it spins up to speed, and begins to feed off of two years of investigative pressure, it will reach at least Category Five status.
The people denying that Mueller has anything on Trump are like people at Mar-A-Lago looking at a clear sky, and disputing what the National Weather Service says is headed their way.
When I get around to it, I will draw up the temperature-entropy (T-S) diagram for the Mueller Cycle, and compare it to the T-S diagram for a hurricane. The main difference is that the Mueller Cycle is predominantly driven by pressure, while a hurricane is predominantly driven by heat.
The four stages of the basic Mueller Cycle are:
INTAKE - cooperative witnesses are drawn into an investigation
COMPRESSION - pressure is applied to the witnesses by prosecutors
IGNITION - explosive witness testimony supplies power back to the prosecutors
EXHAUST - the witnesses are discharged to the atmosphere, or into a Federal detention facility for a subsequent extraction process
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 23, 2018 - 05:21pm PT
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Thanks Tom, it is proving true
Trump has entered the Querencia Phase of his presidency.
Just last week, Trump sued porn star Stormy Daniels for $20 million. He then fired Deputy FBI Director Andrew McCabe, 26 hours short of retiring with his pension. Trump's lawyers have demanded an end to all investigations into White House malfeasance.
These intimidation moves are the desperate actions of a madman who has been backed into a corner. Wild-eyed and crazy, foaming at the mouth, Trump is grasping at something - anything - to stave off the inevitable. He is attempting to distract, confuse, intimidate and stall his pursuers, hoping that some sort of Deus ex Machina miracle - as seen on TV - will magically materialize, and lift him from the bottomless pit of turpitude he has dug himself into.
To borrow a metaphor from a sport as barbaric and bloody as modern D.C. politics, Trump has entered the Querencia Phase of his presidency. This is when a bull in a ring realizes that the matador is finally closing in for the kill. At this point, the bull will retreat to an area of the ring that he deems a safe haven, so that he can regroup, rethink, plan, and muster the last of his strength to prepare for the epic, final battle that he knows he cannot win.
This is when the bull is most unpredictable and dangerous. A bull in the Querencia Phase of the fight must be handled very carefully, or disaster will ensue. One misstep, mistake or misjudgement can give the victory to the bull.
A querencia is a place the bull naturally wants to go to in the ring, a preferred locality... It is a place which develops in the course of the fight where the bull makes his home. It does not usually show at once, but develops in his brain as the fight goes on. In this place he feels that he has his back against the wall and in his querencia he is inestimably more dangerous and almost impossible to kill.
Ernest Hemingway, Death in the Afternoon (courtesy Wikipedia.com)
Make no mistake: Trump has no intention of going down without taking out the matador and as much of the audience as he can. His self-image, as a godlike entity, requires a heroic and cataclysmic final act to punish those who have challenged his divinity and omnipotence.
Nixon had the decency to resign, for the benefit of the nation, when he entered his own unavoidable Querencia Phase. Trump has no such decency. And neither did Saddam Hussein, who burned the Iraqi oil wells on his way out.
The TV scene that plays over and over in Trump's mind these days is that of James Cagney, going down amid gunfire and flames:
Made it, Ma! Top of the World!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 23, 2018 - 05:24pm PT
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I am NostraThomas
As before, it is important to realize that Trump will become more erratic and unpredictable and dangerous as the various investigations close in on him. He has fortified himself within a fortress of straw, and it's about to go up in flames.
Here is what CNN White House Reporter Kaitlan Collins said yesterday to Anderson Cooper:
"In terms of the mood in the White House, and people working there, what are you hearing?"
"Well, it's a little dark, because the President himself is in a very bad mood. He did not see what happened with Michael Cohen coming, his top lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, is currently out of the country, and those who know the President best, and who work with him every day, say that he seems like he's backed into a corner and they truly, Anderson, don't know what it is that the President is going to do next in response to all of this."
Compare that to what Michael Cohen decided to do. He knows that there is no getaway end-game to all of this. Eventually, truth and facts will prevail. Cohen stopped, rationally evaluated his situation, and did the logical thing.
Trump is so self-absorbed, over-confident and delusional, it is unlikely that he will come to his senses, the way that Cohen did. Manafort's obstinance seems to be encouraging Trump to "be brave" and "not break", even though Manafort's motivation for silence may be knowing how the Kremlin's Russian Mafia gangsters deal with opponents and enemies.
Trump supporters, and even some detractors, say that Trump is genuinely confused why he is being pursued by investigators. Trump believes that "everybody does it", and that he is being uniquely singled out for persecution. For that reason, Trump will continue his battle with reality, and will continue to gain confidence from his enablers, like Hannity, who echo Trump's false reality.
This situation is not even close to being over, or even reaching its thunderous crescendo. The inertia and momentum exchange occurring in this situation can be only partially understood by comparisons to Watergate and Whitewater. What is happening now is totally unprecedented in United States history.
MAGA = Mueller Annihilates Gangster Administration
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Trump's denial that the Code of Federal Regulations exists, and is knowable, is a perfect example of Trump's inventing a delusional false reality as a convenient artifice within which he can cocoon himself and hide from the reality of the real world.
Trump's Fox News acolytes echo his delusions, which metastasizes Trump's mental defect throughout his body politic. #SAD
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Aug 23, 2018 - 05:36pm PT
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Hey!
He was just paying some women he’d had affairs with, while he was married to Melania, to not go public with the details, just before the election.
“No collusion, no affairs, no crimes,” should be starting to alarm some of his less-stupid followers.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump on Wednesday said the campaign finance violations his longtime lawyer Michael Cohen pleaded guilty to in federal court on Tuesday were “not a crime,” even though prosecutors and Cohen agreed they were.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump/trump-claims-cohens-campaign-finance-violations-are-not-a-crime-idUSKCN1L71GV
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Aug 23, 2018 - 06:03pm PT
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Coverup_fefe
It's spreading like hoof and mouth disease.
If President Donald Trump were impeached, "the American people would revolt," the President's lawyer Rudy Giuliani said
Unretouched photo of ghoul_iani
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