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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2017 - 09:41am PT
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healje,
I met you once at the Gordon ranch and you seemed like a nice guy.
We had a beer and talked for awhile.
You may still be that but you are ignorant of the facts of the WR closure.
This 'petition' is a 10 minute process and only helps to let USFW know people are still aware of their lack of action.
I've done much more for this cause over the past 12 years.
There's a word for people that critique when ignorant of facts but it's not very nice.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Done. Keep up the pressure. I miss that place.
BAd
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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You may still be that but you are ignorant of the facts of the WR closure.
One way or another I've been involved with the politics of a few of these situations both in climbing and outside of it. I don't need to know the specifics or the facts to understand those two statements and the 'petition' itself are entirely counterproductive. Again, it's not about 'the facts' of the WR closure - it's about whether you're serious about getting the place reopened or not - if you are, then that petition is just a stupid move.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2017 - 10:18am PT
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Dude,
Don't you have something better to do than bitch about my efforts to get a local crag reopened?
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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It seems that over the years since Willy has been closed and it has been MANY years, the most vocal climbing critics against trying to get it reopened are those who don't live in the immediate area and who's home crags are JT, Yosemite or some other area far from Willy and they wouldn't be climbing there to begin with. The frustration is that it has been 12 years, thats a stinking long time. The Forest Service has dragged it's feet, the Sierra Club has spent a lot of money to make sure it stays closed as has the CBD. Locals are essentially powerless and these groups know it. Whether the petition does any good or not is not really the point in my opinion, the point is at least it gives us a voice. Believe me, the petition isn't going to hinder any process, at worse the powers that be will look at it and say BFD and sh#t can it and at best they will look at it and realize this is not going unnoticed. As much as I think Trump is a total d#@&%ebag this political climate may be the time to press hard for change and keep the pressure on not only the NFS but also the AF, I think it's time for the AF to use some of those lobbyists in Washington for our cause here in So Cal.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Whether the petition does any good or not is not really the point in my opinion, the point is at least it gives us a voice.
If that's the sort of voice you want then, hey, go for it.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Better than no voice. 12 years is long time not to have access to the best summer crag in So Cal. It's easy for everyone who doesn't live in the area to say just give it time let the system work. I worked in govt. for 30 years and I know what happens when you just let the govt system work, it doesn't.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I thought the petition was not particularly well written and made some over generalizations. Having said, I gladly signed it. pud took the effort to get this together in the hopes of driving this thing forward, which is a hell of a lot more than I've done, so I'm in no position to criticize. Hopefully, this the start of the process. If so, there will be plenty of opportunity to revise and restate.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Using a anonymous moniker - i.e 'pud' - makes it difficult to associate that with 'Johnathan Burnes' which I now realize is the case. Sorry, had no idea, but just objectively call them like I see them when it comes to this kind of politics. But it's a case where pent up climber frustrations and emotions work against their own agendas which is a big reason for the AF - policy wonks who can operate more objectively. Maybe run it by them and work on something AF could sign onto...
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Joe is trying to help you pud, don't be a Trump about it.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2017 - 12:21pm PT
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Jon, Joe,
How 'bout you guys put together a more eloquent Statement of facts and start a petition?
One big reason WR remains closed is the apathy of the local climbing community. It takes time, effort, money and commitment to accomplish what is needed here.
I can take the criticism but, would respect a real effort by those critics much more.
Edit:
The passion I see in the comment section of the petition signers is reward enough for me. I can only hope these comments are included when this petition makes it to the USFW offices. I will place a follow up call to make sure it does.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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I signed because something is better than nothing and overcoming the inertia of doing nothing is important. That said, I think it would get more respect if it acknowledged the substance of the original closure and made a rational argument for why it does not apply and show flexibility to find a compromise if there is in fact a demonstrable impact on a frog population in that region.
One could make a strong case that changing local climate with less precipitation, coupled with devastating local fire, has pushed out the frogs from what was at best a tenuous foothold in a biological island isolated from a sustainable population in an area with a compatible environment.
A compromise position might be to (1) identify examples where human impact in the immediate area has a causal link to declining frog populations (e.g. from denuding vegetation or compacting soil that removes micro-habitats), and if this is demonstrable in this or other places, then there can be a cooperative plan to protect the specific micro-habitats. For example, enlist climbers to build fences and do trail work to protect the critical areas. It might be more complicated if the method of impact is chemical contamination of the water, such as from sunscreen, lotions, soaps, perfumes. I haven't researched this at all to know if there have been studies identifying mechanisms like these.
In any case, a more open approach like this will garner more support, rather than being perceived by non-climbers as just another ignorant selfish user community that wants to have their own fun while ignoring the damage they cause, like those off-road yahoos driving their vehicles over desert vegetation.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2017 - 12:29pm PT
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An approach like this will garner more support, rather than being perceived by non-climbers as just another ignorant selfish user community that wants to have their own fun while ignoring the damage they cause, like those off-road yahoos driving their vehicles over desert vegetation.
Please read the comment section of signers. I doubt anyone would perceive these folks as you describe.
I think what some here may not understand is that I have sat in offices on more than one occasion with representatives from all the agencies involved.
They are well aware of, and admit, their decisions were forced by the lawsuits referred to.
Troy tried dealing with these agencies with kid gloves in the beginning and it backfired.
Frank and open discussion is what is needed from all interested parties.
We can be both assertive and persistent while still being open to the concerns of others and looking for solutions that satisfy as many communities of interest as possible.
Agreed.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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I agree that the more comments that create a more nuanced perspective of the climbing community will be a good thing that enriches the quality of the petition. You get major kudos for creating momentum for other people to pile onto. It's always easier to point out what's wrong with something than to take a stand and do something.
My feedback to you was trying to think about it from the perspective of someone with a vested interest in not making any special efforts to change the status quo. It is harder to get a friendly ear and respect from someone outside of our "special interest group" (climbers) if we don't show a friendly ear and respect to other special interest groups. We can be both assertive and persistent while still being open to the concerns of others and looking for solutions that satisfy as many communities of interest as possible.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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we should have a protest like standing rock. except we show up with AR10s
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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The Forest Supervisor of the Angeles has adopted a money savings via area closure policy.
It started with broken glass and soiled diapers left at streamside picnic grounds, easier to just lock them out than clean that up again... but now any area closure is a management policy advantage.
I took a forest management grad course from the manager of one of the largest forests in the country.
He said any impact related dispute was not winnable by anyone but him. he was correct. for any study privately funded that produced a given opinion, he could produce ten studies to the contrary.. he was the forest manager, he said he could produce a ten inch stack of studies to anyone else's half inch thick report...
If the supervisor does not want the perceived or real liability of climbers in her area, then she will succeed to keep the area closed. reality.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2017 - 09:37pm PT
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It's not up to the Supervisor at the ANF.
The Fish and Wildlife Service could open WR tomorrow if they were willing to fight the lawsuits brought by those wishing to keep it closed.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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and you think the Forest Supervisor has not weighed in with Wildlife??
really?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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What sort of outreach has there been to educate the groups that bring the lawsuits? If there is no substance to their lawsuits, then a rational discussion and examination of facts can change that dynamic. If there is a substance to their lawsuits, then we can work with them to develop a strategy to address that substance without shutting down the area.
I am not well-versed in the history of the conflict or the parties involved, but it seems more effective to work directly with the objecting parties unless they live in a post-fact haze.
This is where some basic diplomacy and willingness to see things from different perspectives and compromise comes into play.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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What sort of outreach has there been to educate the groups that bring the lawsuits?
Outreach to the CBD? BwaHaHaHa! That's some pie in the sky crazy talk!
There's no scientific basis to this BS, it's just lawyers being lawyers.
They gots legal cred but that don't make it right.
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