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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 27, 2016 - 06:04am PT
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Just ruminating on the loss of some young climbers in the Sierras. This is meant as no slight or attack on them. I've been at this game long enough to know I could have gotten the chop plenty of times, but is there anything to my perception that soloing is maybe a little TOO hot right now? With the proliferation of high quality videos showing our sport's best doing the rad unroped, with constant inputs from the Web showing all manner of conquests, is soloing getting too good a rep?
I remember last year I was getting some java at the Black Sheep coffee house in Bishop, and a young woman was effusing about going on her first solo! I guess some friends were going to do a mass unroped ascent of Cathedral Peak. I think of the young man who died on Matthes Crest last year, the two young women dead in the Sierras this year. To cop a line from Whymper, look well to each step, young climber and old. That loose hold doesn't care if you can on-sight 5.13. It really doesn't. No lives matter to that teetering block. Is that quick ridge traverse worth the happiness of a lifetime?
BAd
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Sep 27, 2016 - 06:40am PT
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Personal decision. I tried to solo a very moderate route once and found that "I just don't have it." But I'm still here and climbing 30+ years later.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 27, 2016 - 07:38am PT
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I think the collective perception of what is "normal" can and does shift. Perhaps because the grades being soloed by a few have been pushed really high, it feels more and more reasonable for the average decent climber to solo easy things. But, like you said, no lives matter to loose blocks. Strength and mountain sense are entirely decoupled, and of course even "mountain sense" matters not at all to the probability governing some crumbling rock.
I suspect the intense marketing of "lifestyle sports" affects how we (the 20-30 somethings) think about our own climbing. I'm sure someone will roll their eyes and say people are stupid for letting the social environment affect how they think--but that's sort of missing the point. Community perceptions permeate the atmosphere of any intense activity. We don't exist (and climbers never really have) in vacuums where decisions are made entirely independently of outside influence.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 27, 2016 - 07:41am PT
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The true soloist is a misanthrope.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sep 27, 2016 - 07:46am PT
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Right. We all solo, it's just a matter of degree.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 27, 2016 - 07:54am PT
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Of course we all somewhat inadvertently end up soloing 5th class terrain at some point--probably a lot of points, on approaches, descents, or just while playing around on hikes. Perhaps this adds further to a (misguided?) sense of security. We've been unroped on technical terrain without incident so many times, it's easy to start thinking that means that we're skilled and safe. Just because we all do something (originally for the sake of the speed on mountain routes) does not mean we should glorify it or imply that it's more casual than it is.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Sep 27, 2016 - 08:08am PT
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I had a partner who was super relieved when I got the rope out a couple times on the slabs approach to Half Dome. Likewise, another partner when I didn't unrope as early as many would on the West Ridge of Conness. Likewise when I refused to unrope a threesome near the top of, what is it, Black Magic in the Needles when it gets easy up high?
Yes, people are too casual about it.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Sep 27, 2016 - 08:42am PT
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For the climber doing the soloing, it should be casual.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Sep 27, 2016 - 09:05am PT
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I think the OP is right in many ways. There are way too many out there who aren't ready to be soloing who think it is a "rite of passage" or who get pressured to solo along with the "rad kids." I hold soloing in high regard for those who really really have their act together. Nonchalance is a slippery slope.
Our books portray and glorify this, our videos, the history of the Stonemasters, etc...Sketchy solos, bold solos....they are aprt of the history and DNA of our sport.
Its not anybody's fault other than the climber who gets in over his/her head for not doing some real soul searching before heading up there without a rope. True soloists are a rare breed. They possess the skill and the mind for it. Most of us don't. Doing it "sometimes" or when pressured by a group to come along and be rad is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. Freaks me out when I see it.
Watching an amateur solo is a frightening thing to watch.
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RyanD
climber
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Sep 27, 2016 - 09:22am PT
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How do we stop them?!?!?!
Edit-
a life lived soloing on the edge is a shallow life
Lol, k.
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Sep 27, 2016 - 10:12am PT
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I used to solo quite a bit when I was considerably younger, stronger, crazier but now, going on 65, don't do much beyond class 3 that way. I don't feel I can trust my body and my head as much as I used to.
One thing I noticed when I was doing more was that there was an element of showing off when other people were around. It was subtle and I came to think of it as a real danger...it would be easy to be sucked in too far over your head...esp soloing with someone else, which I did a few times with Vardanega and I didn't like that aspect of my head...I thought this is what gets you and maybe both of you killed.
So I relegated that aspect of my climbing to strict solitude, where I think it should be, so that I can really consider why I'm doing this climb this way and if the risk is worth it, and have a minimal element of competition in it. I think there's always that latter element in soloing, just because we're human. If you can keep it at a minimum, you're probably a lot better off.
I've heard people bragging about their solo accomplishment(s) and that makes me very uncomfortable, cause I think, wow, I'm going to read about your tragedy, man, and I don't want to. Bragging always betrays a lack of maturity and insight.
What did the person standing behind Caesar say in this ear? All Glory is Fleeting.
I usually tell Kristi where I will be, but not that I will be soloing, because she absolutely hates that. So at least they'll find the carcass. Maybe that's a consolation.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 27, 2016 - 10:19am PT
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Watching an amateur solo is a frightening thing to watch.
Watching a pro solo is a frightening thing to watch, when I think of doing it!
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Matt's
climber
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Sep 27, 2016 - 10:29am PT
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when I think back to the stuff I've solo'd, I think about how I would have climbed it with a rope-- you then realize you'd probably be placing gear every 40 feet--- how much of a safety margin is that actually adding (especially on low-angle, featured terrain)? My point is that, on a climb that you are comfortably able to solo, going from rope to no rope may not be a huge decrease in safety margin....
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Sep 27, 2016 - 10:34am PT
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Obviously we all make our own choices, but those choices are influenced by our friends and community whether we like it or not. If soloing truly has become too casual then we all bear some culpability.
wise words.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2016 - 10:49am PT
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Interesting points, all, and a valuable discussion, methinks.
I liked Branscomb's observation:
So I relegated that aspect of my climbing to strict solitude, where I think it should be, so that I can really consider why I'm doing this climb this way and if the risk is worth it, and have a minimal element of competition in it.
I think back over my solos. Once a friend convinced me to go unroped on some moderates at Lover's Leap. I was leading mid to hard 10 trad at the time, so I agreed. The hardest we did was The Groove, 5.8. It's got lots of good ledges on it with some interesting moves between. It was okay, but I didn't walk away from that experience thinking, DAMN! I gots to get me more of that! I've soloed some moderate to easy Sierra peaks, stuff like the N. Couloir on Mt. Sill, and I found those much more satisfying, routes where I was totally alone, assessing risks and making my choices without any outside input. I think that process is critical. I've backed off peaks that I found too dangerous or that just FELT wrong, heeding the small voice. My last attempted technical solo was years ago on a 5.7 at City of Rocks, forget which one. I got a few feet off the ground and found something had shifted. An honest assessment told me that whatever I would gain from such a climb wasn't worth the risk. Sharing a route with a rope and a partner, my wife on that trip, was much more soul satisfying than the momentary thrill of an unroped ascent.
This all amounts to some very difficult calculus, and we should not forget in our calculations the hearts of those we leave behind. In my youth, it was almost always just about me. Expected, typical, of course.
"Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end.” Ed Whymper aka A guy who knows what he's talking about....
BAd
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jstan
climber
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Sep 27, 2016 - 10:51am PT
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I suspect the intense marketing of "lifestyle sports" affects how we (the 20-30 somethings)
think about our own climbing.
This specific problem will be self correcting. Affected persons will gradually be winnowed out but in
addition the fad of climbing, like all fads, will ebb. It is what we do to ourselves that is more serious.
Deaths and injuries come as events. We incorrectly think that by having long experience, being good
or by being cautious risk can be made negligible. Events continue to occur no matter how experienced
or able one is. Luck, not you, decides when it will come and when it will not.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Sep 27, 2016 - 11:05am PT
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Anybody who solos for anybody but themselves is missing the point
Yeah, yeah, yeah epic take. If you solo to impress or for a camera you still are soloing for yourself and your ego.
So ekat, what is the point of soloing?
I for one love watching soloing and seeing pics.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Sep 27, 2016 - 11:19am PT
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More soloing deaths = fewer climbers getting in my way.
It's been going on a long time, longer than anyone here. I would say it's NOT scaling with the increase in participants. There will always be dumb asses. Nothing you can do about it but enjoy the show, IMO.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Sep 27, 2016 - 11:45am PT
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John Gill set a bad example....
I love soloing. TAKE!!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 27, 2016 - 01:07pm PT
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...it would be easy to be sucked in too far over your head...esp soloing with someone else, which I did a few times with Vardanega and I didn't like that aspect of my head...I thought this is what gets you and maybe both of you killed.
Interesting take... I've only "soloed" a handful of routes a few grades below my limit, but they were always in conjunction with another person present- Royal Arches, Tenaya Peak, most of Matthes Crest, N Ridge of Conness a few times, first pitch or two of NEB Higher Cathedral Rock. Having that other person there definitely affected my mental state in a way that made me feel more comfortable or casual about the situation. I wonder if I would have committed to doing those things if I was alone? Maybe not. Maybe I would have talked myself out of it. Hek, one of my first posts on supertopo in 2005 was talking about lucky survival on a botched attempt to solo Royal Arches when I couldn't find a partner. That led to me getting my first climbing partners here.
Apart from that, I guess on many occasions I have put myself high enough to be in harms way (if not dramatically multiple pitches off the deck) for the experience, for the feeling it gave me, almost as a compulsion or to scratch an itch in a way that I can't altogether say is healthy. I'm pretty certain I never soloed anything where I thought "this will make me look so cool." The thought of dying is stronger than that attraction for me (at least from my present vantage of being 40+ years old)- but at times some other compulsion has been stronger than the fear of death. Maybe just some inner sense of ability and knowledge that I would not fall in that situation and that the feeling of being in that place is what I needed at that moment. Just a way to concentrate my attention in a powerful way, to stop other head noises, to be really present in that place and time. That to me is a powerful drug. But I have since learned how to bottle the essence of that drug without needing to risk death. It is all in our minds. As are the many reasons which might attract us to soloing.
But we each have our own reasons, and whatever casualness with which we may approach soloing, any facades or veneers quickly fade when reality is upon us. Hopefully what we have underneath is strong enough to last. That is a question that some of us are dying to find out.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Sep 27, 2016 - 01:08pm PT
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Oh ok Kingtut, so you have nothing but respect for bold runouts, but soloing goes over the line and is selfish. Can't wait for your Kingtut's Version Climber's Bible to hit the stores.
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labrat
Trad climber
Erik O. Auburn, CA
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Sep 27, 2016 - 01:20pm PT
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"For the climber doing the soloing, it should be casual."
I totally agree on this point from Steve.
The soloist that came up to me at the final belay on West Crack on Sunday flatly stated to me that he had pushed it a bit and didn't feel like he could of down climbed the start of the first pitch and the wait at the first belay (right before the second pitch roof) go to him a bit..
He was stoked to have done the climb once he was on top... Wonder what impression he left on the parties that he passed lower on the route?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 27, 2016 - 01:29pm PT
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I rambled in my last post... here's a more focused answer to original poster's question.
We live in a time of information glut, for better in some cases and for worse in others. As a parent, I consider my job not to protect my children from being aware of all these signals- all these distractions, all these temptations- but rather to learn to live with them gracefully, to be discerning in how we use the information we receive and to make as wise decisions as we can. Nobody walks in our shoes but us, and we have to make decisions that honor that.
So as for lamenting about what our culture is, what messages are glorified, and so on.... I consider all that a lost cause and focus on what we are personally responsible for. The guiding theme for my teenage kids these days:
freedom AND responsibility
(or what's that old quote: "If you can't do the time don't do the crime." or there's the investor's metaphor: "don't gamble what you can't afford to lose")
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Sep 27, 2016 - 01:30pm PT
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So much more to this existence than climbing. The arts, sciences, helping others, love, children, dogs...a life lived soloing on the edge is a shallow life--white people invented problems because you have forgotten how precious life is...
No dude (and not trying to fight with you or put you down)...what I respect is an individual's right to choose their own destiny, and their expression of that in their climbing...its their routes and their lives... So which is it?
Since you seem to always go with the until you are experienced act with me, I have been climbing outdoors now for 23 months and probably 5 years in the gym before that, so I have experience bro dude.
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couchmaster
climber
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Sep 27, 2016 - 01:36pm PT
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Holy smokes, I bet Cathedral would be a kick ass group solo Bad Climber. I've only "group soloed" once, Tiptoe Ridge Arapiles. SO DAMN MUCH FUN. At first I was nervous as I'd never been on that route and the rock was still somewhat newish for me. I was following my buddy and above my other friend, which seemed kind of dumb to not rope up at first. I solo cause I can't find a partner and want a lot of mileage with no encumbrances. On a 1500 foot long solo, you'll relax somewhere in there and not worry about falling on your buddy or having the one above you pull a rock or land on you. Dear lord so much fun. How the hell do you not get addicted? The ST has a picture of a group solo of monkeys running up Arches at times and they must be flying.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Sep 27, 2016 - 02:22pm PT
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Is that quick ridge traverse worth the happiness of a lifetime?
Nope.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 27, 2016 - 02:29pm PT
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I had this whole post I typed up refuting your point and that these soloists are just scrambling, then near the end I realized that you are right and people assume scrambling means not soloing therefore safe.
So, yeah. you might be on to something...
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moacman
Trad climber
Montuckyian Via Canada Eh!
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Sep 27, 2016 - 02:31pm PT
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To each its own...............
Stevo
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estwing
Trad climber
montreal
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Sep 27, 2016 - 02:55pm PT
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A foot injury pushed me out of climbing a number of years ago, but some of my solos remain my most vivid climbing memories. I had a few sketchy moments on terrain that wouldn't have been much safer roped, those stand out. But the very best memories are the ones of moving unencumbered up multi-pitch terrain where the flow was cut by climbing roped in.
Perhaps leading ice also made soloing some rock seem logical. The mindset was already there. Same idea with a lot of easy trad climbing. The lack of good pro at crux moments means you were already effectivley soloing, so why not just remove th cord?
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Sep 27, 2016 - 03:04pm PT
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Is soloing becoming too "casual"?
Well, I think so, Bad, but I guess people are going to do what they're going to do. It makes me sad when they die so young, that's for sure.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 27, 2016 - 03:40pm PT
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If you have to ask should I, don't!
Edit: Definitely a pro!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Sep 27, 2016 - 04:02pm PT
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That clip of Largo reading"Blasphemy" is really good.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Sep 27, 2016 - 04:27pm PT
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Soloing is never "casual" unless you're one of those rare people who can cruise 5.12 without working for it.
Anyone who solos for the wrong reason is immediately hit in the face with this fact when they get themselves high off the deck. You can lie to yourself on the ground -- but when you're solo 1,000 feet off the deck, you can't lie, not even to yourself.
Soloing has a way of sorting itself out. If you solo for the right reasons, you enjoy it and keep doing it, albeit within your personally-defined limits.
If you're soloing for the wrong reasons, you realize this really quickly and you stop. Unless you're really, really stupid.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Sep 27, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
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ruppell
climber
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Sep 27, 2016 - 04:48pm PT
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I did it, do it, and will continue to do it.
Like some others have said I do it for myself, by myself. I have a complete and total understanding of the position I've put myself in. I accept the reality and the consequence of those actions. I've had a few closer then I wanted calls but I still solo.
I've examined my thinking a few times and always come back it. For me it's mental. I have always like scary runout sh#t shows. I climb them at my limit. I dial it back a grade or two for soloing.
What's always struck me as odd is that I'm OK doing runouts at my limit on a rope. Actually it hasn't always but a few years ago I was climbing American Wet Dyke with my wife. It's well within my OS limit. The topo shows three bolts in 80'. There's two. Anyway I'm way out on this shitty 1/4 incher and it's a lot harder then the grade would indicate. I'm solid and feel strong but I look down at my wife. She was white as a ghost. I finished the pitch and we talked about it afterward. She was more scared for me then I was for myself.
What I'm getting at here with that cute little story is sometimes a rope and R/X rated climbs can offer an illusion of safety that I don't have when I'm ropeless. Whle soloing I know a mistake is a dirt nap. I would hope that everyone else realizes that as well.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Sep 27, 2016 - 05:05pm PT
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Haha kingtut, I was messing with you a little. In reality I have been climbing for over 180 months all outside. Still no where near the experience you and many others have and I appreciate your perspective, cause the people who taught me have the same in regards to style and ethics. Don't think it's the only way, but agree with a lot of it.
In no way am I promoting soloing or condemning it. I am glad I have experienced the feeling of total focus and in the moment captivation that soloing requires. Have not done it in years and would agree that there are more things to life than climbing.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2016 - 05:20pm PT
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Honnold, Croft, et al. I find to be aliens from another planet, weird Zen masters from mythology. What they do is so far beyond me that I just shake my unworthy head and mutter: Wow. How many people can even lead with a rope a climb like The Phoenix? It always looked like a great A1 pitch to me!
BAd
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Sep 27, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
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It IS a great A-1 pitch, especially in the dark, with a bag of shrooms as your only illumination.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 27, 2016 - 05:52pm PT
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I've done a lot of soloing, but I stopped altogether when my daughter was born. The logic behind this may have some flaws, but that's the direction I took.
I've also turned back from some solo efforts. My most notable retreat was from a winter solo of Easy Overhang in the Gunks. It is 5.0 or 5.1 or 5.2 depending on who you consult.
It was a nice crisp winter day, with a foot or so of snow on the ground and on all the ledges.
Manfully shod in mountain boots, and heroically stripped of the engines of protection, I advanced in solo glory upon the grim precipice. I raised a foot from its snowy resting place on the ground, placed it just so on a small edge, and with my customary catlike grace, flowed smoothly up and...
...propreoceptive data from Mission Control interrupted my feline reveries with a status report indicating that, inexplicably, I was lying on my back in the snow. I don't think I ever really had more than one foot off the ground.
It was a nice crisp winter day, with a foot or so of snow on the ground and on all the ledges.
I took a hike.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Sep 27, 2016 - 07:09pm PT
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I quit soloing when I became a father. Never was into it big time but I had a few absolutely great days.
It seems like we are bombarded with solo films these days. It will be awful if someone dies while being filmed but it probably will happen.
'casual' feeling is just when you might blow it
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 27, 2016 - 07:53pm PT
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I stopped when my daughter was born as well. Before that I had done a fair, including some longer routes onsight, though some of those outings were really more than what I had anticipated from the experience. Now, I've got no head for it, though that may be due to how infrequently I get out. As I age and get more jaded that perspective may fad. Whymper's lines ring very true though.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sep 27, 2016 - 08:10pm PT
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Blame it on Werner.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Sep 27, 2016 - 08:26pm PT
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So I relegated that aspect of my climbing to strict solitude, where I think it should be, so that I can really consider why I'm doing this climb this way and if the risk is worth it, and have a minimal element of competition in it. I never told anyone where I was going or what I was doing when I went soloing. Not just free-soloing, but also when I went roped solo on a big wall. Many times I hiked into the back country to free solo a peak. No one ever knew where I was going, and no one ever saw me while I was there. I free-soloed up to 5.7 but nothing harder. That's the line that I drew in the sand.
I stopped free-soloing when I broke my own rule of "Never climb anything that you can't down climb." I was free-soloing a 14er peak in Colorado, got to a steep 5.7 face that looked tricky, but I was so close to the summit and the rest looked easy. So I went up, only to get stopped higher up by an icy corner and icy slabs.
I tried down-climbing but it was impossible to reverse the moves. There was no where to rest, and soon I realized that I was dead either way.
I was going to get tired and fall to my death if I just stood there.
I was going to fall to my death if I tried to down-climb the 5.7 face.
I figured that I'd die trying, so I descended before I got too tired. I made it and quit free-soloing at age 34. I fell at the bottom and broke my ankle, and crawled out to the trailhead on my knees, and that was the icing on the cake on that day.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 27, 2016 - 08:27pm PT
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'casual' feeling is just when you might blow it
Tell me about it. I was doing some soloing in the 90's. On one occasion I was up on a climb I had done many times including solo. I stopped at the third belay. The sun was low and I just hung out taking in the wild beauty of it all, you know. So I was totally casual as I turned around and started up the kind of funky moves off the belay. About ten feet up, just as I set the first good finger lock my feet sketched. I never felt it coming. A half second sooner and I would have sailed out of there and fallen 1000 feet. I got it together by yelling obscenities at myself.
I soloed some more after that but the thrill was gone. There are a very few of us climbers who really have it dialed in mentally and physically to free solo a lot. I'm sure they have close calls too. But they are different all the same. My sketch told me that I was doing the wrong thing in the wrong place at the wrong time and got lucky.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 27, 2016 - 09:44pm PT
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Hmmm. Soloing has mostly been a personal and private affair, but there were always soloists who were in it in part for the acknowledgment of others. What's changed of late is an outsized,hero-worshiping demographic, gopros, youtube, facebook and the widespread incorporation of climbing into all forms of media and advertising.
It's always been a private affair for me personally and the fact over half of my leading has been roped soloing for decades adds another dimension to it for me. Every now and then I just leave the rope in the bag for a pitch when I'm at the point of pretty much forgetting I'm using it anyway.
And I think soloing is pretty much about just that with a number of attending thresholds around desensitization, comfort, confidence, grace, speed, rhythm, groove and purity. Once you start crossing those thresholds with any regularity it's kind of a different world and one that isn't easily ignored.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Sep 28, 2016 - 07:52am PT
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Sierra L. Rat wrote:
"I figured that I'd die trying, so I descended before I got too tired. I made it and quit free-soloing at age 34. I fell at the bottom and broke my ankle, and crawled out to the trailhead on my knees, and that was the icing on the cake on that day."
Wish you would elaborate on this account. What did you fall on? Crawled out? How far? What caused you to cross your own threshold? Sounds like complacency and over confidence: Was that due to over familiarization with soloing so you just assumed you would pull it off again?
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Tom Turrentine
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Sep 28, 2016 - 08:03am PT
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From an old and not so bold climber; still climbing but never took the big risks. I admire boldness, but also know that the risks we take, and the deaths and injuries that happen in climbing are probably never justified by any of the rationalizations we all make- how it makes us feel when we climb, personal freedom, pride from success, and of course ego. Our community has wrapped us in a culture that avoids these rational calculations.
I'm haunted this summer by the deaths and injuries of several climbers. Their accidents shatter our suite of rationalizations, leaving family, friends, colleagues and rescuers to grieve and recover.
Like R.Gold, it is often a first child, a new relationship which draws us back from the void, contemplation of the impact of our death or maiming on those who we love. I remember that moment of realization, brought by my daughter's birth. Never did any real soloing, but like all of us ran it out some, so began setting more pro (I called each extra piece Sasha pro after my daughter)
The irony for me is that what I love in climbing is the turning off of my mind; but the reality of community and family demands more mindfulness. Probably would be good practice before each climb to contemplate the impact of our death or injury on others we love, then rack up and get it done right.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Sep 28, 2016 - 11:42am PT
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Nice discussion. Similar to comments I heard sixty years ago.
Bob Kamps used to say that the rewards were not worth the risks. Lynn Hill also said something to that effect.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 28, 2016 - 11:45am PT
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Rope is dope!
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Sep 28, 2016 - 11:50am PT
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When we had our daughter is when I quit soloing. I was standing there when she was born and that had a big impact on me. Mainly, it was that there is another person that really depends on me being there, all the time. It was time to quit being selfish. Yeah, children, amazing how those little beings will change you, and I don't regret any of it.
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Gorgeous George
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Sep 28, 2016 - 12:02pm PT
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Back to that comment about old, bold climbers.
I don't think I can argue the point about being an old climber.
But, although I still occasionally style up a 5.9 or 5.10, plugging in protection every five feet or clipping on bolts equally spaced, I've learned that many a 5.7 requires some bold climbing when the pro is spaced 30 feet apart.
BUT, that being said, always on a rope. I prefer life over status.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Sep 28, 2016 - 12:08pm PT
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Reilly had it at misanthrope .
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 28, 2016 - 01:35pm PT
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IMHO, anybody who decides for anybody else what the wrong reason for them to solo is is missing the point.
As a corollary, we have a (socially derived and socially advantageous) human tendency to miss the point when it comes to us deciding what's the right thing for other people to believe. Those other people are using the same socially derived and socially advantageous way of forming their own (different) beliefs and behaviors.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Sep 28, 2016 - 01:46pm PT
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 28, 2016 - 03:32pm PT
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lot of people in this thread saying they solo for themselves then telling stories about themselves soloing.
humans are bad at knowing why they do things too. I understand your point. However, soloing something (particularly if it was a long time ago) for reasons that meant something to you at the time doesn't wipe your memory of the event, nor does talking about it later alter the reasons why you did it in the first place. It's still personal.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Sep 28, 2016 - 03:44pm PT
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Just remember that 3 of the greatest soloists in history are gone
Tomaz Humar
John Bachar
Gut Lacelle
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 28, 2016 - 04:10pm PT
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Paul Preuss
Georg Winkler
Derek Hersey
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Sep 28, 2016 - 05:19pm PT
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Was never much into free soloing, but did a few.
It is both fascinating and frightful to watch some one doing it.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 28, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
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^^^^
Michael Reardon
Edit eKat: R.I.P. - soloing (by a wave) just remembering!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Sep 28, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
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Recent deaths in the Sierra should be considered as scrambling accidents, not soloing accidents. Both Julia and Maria were with partners and used a rope on 5th class terrain. Their accidents happened when they were scrambling on easier terrain for which they were unroped.
With the number of people going climbing in the mountains, the number of people soloing 4th-mid 5th terrain will also increase and the number of people needing rescues and fatal accidents will increase as well. Hero-worshipping for all the soloing stone masters BITD and people in the media in the present for sure helps the act of soloing to appear more appealing to the general public.
Every individual must use their own judgement while climbing, driving a car and doing anything else that is risky. Is soloing becoming casual? Not sure you can call it that. Personally, while soloing I try to focus on every move and not lose guard. Use three points of contact at all times and test flakes/holds that do not look 100% solid. That does not guarantee that I won't have an accident next time I scramble on class 3 or drive a car. We all make decisions and take responsibility for the consequences. Trying to minimize risks is a good idea for prolonging life. Especially knowing how sad my family would be if they got the sad news...complicated subject, but IMO soloing is not very casual, as anyone doing it understands the consequences of a f-up.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Sep 28, 2016 - 06:28pm PT
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Josh. I'm still here too lol.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 28, 2016 - 08:07pm PT
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It is both fascinating and frightful to watch some one doing it.
I would watch Bachar doing his circuit in Josh bitd. Remembering that in the context of what has been said on this thread is interesting. He was performing, but there was no sense that this tainted what he was doing or made it less intensely personal for him. He radiated confidence and a deliberate style of movement. This is a fundamental of the art of dance, which is both a performance and yet very personal.
Watching, there was no worry or suspense. He simply was not going to fall.
Sorry for the hero worship, but that's not really my point.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 28, 2016 - 08:26pm PT
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lot of people in this thread saying they solo for themselves then telling stories about themselves soloing.
I didn't post up to 'tell stories' about what I've done soloing - I posted up what I think about soloing; it's a pretty big distinction. Also pretty hard to talk about soloing without relating one's frame-of-reference or if you haven't done much of it. So, yeah, when I solo it's not about anyone else or really even about me - kind of just the opposite, it's about being out of all such head spaces. But that's just me, YMMV. And like my FA's, I by and large really don't care what anyone else thinks about it.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Sep 28, 2016 - 09:01pm PT
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I remember when hi ball bouldering became free soloing. I watched Vic Copeland solo Short Subject at Donner, The Line and Surrealistic Pillar Direct at the Leap. Made me wonder if we were wizzards or just foolish. Soloed Bear Creek Spire with a crew of four. Survived on crunchberries. We used to "swing leads" on easy solos -taking turns on short sections from ledge to ledge. Amazing thrills. Soloing is a great way to do thirty pitches in a day. But I think its probably the best experience when practiced alone. After two previous solos on Harvey Walbangers Right, one onsight, I gave it a third run. But I was not in the same gunners mindset that day. When I got to the offwidth I felt pretty queazy. I know Ive posted some mean things about others who free solo. I think I am a hypocrite advocating ropes when I dont always walk my talk. Some days you just know you are going to send. Other days can be dicey. Ive soloed a variation of knapsack to the right of the route after the crux at least thirty times. Put it up onsight. I call it "Look Mom, No Hands," 5.6. But sometimes I get out on it and wish I hadnt half way up. Sometimes I feel saintly and indestructible, and solos go great. Other times I feel like Ive been such an acurssed ashhole that fate is going to rip me off the wall to my crater. I probably deserve to die for all the bad things Ive said and done in life. I often wonder why it hasnt already happened. In Blazing Saddles, Sherrif Barte (Clevon Little) tells The Waco Kid (Gene Wilder) "A man drinks like that and doesnt eat, he is going to die!" And Wilder inquires matter of factly in a desperate tone "When?"
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 28, 2016 - 10:36pm PT
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People say you should hide and solo only for yourself.
Stoopid .... go hide and climb then.
But life is a performance itself, to be displayed and not hidden in some dark corner.
So do it right and .... perform your best .....
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Sep 28, 2016 - 11:35pm PT
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Wbraun has a point. Life is a stage and there are usually no dress rehearsals.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Sep 28, 2016 - 11:39pm PT
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I hate the topic & know that cordless is STUPID, but I'm one to still
Be stupid it is an incredibly irresponsible & selfish self destructive pursuit
I tell myself that I want to keep it so if I ever get to go ,
If I could go (here I'd) be ready, to go a long way on my own.
cordless. The use of the new thin long cords must make short work with less stress of the uncounted 5th class.
but I have to make Doo I much prefer
Big holds at the top
or a mix of crack and hols all the way from the bottom to the topcorners are great outside, Inside On the face No holds barred use the matrix and combined it all and make it ancient Diabase
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 29, 2016 - 07:42am PT
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" a hand came out of heaven, pinned a badge on his chest,
Voice Said,
" get out there man and do your best!""
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sep 29, 2016 - 07:48am PT
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After reading what V had to say I was overcome with a fear of choking on an olive. Similar to his point about three points of contact, I will have to enlist better chewing techniques if I am to continue to pursue eating olives while minimizing the risks.
Whatever else you do out there, don't choke!
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 29, 2016 - 09:02am PT
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IMHO, everything we believe and do is for ourselves - that's just how we work. Ok, we're social animals, so throw in some group fitness reasons, as long as we're a member of the group. I think the science of it is called conspiracy theory.
Maybe we solo for ourselves so we can have a sense of mastery and self-reliance. Maybe we solo for ourselves to gain social admiration and increase our social status. Maybe we don't solo because it scares us. Maybe we don't solo because we want our own or others approval for being a good parent who puts their kids welfare ahead of our own fun. Maybe we don't want our friends and loved ones to solo because we don't want to suffer the pain of losing them.
Lots of reasons to believe stuff. The idea that one self-interested reason (my reason) to do something is better than another self-interested reason to do it (your reason) is, IMHO, just another self-interested reason we come up with in order to approve of ourselves and our reasons, and reinforce the rightness of our beliefs, the strength of our convictions, the strength of the connection between our beliefs and our behaviors. Me, I'm always right!
OK - you've got your reasons to either solo or not solo, I've got mine. I just don't think they're really all that different. When push comes to shove, I think that the reason someone believes that "Jesus filled my gas tank" is a good enough reason for some human to believe it, whether the belief is true or not.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 29, 2016 - 09:42am PT
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Recent deaths in the Sierra should be considered as scrambling accidents, not soloing accidents. Both Julia and Maria were with partners and used a rope on 5th class terrain. Their accidents happened when they were scrambling on easier terrain for which they were unroped. I would not have guessed that that was the case. You presume that people who are strong roped climbers wouldn't fall on easy stuff. Look at Al Kwok who recently fell off what appeared to be some 3rd class stuff on Deerhorn. If you go in the mountains though, sketchy stuff like that is hard to avoid. Loose rock, gravel, finding a more direct route that's suddenly not class 3.
Reading about their deaths was kind of sobering when I learned that at least one of the women had started climbing on a local gym team, which my 12 yr. daughter started doing a few years ago (and who is now starting to climb with me outside). So naturally I worry about her safety, both when she's with me but also as she gets older and starts going by herself. Maybe it's not a bad thing she mostly likes to boulder.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Sep 29, 2016 - 09:57am PT
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I don't presume anything. I said they both brought a rope to their climbs and perished while scrambling unroped. Being a strong climber does not mean being good at navigating class 3 or 4. And sh#t can happen to anyone. If you are a skier, mountain biker, kayaker, swimmer or a climber, playing with the nature can kill you. Or it could give you great happiness and balance in your life. Whatever you do, do the recreational activity of choice for own joy, because the people you may want to impress don't really give a f*#k if you send or die, most of the time. It is your close ones who will be crushed by the event. Anyway, just a lot of yapping. Solo, don't solo, claim that you are soloing for some higher power, do whatever the hell that you want, choose for yourself.
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16 ounces
climber
homer, alaska
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Sep 29, 2016 - 10:00am PT
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rope soloing is a sorting
of mind and refuses
the tepid understanding of
observers.
why do i solo?
because i need something
to think about while vacuuming.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 29, 2016 - 10:18am PT
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The idea that one self-interested reason (my reason) to do something is better than another self-interested reason to do it (your reason) is, IMHO, just another self-interested reason we come up with in order to approve of ourselves and our reasons, and reinforce the rightness of our beliefs, the strength of our convictions, the strength of the connection between our beliefs and our behaviors.
We're all going to come to different conclusions if we're starting from different assumptions. Our assumptions about what is "good" and "right" come from myriad sources--family & upbringing, ideas from community and friends, self-reflection, books, Supertopo (lol)--and everyone's got a different mishmash of experiences that make them think a bit differently about what it means to live a good life.
The assumptions that seem most difficult to reconcile are the ideas that (A) pursuing a goal with single-minded dedication is admirable and good or (B) working to bolster the emotional and physical well-being of your loved ones is admirable and good. Maybe I'm making wild assumptions about everyone else's reasons for living, but I'd venture a guess that having a passion--climbing, career, art, whatever--can make it hard to balance (A) and (B). Hence all the reasons and rationalizations. :)
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 29, 2016 - 10:34am PT
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The only time I know I've broken a bone, I stumbled a bit while running barefoot on carpet and got a hairline crack on my big toe. Stupid stuff happens. It happens less when we are focused and concentrating. Good climbers on easy terrain or approaches is a dangerous combination. Too much mileage on easy terrain can lead to complacency. There is a certain mental endurance required to be seriously focused at all moments for an extended period of time. Perhaps being totally alone makes that easier than when traveling with a companion. No distractions from #1 goal: stay alive.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 29, 2016 - 10:42am PT
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Regardless there seems little material difference between soloing and scrambling -- which I think is kind of the point that the OP was trying to make. We just say scrambling when the terrain is easier. That was the point I was trying to make as well, though poorly I suppose. I don't see the rating as making a distinction between whether one is soloing or not soloing. Others apparently believe it does however.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sep 29, 2016 - 10:50am PT
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why do i solo?
because i need something
to think about while vacuuming.
I've missed reading your posts.
Chris
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16 ounces
climber
homer, alaska
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Sep 29, 2016 - 11:06am PT
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it's like a fence post
questioning the wind's journey:
"why the fvck do you gotta travel
all ways at once? it's just reckless.
when you could just stand there
and meet the world's challenges
with a linear commitment and highly
predictable outcome?"
to which the wind replies,
"we all shouldn't have been, but we are.
so let's go soloing."
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Tom Turrentine
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Sep 29, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
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First of all, thank you Vitaly for useful information to deal with this summer's losses..Although maybe we don't have to accept these scrambling accidents in a probabilistic sense -always room for learning and care.
But I disagree that life is a performance on a stage (whether a performance for oneself or others) I can't or won't reduce life to a performance metaphor. Life has too many real life and death things going on to imagine it is a performance . I suppose if like Werner I was convinced there was an afterlife or next life I could think of this life as a performance for myself and others or even some sort of god, but I don't. Each thing, a child, a wife, a brother, a friend, and of course the mountains seems real and fragile. I'm not sure I could do Werner's job; I think it might drag me down.
A young climber visited me, who had recently fathered a child- he had accepted a position to go on an expedition, and wanted me to validate his choice on basis that he would be a hero to his new son. Which told me he had not developed understanding of being a parent; he thought his son wanted a heroic father. He was of course projecting. Children want food, love, etc..
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16 ounces
climber
homer, alaska
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Sep 29, 2016 - 12:14pm PT
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to rope solo and to live
is to travel beauty's
drunken path.
it is so very excellent
to barely be.
because usually,
tomorrow is shoved down your
throat.
careful, though,
because forever
is ovulating,
and she is ripe to
receive your
shotgun death.
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pswitz
climber
honolulu
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Sep 29, 2016 - 12:27pm PT
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In the mountains it is safer to spend less time subjected to objective dangers of rockfall and weather. So for each person/objective there is a different point at which roped travel is actually more dangerous because it is slower. For some people/objectives, this intersection might be class 2 hiking trails with occasional class 3. For other people with more ambitious objectives it may be safer to go unroped on class 4. etc, etc.
Reading through the ANAM you see plenty of deaths from people getting caught out. But the bias is such so you won't see the analysis read "The pair could have avoided the storm by traveling unroped on terrain that was well within their ability to do so"
We hear about people getting saved by the rope when they fall, or dying if they fall unroped, because that is a dramatic event. We generally don't hear about the guy who DIDN'T get killed by lightning because he was off the mountain before noon. Thus the bias.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Sep 29, 2016 - 12:43pm PT
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Regardless there seems little material difference between soloing and scrambling -- which I think is kind of the point that the OP was trying to make. We just say scrambling when the terrain is easier.
That was the point I was trying to make as well, though poorly I suppose. I don't see the rating as making a distinction between whether one is soloing or not soloing. Others apparently believe it does however.
Let me see if I can help clear this up although Vitilay's posts seemed perfectly clear to me and I imagine to most people who have even a passing familiarity with both mountaineering and crag-style climbing.
There is a lot of 4th and easy 5th class terrain that is most commonly climbed unroped because it's not really feasible to use a rope as it would be too slow and may cause other problems (knocking rocks off). Often people may bring a rope to use for certain sections of this type of climbing, depending on terrain, skill level, and risk appetite. Examples of this type of climbing that I'm personally familiar with are things like Little Bear - Blanca traverse and some of the other popular Colorado 14er traverses. It's of course theoretically possible to rope up for the entirety of such a climb, but most people who would be inclined to do that decide they have better things to with their time.
These types of climbs have been climbed mostly unroped (in whole or in part) for as long as people have been doing this activity, often by people who never solo "real" rock climbs.
It's a dangerous activity, depending on the route, climber, and conditions. My view is that it's probably more dangerous than some of the participants perceive, but who knows.
Unroped mountaineering-style climbing (call it scrambling or what you will) hasn't the slightest thing to do with the exploits of the Honnonlds of the world and their predecessors.
Climbing is done on a spectrum and there's a gray area between mountaineering-style scrambling and what most people would consider to be soling in the sense of climbing rock routes that are almost always climbed with a rope. (Here's a rule of thumb--if you're climbing for a long stretch of near vertical rock--you're soloing, not scrambling.) An example of the gray area may be routes of the Flatirons outside of Boulder, CO, which are commonly climbed both roped and unroped, and other easy slab climbs.
But the OP in this thread was making a comment about high level climbers doing "rad" solos--that's an activity that has very little to do with mountaineering style scrambling.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Sep 29, 2016 - 01:00pm PT
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In all your words though you really didn't explain how going unroped on a 5.easy ridge is any different from soloing technical rock besides the fact that the 5.easy ridge is easier and less committing and people solo them often. Sure it _feels_ different, but fact is you fall off either and you will die. Doesn't matter if that's the only viable style to do the route in or not.
Fair enough.
Here's the TL;DR version:
Mountaineering style scrambling, while dangerous, is not closely related to the feats of Honnold.
If you don't get that, what can I say, I tried :)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 29, 2016 - 01:08pm PT
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Mountaineering style scrambling, while dangerous, is not closely related to the feats of Honnold.
True, but it kills way more folks every year.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 29, 2016 - 01:14pm PT
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blahblah,
You're right. They're not comparable. I don't think anyone would rightfully argue that point. However, five thirty is right as well. Just because people have almost always soloed 3rd to 4th class stuff does not mean that it is not soloing just because most consider it "scrambling" or some other equivalent where a rope is impractical or not needed most of the time. Regardless, the community has recently lost several fine people. Maybe rather than arguing over minutae, we can just reminds ourselves to be careful out there.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Sep 29, 2016 - 01:22pm PT
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Mountaineering style scrambling, while dangerous, is not closely related to the feats of Honnold
Over a half century ago there were fewer climbers and fewer solo climbers and a modest solo might bring admiration from your peers. Today such feats are commonplace and it takes a very dangerous effort to elicit those kinds of rewards.
Of course, we all solo for personal satisfaction and eschew any public recognition.
;>)
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Sep 29, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
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If the only criteria of risk is, ” you fall off and you will die” then I have been on lots of class 2-3 terrain where a fall would mean death. There are sections of hiking trails where this is true, Zion’s Angel landing trail comes to mind. Life is a solo, some just fly closer to the sun.
Most scared I have ever been was while roped on a snow ridge, might as well have seen solo.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Sep 29, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
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the feats of Honnold
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Sep 30, 2016 - 07:04am PT
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Mountaineering can also involve unroped climbing up to 5.4 on chossy ground with boots, pack etc.
Climbing a big technical N Face in the Cdn Rockies means if you put the rope on easier ground than 5.5 or 5.6 you won't have enough time to deal with harder stuff up higher and will have to bivy.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 30, 2016 - 08:07am PT
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Soloing is just a natural expression of the artistry of our noble art of rock climbing, like chopping bolts to protect the dignity of our first ascents. Why do we need to believe that soloing and posting about it, or chopping bolts in defense of the dignity of our first ascents and posting about it, is anything other than an expression of our artistry, an artistry of risk which we intentionally promote and admire?
When you're artists like us painting our masterpieces, sometimes you're gonna spill a little paint.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Sep 30, 2016 - 08:15am PT
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it all went to sh#t with that guy with the boombox and tube sox on Reed's Direct, I say.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Sep 30, 2016 - 04:25pm PT
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Smokin' Duck Sauce.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 30, 2016 - 04:40pm PT
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Treating soloing too casually.....go right ahead, i'm all for freedom of expression. I suspect that some of the old farts here will want to rain on your parade by telling you it's risky.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 30, 2016 - 04:49pm PT
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Freedumb!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sep 30, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
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What, me worry?
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 07:35pm PT
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I liked what Nutagain said:
There is a certain mental endurance required to be seriously focused at all moments for an extended period of time.
This is SO true. Many times in the mountains, usually on the descent, I've done the "Keep focused!" mantra. We need to do this even on the most moderate of terrain where a fall would be disastrous.
My OP was not about rad solos per se. I'm wondering about cultural shifts and perceptions. As I've said, I have soloed in the past and might do so again, but I think it's worth pondering what Nutagain said: Screw your head down TIGHT, even on the easy stuff. Never any guarantees, but you gotta stack the deck in your favor.
BAd
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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too casual may be too commonly descriptive of our attitude when in the presence of less than obvious rolling
and crushing hazards. anticipation and analysis can consume so much attention it becomes dissuasive
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Oct 12, 2016 - 02:53pm PT
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It was always an easy choice for me: solo held zero attraction, in fact, scared me to death to think about it. As soon as I put a rope and rack on I felt safe and comfortable, even though sometimes I found myself in quite unsafe situations with log run outs or poor pro.
Looking back, I think some self delusion was at play, or questionable faith all would be well. Somehow, even a crashing fall into the freezing north sea on a FA where the pro popped didn't wake me up. After all, I was roped!
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Oct 12, 2016 - 08:17pm PT
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Higgins Bump!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 13, 2016 - 09:30am PT
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There is a certain mental endurance required to be seriously focused at all moments for an extended period of time.
Hmmm. I guess I don't experience it that way at all. In fact, I find it just the opposite; more a freedom from any kind of mental effort and exertion. I fall into a rhythm and pacing and everything else is more or less on autopilot and flow. And to be honest that's pretty much the same for me whether roped or unroped.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Oct 16, 2016 - 09:12am PT
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https://vimeo.com/123870988
Sorry if this is already posted. I thought that this may belong on the fall colors thread. Trees lost their leaves, berries are big this year.
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radair
Social climber
North Conway, NH
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Oct 18, 2016 - 11:19am PT
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If you do it when no one is around, is it still showing off?
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bungs
Trad climber
CA
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Oct 18, 2016 - 12:34pm PT
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To cop a line from Whymper, look well to each step, young climber and old. That loose hold doesn't care if you can on-sight 5.13. It really doesn't. No lives matter to that teetering block.
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent
-Kubrik
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 18, 2016 - 01:52pm PT
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PapaDrew
Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
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Oct 18, 2016 - 01:59pm PT
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As I was growing up in the 1960's, the late Bob Kamps was one of my rock climbing mentors.
Once while dining at a favorite Chinese restaurant, Bob opened a cookie containing this apt "fortune":
"Who bravely dares must sometimes risk a fall."
Intrigued with his luck of being the one to receive it, Bob taped the slip of paper to his office desk for inspiration.
Visiting his office years later, when I first saw it I too was intrigued by how it came to be taped there, maybe the best climbing-inspired fortune cookie message ever.
Upon reflection on the content of the message, moreover, I realized it not only alludes to the sport of climbing but also teaches how Bob used safety gear for his legendary success at pioneering difficult new free ascents.
As John Gill noted above, Bob's claim to fame was not from free soloing. And nor can his fortune's literal message be understood to describe free soloing. Contrary to the fortune's advice, free soloists must not risk a fall; instead, each of their lives depends on incessant infallibility all the way up each of their solo ascents, as was the only way to climb in the earliest days of our sport.
Thus the literal meaning of "Who bravely dares must sometimes risk a fall" is practical only regarding the second, now naturally far more prevalent, way to free climb: the way which uses ropes and other modern safety equipment so that failure might be survived, and so trial and error could yield progress. Such progress for each individual climber ultimately results in increasingly difficult free routes, advancing the sport as a whole beyond what routes might be soloed currently with perfection.
That's why some free climbers say that when you are belayed and stoked to test the limits of your ability "you're not trying if you're not flying."
Royal Robbins wrote a memoir of his roped climbing exploits entitled "Fail Falling."
That was also Bob Kamps' way, by which he became one of the top free climbers of his generation.
In most senses of the word free, that way has predictably proved to be the freest of the two ways to free climb.
By invoking this second way, the advice by the author of Bob's fortune is all the more profound as an insight into achievements far beyond our sport. Since its author could not have anticipated it would be received by an actual climber, this advice must not have been intended to be taken so literally, to be specifically about climbing. Instead, it figuratively promotes the sage worldview that to succeed in whatever areas of life challenge us we all must bravely risk failure (analogous to falling while on belay). . . seeking progress without increasing unnecessarily the risk the failure will become an irremediable disaster.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 18, 2016 - 02:07pm PT
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test the limits of your ability "you're not trying if you're not flying."
This is such bullsh!t.
The whole point is NOT to fall and if you're falling you missed the flash and the real test of your limits.
If you're falling a lot then you're just doing puffed up virtual aid climbing masquerading as free.
Because everytime you fall and hang you're previewing .......
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Oct 18, 2016 - 06:25pm PT
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Reading this post has been interesting. I make no claims of being a good climber, quite the contrary in fact. But the same things apply to other situations. I was descending a steep exercise hike Thursday, trying to go down fast as I wanted to beat a time when, wham, the world was spinning around, sh#t was flying, and I was on my back. It was sudden, not a single hint of slipping so one could fall on one's ass ungraciously, but rather a violent twisting and thrashing. I tumbled on a steep bit. My butt hurt, but that seemed all. Friday night the pain started, as I had landed on sharp rocks with my right side and bruised ribs and did something to my right shoulder. Didn't sleep that night, as each movement just rubbed damaged stuff together. It was better the next night and I decided not to go to the doctor. Then yesterday my left knee started locking up and it became almost impossible to go down stairs. I severed my left quad tendon three years ago and struggled to get back, and here, from this stupid little slip I never even felt, the leg was useless. Again. Needless to say, the swelling is going down and it will be okay.
My point is that things happen despite best planning and to trust that every single move one makes will be the right one and work is delusional. Do what you want, but don't try and justify it, don't try to rationalize it. Sh#t happens and always will and it will catch you out. Just don't have kids.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 18, 2016 - 06:27pm PT
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or....just don't drink wine. ;)
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Oct 18, 2016 - 08:12pm PT
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Wine was not involved. I know you were joking, but I'm simply pointing out how unexpected sh#t happens, even in easy situations. There have been a lot of people killed on class 3 stuff.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Oct 18, 2016 - 09:01pm PT
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Is soloing becoming too "casual"?
In the US? Not even . . . I do not perceive a radical soloing movement and perhaps there are actually fewer soloists than in the past.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Oct 18, 2016 - 09:03pm PT
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There have been a lot of people killed on class 3 stuff
1922 - Pat Kelly, the finest female British rock climber of her generation, died at Tryfan while descending easy slopes.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2016 - 10:17am PT
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Bear, yer killin' me with those cat-eating-popcorn posts!
BAd
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 19, 2016 - 10:35am PT
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Soloists wear flesh colored helmets?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Oct 19, 2016 - 04:05pm PT
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Soloists wear flesh colored helmets?
I was almost killed free-soloing on the Apron when some rocks came bouncing down just to the right of where I was down-climbing. At the last second one grapefruit-sized rock took a wild bounce and clocked me in the temple. No helmet, of course. Blood everywhere, had trouble seeing there was so much blood. Thankfully I wasn't knocked out, it was a long way down to the ground.
Wear your damn helmet.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 19, 2016 - 07:38pm PT
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Soloing can be deadly!
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Oct 21, 2016 - 04:02am PT
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Wow. Growing up in Soviet communism make Russian tough for head-first-free-solo downclimbing!
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Oct 21, 2016 - 04:59am PT
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That Stolby stuff is both inspiring and terrifying
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2016 - 08:41am PT
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@i-b-Gob:
Dunno, with that kind of soloing, I'd be hard pressed to leave the ground.
BAd
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Oct 21, 2016 - 08:47am PT
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Way to casual
I never see Ties & tails anymore.
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pec
climber
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Oct 22, 2016 - 09:16am PT
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Just to give a different perspective.
I'm a British climber but was in the US this summer and was really struck by how many people were soloing stuff, far more than I've ever seen on previous trips to the states. Almost everyday I climbed there was someone soloing like its become normalised. In the UK its very rare to ever see anyone soloing stuff apart from short gritstone routes (often only 30' or 40' long) but I know soloing was more common back in the 70's and 80's. Perhaps we've all just gone soft in the UK ;-) but I think soloing is definitely one of those things that comes in and out of fashion.
I'm reading Andy Pollit's autobiography at the moment (one of the UK's top trad climbers of the 1980's) and in one chapter he reels off a list of his friends who died soloing. Its a dangerous game but easy to get sucked into when everyone around you seems to be doing it.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 22, 2016 - 09:33am PT
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So casual people forget to put on clothes, like a day at the beach!
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 22, 2016 - 12:12pm PT
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This guy makes it look casual in This video,
The Solo of Marooned 11c-d, ? - ! ( full on 5.12, almost b, IMHO )[Click to View YouTube Video]
The holds all there, but the location of the thing, it has an unrelenting steepness, & is way out of bounds, a long walk, not a place to 'solo for a casual day out for the camera'
'casual?
He floats it,
grabs the no hands rest as if it were above water,
is he even breathing hard?
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
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WAY solid climber, fo sho. Minus style points for the man-bun, tho.
BAd
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Stan Pitcher
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 16, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
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No man bun in the link I posted. Just a story about a guy doing a vertical mile of hard soling back east.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 16, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
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What was once special is now commonplace.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Nov 16, 2016 - 05:06pm PT
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[
ho mahn Donini Spoke
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 16, 2016 - 05:19pm PT
Making soloing look casual and treating soloing too casually are two very different things.
If you don't make soloing look casual you shouldn't be doing it and if you treat soloing too casually you won't be doing it for long.
~
Quah,
Then
double dose
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2607974&tn=8360
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Things like calling it Free Solo Friday ? Can that be good?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
I'm not prothletizing the very way that one processes when fingers and toes are all that hold you in space is the most special place
Eventually giving it up or it giving you the chop
It is not a race to loose, the time and place to choose is before yo leave the safe ground
the time & place of demise you can choose
be in your own head zone , if you continue to reject the cord and go cordless
Proceed and fvck up the place, then is that a disgrace ? I'm not sure if that is winning or loosing the race.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 16, 2016 - 05:19pm PT
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Making soloing look casual and treating soloing too casually are two very different things.
If you don't make soloing look casual you shouldn't be doing it and if you treat soloing too casually you won't be doing it for long.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Nov 16, 2016 - 06:32pm PT
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This stuff is easy.
If we can elect Trump, we can do anything!
The way that people form beliefs about stuff (like soloing?) is changing in ways that we don't understand.
Moore's law is playing us for fools.
Time will tell whether or not we are fools, just like it did for those omniscient omnipotent dinosaurs.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jun 30, 2017 - 05:57am PT
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^^^ That video bugs me.
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