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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jan 23, 2017 - 02:03pm PT
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Why do people that favor making abortion illegal use the same arguments that Conservatives used once upon a time to justify slavery?
I guess they think a women's body is the property of the slave owner.
Liberal = liberty = freedom for all from repression and Oppression by the Government or any other source (Corporations)
Conservative = desires oppression of others that are deemed to require repression (ie; women)
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Jan 23, 2017 - 04:36pm PT
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Why abortion?
Because women DIE when they haven't the option to terminate pregnancy.
Without adequate birth control, a woman who becomes sexually active at around 21 years of age can have eight, ten, twelve OR MORE births(and numerous more pregnancies that spontaneously abort) before she reaches the Thank God Ledge of menopause. You know what happens to a body that goes through pregnancy time and time again, with little room to recoup in between bouts? Or to a woman's mind, forced to withstand year after year after year of baby-bearing? To a marriage under the stress of financial pressure to support children in some plausible manner?
You may not care, but I saw it firsthand, being the fourth of eight children born within eight years, plus one miscarriage for my mother along the way. My older brother was 51 weeks older than I, and my next born sister 14 months, one week younger.
One month after having her eight child, at the age of thirty-six, she had a heart attack . It was directly related to the stress of year after year of pregnancy and childbirth. She nearly died. I remember the day of panic in the house. At four years old I was told "Go to Mrs. Kurth's house." She was our next door neighbor, an eight of a mile away. I watched my parents drive off with no further information, and I sat at the boundary of our yard, afraid to walk into a land I had never ventured, unsure whether Mrs. Kurth was even expecting me, or whether my arrival would be welcome.
She came back home several weeks later, and we were told "Mom needs to rest; you need to be quiet and not bother her."
As she regained her physical strength, the emotional toll began to show, and so she went to the doctor for advise. He told her to get a tank of Guppy fish, because watching them would be soothing.
When she reported back that it didn't seem to be working, he prescribed Valium, and thus began a years long life of addiction.
He also told her that under no circumstances should she become pregnant again, because she would almost certainly not survive.
My father was Catholic, my mother a converted Pretestent. The had to go to the parish priest and ASK if it was okay to use birth control. he denied her that reprieve.
F*#K YOU, people who are SO DAMNED pro-life that you can't have mercy for those already living and in fear for their lives, their futures, and the futures of those they love. F*#K you.
It was not so many years ago that men had to be held legally liable to support the children they fathered; they were so willing to walk away and not look back at real live, innocent children.
No. We are NOT going to accept backstepping into slavery. I am one of the lucky ones. I never had to make the decision on abortion. But I have sat with women who went through the procedure, and have had my shoulder cried on decades later by women still in mourning.
NO.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Jan 23, 2017 - 05:03pm PT
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powerful post Happiegrrrl2...thanks for sharing your life experiences and perspective.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 23, 2017 - 05:13pm PT
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Thanks sycorax and Happie, good stuff.
Now if you could just quiet down and let the men decide what's good for you..
Best alternative fact I read today: The women's marches were only because they had all booked rooms far in advance, in anticipation of Hillary's victory. It wasn't until after the election that they all decided to keep their rooms and organize a protest.
So it was all just a hotel reservation thing. Simple eh?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2017 - 05:15pm PT
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Most Pro lifers *believe* the souls enters at conception, so I can understand how they want to protect it.
But In America we have freedom. I don't believe the soul enters at conception. If there was any real evidence of this I would. So a zygote or embryo is not an "child" to me and many woman who want the freedom to make their own choices about their bodies and reproductive rights.
Pro lifers are trying to impose their religious beliefs on others. And that doesn't fly with millions of people.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 23, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
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I don't believe the soul enters at conception. If there was any real evidence of this I would.
As a secular humanist who does not believe that the body and soul can exist one without the other - a basic tenet of religions - I'll agree with you. But your point begs some questions which we cannot avoid.
How long after our cells begin to differentiate does the growing body begin to develop awareness? I'll argue that it is awareness which gives birth to the soul, the consciousness of a living being.
So if we're willing to consider this idea, and do away with the ridiculous notion that the baby is not a living organism with awareness and soul until the exact moment of birth, then we must decide: At what point during the development of the fetus does it become aware. From an entirely non-religious perspective I think that is the time when the fetus cannot morally be destroyed, other than under various sets of special circumstances. Risk to the mother (really a personal decision of the parents. Some mother's would willingly die to give birth to a healthy child). Gross deformity.
So if we posit that there is a point when the fetus becomes alive, it becomes critical, from a moral standpoint to abort the pregnancy before that time.
Question. Typically, how long after conception is it before a woman who's paying attention will realize she is probably pregnant?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 23, 2017 - 06:10pm PT
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Ksolem, I believe VERY FEW, would argue the moment of birth as a starting point.
That's why there has been such a fight over first trimester, second, etc.
But a woman's right to choose must be protected.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Jan 23, 2017 - 06:24pm PT
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There is a coordinated effort by the Right, to continue to attack abortion AND BIRTH CONTROL, state by state.
Pro-Life, for the LAWMAKERS, is about keeping women in a place of servitude and vulnerability. It is about keeping men without means chained to shitty jobs to support children.
When lawmakers who cater to the pro-life demographic are trying to actively prevent women from obtaining birth control--which they are--I don't know how it's possible for people to remain convinced that those legislators care about life. If they're trying to keep women from obtaining birth control (which lowers abortion rates), their objective can only be to take away women's freedoms...
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Jan 23, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
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When I was in Catholic grade school(1968-76), we were taught that when the woman feels the "quickening," that is due to the soul uniting with the body. Quickening means the woman is able to perceive what is described as fluttering sensations, to fetus has begun to have some motion, within her body.
This was taught to us as being THE miracle of life, when God matched a soul with a body. Babies that were spontaneously aborted before the quickening didn't receive the same chance at Heaven as a baby born and Christened. They were to be left forever wandering Limbo, neither Heaven nor Hell. Heck - a baby who died before they were Christened didn't even count as "fully worthy" of Heaven as one who had the sacrament performed upon them.
If we're going to have to go with "at conception," then why the push to disallow a woman's choice to disallow conception, and why isn't there a brouhaha brewing to make vasectomies illegal????
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Jan 23, 2017 - 07:13pm PT
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Sounds like you have a problem with religion and lack of "adequate birth control". Tell the religion that denied your mother birth control to take a hike, don't blame the unborn child for the failings of a religious institution.
I am a Christian, Fake Philo. I follow CHRIST'S suggestions, not those made by men seeking control over the masses to get the "Trickle Up" siphon started. And what on Earth besides "take a hike" do you think we Pro-Choicers ARE telling those religions and the politicians who are SELLING OUT the women of the world for their support????
WHEN did I "blame" any fetus? Screw you, bucko.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2017 - 11:58pm PT
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Ksolem thoughtful post. Thanks.
Awareness is an interesting criteria I hadn't thought about. Awareness also leads to the possibility of suffering. Which of course should be avoided.
A criteria also used is viability outside the womb. I think of course, unless of special circumstances like the mothers life is in jeopardy, a viable fetus should be protected. I have no problem calling him/her at that stage an unborn child.
But an embryo is not a child to me. And calling it as such is an attempt to manipulate.
I don't know exactly where the cut off should be legally.
I think many women nowadays are aware of their pregnancy after 6-8 weeks when they miss their period and take a pregnancy test.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Jan 24, 2017 - 08:29am PT
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I think of course, unless of special circumstances like the mothers life is in jeopardy, a viable fetus should be protected. I have no problem calling him/her at that stage an unborn child.
This is a feeling that I am almost certain the majority of people who are not mentally ill would share.
So - without searching for information - ask yourself this question: At what week in a pregnancy do I think that viability might occur? Make a note of your thought, and then, click below:
https://www.reference.com/health/can-5-month-old-fetus-survive-outside-womb-c82c3442d96b69b3
And then, consider what the circumstances tend to REALLY BE with late term abortions.
http://www.livescience.com/56570-late-term-abortions-presidential-debate.html
and this:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2016/10/20/no-late-term-abortions-dont-rip-babies-out-of-wombs-but-they-are-needed/#635fc7d31bc4
The Abortion Abolitionist movement(whis IS alive and well, or sick, really) would have us believe that women are willy-nilly procrastinating about aborting fetus' at six months and more, simply becaue they have decided they don't want a baby, after all. THIS IS A LIE.
My sister in law delivered a baby, very much wanted, when it was on the cusp of viability. The chances for survival were really low, and luckily my brother worked at Kohler Company which had such good insurance that he paid ten dollars for the four days of neonatal intensive care their son endured before he was allowed to pass away. Truthfully, he would have died very soon after being delivered, had it not been for medicine's ability to "play God."
Oh, how my sister-in-law suffered, holding on to such a slim thread of hope as she watched her tiny infant in his incubator. I will NEVER forget the look of anguish on my brother's face, as he came out of the church at funeral, carrying that wee little casket.
They did not know there was a problem which made the early labor begin. The spontaneous, late-term abortion came - perhaps mercifully - for them, without their having to be placed in the position of making the decision that others are faced with. But of course later, when the doctors told them of the impossibility for the baby to survive, they were faced with the decision, and it was perhpas what the true definition of being in Hell really is. Mercifully(again, that word...) a family who has never seen the baby suffering for days after delivery is spared at least THAT. I visited that baby in hospital. His delicate, unready for life outside the womb, stomach lining was shreaded from the caustic drugs which were "keeping him alive." It was clear that he was in despair. I am crying as I write of this recollection.
That baby has a memorial. A weeping angel sits at the head of his grave, which his mother regulaly visits, twenty-something years later. ALL PEOPLE who have to make that wrenching decision to abort late term consider it a horrible positon to endure, and also grieve the loss of their child. I don't know, but I don't doubt a good number of them have held funerals and, just as my sister-in-law and brother do, consider that chld to be just that, a child, which has died.
SHAME ON THOSE WHO TWIST THIS LOSS INTO, TO USE A WORD DU JOUR, AN "ALTERNATIVE FACT." SHAME! And since they almost certainly believ in a day of judgement at life's end, I hope that God sets them straight on the actual facts of life.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 24, 2017 - 09:33am PT
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So it was all just a hotel reservation thing. Simple eh?
So explain all the cities other than Wa, DC, where marches occurred.
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TacomaDome
Trad climber
Tacoma, WA
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Jan 24, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
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I heard that Donna Hylton (Hilton) was a speaker at the Women's March on Washington. It is pretty disturbing that this woman is given a voice, considering her past. Why would a group that is opposed to abuse, sexual or otherwise, allow this woman to speak at their event?
For those that don't know, Donna Hylton (she changed her name from Hilton) was convicted of kidnapping, torturing, and murdering a man after luring him into a pre-prepared torture room. For up to 20 days Donna and her friends tortured this man before killing him, at one point shoving a 3-foot long metal pipe up his ass.
"Vigliarole believed the three girls were prostitutes who were going to have sex with him. Instead, they picked him up on March 8 in Elmhurst, Queens, at Maria's home, and drugged him to make him drowsy. Then they drove him to Selma's apartment in Harlem. The apartment had already been prepared for an extended torture session: The closet door had been cut, a pot put in it for use as a toilet, the windows boarded.
For the next 15 to 20 days (police aren't sure just when Vigliarole died), the man was starved, burned, beaten, and tortured. (Even 10 years later, Spurling could recall Rita's chilling response when they questioned her about shoving a three-foot metal bar up Vigliarole's rear: "He was a homo anyway." How did she know? "When I stuck the bar up his rectum he wiggled.")
Spurling himself interviewed Donna: "I couldn't believe this girl who was so intelligent and nice-looking could be so unemotional about what she was telling me she and her friends had done. They'd squeezed the victim's testicles with a pair of pliers, beat him, burned him. Actually, I thought the judge's sentence was lenient. Once a jailbird, always a jailbird.""
https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199507/crime-and-punishment
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jan 24, 2017 - 04:35pm PT
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+6,666 sycorax!
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Jan 24, 2017 - 08:41pm PT
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following up on what sycorax posted ^^^ about Madres del la Plaza del Mayo is the powerful Argentine film La Historia Oficial directed by Luis Puenzo that won the oscar for Best Foreign Language Film that year...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Here we see Henry Kissinger meeting with Jorge Videla, Argentine dictator who was largely responsible for the Dirty Wars and "Los Desaparecidos"
Newly-declassified documents reveal that former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger hampered efforts to stop mass killings of dissidents by Argentina’s 1976-83 military dictatorship.
Kissinger hailed the military rulers for the country’s "campaign against terrorism," which included the imprisonment, torture, and killings of tens of thousands of leftist activists and students.
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2016/08/10/479341/Kissinger-Argentina-military-dictator
For more on this topic, read Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine"
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 25, 2017 - 08:16am PT
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Bump for the ladies.
We need you now more than ever.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jan 25, 2017 - 08:21am PT
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There's another sonofabitch, Henry Kissinger.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 26, 2017 - 08:49pm PT
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He might be an SOB, but when Andropov held the levers of power in the USSR, Kissinger working with Dobrinyn probably saved us from incineration. The history surrounding Andropov's rise to power via his position as head of the KGB (sound familiar?) and Kissingers hard fought battles with the joint chiefs as to how far he could go in negotiations is worth reading. Soviet leadership mostly thought that nuclear war was not if, but when. Kissinger and Dobrinyn fed info to the Soviet military leaders which led them to support Brezshnev, a man who both men thought was reasonable enough to avoid war.
If you are interested in how this all ended up, google Rekjavik Briefing Papers, memos prepared by then Sec State George Shultz for Reagan in his disarmament meetings with Gorbachev.
Sorry, way ot. But Kissinger being an SOB is not so simple...
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