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Greg Barnes
climber
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Ecstasy - rap bolted, the runout ego driven, not relevant to this ground-up discussion.
I think most of us consider a rap-bolted runout on a 16-bolt sport pitch contrived in the extreme.
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Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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No worries...
One of these days, we'll all die off...and you can let your grandkids rap-bolt your 20' test piece
Cheers
RB
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Kevin wrote: Eldo has been dumbed down considerably in the last 10 years, and every year we see multiple applications for bolted anchors to "make it safer". I think the only thing that is going to preserve a traditional ethic are the people right here who have strong enough convictions to stand up to the "Safety Police".
Funny...Most routes in Eldo have been preserved from the "safety police". Jules Vernes, Scary Canary, Tanquery, Wisdom, Tubesock Tanline, LeVoid...etc...Have Not had Bolts or Pins added since the FA!
Most of the bolted anchors REPLACED existing bad (trees/ratty slings) anchors that were in dire need of a repair!
Bubba wrote: I guess the upside of the current "management" plan is that most of the traffic gets placed on relatively few climbs, leaving the good stuff open for those of us who who don't need our "safety" decided by committe.
In my 30-plus years of climbing in Eldo I have NEVER seen a waiting line or any r or x rated route.
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Tony Puppo
climber
Bishop
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Actually the route in Pine Creek is Eclipsed and if my memory serves me the run out to the arete is GU
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Hey Tony, I thought that Eclipsed was the 11+ to the right of Sheila.
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Tony Puppo
climber
Bishop
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Greg, You're right of course, I was thinkin'wescrist was taliking about the traverse to the arete on Eclipsed. I wish I could more clearly remember the chronology of the early bolts in Pine Creek. Herbert did not start the bolting on Ecstacy, that was Eric Goukas I believe, Tommy did the redpoint of the route.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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The point is, that decision has already been made. Made by one person on a resource that is shared by many. The answer is NO, I don't want you, or any ONE, making that decision on your own.
The FA hasn't made any decision for anyone--except himself when he establishes a route. Its pretty clear that adding bolts to an existing route is the defining act that answers the "am I good enough" question for everyone. More precisely, the retrobolter removes this question from the equation altogether when any bumblef*#k can then head up the route, almost guaranteed an amusement park like experience.
Oh well, maybe that's why we boulder. How do you feel about cheater stones and jumping for holds from the ground?
Curt
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
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Bob D. - As usual, you fire off a retort without actually reading the statement you are arguing about.
I didn't say that there were wating lines on the R and X rated climbs in Eldo. I said that because there were convenience anchors sprouting up in many places, that the hordes tended to go where the anchors were rather than where there might be better climbing.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 24, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
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Plenty of it still going on.
Ground up bump
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 24, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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Hmm, all this time. And I thought it was "grind up."
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 24, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
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Does "water up" count?
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Aug 15, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
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Just had to bump this one on a Mon. morning...
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Aug 15, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
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I think at the crux of the discussion is whether you feel that a "first ascent" is legitimate way to experience climbing. By that I mean that, for the most part, a ground up first ascent(FA) is a completely different experience than all subsequent ascents. The FA is usually a venture into the unknown and only the first people to climb the route will truly experience that.
However, as John Long pointed out, most of the current generation of climbers don't really see the FA as a different way to experience climbing. They view first ascentionists as "route setters", someone who is doing a community service by creating climbs in a particular area. Along with the idea of community service the only thing they feel is important about the style in which the route was put up was if it was "properly/safely" bolted.
Because of this attitude of "route setting" instead of "doing a first ascent" the current generation of climbers see no problem with adding bolts to existing routes to make them "safer."
Hopefully, the two can coexist and find their own space. One style does not have to triumph over the other. Compromise doesn't mean removing bolts on over-bolted top-down sport routes nor does it mean adding bolts to ground up first ascents.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 15, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
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That's a good point Bruce, and one I can understand for harder sport-type routes where things are Red-Pointed after many attempts. In that case, who cares who "sets" the route, nobody really attempts a no falls, onsight (which is the Trad mindset).
I still believe that a ground-up FA is important in the context of the Trad mindset. I must say that my opinion is not quite as steadfast as it used to be for harder sport-type routes.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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The end result is what really counts. Our climbng rules dictate that the FA holds ownership of the route for life and perhaps longer so I take that responsibility quite seriously. I still do GU when the logistics warrent that style but I will go back and fix any mistakes that I made in the heat of battle. I do usually tend to get it pretty close to right GU but I will not make future climbers suffer from a mistake that I made on the FA. Top down is nice because you do not need a partner. You can go out and work your project with the gri gri, get it cleaned and bolted and ready to climb without subjecting your partner to a 6hr belay session.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Ground up will always exist. Some routes demand it!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I agree. some routes it is easier to start at the bottom and climb up.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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The end result is what really counts. Our climbng rules dictate that the FA holds ownership of the route for life and perhaps longer so I take that responsibility quite seriously. I still do GU when the logistics warrent that style but I will go back and fix any mistakes that I made in the heat of battle. I do usually tend to get it pretty close to right GU but I will not make future climbers suffer from a mistake that I made on the FA. Top down is nice because you do not need a partner. You can go out and work your project with the gri gri, get it cleaned and bolted and ready to climb without subjecting your partner to a 6hr belay session.
If you can't do a route ground up, leave it for a future generation.
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