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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jun 19, 2017 - 08:49pm PT
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Werner: The number one mystical in science is mathematics because no one knows what mathematics is.
But, .... without mathematics modern science can not even exist ......
Werner, you win the prize. :) I was once quoted, "If you can't express it in numbers, it is not reality." I was young and very arrogant then. I now know better, but only sometimes. :)
Anyway, thank you for that.
FF
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 19, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
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without mathematics modern science can not even exist
it could be the other way around, that is, mathematics is a consequence of the physical universe, it is as good a speculation as yours.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:01pm PT
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it is as good a speculation as yours.
Sorry ED I didn't speculate.
That was from Penrose himself.
Never underestimate what you'll find ........
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:10pm PT
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And the good old OED, Third Edition, on the word
metaphysics > plural noun (usu. treated as sing.)
"the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, identity, time, and space. ~ abstract theory with no basis in reality: his concepts of society as an organic entity is, for market liberals, simply metaphysics.
Metaphysics has two main strands: that which holds that what exists lies beyond experience (as argued by Plato), and that which holds that objects of experience constitute the only reality (as argued by Kant, the logical positivists, and Hume).
-Derivatives metaphysician noun
-Origin mid 16th cent.: representing medieval Latin metaphysica (neuter plural), based on Greek ta meta ta phusika 'the things after physics' referring to the sequence of Aristotle's works: the title came to denote the branch of study treated in the books, later interpreted as meaning 'the science of things transcending what is physical or natural'.
It might help this highly entertaining discussion if there could develop a common lexicon. Does this help?
ff
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:30pm PT
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That was from Penrose himself.
you're saying that Penrose wasn't speculating? if he was that would make you a second hand speculator...
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:37pm PT
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I didn't say any such thing.
You are projecting.
I said that came from Penrose and that I wasn't wasn't speculating.
That was all.
Whether Penrose is speculating or not is YOUR problem, not mine .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:45pm PT
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So feralfae, it looks like you now understand - thanks to Bob - that I did NOT misquote you after all. So where IS my apology?!
Then there's this... "Shame" "inadequate comprehension" "ill?" "inadequate intelligence" - So it appears you can be just as snarky as the rest of them, no? Despite your "higher spirituality" after all? lol
Waiting...
paul roehl: "Yeah, really thoughtful and well said."
feralfae: +1
madbolter1: "scientists pontificate..."
WB: "I applaud Madbolter..."
Friggin hilarious!
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:50pm PT
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Ed: it could be the other way around, that is, mathematics is a consequence of the physical universe, it is as good a speculation as yours.
Ed, no one has stated that the physical universe is a consequence of mathematics. No one.
What has been stated is that modern science could not exist without mathematics. I think that is a given. The elegance of being able to express relational physical reality through such simple terms as are readily understood by almost all physicists is a result of the continual development of mathematical applications to express theoretical propositions in measurable terms. Without these closely reasoned means of expressing these phenomenon, they could not be tested, refuted, verified or modified.
But I think you are just entertaining yourself with this argument. :) As we all probably are. :)
ff
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:54pm PT
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The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.
Robertson Davies
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:55pm PT
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HFCS: Bob made it plain that I did not say or write that. Read his comment again, please.
I am getting worried about you.
Are you all right?
ff
Bob: "The only one having a meltdown is the simpleton dufus who said it has begun .....
feralfae"
Werner's work, not feralfae.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:57pm PT
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The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.
Robertson Davies
Yes ... very good.
Unless of course, one uses the 3rd eye then one becomes safe .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:58pm PT
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fae feral... Maybe it's YOUR comprehension? Go back yourself and read the original post. Carefully. I quoted you as expressing "+1 ff".
What YOU attributed to yourself I attributed correctly to WB.
I am getting worried about you. Are you all right? -feralfae Snarky feralfae!
Waiting, waiting for TWO apologies now, fae...
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:59pm PT
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HFSC, I am not following you.
To agree with a statement is not to claim authorship of those words, which you attributed to me. Do you comprehend that?
And what's going on with you that you are resorting to ad hominem remarks? That is not like you, I would not think. I was being very snarky, and am fairly proud of escaping occasionally from my usually polite prose. But I see now there is some personal antipathy, which snarks at the politeness or at the snarkyness. And attributed words to me that I did not say. I think perhaps you are best ignored.
ff
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 19, 2017 - 10:01pm PT
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I'm done with you.
See the trouble you cause, WB.
You guys deserve each other.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 19, 2017 - 10:02pm PT
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It was you Fruit who screwed up not me ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 19, 2017 - 10:05pm PT
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But I think you are just entertaining yourself with this argument.
actually not, I've post links to work so speculating, that is, mathematics has an empirical origin.
Galileo outlined the role of mathematics in physics, so certainly that is not a new idea.
But serious physical thinking about such things as the origin of mathematics, space, time, are certainly a part of physics today.
WBraun: you're so serious...
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jun 19, 2017 - 10:09pm PT
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And now, back to the discussion about . . . wait! What were were talking about? Oh, yes— all things considered (which is impossible, but pretend a balanced perspective) then, the question remains: Is Religion Doing More Harm Than Good These Days?
I am enjoying the recent commentary on physics and metaphysics. People actually arguing about Hume, for goodness sakes! :) Lovely.
ff
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jun 19, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
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Sorry, Ed, that last comment was not directed at you, but to move beyond the little kerfuffle.
Yes, I have long been fascinated by the history and prehistory of mathematical thought. Where are the linked articles you mention mentioned? Or I can go search, so if it is a bother, don't.
thank you,
ff
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 19, 2017 - 10:14pm PT
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Here, Snarky Fae, parse this cut n paste carefully...
I applaud Madbolter1 for his nice thought out analysis.
The only one having a meltdown is the simpleton dufus who said it has begun
feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
Jun 19, 2017 - 01:19pm PT
Werner: I applaud Madbolter1 for his nice thought out analysis.
+1
ff
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
Jun 19, 2017 - 01:49pm PT
I applaud Madbolter1 for his nice thought out analysis.
Yeah, really thoughtful and well said.
Waiting for that apology still...
Are you a man or mouse, squeak up.
The kerfuffle aside: "+1" to the WB comment: I applaud MB1 for his "nice" "thought-out" analysis? REALLY, feralfae?
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