Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 363 of total 363 in this topic |
Tired Trad Tales
Trad climber
southern cal
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 20, 2006 - 11:16am PT
|
I was wondering if people still put up climbs in this manner or did that die with my EBs?
|
|
andanother
climber
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 11:45am PT
|
I'm not sure i understand the question.
I've seen a lot of people making new routes at my gym, and they always start at the bottom and go up.
Do other people do it differently?
If not ground up, how will you know where to put the holds?
|
|
lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 12:00pm PT
|
Yes, we did a 6 pitch .12a ground up with a hand drill. Took all summer to get it done. PITA, but a great experience.
|
|
WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 12:11pm PT
|
Locker and I have put up five "ground up" routes so far in the last year. It's the reason I've been bleeding a lot. They're all 5.9+ to 10C/D I also have a 10B/X with another partner. There are plenty of GU routes being done.
|
|
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 12:17pm PT
|
The prevailing ethic at Pinnacles National Monument is GU and there are over 800 known routes there. Drilling 3/8" bolts on lead was never so much fun.
Bruce
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 12:27pm PT
|
Sure, lots of people. We did a bunch this summer, all ground up, all hand drilled, although all short (not more than 4 pitches). Sketchy stances, dicey hooks, yeehaw! Many of the new routes at some sport areas like Owens go in ground up (with power drills of course!). Of the areas I'm familiar with - Sierra granite, Valley, Tuolumne, Red Rocks, Owens, J Tree, Pinnacles, even Alabama Hills - all have a good number of the new routes (even a majority) going in ground-up.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 12:38pm PT
|
I partcipated in a whole bunch (>5) route FA's this year with Eric, all of them ground up.. some of them went without bolts.
Not only are there routes out there to do, there are routes out there to do which are natural lines requiring no bolts!
I don't think I would do a rap bolted route... probably because I couldn't climb it afterwards.
|
|
ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 01:19pm PT
|
Was there some other way to put up a route that I'm unaware of ?
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 01:32pm PT
|
I think some of the ground uppers got ground up into hamburger?
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 01:41pm PT
|
Who Cares???
|
|
vegastradguy
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 01:45pm PT
|
every FA i've done has been ground up- and a good chunk of the new lines in RR (trad, anyway) are being done that way.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 01:52pm PT
|
I did a few this season GU. Good times.
|
|
hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 02:50pm PT
|
figures the bird brain roid rage rap bolter said "who cares???"
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 02:56pm PT
|
I REALLY hate to say this, but the true test of a good sport route is not whether it was GU or rap bolted, or however it was bolted, but how good the route is.
Finding a stance to bolt from is great, but you really are not going to find too many of those when climbing upside down, for instance.
Different animal, not adventure, but still good in it's own way.
AND it keeps Crimpergirl off the streets, LOL!
|
|
Nate D
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 03:00pm PT
|
I partook.
|
|
jackass
climber
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 03:58pm PT
|
I just have to ask...
Some of you make an extra point to say that your ground up route was done with a hand drill. Why in the hell would you use a hand drill unless you were in a wilderness/national park setting? It's like saying that you sewed your harness by hand... why would you do that?
If it takes an hour to drill a hole vs. 6 minutes, plus the fact that a drill is going to do a better job, then why use a hand drill? Is it better ethically somehow? Does it make your route more pure?
Seems like wasted energy and time to me, but to each his own... I am just wondering.
|
|
mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 04:41pm PT
|
Nate, Jerry and myself did a few this summer, ranging from 5.7 to 5.10.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 05:05pm PT
|
Who Cares???
I do. I still put them up the same way - ground up, no previewing, no pre-cleaning, no pre-placing pro, no dogging. I don't know you other than through you're posts Bob, but I guess I'm a bit surprised to hear this from you, don't know why offhand...
|
|
lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 05:11pm PT
|
Jackass, our local trad area is wilderness. We have no choice. If I had a choice I would consider the power drill. The hand drill definitely adds to the adventure/pucker factor though.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 05:37pm PT
|
if you don't have to drill a lot of bolts, then a hand drill is a lot lighter for back country routes whether wilderness or not.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 05:51pm PT
|
trip, no way?! chking the web now.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 05:55pm PT
|
i think I been had.
|
|
ikellen
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 07:00pm PT
|
I had it easy. 6 ground-up first ascents of
...
boulder problems.
No bolts, no drilled hooks. Who says size matters? :P
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 07:23pm PT
|
Joe... it just climbing. It's just a sport.
Most people don't care how a route went in...just if it a good route.
I drilled on the lead routes that are 5.12. Most haven't seen a second ascent and most were self-serving.
To the weasel Hardman/Dan. You really are a chickensh#t.
|
|
slabhappy
Trad climber
Forest City NC
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 08:17pm PT
|
Alive and well in North Carolina. There is a legacy here that demands it.
|
|
ec
climber
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 08:26pm PT
|
A friend of mine who had tasted the fruit of both trees told me that after climbing the "first ascent" of his "top-down" creation, "It was like doing someone else's route." Myself, having done only GU routes, that explanation was good enough for me. I didn't need to go there...
|
|
TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 08:41pm PT
|
"Ground up" is what my hands would be if I ever tried a hard crack.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 08:46pm PT
|
silly troll
less than 10% of the new routes I have put up are Not ground up.
Remember when the issue was whether they were hangdogged, first?
Different styles, different ablicability.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 09:11pm PT
|
Bob, I guess I'm still a complete throwback that considers it rock first, art second, and a sport if you only climb other people's routes. The LNT thing was just too ingrained I guess. But then I fought chalk as well and had to give up on that precious ethic after 26 years on hitting the sun line on my first trip to the Valley. It was literally a "slippery" slope as while I left that chalk bag in the Valley at the end of the trip I did finally replace it for 95+ degree days and caked up holds in the gym. I've got a couple of FA's in sight for next year that may require a bolt or two to keep the rope from cutting in a fall, but that would probably be the only circumstance where I'd use one. But see, right there, a slippery sloper...
|
|
m e
climber
CO
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 09:26pm PT
|
Im new at this so i dont care if you laugh. When you speak of ground up on lead bolting, do you not hang when you drill? So you can hold on to a 5.anything and hand drill for an hour or however long it takes? If this is the case i'm putting down my beer, cuz ive got a sh#t load of training to do. wow.
|
|
john hansen
climber
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 10:23pm PT
|
i only use drill bits made from the rib bones of deer, fitted with a small quartz crysal attached to the end , and lightly tapped over and over with a worn river stone.. after many weeks I fill the hole with a carved piece of madrone burl that has been slowly smoke cured over juniper wood for a year. To this I attach a jawbone from a wild boar. This is the only "pure" way.
Sure takes a long time to put up a route thou....
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 10:34pm PT
|
Jaybro said it for me - "different applicability". And Ron: "That was (is) the goal to shoot for." Meaning on-sight ground up no falls/frigging nuts only FA. But, I have carried a few blades and a hammer to make a good route possible. Example: Risky Business, RMNP, 9 pitches of very run-out slab with Mark Wilford. (Now ruined by twenty or so retro-bolts). I've occasionaly also placed bolts from stances on lead, with a hand drill, beginning with the S-Direct in Little Cottonwood, in 1967. I've even added bolts to a big wall route (my own, Wind, Sand and Stars), so that it could be free-climbed. I don't ever recall doing the top-down thing, but have clipped bolts on a number of routes established that way, and enjoyed them.
Ultimate style though? - on-sight free-solo of a new route. My finest experience in this style (on rock) was the North Buttress of Putscanturpa Norte, Peru.
|
|
N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 11:10pm PT
|
Yep, got me sum too!
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 11:24pm PT
|
Jello, do you have any pics of that route? Hope that story's included in the new book.
Really funny JH.
|
|
aldude
climber
Monument Manor
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 11:43pm PT
|
Ground up = First Ascent
Top down = First Descent
Let's call a spade a spade!!
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 11:46pm PT
|
I still do it that way most of the time. Now that I have a power drill, I tend to look for new crags that aren't in wilderness areas if they're not going to involve good crack systems. Kinds sad but hand drilling gets pretty old pretty fast, it's definitely work.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2006 - 11:59pm PT
|
"Some of you make an extra point to say that your ground up route was done with a hand drill. Why in the hell would you use a hand drill unless you were in a wilderness/national park setting?"
They were all in designated Wilderness. The extra point of the hand drill is to show that not only did ground-up not die with EBs, but hand drilling didn't die with power drills. Of course, sport climbing didn't exist before power drills...but that's a different topic. Sort of.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 12:16am PT
|
Here's a pic of Putscanturpa, Mimi. Yes, it will be in the book.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 12:26am PT
|
Cool runnings!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 12:30am PT
|
And you didn't get scared?
|
|
More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 12:35am PT
|
Jello:
Speaking of the S Direct in Little Cottonwood, I'd love to hear any details about your ascent: What kind of shoes were you wearing? Did you & George take any falls? Ted Wilson told me that he did the climb with Chuck Pratt a long time ago. He said that Chuck was way impressed, He loved LCC.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 12:36am PT
|
For shizzle, Werner. Jello, didn't you solo a new route on the Eiger? That must've been pretty interesting.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 12:36am PT
|
Werner- as you know, without fear, there's not much of an experience. I had fear on the climb, but used it to keep me safe.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 12:40am PT
|
Wow
I thought I was the only guy who was scared. And scared to be safe, I never thought of that angle, makes sense.
Edit; weschrist, are you sure?
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 12:45am PT
|
cool stuff Jello, I want to read about that one.
"Of course, sport climbing didn't exist before power drills...but that's a different topic. Sort of."
Maybe, but I've put up dozens of sportclimbs groundup on hooks. Some of them might be before I heard of the Bosch, not sure, though.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 12:52am PT
|
OK, so my second Bloody Mary is kicking in, so forgive me, please...
Air- I was 16 at the time George and I did S-Direct. I wore an old pair of after-ski boots with holes in the soles (no bullshit). I had earlier repeated the Dorsal Fin in these, with George. I got the crux pitch on the Direct, and had my first experience of wandering from chickenhead to chickenhead, placing 1/4" bolts by hand. I loved it! There were no falls - we didn't fall back then, except very rarely.
Mimi- yes, I did a new route on the Eiger, and that will be in the book, but it was too big to capture in a sentence or two. The abreviated version will be posted pretty soon, though. Thanks for your continued interest in the experience - as in Jimi Hendricks.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 01:00am PT
|
Wes- you really do seem to be certain, but I don't think I'm stupid. Just my opinion, though. When I repeat a route, I feel like I'm having a communication with the pioneers - learning from their perspective, and growing. You seem to climb for different reasons. I doubt whether you're stupid, though.
Best,
-Jeff
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 01:14am PT
|
Actually, wes, as long as protection can be placed, I see no problem with a roped party placing protection on a route that was first soloed.
You use the word "reasonable" a lot in these discussions. What is reasonable at all in taking risks climbing? A reasonable person avoids such "stupid" risks.
But, really, I know what you're driving at. It's just my opinion that climbing is an art, and the FA is an artwork.
Peace,
-Jeff
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 01:34am PT
|
Isn't the character of a route directly related to the amount of risk one faces on said route? The TR is a great equalizer; all fun, less risk. But, alas, less prestige.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 01:41am PT
|
"When you're the world's most famous toproper you take your life in your own hands every day."
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 01:44am PT
|
Especially if you're soloing with only one mini-Traxion. Sorry for the CT.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 01:57am PT
|
"The average American rarely thinks of death,...."
Are you sure?
Edit: and on "freestone" Geek towers Kauk ran it out on one pitch up there (face) some scary sequential moves. I asked him once why he didn't place a bolt to protect the thing.
He said "I was just climbing and never thought I needed one."
No chest beating, and that's just the way it goes on first ascents sometimes. Guys are just climbing ......
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 01:58am PT
|
Wes- I'm headed to bed. But I should have specified "natural" protection. I didn't mean bolts. I do have to say, though, that you can do what you want, but if you modify an existing route with additionl bolts, I will just consider you disrespectful of those who climbed first. Not every climb needs to be for every climber. There are plenty of routes to choose from, whatever your abilities or style prefence.
You seem hostile and uncomfortable with the reality of different perspectives. But, then, we all have our triggers.
-Jello
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 02:01am PT
|
Wes, it sounds like you're all about instant gratification. There's nothing more fun than working to get better in order to do a route on the list. That includes being solid enough as a 5.8 climber to not fall off runout 5.6. If you don't practice these skills, you'll never have them. Which makes a huge safety difference, especially in the mountains.
Edit: Spare the runout, spoil the climber.
|
|
mtwoodsonguide
Big Wall climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 02:15am PT
|
last weekend Tahquitz, me, your mom, and a Bosch Anihilator.
the text to be linked here
course you gotta tr it first at most crags because the finished product is what really matters
|
|
MisterE
Trad climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 02:27am PT
|
RULE #1: The first ascentionist's approach MUST BE RESPECTED!
RULE #2: If you feel this is no longer applicable, you MUST ASK THE FIRST ASCENTIONIST IF YOU MAY MAKE CHANGES.
RULE #3: If the response doesn't make any sense, see Rule #1
Erik
|
|
mtwoodsonguide
Big Wall climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 02:34am PT
|
Whoahwhoahwhoa misterE there can only be one Erik with a K from Washington here and you are not it little man.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 02:45am PT
|
It's all just a game;....and fun is one of the main reasons for climbing. I personally do F A's ground up;....it's fun for me. Others think differently;....have your fun the way you see fit. My granny can rap bolt....She can also put em' up on the lead;...more proud in my book....(You should see her on the lead hauling up the powerdrill with her false teeth...).
|
|
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 04:11am PT
|
There are a zillion routes out there. Some have pro every 4-5 feet (or less), some have pro every 10+ feet, some don't have much protection. The bottom line is that there are enough routes for everyone's taste in climbing.
I would hate to see climbing protection become "lowest common denominator." Not every route has to be antiseptically safe. Some of us remember when the word "risk" was actually part of climbing termninology. Risk might not be for every climber, but please don't take it away from those for whom it is part of their experience.
Bruce
|
|
Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 12:19pm PT
|
Werner and Jeff were off on a tangent about fear. I think of fear as my friend, it tells me to pay very close attention.
|
|
Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 12:29pm PT
|
Some of you make an extra point to say that your ground up route was done with a hand drill. Why in the hell would you use a hand drill unless you were in a wilderness/national park setting? It's like saying that you sewed your harness by hand... why would you do that?
If it takes an hour to drill a hole vs. 6 minutes, plus the fact that a drill is going to do a better job, then why use a hand drill? Is it better ethically somehow? Does it make your route more pure?
Sure, I think it's more impressive if a route was put up with a hand drill. It means that
1) it was harder to do. Instant impressive points right there.
2) the FA certainly thought harder about where to put the bolts (and whether to put them in at all) since it took him 20 - 40 minutes instead of 12 - 50 seconds of drilling for each hole (who takes 6 minutes with a power drill?)
That having been said, i think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who only ever does climbs that were put in GU with a hand drill.
Personally, I think power drills are overall a slightly bad thing and we'd have less ethical issues if they weren't available. But that's also a convenient opinion for me to have since I'm not willing to shell out $600 for a power drill for the occasional FA I might do.
BTW, what do you mean the power drill is doing a better job? If your bits are sharp, the quality of the hole shouldn't be in question either way, right?
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
|
"And the number of bolts on Lev 29 is just silly. When they rebolted that they should have realized that 6 foot bolt spacing on a vertical wall is overkill, regardless of difficulty."
Heard this from a number of people, and I actually agree with you - I also think that Prince of Darkness is overbolted. Also overkill to have bolts next to bomber small nut placements such as on Sour Mash. But we went to the FAs and asked them and they wanted all the bolts replaced (and note that Jorge Urioste himself replaced the bolt by the 3" cam placement on the crux pitch a few years before we did the rebolting). Removing bolts from someone's FA is the same as adding them - imposing your ethics on their route. And (assuming the bolt ban is ever lifted), you're free to go put up neighboring routes in whatever style you see fit.
Since then, I've replaced some bolts with Jorge, and he gave me permission to use my common sense while doing replacement of his routes. I chopped one of his FA bolts on the last route of his I replaced (Spare Rib, left of Crimson) - since there was bomber modern pro right next to it (wide fingers sized cams, which weren't around when they did the FA). I think he wouldn't mind seeing a bit bigger spacing of the bolts on Levitation, but we'd have to make sure both he and Joanne (who freed that route on TR and led some of the pitches with Lynn Hill & Largo on the FFA) approved of it. You can basically A0 the cruxes - maybe that's something that they want to preserve.
And bomber big bolts or not, on those upper pitches the bolts will loosen up and fall out over time - that rock (starting on the 10d sandy lieback pitch) is super soft. Glue-ins would be the only thing that works for the very long term up there. Those bolts would be truly bomber, and perhaps they can be located a bit further apart. Up to the Uriostes though, not you or me!
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 02:44pm PT
|
Wes, I'm not advocating repeatedly placing and removing pins on a free climb. What I mean is the occasional well-placed fixed thin pin, left as protection for the route, when you can't place a nut or cam. Even if the pin must be replaced every ten years, the crack will not get beat out unless people are sloppy. At least this way you're still working with the features of the rock, and not forcing the route with bolts. But I agree that there's a good argument for placing a bolt in the same area as the pin. I'm also with you, in that employing clean aid techniques is better than scarring cracks with pins. We seem to differ, however, in our willingness or desire to respect and learn from the efforts of the route's pioneers.
|
|
andanother
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 04:05pm PT
|
this is crazy!
FA ethics being discussed on the Supertopo Forum?!?!?!
I never thought I would see the day. Such an interesting topic has never been discussed among climbers before. Kudos to all of you for bringing up all these great points. You're really breaking new ground here, and making many people think about things they have never thought about before.
Whatever happened to the old saying: "ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer"?
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
|
hedge- My point exactly: anytime you place a bolt, you're "forcing" the route. And I for one have never claimed that most overhanging sport routes could be bolted on lead. All I'm saying is leave routes alone that have been free-climbed already without bolts, or with a small number of bolts. There are plenty of bolts to clip already, on routes of all grades. You can also establish routes in any way you want. We need routes like Bachar-Yarian, Southern Belle and New Music as cultural relics and inspirational projects for those who want to experience that kind of climbing. Already a number of my old routes have been retro-bolted out of existence. I really do hope it doesn't happen to any more of them. No one is trying to take away your good new sport routes, and none of us old geezers claims we could climb them, either. Geez...you guys are hard to have a conversation with...
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 05:06pm PT
|
weschrist
You can't even save your own self, and all while "preaching" how you are going to save others who according to you are "ignorant".
Blah ......
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 06:05pm PT
|
hedge/wes- you guys are summarily dismissing 100 years of climbing history as "stupid","disingenous" and "egotistical". Oliver Perry-Smith was probably not coming from a place of stupidity, disingenousnes or egotism when he was leading scarcely-protected cracks in Dresden, in the early years of the last century. Nor were Joe Brown and Don Whillans as they led their masterpieces in the 'fifties. And David Breashears' climb of Perilous Journey was motivated by pure desire and executed with supreme skill and self-control. These and other climbs like them are a very important part of the history of climbing. The tradition continues today. If you don't like the climbs, why can't you just leave them alone. As Dingus said, would you like someone to come along and decide to add or remove bolts from your routes? I doubt you would agree to that, but there may indeed be climbers who feel your routes are over or under bolted, and would be justified in making any changes they desire, according to your way of thinking.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 06:47pm PT
|
wes doesn't even climb routes. he's a boulderer.
he stirs the pot more than i do. hah
;)
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 06:56pm PT
|
wes, I've figured it out - you're not a real climber - you're a petty government bureaucrat masquerading as a climber.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 06:57pm PT
|
that's it!
admit nothing Jello!!!
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 06:59pm PT
|
My lips are sealed to this thread, Munge...
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 07:23pm PT
|
Wes, the problem with your position is that when lawyers and the public at large begin to perceive climbing as safe and free from risk and potential injury, then just as you seek to blame somebody for inherent and historical risk on climbs, claims of negligence and legal action could arise. We all suffer if that style and history are erased in favor of bolt grids, which you seem to be advocating. Just out of curiosity, since overbolting seems to chafe you in a similar way, how would you propose to regulate the tidal wave of bolts that would pretty up your world?
I think what you need are some MetalVision glasses. This stereoscopic marvel places grids of bolts on the rock no matter where you look, even in the tent at night. They can help make things better. Really. Or maybe you should stick to crack climbing.
|
|
scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 07:44pm PT
|
weschrist writes:
I never advocated using personal discression to alter an existing route, just common sense.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 07:47pm PT
|
I don't quite get that one either.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 07:51pm PT
|
weschrist
Quit f'cking around man, if you want to stir the pot with this dumbshit logic and lead people around in circle's then you've just demonstrated poor social interaction and we'll just lose respect for your opinions.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 08:06pm PT
|
Wes, you're the one that brought up the legal crap in the first place. And adding bolts to routes and some routes having too many bolts. What the f#k!
WB's right on when he describes your circular logic. Why can't you get over a few runout routes that you lack the stones to do and focus on climbing the ones you can handle?
I'll take you in a common sense competition any day.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 08:18pm PT
|
How about condemning this crap to ratcatchers.com? or is it rocktards.com?
Where it belongs.
BTW, I'm all for TI pins as fixed pro, but some damned idiot who can't even do the routes free keeps stealing 'em.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 08:31pm PT
|
Then go paint a "Mona Lisa".
No you'll paint some some dumb cartoon and call it a "Mona Lisa".
And some other fool will paint a mustache on it ......
Hehehe Edit: Just see above for the example I was just making.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 08:38pm PT
|
Good lord, Wes, are you predicting corpses stacked like cordwood at the base of B-Y and even the pitifully underprotected DNB? That's awesome! Just think how many wall rats will be able to join the SAR team due to all the new work! Look out WB, you're going to be a busier man.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 08:39pm PT
|
This sh#t has been hashed over maybe 5 to ten thousand times on the internet.
Mean little to nothing to me.
There are much bigger issues to deal with...than ground up or not.
Who gives a flying f*#k????
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 08:43pm PT
|
You do ......
|
|
atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 09:08pm PT
|
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 09:19pm PT
|
Actually I think it's time to reinitiate the forgotten practice of crag traverses. With all these stupid grid bolted sport routes so close together we should go sideways. New route names, new ratings, more glory!!.....I don't go up anymore..just sideways.
Jack
|
|
goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 09:29pm PT
|
I know they have that in the Gunks, a full traverse of the Trapps, 67 pitches & about 9,000 feet long.
Maybe we should start hula hooping the Flatirons.
Has anyone traversed Redgarden?
Damn, I'm feeling inspired now.
|
|
KP Ariza
climber
SCC
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2006 - 10:28pm PT
|
Where do old whales(climbers)go to die(cry)?.....Boneyard=Supertopo Forum-
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 12:01am PT
|
So who on supertaco stirs the most sh#t without being an obvious JuanDe type trolling effect?
i.e seems like a fair question and the thread gets big due to controversy or perceived controversy?
just curious
Wes going to Pinns this weekdend. Sat or Sun. not sure. email me if you want to change plans from the Valley.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 12:25am PT
|
I was looking at the stats from the 2005 ANAM (sorry Werner...) and if you ask what fraction of accidents from 1951 to 2004 had the "contributory cause" "placed no/inadequate protection" you find it's around 11%. 16% of the "conributory cause" was "exceeding abilities."
If you look at the "immediate cause" for an accident, 6% were due to "exceeding abilities."
Of course, not all of the protection contribution was due to runout routes... so the cause of accidents for runout routes is no more than 11%.
When we're talking about making routes safe, it would seem that learning how to judge one's own abilities is probably a better place to work than retro-bolting routes considered "unsafe." The psychological issues involved with runout routes would seem to me to be the perception of inexperienced climbers rather than an actual assessment of risk.
Just how many people have died attempting the Bachar-Yerian? How many people have been injured? How many people have done it?
People safely climb the B-Y. I don't see why the climb has to be brought down to the level of any climber. It is a test piece for a number or reasons. You do not have to go up and climb it if you are not ready to do it safely. There are a lot of other climbs to do... and many ways of working up to it.
I do agree though, in the future all of the routes will be rebolted and/or re-equipped precisely because the generation that pioneered the routes will be gone and a new generation, unaware of the pioneering efforts surmounting the difficulties and pushing the limits, will simply believe that their way is the only way...
Fortunately I won't be around to angst over it...
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 12:44am PT
|
Thanks Ed for such a clear and concise summation. Keep the faith, many of us aren't that ancient yet, despite what some of these young punks attest. I don't see consensus retrobolting of bold classics happening anytime soon.
And with or without bolts, climbing is dangerous, period. Why is this so hard for some people to grasp?
|
|
atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 12:44am PT
|
f*#k it, I quit...
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 11:26am PT
|
By all accounts that I have read and heard, the BASE jumpers decided to flout the NPS rules (confident that they knew the "true way") and were essentially banned from YNP. There are BASE jumper old dads out there who lurk on this forum which can give their POV.
I am resigned to the fact that the climbing will outlive me and that my own particular POV on FAs is transient. I will not be around to set an example... or to teach young climbers, right from wrong, or recount the FA and FFA stories. For that we have Falcon Guides, I guess. So at some point when climbers are reequiping some route I helped put up in the distant future, and cursing that I used "anchor bolts" rather than "five-piece" I'm sure that they will also question my judgement as to the "proper" placement of the protection to ensure optimum safety.
From what I now know, protecting the FA is a much more complex issue than just figuring out the right place for the bolts... or whether or not a bolt is better than a fixed pin, or just running it out. It has been stated again and again, by the FA team members on this forum, that they were not intending to put up "death routes," runout routes are not intentionally created, and certainly not to scare the armies of climbers yet to come and do them. The FA team, for the most part, is just climbing a line, going somewhere that no one else has gone before. It might occur to the FA team somewhere on the climb, that this would be a nice route for other people to do sometime... and they just then might think that more conventional protection would be nice. Of course, they may also be close to being out of bolts at that point too.
The nature of the sport has changed dramatically over the last couple of decades. Most climbers then where used to doing FAs and FFAs, especially at the top end of the climbing food chain. Most climbers today do not do FAs or FFAs.
You can complain all you want about the FA team, fact is that they actually did figure out how to climb the line, and they left the description of the climb for others to follow if they so choose. The authority of the FA is in the description of the climb. There are many FA teams that do not describe the climb, leaving the line for others to discover for themselves. Of course, no one knows how many climbs this represents, that's the point. Maybe someday the bolts and hangers of long neglected climbs will oxidize away, the cracks will refill with soil and be replanted, the flakes will exfoliate off, the lichen will inch its way back onto the faces and the moss will collect in the runoffs, and the ancient forgotten lost paths of long ago FA teams will be waiting for rediscovery.
It is my hope that at that time, the climbers of the re-FA will treat the climb with all due respect. I am wishing them a good time on their FA, just like the others who had gone before them, unknown to the ages.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 11:43am PT
|
The laws of nature bind us hand and foot, yet we think we are free to do as we please.
Yes, there are rules, and those that think there are no rules, will be kicked by that very nature they so called love so much.
|
|
Anastasia
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 12:04pm PT
|
Ground up is not a rule, it is a "natural law."
(As a genre, natural law is the principle that some things are as they are, because that is how they are.)
If you didn't climb it from the ground up, you didn't climb it "period." It is extremely logical.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 12:11pm PT
|
You have the independent free will to do what you want.
Now go do it!
At the end of your life report back your results ......
|
|
Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
|
As I see it climbers who put up a lot of rap bolted routes are fixated on the end result ( I.E. Another route in the guide for me), vs the process of climbing. While ground up is not always the safest way, it definately maximizes the adventure. I think that all routes should go in from the ground up simply to decrese our impact as climbers on the environment. It also forces climbers to really know the line before they alter it. Most important it would hopefully preserve some climbs for our future generations. There are lines I have checked out that I know I could climb, but could not bolt on lead. So who am I to lay claim to that rock and bring it down to my level by preplacing the bolts from above? Isn't that a form of stealing?
I think that everyone with a Bosch should ask what the difference is between gridbolting a cliff and spraypainting grafitti on El Cap. You could say that one "leaves something behind to be enjoyed by others", but I bet the artist is saying the same thing.
I am not saying that all bolting is wrong or evil, just that if everyone spent just a bit of time and reflection on the "rad new line" they just discovered they may realize that bolting it is not really increasing the beauty or useability of the land. Why not just top rope it? Why do we as climbers think it is our God given right to bolt whatever we want?
There are climbers today who are putting up 5.13 pitches on El Cap protected by 2 hand drilled bolts, and others who are leading 5.13 on bashies and other aid crap. How can we say that Bold climbing is dead? I bet that in the future there will be entire cliffs that will be stripped of bolts, because there will be a new generation ready to push difficulty with new tools that allow them to do so.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 12:23pm PT
|
Don't f*#k with existing routes. If the fa/ffa party is deceased you have no one to ask permission of, so, again don't f*#k with it. Make your own routes instead of piggybacking on a better climber.
Retrobolt any of my routes and I will come back from the grave to throttle you, no matter how atheistic my views may be at my passing.
you bin served. haha
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 12:28pm PT
|
Excellent kevster.
Too funny Jaybro.
Wes, call me old fashioned, but it really is annoying and disrespectful when someone takes shots at people simply because they're older. Do you treat people of different ethnic backgrounds similarly? These so-called "old dads" could climb circles around you today. Show some respect for your elders would ya!
And IMHO, I think you're simply off base with your idea of these menacing routes you're so fixated on being retrobolted. You're a dreamer thinking that would happen in 10-15 years.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 12:29pm PT
|
Just see, hehehe
There is "a law"
And fools think rules are made by people .........
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 12:50pm PT
|
I really think that at this moment in time there are really just two or maybe three categories of climbers.
Those who experience climbing and treat it as recreation and a type of exercise and who therefore view bolts as the latest means protection. They aren't interested in extending themselves psychologically and/or exposing themselves to risk. They also aren't interested in developing the skills necessary to control the risk factor: IE, getting stronger and better so that long run-outs don't seem quite so bad. We have a situation here in Colorado where a classic and respected ice climb (Ames Ice Hose)has had 3 bolts placed on it because someone deemed the first pitch "unnecessarily dangerous and run-out". This person is just not willing to develop the skills necessary to lead this climb and because they don't have alot of time to invest in getting better, well, they just bolted it.
The second type of climber is in climbing for the long run and views the rock and the mountain environment as sacred and part of a spiritual path. Bolts or any type of alteration in this environment is an afront to their philosophy because they see themselves as caretakers and so object to bolts and sport routes.
They really don't care how hard the climbing is or how run-out. They just wish to grow and become better people through learning about themselve through the climbing experience.
Then there is the third type who is a mixture of both. They view climbing as sacred and profound and enjoy the chasing of numbers and climbing hard and run-out routes but aren't so serious as to think of climbing as sacred. They just climb for the pure joy of it.
I see all types of climbers. People doing ground up first ascent in the desert, the south Platte, the Black Canyon and in Yosemite. IT's all good. We just have to maintain a balance and save some challenges for future generations of climbers. And by balance I mean that old routes which have been done in a groundup style should be left as a historical example of how climbs CAN be done. That everything doesn't have to be bolted and that bolts don't have to be every 6 or 10 feet apart in order for the route to have value. Speaking for myself I discovered years ago that bolting on rappel was just not interesting or held any value for me. That isn't part of why I climb. I would much rather go ground-up.
Anyway, just some views from behind the keyboard.
Jack
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 12:58pm PT
|
Which means everyone that does the climb in the future should do it with the number of bolts the FA team happened to pack up the route?
If the FA team is still around, and you ask them, maybe they will give their permission, and maybe not.
However, in time the FA team looses some of it's authority, especially if the route is popular and many many people have done it. Then it is possible that even the FA team's permission will not override the authority of the established route. That is, enough people had done it in the style it was created that no change is the only acceptable option.
When the FA team is not available then no conversation is possible, and it becomes a negotiation between the retro-bolters and the preservationists as to what is acceptable and what is not.
The Nose route is classic, but its current engineered state is far from its original state. But even for that climb, some people have a hard time seeing the route for the bolts (so to speak).
It will never be the case that people following after the FA will be given carte blanche to remake the climb the way they think it should be... and it should never be the case.
Whining over the "danger" and "safety" is simply ridiculous. It truely is... because in the end, you either push your ass through the moves or you back off. IT'S UP TO YOU! Claiming that the FA team is responsible for your safety on a climb they described falls under the rubric of "utter nonsense."
In the end, follow the wise advice of Werner... just go out and climb, do whatever... and accept responsibility for your actions, all of your actions. That is what "trad" climbing is all about, if it is about anything, and that is what the old dads are saying, if you are listening.
|
|
Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 01:41pm PT
|
One man's "Useless Void" is anothers treasure. Mind control is probably the most important tool in any climbers kit, maybe you need to practice some more?
If you gained some mind control then you would be able to enjoy all those run out routes mostly to yourself. Who gives anyone the right to decide how many bolts should be placed on a climb? If retrobolters added bolts in the same style that the route was put up they might understand the need for run-outs.
There are routes that I will never do because I am unwilling to put my life at risk. Does that give me authority to decide to take matters in my own hands and "Fix" those climbs so that they can be enjoyed by the masses? I don't think so......So who made you God?
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 01:46pm PT
|
Werner...I care somewhat about the sport of climbing...I really don't care if someone climbs a route ground up.
It a matter of style...and that a personal choice.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 01:53pm PT
|
You guys talking ground up "with hooks"?
Cuz' I know some trads that think that's "cheatin'
|
|
BrentA
Gym climber
Las Vizzle, on the rizzle
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 02:03pm PT
|
Jello....
Did you just mention New Music? On Lumpy Ridge...booyakashaw! Climbed that with the original hardware. Sickbird!
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
|
Like someone said, go find yout own damned routes and do them any way you see fit. DOn;t fvck wiht other people's routes if yo ucan't handle em the wya they went up,
See how simple that is?
Instead of whining and pissing and moaning, go make some new "sanitized for your protection" routes.
As yet another person said, and not for the last time I am sure, not every route is for every person.
ANother oldie but goodie:
You do not have the right to climb any old rock any old way you want.
|
|
Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 02:30pm PT
|
How do you "ground up" an 80-foot crack that's filled with 2 tons of dirt?
|
|
KP Ariza
climber
SCC
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 03:10pm PT
|
With gear,aiders,cleaning tools,brushes and eyewear. Now that's style!
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 03:12pm PT
|
IMHO no other topic has had so many words invested to so little effect – as has this one. I leave string theory out of this calculation as that is quite frankly beyond my ken. This interest in reordering the deck chairs on the Titanic always happens when some fundamental fact is missed. .
On one of my first climbs my tutor was stretched out, hanging by one hand, underneath a five foot roof. (As I had not yet given up on sneakers I was always relieved to see a roof coming up. I figured at least for awhile I would not need my feet.) This was also before hammer holsters were invented. The sling to my teacher’s five pound sledge ran into his back pocket and thence immediately out through a hole in the back, so the hammer was in fact swinging in the breeze. In order to put a pin in the wall above, mind you while still doing a one arm, he had to pull the hammer up till it got stuck in the hole. Hanging from one hand he had to put the sling in his teeth so the free hand could wriggle the hammer head through the hole. After tapping the pin once( a five pound sledge does that for you) he then threaded the hammer back through the hole in his pocket so it would be readily available for its next use. I have taken you through this tortured narrative because upon seeing this I learned a very fundamental fact. Each climber has their own form of climbing. Getting the hammer through that hole was part of my teacher’s climbing. Were he to get a new pair of pants I knew for a fact he would do only easy climbs until he had a new hole.
If you go to “Slandering the Mags” and read Steve Wunsch’s “Cruising Twelfth Street’ you will get perhaps a better description of this. What’s my point? The only reasons for discussion of how others climb is either out of pure curiosity or as a way to learn. There is no value system as there is no meaningful way to compare what different people actually do on a climb. We are pretending there is a value system where nothing actually exists. If I were foolishly to try and put it in physical terms, the dimensionality of the climbing metric is not finite. But I am not so foolish, so I won’t. Tell me where I am wrong. Please.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 03:34pm PT
|
Brent- earlier in this thread I told Munge that I would stop wagging my tongue (primarily because it just encouraged Mr Christ to keep spewing, as well). But since you brought up New Music, I think I'll break my vow and talk to you. First, I'm glad you enjoyed the route. It's one of those naturally run-out types that would be threatened by the tactics of retro-bolting mentioned here, and I hope that doesn't happen. It's in no way a "death route", but long falls are possible in several places. This is the natural character of the climb, don't you agree? Malcolm did a fine job of safely climbing and adequately protecting the first pitch. That gave me the second pitch which I felt was perfectly adequately protected by the one bolt I placed from the good foothold above the roof. Although it's pretty stout climbing for about 20 or 25' feet straight up to that wierd pod, where I suppose you could stop an place another bolt, the climbing eases so much from there to the belay that it seemed superfluous. Do you agree? Incidentally, did you do the upper pitches? There's some nice climbing on them, too, but I don't know if anyone's done them, most people seem to rap off after the second pitch.
I'd like to get your honest perspective on the value of this climb and others like it. Would you mind?
Cheers,
Jeff-
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 06:16pm PT
|
I'm not claiming that. I am claiming they are responsible for creating a useless void where an enjoyable route should be.
This is a question of esthetics and style, it essentially a fashion statement... climbs, climbing styles, climbing areas and climbing itself comes and goes out of fashion. As do all things cultural. If the meaning of the activity has any depth at all, then the activity itself is more than just the most recent, and transient, interpretation of that activity.
I enjoy offwidth, I enjoy squeeze chimneys... I don't share that enjoyment with many people... but there are some out there. I appreciate the routes that are in the Valley, and I especially appreciate the fact that they haven't been turned into "enjoyable" climbs, where the quotes are meant to emphasize the fact that not many people climb these routes, at least in part, because of the problematic protection.
It would be truely horrible if the Crack of Doom or the Crack of Dispair were retrobolted so that the exprience of climbing them would be free of the contemplation of "danger" running out long chimney climbs. Not fashionable. I would rather commune with Sacherer and Pratt on their own terms, or at least as closely as possible, on their climbs, as they did them.
So Wes, what do you want? You've got it I think... you are free to go out and change anything you want. There is no police force out there stopping you.
You might have to put up with a shitstorm from the community if you do this, but hey, no one is stopping you.
If you want approval and affirmation from the community, well, your proposal just won't get it... at least where I have climbed. But if you believe in your own view point, put theory into practice and weather what ever happens.
Take it like a man, stand up for what you believe... even if you will be haunted by Jaybro's ghost for the rest of your time on earth.... and then he'll probably kick your ass on the otherside; if there is one.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 06:30pm PT
|
Wes:
I have to say this. During the past 25 years I have not encountered one place where the people were as willing to discuss things as they are here. While I am demonstrably old I am not sure I am a true curmudgeon, yet. In the 70’s Jim B was the last Yosemite type I knew and I met the youngsters at Ken’s Facelift in August. Jim is a kick and the youngsters are frankly an amazing lot. We surely are in agreement this forum is a tremendous resource we need to use as best we can.
Over all these years a great number of capable and intelligent people have been unable to get their arms around some questions. There has to be a reason. We have objective data that we can do it. In my post I adopted the hypothesis that this has been so because we have not been careful enough to define terms and have not broken complex questions down into their fundamental units. Atoms if you will. So I asked myself what were the important things I saw as a beginner following my tutor up an established climb. The physical pleasure of doing a climb is important. If I am any kind of a decent human being that means I must want others also to get this kind of enjoyment if they wish it. I wanted to feel that I was getting a little better. While a lot of people feel this way also, that does not mean everyone has to. By no means. And as I recounted no two of us climb the same way. If you accept these ideas, there are huge consequences.
Immediately we understand why one person says this climb is a 5.X and another says it is a 5.Y. One person may have been climbing no handed because that is their form of climbing. So we have to take the rating system and everything that comes out of it, with a big grain of salt. Indeed our focus on ratings is a little hard to understand. No wonder all the arguments. What should I feel when Lynn Hill does what she does so well? I feel happy for her. Do I consider anyone a celebrity or famous because of what they have done? Absolutely not. I am just pleased they are living the life they want and are enjoying it.
I will end this tirade with the crux. If I would wish to enjoy climbing then I must, with equal fervor, desire that others find enjoyment. Accept this, and the flood gates are opened wide.
Cheers,
|
|
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 06:49pm PT
|
All this speculation is interesting, but where is this mythical cliff where every beautiful 5.8 route was put up by 5.11+ climbers who chose to use very few, if any, bolts.
It has been my observation at the hundreds of climbing areas I have visited that there has always been a reasonable selection of routes for climbers who are looking for well-protected, safe climbs.
Bruce
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 07:05pm PT
|
Weschrist is just playing the "Devils Advocate" I believe.
Brings up some deep thoughts and interesting dialog.
Jstan, you are true gentleman almost from a bygone era. I wish I could of talked to you while you were here.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 07:32pm PT
|
Werner:
You have serious responsibilities so your time was short. Ken willing, next year for sure.
Cheers,
|
|
BrentA
Gym climber
Las Vizzle, on the rizzle
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 08:01pm PT
|
Jello-
I too climbed just the first two pitches. If I remember right, it was a fun afternoon, just relaxed and upto it on that day. I'd looked at it for so long, it just seemed like to nice a line to be my demise.
As far as the merits of these types of lines it is up to the FIRST person to get there, imho. The rocks of the world are a canvas...you can turn them into whatever you want. I know Bob D. and have talked, listened and butted heads with him at times about what to do with this canvas.
What I have learned is there is no dictatin style to someone else. What I see as a possible spiritual send on rp's and bubblegum someone else might think looks like a nice warm up for the real routes. Defer to first ascentionist, defer to local ethic, don't be a jerk, try to keep our ego's out of it...and let what lingers below your feet stand as a testament to what kind of climber you were in that moment?
I love all these runout routes...not up for all of them, but sometimes I am...there are enuff grid bolted fluff pieces that a few of these stand as just a proud a gem...
I have established a small and humble list of FA's...but I hope that anyone that has climbed one has felt what I felt and appreciated the rock the way I did.
Alas not, one of my Black Canyon routes (shared with Jim Beyer) is already rapbolted in the name of freeclimbing. What a muthafuqn great day that was when I sent that pitch! Too bad noone else gets to feel that.
Love the proud routes!
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 08:08pm PT
|
Thanks for your take on things, Brent.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 08:09pm PT
|
My best FA's are the one that get climbed the most.
John S....long time no see. Hope you are well?
Later, Bob
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 08:35pm PT
|
My best FA's are the one that get climbed the most.
Not me. Some of my best FAs do get climbed a lot, but several of those have been retrobolted for convenience, not because they were hairy -- that's a shame, IMHO.
Some other FAs were too far from the road, I guess, and have rarely or never been repeated. I still think they're great though.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 09:39pm PT
|
I don't think Wes is just playing DA. He's convinced me that he is serious about retrobolting. Hence, he's here for approval or to merely test the waters or both.
IMO, the attitude you're pushing, Wes, is rooted in pure laziness and the lack of desire necessary to climb these terribly dangerous routes. And someone please shoot me down if I'm wrong, since when is the DNB not a popular hardman testpiece? We did this proud route in May 1983 with valued gear at that time; stoppers, hexes, and barely a set of Friends, and we had a great time up there. Sorry, but I wouldn't rob anyone of that fun by degrading the climbing. How can you place any value on run out routes if you haven't experienced them?
The problem with your position is that you are "murdering the impossible," to quote Messner. You have to understand that bolts directly diminish adventure and that adventure is valuable to the majority of climbers. It's what makes climbing so special. Contempt for history gets you nowhere youth and leads to a lot of mistakes.
Cheers,
Mimi
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 09:51pm PT
|
A ground up ascent where the FA deliberately sacrifices the ability to optimally design the route for future climbers is an ascent in very poor style.
If you would rather do silly Evel Knievel style stunts than climb, that's fine. But if you produce a f*#ked up route while doing it, you're kidding yourself if you really expect future climbers to leave it alone. Sorry.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 09:56pm PT
|
Are you saying that these FA people didn't know what they were doing?
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 09:59pm PT
|
You have to understand that bolts directly diminish adventure and that adventure is valuable to the majority of climbers.
The above sentence demonstrates a severe disconnect with the reality of modern climbing. Today's typical climber only boulders---probably mostly indoors. Adventure is rarely part of the equation.
It's what makes climbing so special.
There are two problems with this:
1) Climbing is not special. Quit deluding yourself. This is just a game---not a "lifestyle", a path to "spiritual enlightenment", or whatever other nonsense old tard climbers like to pretend.
2) Adventure is available from many sources beside climbing. Even if climbing were special, it couldn't be because of adventure.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 10:02pm PT
|
You cannot be serious! Not another budding narcissonihilist!
The relevance of your modern climber's argument is that boulderers would determine what goes on in the realm of roped climbing. Slight disconnect there. Incidentally, it doesn't take but a highball or a bad landing to turn bouldering into bigtime adventure.
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 10:03pm PT
|
Are you saying that these FA people didn't know what they were doing?
No. I'm saying that people who put up runout bolted routes (X-rated, cf. Hedge's post) and subsequently pretend they have the right to veto retros are selfish, and moreover that that sort of ascent is in very poor style.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 10:06pm PT
|
selfish?
Just like you ......
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 10:07pm PT
|
Didn't you read what Jello and others wrote above? Bolts are usually placed where appropriate on the sharp end and aren't all being stretched apart for kicks. Give me a break. Why can't you TR?
|
|
bringmedeath
climber
la la land
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 10:12pm PT
|
I just like to climb... even a 5.6 bolt ladder is still fun to me. I could still have fun on a bolted boulder problem.
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 10:30pm PT
|
The relevance of your modern climber's argument is that boulderers would determine what goes on in the realm of roped climbing.
What?
The relevance of my argument is to your claim that most climbers climb for adventure. The point is: this doesn't remotely appear to be the case---perhaps you are confused by a previous decade.
Incidentally, it doesn't take but a highball or a bad landing to turn bouldering into bigtime adventure.
What does that have to do with anything? How many highball problems with bad landings are in your gym?
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 10:36pm PT
|
Why can't you TR?
Why bolt anything at all? TR'ing is only sometimes an option. As routes get steep, traverse, or have inaccessible clifftops, TR'ing becomes less convenient, less safe, or impossible.
In the case of a runout (i.e. X-rated) slab that doesn't traverse and has a very conveniently accessible top, I'd agree there's never going to be a point to retroing it. (But there also wouldn't be much of a point to bolting it in the first place---assuming what you're interested in is actual rock climbing, not contrived stunts.)
|
|
ground_up
Trad climber
portland, or.
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 10:47pm PT
|
If a route is good and the FA was put up ground up , I walk away with respect for the people that put it up, problem is , alot of the rap bolted routes have bolts in wacky places plus, the FA'ist were sissys.....BTW , Ca. granite is way better than Smith Rock will ever be.....imho
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 10:51pm PT
|
frac, you missed the points also. Are you guys really so short on routes to do?
What makes you believe that moving over the rock confidently, in the absence of pro, is some kind of stunt or contrivance? Of course you can't TR some routes, but it is sometimes an option for people not keen on run outs.
I don't usually climb in a gym. They serve their purpose.
|
|
Tired Trad Tales
Trad climber
southern cal
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2006 - 10:53pm PT
|
Wow, 165 replies to this question/post is overwhelming! Of all of the comments I read, I most appreciated the recent one from the Warbler. Thanks.
Wed, 22 Nov, 2006
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 10:54pm PT
|
Ok ok I give up. Go ahead and retro bolt one of my routes. Do anything you want to it.
"Power Point" on higher Cathedral Rock
I dare ya .......
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 10:55pm PT
|
So what is your viewpoint, Tired Tales?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 11:04pm PT
|
Hahaha Kevin you're killing me .....
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 11:09pm PT
|
Better watch out Kevin, they'll be after Space Babble next.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 01:30am PT
|
Must've missed this, just read on Cummins' Bolts on El Cap thread that a bolt was placed above the crux mantle of the DNB. Who placed it and when? Why hasn't it been chopped?
This route was first put up in 1962 and freed in 1965. Folks have found that bolt unnecessary for over 40 years. Why now? With all these toys and fine rubber? Climbing has never been easier and yet it's just not easy enough for some people.
Back in the 1990s some fool added a bolt to the traverse on XM in Eldorado which was quickly chopped and hopefully has not reappeared. The thing was done free (roped solo) by Larry Dalke in hardsoled boots back in the 1960s. Another example of moronity.
Anyway, this is about the DNB. What up!
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 01:46am PT
|
Not even hardly wrinkled Kevin. You are correct sir, it sounded like an additional one above that.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 02:19am PT
|
It's all about respect Kevin. Hard to believe some of these kids are promoting doing this, and in some areas, getting away with it. No sense of history at all. Reading what Wes and fractured fairy tales wrote is downright spooky. To some poor souls, what was once inspiring has become oppressive. Truly sad.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 03:46am PT
|
"The above sentence demonstrates a severe disconnect with the reality of modern climbing. Today's typical climber only boulders---probably mostly indoors. Adventure is rarely part of the equation. "
So they (modern indoor boulderes) should dictate the style of a type of climbing irrelevent to them?
I hold modern climbers in higher esteem than that. They deserve better (routes) than the lowest uncommen denominator.
They deserve to know what it's about. We don't need to shied them.
|
|
Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Louis
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 09:48am PT
|
Great posts Warbler.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 10:17am PT
|
Mimi...you act like bolts have never been placed on established routes. For a good start...go look at EL-Cap. Aid or free routes!!!!
It's been happening since I started climbing (35 years ago).
|
|
landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 11:36am PT
|
Solo it,anything else is a compromise.Not this generation or the next but the future of climbing is its past(soloing). Those kids will think we were RX pussies.rg
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
|
No sense of history at all.
The history of rock climbing is hilarious. Fist fights over rap bolting? You old guys took this sh#t way too seriously.
Maybe if you could stop patting each other on the back for long enough, you'd notice that the rest of the world isn't particularly impressed by your "ascents". In the wider scheme of things, this stuff doesn't matter.
To some poor souls, what was once inspiring has become oppressive.
No, not oppressive, just a joke. Many of you guys were blinded by religious fervor---unthinking allegience to the nonsensical "ground up" dogma.
It's funny.
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 12:45pm PT
|
To dismiss adventure or disrespect it is to misunderstand climbing.
Climbing for adventure is fine---if you wish to do so, that's your prerogative. But if you think adventure is an essential part of climbing, then you don't understand climbing.
The game is different now: adventure is optional. Many prefer to focus on movement.
|
|
Duke
Social climber
PSP
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 12:57pm PT
|
What gym y'all climb in down there in Austin?
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 01:02pm PT
|
Frac: Clearly, the movement you describe with such fervor and delight is no more than a bowel movement. Your attitude is a joke and you give sportclimbing a bad name. Considering how rich the past is, if you're the future, things are looking rather dismal.
Bob, yes it's happened before but why support it? Why not stick your neck out here and take a stand. You've said how much you don't care, but I don't believe that. Specifically, are you in favor of adding bolts to the DNB? Yes or no? Have you ever chopped someone else's bolt? And if so, why?
Happy Thanksgiving!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 01:10pm PT
|
Hey?
Who you callin a punkass?
Hahahaha, Happy thanksgiving Kevin & Mimi
|
|
Wade Icey
Social climber
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 01:13pm PT
|
Mimi sez "Isn't the character of a route directly related to the amount of risk one faces on said route? "
wade sez "Isn't the character of a route directly related to the amount of character possesed by the first ascensionist?"
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 01:24pm PT
|
Wade, we're on the same page. There's more to a route than bolt count. The big looming question is whether a particular route is worth climbing.
I am of the opinion that bolts are usually placed by an FA where appropriate. If it's too run out for a given climber, they need to get better or find another route to do. The onus is on personal improvement or another goal. Like I wrote earlier, why does this have to be so oppressive? I am still shocked that these younger climbers have such lowly goals and aspirations. Might be due to a lack of inspiration based on a lack of historical knowledge. The mantle of history is a splendid thing, why not try it on rather than flippantly tossing it aside?
The road to accomplishment in climbing has never been easy, but it's always been straightforward; set goals and work toward them.
Happy Turkey Day, Werner and Merry! Hope it's a nice quiet day with lots of good food.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 02:45pm PT
|
Mimi..no, I have never chopped someone else bolts.
I have never chopped bolts that have been added to my FA's (trad or sport).
I have "stuck my neck out there"...I climbed 5.12 pre-1980 and also have done numerous big walls free and have run-it-out on r and x rated routes.
These were all personal choices. At one time (many years ago) I thought I knew how and why other should climb!
I changed my way of thinking!
This is a tired and worn-out dicussion...I been hearing it since I started climbing.
I have always respected the FA party efforts...so no...I don't approve of adding bolts to established routes.
This THREAD has some how drifted from the orginal post.
What happened to ground up climbing....it still out there and I still do it.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 03:18pm PT
|
Hedge- That was a good, clear, coherent non-insulting post. Although I disagree with your conclusion, I can see how you arrived at it. I personally was always happy that the B-Y existed, as a climb to really challenge me in an inward direction, if I ever decided to make the trip to the meadows to try it. It never occurred to me to hold John's greater skill against him when he established the climb, as something to excuse myself from having to build up my own abilities to be equal to the challenge. I doubt whether John was purposely making the climb extra run-out when he put it up on the lead - he probably stopped where he could to place the bolts. My vote, if somehow we could hold a referendum on the subject that included the whole climbing community, would be to leave it as it is.
Further to your point, I did do a number of runout routes that were pretty close to my limits, back when I was climbing. I can assure you that the idea of fame or one-upsmanship did not enter my mind on those climbs. It was simply a type of climbing experience that occasionally I enjoyed, and which gave deep internal rewards. I never placed a bolt from hooks, and never made unnecessary runouts. I also feel the routes were generally well-crafted. If they weren't, I never objected to the problem being fixed by another climber. This especially applied to those old 1/4" bolts we used to put our trust in.
I want to be clear that I'm not disparaging good sport routes established by necessity from the top down on crackless, overhanging rock. Although I never got into that kind of new-routing, I clipped a few and recognized their brilliance (in the case of those that were brilliant). In fact a little sport climbing training helped me to realize a dream to do a big wall free climb in the Himalaya, on Nameless Tower with Catherine Destivelle.
I would like to ask you respectfully to consider leaving the R and X-rated climbs alone. As an enticement, I will invite you (and your compadres like Wes, etc) to northern Utah, where I serve as director of a small non-profit group called Ogden Climbing Parks. We are working to work trails and access issues out in advance of openning up a number of basically untouched climbing areas, both trad and sport (limestone). The mayor of Ogden has agreed to supply drilling and bolting gear for the sport climbing crags (mostly limestone). The first of these areas will probably be openned next spring. Interested? Bob D, you can cme, too!
I'm off to eat...Happy Thanksgiving!
|
|
landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 03:23pm PT
|
Exactly Warbler, it's the best because it's the B-Y route.Why, because the scary ones are always the best.I ask myself "do you feel lucky today"???? If you haven't drilled into rock you will never understand why & where bolts are placed.rg
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 03:46pm PT
|
Fracture- Obviously you don't think adventure is an essential part of climbing. I never said I thought it was, only that climbing's history is rooted in it. If you don't see that, your climbing experience is severely limited.
Well, of course the history is rooted in it. That isn't something to "see" or not, it's a simple fact.
But the game is different now. (And much improved.)
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 03:54pm PT
|
People who have been climbing for a month in gyms claim to climb hugely better than me.
I hate to be the one to break it to you: they do.
|
|
landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 04:06pm PT
|
I climbed some of Bob D's stuff last weekend at Penetinte canyon & still think it was put up in good style.Those guys siege bolted that area for 5yrs & it's almost the same style from one end of the canyon to the other.I'm glad they did it before some rock gym yahoo screwed it up.Most cracks were done free solo & left boltless.rg
I think we have been Trolled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 04:38pm PT
|
Author:
fracture
Sport climber
From: Austin, TX A ground up ascent where the FA deliberately sacrifices the ability to optimally design the route for future climbers is an ascent in very poor style.
If you would rather do silly Evel Knievel style stunts than climb, that's fine. But if you produce a f*#ked up route while doing it, you're kidding yourself if you really expect future climbers to leave it alone. Sorry."""
You guys realize that you are wasting your time with a gutless punk-wank cluesless gym climber c#m sporto moron from rc.com, right?
LOL. Suma C#m Laude. Just checking to see if it really thinks C#m is a bad word. Latin for with, not very seuxal after all, I must say.
|
|
Duke
Social climber
PSP
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 04:42pm PT
|
This thread is way runout.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 05:13pm PT
|
Easy question.
Anyone who can do the route as it was originally done has the "right" to do so.
Nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to climb anything.
whatever happend to doing a route when you wre ready, as oppsed to dragging a route down to some suitable level?
And again, Do your own routes however you want.
|
|
Wade Icey
Social climber
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 05:24pm PT
|
Hey Joe, Happy Tday. Hope you're well.
Jack may have taken the BY away from we mortals but he left a whole bunch of stone to left and right. The Hedge/Icey awaits.
No shortage of occasions to rise to, Eh?
cheers
Wade
|
|
immanti
climber
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2006 - 10:39pm PT
|
fracture, you say "climbing is not special", it's "just a game".
Uh, maybe some climbing styles are just a game.
But there is a whole different "game" out there.
Climbing changes you, it is no sport, no game, no hobby. It changes who you are like no other discipline, not even martial arts go as far.
For those who only monkey around in a gym, it might seem like just a game, and that would be correct, because THAT IS a game.
But to go out and put yourself in an unpredictable situation that tests your abilities and mental temper to the limit AND walk away because your mind held steady and your body did the work is sublime, way, way beyond a sport or game. Then again, I'm pretty sure that's not what you're doing.
I'll leave you with a quote from the foreword to one of my favorite climbing books, Gary Arce's "Defying Gravity" and which Mr. Royal Robbins credited originally to James Ullman. I think it comes close to capturing the jist of why people choose adventure climbing (with all it implies):
"For it is the ultimate wisdom of the mountains that a man is never more a man than when he is striving for what is beyond his grasp, and that there is no conquest worth the winning save that over his own weakness and ignorance and fear."
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 12:30am PT
|
Folks bolt their first ascents for a number of different reasons
1. It's their art. They build the route they want.
2. They don't have the money for a lot of bolts, or they do.
3. They want to climb the route fast, or in a day, rather than take the time to make a route for other climbers.
4. They are climbing way below their ability or at their max.
In any case, the whole "respect the first ascent party's intentions and ask permission" is half-way reasonable now because so many first ascenders are still around. We'll all doomed though and nobody really knows what your intentions are. Folks are being raised in Gyms and Sport climbing and god knows if they'll respect anything 60 years from now.
I came up with an idea awhile back for first ascenders to catalog their opinions on ethics and what went into their first ascents so the next generation would have a reference and a means of education. We all climb for different reasons.
Nothing became of it but if anybody wants to run with it, have at it.
You can read the discussion about it here
http://tinyurl.com/ygeymz
and a supertopo link here
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=20192&msg=20294
which turned into this
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=20494&msg=20554
Thanks to rockclimbing.com new site design, the links within the first link don't work anymore.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 02:07am PT
|
Thanks. I really think the best solution is to create a framework for a self-organizing system. If we could bug Rockclimbing.com a bit more to implement it, then the first ascenders could input their own info and folks like Kenny wouldn't have to give up all thier free time. Kinda like a Wikipedia for first ascents.
Of course, some folks like big projects. Folks who like history and hob-nobbing with the pioneers might really dig it.
Peace
Karl
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 09:13am PT
|
What Ken is doing is far far more important to us than assembling route histories. Indeed “routes”, as we call them, are becoming less important with each passing day. Climbing areas now have thousands of “routes” with many guides giving data only on “selected routes”. As they get more closely packed together we will end up doing random portions of three or more “routes” and caring nothing about the history of any of them. We have six billion people now and in just fifty years we will have nine billion. Wake up guys. Whymper is dead and gone.
The past is no guide to the future. We are going through a phase change.
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 10:45am PT
|
Climbing changes you, it is no sport, no game, no hobby. It changes who you are like no other discipline, not even martial arts go as far.
You're funny.
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 10:57am PT
|
Folks are being raised in Gyms and Sport climbing and god knows if they'll respect anything 60 years from now.
I expect that they won't know or care much about climbing's history. This is already happening. Many of the young climbers I know (including kids climbing harder than most of you old folks ever did or ever will) don't realize that hangdogging or rap-bolting were ever controversial, and they honestly don't really care.
And I don't particularly blame them. The history of this sport is pretty entertaining (pure comedy), but it's a lot more fun to go climb a rock.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 11:38am PT
|
I think the "generation gap" in general is smaller than it was when I was a kid. There is a helping of respect for the old school, climbing or not.
Still, it's not going to be blind obediance and nothing can take place without a communication medium from the past to future. Whoever builds the framework for the pioneers and first ascenders to pass down their thoughts, opinions and history will be doing climbing a big service and doing something fairly unique in the history of sports. Sorry I'm too lazy.
Of course, many of the Supertopo postings and trip reports serve some of those functions but something that could eventually cover any route, area, or part of the world would be ideal
peace
Karl
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 09:14pm PT
|
Hey Locker....I respect YOU! Face it, man, we are old and in the way. The kids are right, there is no value to anything that's been done before, and they could climb circles around Bachar because they've found a better way of doing it. A gym is all it takes to be good, along with grid-bolted overhanging jug hauls. Placing pro or running it out if there is no pro is for people who just don't get the superiority of pure gymnastic movement. Look at the idiot below, Malcolm Daly, wearing stupid lycra tights as he sets about creating a vacuum on the cliff (first ascent of New Music, 1986) How dumb can you get? Hell, it's all just a stupid game, anyway...means absolutely nothing...screw you if you think it does...you're just stupid like all the other stupid old stupid idiot so-called climbers who put up dangerous routes only for stupid egotistical self-glorification. You're just stupid!
-HyperCoolNewAgeJelloKnowItAll, or simply: FracturedJello
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 10:12pm PT
|
Jeff...
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 10:23pm PT
|
Hi Bob-
Haven't you already noticed, the more things change, the more they stay the same?
As you've pointed out, we've heard all the opinions a thousand times before. I had hoped we had moved on to a place of better balance, where people climb in their own styles and respect or at least don't mess with the style of others, making for an overall healthier and vital scene.
Cheers,
Jeff
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 10:27pm PT
|
I think the better ones (of this generation, Tommy Caldwell...etc) do have respect.
Most people who ascend to a higher level...know who shoulders they are standing on.
Hope all is well, Later, Bob
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 10:30pm PT
|
Bob- BINGO!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 10:48pm PT
|
See .....
I told you you care, Bob D. And I wasn't being negative Bob. I ment it in a positive way.
Just so you know ........
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 11:12pm PT
|
I think you have to be a complete idiot to walk pass " Perilous Journey" and not have respect for what Dave Breashears did when he climbed that route.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 11:40pm PT
|
So Bob, does this mean that when it comes to this route, you're personally ready to chop one for Dave if a futuristic utility bolt shows up?
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 11:45pm PT
|
Mimi...there would be a line of climbers willing to do it.
How that's for sticking my neck out.
LOL
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 11:50pm PT
|
Ha! There's hope!
The question then becomes, why some and not others? I know Dave's kinda cute and I'd chop one for him too, but the sad lonely little 5.7 in the City of Rocks cries out, "Ain't I a free climb?" It needs your support too.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2006 - 11:53pm PT
|
Mimi wrote: The question then becomes, why some and not others?
Some things are worth going to war for...other are not.
Mimi wrote: Ha! There's hope!
As long as you are taking in air...there is hope!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2006 - 12:04am PT
|
World war 3 will start because of "bolt"?
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2006 - 12:09am PT
|
Werner wrote: World war 3 will start because of "bolt"?
No Werner...it will start because of a "dolt"...GWB!
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2006 - 12:14am PT
|
Not just any dolt, but a futuristic utililty dolt. He could come from a small gym in Texas. Raised too far from the huecos...it's inevitible.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2006 - 12:19am PT
|
Perhaps a good jolt will make the dolt bolt. If not, perhaps the dolt will just molt.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 27, 2006 - 02:26am PT
|
fracture (sorry for bringing this thread up again everyone),
questions for ya,
you seem to think that us old farts suck,
that our generation didnt contribute to the success of modern climbers,
that we didnt climb hard stuff,
that we had nothing to do with helping the sport along,
oh please great one, if you are so advanced please share with us who you are and what you have done for climbing so that we can pay homage...
edit
you fecktard.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 27, 2006 - 11:42pm PT
|
perhaps your diatribe against old climbers who once strived for minimum impacts are a reflection for your own internal weaknesses.
it is such a pity when one cannot see what is in the mirror...
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 12:42am PT
|
If one does climbs which require artificial protection, one is bound sooner or later, to encounter very unfortunate situations. People, and that includes those who “make routes”, can be wrong and can even have possibly destructive agendas.
The great attraction of routes which use only naturally occurring protection is that one is free of such human interference. The problem was created eons ago and when you face it the question is simply, “Are you good enough to do it now, or should you come back later when you have gotten better?” Phrased in this way, even defeat is leavened with promise of better things to come.
IMO,
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 12:58am PT
|
The Agony and the Ecstasy
Quote: "In this material world everyone needs some-thing to look forward to because generally no one is satisfied with his present condition."
"They are hoping that in the future, in some other situation or with some other person, they will experience happiness."
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:11am PT
|
DB, I hear what you say. And I wish you were right.
But the gymspawn and their tiny metal slaves are always a threat.
Beware the futuristic utility bolt.
To quote YC and Frost (1972), "Mad bolters are among the worst offenders of the alpine environment. Young climbers must learn that bolting is done as a substitute for climbing. Guides, climbing schools and established climbers have a heavy responsibility here."
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:13am PT
|
nothing like a stick in your a*# to straighten one out.
jstan, you state the obvious in a much more diplomatic way than i can, thats good.
many of the runout routes that present day climbers bitch about were put up under a "minimum impact" to the environment ethic. reducing the number of bolts and leaving the rock in as natural state as possible. the thought was to provide as natural experience as possible for the next person and the next generation. climbing the rock and not using lots of bolts because we all knew that killed some of the adventure aspects of climbing.
apparently, a few of the younger generation prefers that we would have just bolted the sh#t out of things for them. so those pioneers that hung their ass out in the pursuit of some ideal were really sanctimonious as#@&%es showing off.
then of course there is fracture, who didnt need all the advances of sticky rubber, training regimens, plastic holds, sport climbing and all the modern day gear evolutions. he is just better and would have been climbing 5.13 50 years ago. or at least that is what he comes across as saying.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:38am PT
|
I'll remember than the next time I stuff a hunk of machined metal into a pin scar whilst listening to the sounds of garbage trucks and Japanese tourists.
its a shame that you have to climb in such a place. have you tried golf?
edit
dimitri, i dont worry about it. although i have had some ask about placing rapp bolts for convenience on some routes that i did that had nothing added to them in a beautiful place with very few tourists, and only the occaisional garbage truck 1/4 mile away. there were natural anchors and rapp bolts 15 feet away but apparently, that was too inconvenient.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:47am PT
|
WB:
I would be the last to contest anything in a great work of literature. But perhaps this text is describing what is, and not what might be. Wanting what you have got is clearly one way to be happy.
I have to ask a question though. Is not happiness just a preference? If you knew your life were fixed and unchangeable for the next thirty years, which would you prefer? To spend that time in a happy frame of mind, or an unhappy frame of mind? Choose. Everyone who thinks about it a little, would be happy, if it is just a choice.
I am positive all of this was exhaustively treated by the Greeks in 400BC. What a time that must have been. If only I could still remember what it was like.
Cheers,
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:51am PT
|
jstan, i guess you really are older than me...i was just recalling trappin' beaver on the siskadee....
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:59am PT
|
Weschrist
I truly think you have it backwards, the rules are not laid out by old guys/farts etc. but by nature itself. If we do not heed to her rules then we will fall even if we artificially try to protect ourselves.
Not an easy thing to understand. But go ahead and make your own schism, you will fall and get hurt for sure.
jstan, how can one be happy, when one will die.
If you understand beyond this body then you have a real chance at real happiness.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:05am PT
|
Weschrist: "...poorly equipped route."
Def: e·quip (-kwp) tr.v. e·quipped, e·quip·ping, e·quips
adj 1: provided or fitted out with what is necessary or useful or appropriate; "a well equipped playground"; "a ship equipped with every mechanical aid to navigation" [syn: equipt] [ant: unequipped] 2: provided with whatever is necessary for a purpose (as furniture or equipment or authority); "a furnished apartment"; "a completely furnished toolbox" [syn: furnished] [ant: unfurnished]
Definition #1 above:
("a well equipped playground"; "a ship equipped with every mechanical aid to navigation")
would seem to be the most relevant to the ideas I hear Weschrist espousing. A big difference between climbing prior to sport climbing and after it is those early years by and large required you take sole responsibility for your safety in order to climb. That instantly sorted out those seeking risk-free entertainment with the appearance of real risk from those who were prepared to climb. Prior to sport climbing those seeking risk-free entertainment probably amounted to no more than 10-15% of the total and they never lasted long.
That demographic has now been turned on its head; fully 80-85% of today's climbers wouldn't be tomorrow if bolts evaporated tonight. Gyms have become commercial engines producing a relentless annual tidal flow of 'climbers' seeking what is essentially the latest in risk-free, suburban, pop entertainment. And, after twenty years of climbers learning to climb in gyms, the original idea of gyms providing a fairly decent emulation of outdoor climbing has also been turned on its head. Today the expectation is exactly the opposite - the vast majority of today's 'climbers' are simply looking for a good outdoor emulation of their indoor climbing experiences.
And there is no shortage of economic or ego driven motives for servicing this majority demographic. A clever Google Earth video illustrating the growth bolts around the world over the past thirty years would be indistinquishable from the growth of a bacteria swabbed on a sterile petri dish. Don't kid yourself, 'climbing' today is just another risk-free, social entertainment option for the vast majority of climbers. That may be fine to you; but me, I'd personally just as soon see the whole sport collapse back to a level of about a 1/3 of today's numbers the way windsurfing did in the late '80s . Unfortunately, that's not likely to happen with gyms anchoring the industry.
Bottomline, the reason lots of old routes are run out or otherwise objectively dangerous is because they were put up by climbers looking for more than to simply entertain themselves. Commoditize those old routes under the guise of 'community service' if you will, but your contribution will have more in common with the demolition of a fine Craftsman bungalow to make way for a Taco Bell than any true service to climbers.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:23am PT
|
You have all the answers apparently, you must now begin your schism. Report back after three lifetimes.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:28am PT
|
Remember that old saying WB. Youth is wasted on the young.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:45am PT
|
Both the new and the old generation are Rad
Both the new and the old generation are lame and have limited vision.
Cause humans are humans.
Once you get beyond your youth, there's always something wrong with the youth.
Even the "purest" generation (free climbers who followed the aid generation) came under fire for using topos, chalk, cams, bolts on face climbs, and a host of other things.
The new guys clip bolts, but also solo 5.15 over lengthy drops into oceans.
The old guys did put up run-out face climbs that were bold adventures, but they were climbing well below their real limits, and often made their creations with a dangerous challenge to the elite in mind, rather than the welfare of the general climbing community climbing at that grade.
The fact is, we climbers, individually decide how much risk and adventure we want and we go that far, and if we go farther, it's by accident. Folks die just like they always have. Folks have epics just like they always have.
If there were 4-6 bolts per pitch on Space Babble, it wouldn't be such a testament, but a lot more adrenaline would have been released on those fine moves over the years, not less. That's just the way things happened.
But I neither glamourize nor degrade the choices earlier generations made. Those choices were sometimes made to favor adventure and boldness, but just as often they were made to save money and time, and to conform to competitive peer pressure that competed on boldness instead of increased difficulty. Now the emphasis of peer pressure has merely shifted to difficulty.
Some folks have pioneered the changes and been called to task for it. Some were later vidicated and embraced, others have a mixed legacy, at least for now.
Not agreeing nor disagreeing with the perspective, I thought I'd post an excerpt from an Email Todd Skinner wrote me during a controversy over adding bolts to Wet Denim Daydream to make freeclimbing it at 5.13 possible. Food for thought:
"One interesting point that hasn't been brought up is that I talked
extensively to Angus Thurmer about adding bolts to WDD and he had no
problem with it. He pointed out that if the bolts were far enough from
the corner, there would be two routes: WDD using aid and not reaching out
to clip the bolts, and WLN clipping the bolts while free climbing. I just
called him and he was 100% against chopping the bolts, stating that it was
an intellectual problem, not an ethical one.
One reason I haven't brought this up is that I have never considered the
first-ascentionists to be the owners of the route, and this includes me
and routes I have put up. The future climbers inherit each route before
the chalk dust settles and our allegiance must always be to them. If Alex
Huber really did create a crimp on the last section of the headwall of the
Salathe as I have been told, the climbers to come are affected- not the
climbers that have already passed.
Angus asked how climbers could clip
the bolts while aid climbing and think they have done WDD. He likened it
to using a long cheater stick, which is also a personal choice. He
stressed personal choice again and again, which I agreed with completely,
and bemoaned the "sheriffs" that have always appointed themselves the
interpreters of fixed rules in a dynamic, evolving sport.
Another reason that I haven't brought up my discussions with Angus is that
this situation must stand on its own. What if it was one of Harding's
routes? Do we leave it exactly like he did, in a "mausoleum mind-set"?
Who could seriously argue that he was against bolts? Again, reverence for
the past, allegiance to the future.
Also, there are fanatics on both sides. I got an e-mail from someone who
I have never met and has never done a wall who paraphrased the Zen saying,
"Chop 100 bolts, put in 101". Sounds like nobody "wins" ,but for sure the
rock loses- and, by extension, so do we all.
Stay hungry- Todd Skinner"
Peace
Karl
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:50am PT
|
Wes- you might have more success with us old folks if you'd quit calling us names. We might be a little sensitive about our delicate "condition". Your logic isn't too bad (although logic is not the only criteria in climbing matters), but you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. If you want to go route-by-route and have some sort of representative community body decide the fate of each route, that would be fine, so long as the governing body included a large number of climbers from all perspectives; those climbers have all led the route in question (so they can relate to the qualities of experience promoted by the climb in its' runout condition); and a super-majority vote was required to implement any changes. Just my opinion. It is an offer in compromise...
-OldJello (but I still wiggle when I'm poked)
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:58am PT
|
Reasonable discussion? Try again. It's rather disagreeable to have a discussion with someone who so openly has his head up his a$$.
Let's sharpen this up. Enough whining about a lack of direction. You want to set routes up for mass consumption based on some criteria. What's it going to be, brainiac?
Is it bolt spacing after a quality review of the route using a meter stick? Futuristic utility bolt marshalls (complete with stainless steel stars) that are able to draw and shoot wherever and whenever necessary? Or is it a posse of marshalls that decides and can they ride from area to area far from their plastic ranches?
Based on your position thus far, the first routes declared stupid and worthy of being utility bolted are by necessity, the ones with the best climbing. The issue is entirely one of popularity to you. The problem is that those four star run out face climbs are exactly the ones that need to stay that way. As shown by the abundant qualified testimony on this thread, the quality of experience and freedom of movement provided by bold climbs is invaluable to many climbers.
Sorry, but if you refuse to acknowledge the value of this type of climbing, you're in a poor position to be promoting the alteration of historic climbs.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:59am PT
|
"equip - provided or fitted out with what is necessary or useful or appropriate"
Weschrist: Necessary, useful, or appropriate... all open to interpretation.
Weschrist - you're right, it is all open to interpretation. Where our interpretations obviously differ is that most of us old folk believed some routes often needed to be heavily 'equipped' with hard to come by internal resources rather than easily acquired external ones. And some of us old folk are still putting up routes with that same style and approach.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 03:02am PT
|
so weschrist,
what is your point? what do you want? you dont need anyones acceptance, do you? surely if you dont want WB's, jstans, jello's etc etc, then what is it that you are looking for here?
add some bolts, remove some bolts.
someone wont like what you did and may do the same.
the thing i have been wondering when climbers bring up views like yours is who decides on the number of bolts on a route? is it anarchy? must we convene a rock committee to decide? who decides who is on the committee? perhaps we model it after our own system of government, surely climbers won't be "political" about who gets to place bolts and who does not.
i am open to embracing a way that protects adventure and protects the rock. your argument seems to be that some climbers may die on runout routes. i maintain that they will find a waqy to die regardless of how runout a route is. please show data if this is your conclusion but i dont see it.
in my opinion the FA is not sancrosanct. but IMO it is not acceptable to add bolts where others have climbed without. simple really. must all climbing become steralized with safety bolts to satisfy the masses? if this is the case dont call it rock climbing. perhaps rock gymnastics or xtreme climbing would fit the mindset and provide that positive feeling needed to make one feel like they are dong something really cool.
i have nothing against sport climbing. but i do have an interest in maintaining what is left of what simply was called rock climbing.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:42pm PT
|
Weschrist: "...I never said anything about mass consumption, only wasted void of rock... "
Your wording throughout this thread alone belies exactly that - mass consumption - what else could one possibly infer from "wasted void of rock"? Wasted? Void of rock? Surely there must be a consumption-related demand and product availability problem if such routes suddenly require updated [pro] formulations, [beta] packaging, and POS (Positive Outcome Sales) displays.
Again, I'm an old, misanthropic bastard and the 80% of today's 'climbers' who feel ever more risk-free, pre-established routes are simply a god-given consumer entitlement bordering on a birthright could simply disappear tomorrow. If they did simply vanish the number of climbers today would likely be the same as a percentage of the population as it was in the '70s versus the exponential gain we have that is driven solely by gyms, risk-free sport climbing, and commercialization.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 03:20pm PT
|
weschrist: "I find it funny to watch people like Mimi twist over their own false interpretations of what I am saying. I like to watch people's bias come out and confront them."
so you're saying you're a troll...
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 04:44pm PT
|
Well I'll be darned. A dunk! Never have seen that before.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 08:05pm PT
|
Wes, trolling for bias is as disingenuous and moronic as it gets. Why not be man enough to present your ideas and offer solutions without being so immature about it? You have yet to present a consistent position. Save the route, don't preserve the route, blah-blah-blah. You need to get past the FA ownership concept and realize that the community still climbs that way as shown in this thread. You yield to the concept of community but can't get over yourself.
How many years of climbing experience do you have to really contribute to this discussion? Several people on this thread genuinely tried to carry on this debate with you despite your foolish posturing and attitude. Provoking a response out of your elders is pure panty waste BS. Pardon me if I invoke a response out of you.
You're still avoiding most of the questions posed about your futuristic idea to "fix" the inconsiderate past. Where do you draw the line? Let's see your hit list. Why is the B-Y safe? Aren't run out routes solely for ego purposes, whether they're recognized or not, stupid?
You continue to spout about FA's owning the rock. What gives a hoard of inexperienced little pukes like you and frac the right to inflict your mediocrity and lack of committment on our shared resource and legacy?
From everything you've said, you're a made-to-order sportclimber. Why not simply settle into that nice warm and fuzzy corner of alpinism and leave the bold climbs for bold climbers? Climbing really should be enjoyed, not dreaded. But not when it comes to your sorry ass. As Jello and others have said many times, not every climb is for every climber.
You're the one whining on and on about how terribly miserable and scary this traditional climbing can be. Since you obviously can't handle routes done decades ago, maybe you should stick to the plastic arena where you and your pals can play climb and pretend you're on a bold runout. Too bad most gyms aren't tall enough to provide a real experience. At least you can still dream. Kinda like some feeble old person, eh?
Once again, climbing has never been easier or more secure than it is right now. Why do you have to lower the bar even further to make a place for yourself?
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 09:05pm PT
|
The very very few times this person has had any success it came when he stopped trying to explain what he thought and tried to understand from whence others were coming. It is alright to point out realities. In an earlier post I said when you accept the idea of using other people’s artificial protection in your climbing, you necessarily expose yourself to their idiosyncracies and agendas. This is just a given. When there is a problem you state the problem and let each person search for an answer – on their own. When the heat is too high you point out how big and beautiful is the larger context.
So I would direct those interested to a person I think is a giant. Once there read the matter of fact description of the John Muir Trail and of the Barkley. When truly captured read about the BadWater. When done do your own searching and find the young lady who did the BadWater and outran everyone by two full hours; men, women, mutants, everyone.
Incredibly exciting
http://fjwsys.lanl.gov/bpw/running.html
|
|
atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 09:29pm PT
|
jstan, thanks for posting the links. The John Muir Trail? Incredible, truly a giant...
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 09:57pm PT
|
...The past is no guide to the future. We are going through a phase change...
John,
From liquid to vapor, I hope. What a gas!!!
Curt
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 09:57pm PT
|
Wow Wes! You're an old dad yourself. Never would have guessed it from your peevish posts. Considering your age and experience, it remains puzzling why you have this sense of entitlement and resentment for history.
You say you don't support mass consumption, but what else could it be at your skill level? You seem to be seeking permission to fine tune climbs. What's stopping you? Do you acknowledge that climbs lose character when more fixed protection is added? Or do they gain something in your mind beyond greater ease of access?
The low impact ethic that came out of the clean climbing movement from the early 1970s was created and supported by the community at large for reasons that are still valid and current. Bolts are eyesores. Keeping them to a minimum is good for everybody, not just climbers.
If you want to do these climbs and your head is shakey, that's entirely your problem, not the FA team's and certainly not the rest of the community.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 10:28pm PT
|
Weschrist: "I think it is something that should be defined by the community..."
Well, given eighty percent of 'the community' are those same highly risk-averse, entertainment-seeking 'climbers' (and of course their enabling community service reps and developers), I'd personally prefer to see such decisions in the hands of conservative private and public land managers before seeing this crew "managing" our crags. In fact, at this point, I'd go so far as to say if I were a lawyer I be lobbying for explicit 'Trad Preserve' set asides on public lands that specifically prohibited non-anchor fixed pro or fixed pro entirely - even if that meant sacrificing a lot of good routes.
Weschrist: "But some of it is just sh#t and would give plenty of people brilliant experiences if they didn't have to risk life and limb to try it."
This is clearly the real heart of your endless thumping - why not simply come out and say it - 'I think climbing should be safe'? Why all the trappings of indignation and generational entitlement? Just own what is clearly the heart and soul of your argument. And note I'm not putting words in your mouth; they are your words again and again. You just keep choosing phrases that dance around a meaning which is impossible to conceal. It's an entirely disingenuious argument when the true theme and intent keeps beaming through your words regardless. Just spit it out and own it for god's sake - I completely disagree, but it's ok to simply speak your mind.
And the relevant question of experience would be how many FA's have you done and what was the split between ground-up trad and rap bolted sport?
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 11:55pm PT
|
wes said, You know, when someone comes to an area, which happens to have been put up 20 years ago, and really wants to experience climbing in a beautiful place, only to get shut down because someone with bigger balls (or no kid, both legs, more talent, whatever) happened to climb that chunk of rock before them.
more talent? yeah, god forbid someone may have to work at something, spend some time at it to master it before getting their form of "satisfaction". face it, its not about balls it is about TALENT. a part of moving over stone is the ability to know when it is dangerous and to know better than setting out on something you could risk failure on when that failure involves broken bones or death.
there are climbers on here who know an awful lot more than i do about that, but that is an inherent risk. that risk is dealt with by having the confidence in your skills to climb something safely. what you are saying is f&&& that, let everyone play in the game. the progression of that is obviously to then chip it down to ones technical level. WTF gives you the right to bring something down to your level? if that is ok, then why cant i chip a few holds in it to bring it down to mine. afterall, i am getting older and i can use all the good holds i can muster.
But some of it is just sh#t and would give plenty of people brilliant experiences if they didn't have to risk life and limb to try it.
managing risk is key in climbing. everytime we start up any route there is some risk that we manage. in the old days i tended to manage it by climbing within my abilities. the new wave is to climb outside of them. its all great and i enjoy sport climbing too. but when you have to manage the risk based upon addressing dangerous consequences it becomes a deeper, heavier game. i still dont know why we dont simply manage the risk on mt everest better. say drill the camps inside the mountain, stock the camps with plenty of O2. doesnt sound good does it. unfortunately it is the same logic you are applying to a slightly bigger objective.
the great thing about climbing is that i dont have no stinkin committee tellin me how far apart the bolts are gonna be, whether i need my helmet or whether i can free solo something. now with your ideas it seems like thats what we can look forward to. i suggest you call it something other than rock climbing because it is not to be confused with the sport that interested me and the one that i spent many years reaching my mediocre peak of mastery.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 12:37am PT
|
I guess what I really don't understand Wes is that this post goes on and on, you are gouding it for some reason.
At some point in your climbing career you have to either accept what is or change it. If there are areas where really eggregious routes were put up then you can go and improve the situation. Sure the FA team might wail, but if you have a better vision and the climbing community recognizes it in some manner, than you just made things better.
If you ask me "Hey Ed, can I put a line up through your line? I think your route is lame" I'm probably not going to have a positive reaction. Demanding that I conceed that you are right isn't going to get us closer to a resolution. If you go out and do it, we might escalate the hostilities by chopping, etc... back and forth until one of our visions persists.
For me, I'd probably just say "whatever, that was my experience and I don't care what happens to the route." Most of the routes are probably not worth going to war over. But there are a few routes which are considered outstanding. You say you are not talking about those routes, but there is really no way to tell what is fashionable and what is not, and of course it all changes with time. Todays horror might be tomorrows test piece. Who knows?
As I said 100 posts or so above, you aren't going to get approval... but then again, no one is stopping you. Go lay your ideas out there to be judged by the climbing community. If there is something worthwhile there, it will be acknowledeged. That is the way it works... that is the only way it works, thankfully.
|
|
Anastasia
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:25am PT
|
I think "ground up" makes better climbers.
Those that don't "ground up" perfect sequences for "one climb" and never really "learn" to climb. It is makes the feat into an exercise routine.
------------
As for changing/modernizing a route...
I think we lose our chances of getting better when we change difficult climbs in the name of "safety."
If you can't do the route in the original format, you shouldn't do it.
Climbing is one big incredible challenge, it should not be safe. It also should not be changed for any reason except just to replace a rusty bolt. If we change routes, we remove a chance to compete with the original team. We remove the history which we can build upon to make us stronger.
To clarify my point, let me quote from Isaac Newton...
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
(If we remove our giants, how far could we see?)
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:37am PT
|
The modern climber quiz:
People could have brilliant experiences if they didn't have to:"
a) Develop those pasky technical skills
b) Have to use such annoyingly small and difficult holds
c) Climb without protection within easy reach on each move
d) Operate both sphincters in concert at the same time
e) All of the above...
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:44am PT
|
You are correct sir! E it is!
Anastasia, thanks for the bare bones old school breakdown.
The hits keep coming guys. Joe, Ed, and Hawk are right on. You've clipped the bolt of truth.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:49am PT
|
We are all nagivating our larger general culture, whether we like it or not, and there are consequences to how we choose to fit in or not.
Climbing is a subculture and within it, many smaller cultures defined by the style of climbing or prevailing local ethics.
Even though we can make general statements of something like the character of something like Yosemite Climbing ethics and culture and how it has evolved, on a more specific level, it gets a lot more complicated, subtle and nuanced.
Quite a few routes have been changed in Yosemite. Maybe with FA approval, and many not. Some have been chopped, even FA routes have been chopped. Some restored. Some retrobolts remain and there are a whole ecosystem of reason why folks are offended, complacent, or oblivious.
Sometimes it depends on who did the FA and who made the changes.
Sometimes it depends on if folks care about the route or not.
Sometimes it depends who how big a pain in the butt it would be to do something about it.
Who knows, sometimes it's a gut feeling.
Take the Nose for instance. Certainly a route that represents Yosemite in general and folks do care about it. It ain't some obscure thing.
Belay bolts were added. Only Taliban types care much cause the route gets tons of traffic, many rescues, and fixed pins and such are more temporary and damage the rock with repeated replacement.
Freeclimbing bolts were added and holds chipped. The Chipped holds are notorious but nobody really knows who to fix that. Freeclimbing bolts are pretty controversial but were probably placed by folks who the community respects so they have remained.
Chicken bolts have been added. God knows why nobody has chopped the bolt behind Texas Flake. Perhaps it's a pain to chop cause it's a hammerless route that folks need to go fast on, or maybe folks have sympathy for the poor average EL Cap climber from country A-Z without much chimney experience who has to do a big giant leadout on an otherwise pretty safe route otherwise. Just speculating there.
Maybe this additional bolting has been tolerated because it's El Cap and aid climbing is somewhat more tolerant of bolting than pure freeclimbing. Ya got me.
Just food for thought.
Another thought. That while Wes might have stimulated some discussion, when folks are dealing with closely held and emotional subjects like this, a more productive discussion might come from a more measured give and take of ideas exploring the potential for consensus and understanding.
Peace
Karl
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 02:27am PT
|
I've mentioned before the fact that surfers overall respect and revere their elders' accomplishments. That's because every surfer coming up had to summon up the exact same goods and skills as their parents and grandparents to surf the same breaks. They also still have that respect because you can't 'bolt' waves in any fashion.
The recent development of tow-in surfing developed for big waves will no doubt now be used on far smaller waves so folks can have 'brilliant experiences' without suffering the challenges and risks of actually getting out and catching a wave themselves or getting themselves out of harms way after a dive. That pretty much creates trad and sport surfing. Still, the waves themselves and many of the risks associated with surfing them will remain unchanged. Every ride is a new and unique wave and in some ways it's too bad rock can't similarly cleanse and replinish itself after every climb.
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 09:45am PT
|
then of course there is fracture, who didnt need all the advances of sticky rubber, training regimens, plastic holds, sport climbing and all the modern day gear evolutions. he is just better and would have been climbing 5.13 50 years ago. or at least that is what he comes across as saying.
5.13 was first climbed (by John Gill) about 50 years ago.
Of course I'm no John Gill. (But I suspect you're one of those who like to pretend that 5.13 didn't come along until the late 70's.)
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 09:47am PT
|
That demographic has now been turned on its head; fully 80-85% of today's climbers wouldn't be tomorrow if bolts evaporated tonight.
Right. (Mimi, read that. "Adventure" is not a primary reason people climb, anymore.)
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 09:48am PT
|
Bolts are eyesores.
Bolts are aesthetic and beautiful.
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 09:52am PT
|
You want "ground up"? Try that roadside crag just west of Cheyenne Wyoming on Hwy 80. I gaurantee you'll feel pretty "ground up" when you're done there...
edit-
Holy Hannah, did you just say bolts are beautiful? WTF, WTF, SERIOUSLY WTF???
If you think they are such a beauty mark, let me install one on your forehead.
Bolts are the devil!
Any body got Ken Nichol's address, I'm going to go shovel his driveway for free the next time it snows.
85% of climbers wouldn't climb if there were no bolts? Halleluja! There it is, the answer to all my prayers, all wrapped up in a neat little package. I Knew Mimi was a prophet!
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 09:55am PT
|
weschrist: "I find it funny to watch people like Mimi twist over their own false interpretations of what I am saying. I like to watch people's bias come out and confront them."
so you're saying you're a troll...
Nah, I'm the troll. :)
Wes is trying to suggest some sort of coherent cross-generation compromise position. Despite the inflamitory humor, he's got a serious (non-trolling) point. If you old guys don't try to make some sort of sense to future generations (perhaps through something like what Karl Baba was suggesting), once you're all dead, guess what will be left over? People who think more like me than like Wes.
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 10:10am PT
|
I think "ground up" makes better climbers.
Precisely backwards.
The best ground up ascents have been done by climbers who "train" by hangdogging and using top-down tactics.
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 10:12am PT
|
I've mentioned before the fact that surfers overall respect and revere their elders' accomplishments. That's because every surfer coming up had to summon up the exact same goods and skills as their parents and grandparents to surf the same breaks. They also still have that respect because you can't 'bolt' waves in any fashion.
You obviously think that young climbers don't respect their elders. But what you're missing, Joseph, is that there are a lot of elders out there to choose from, and not all of them are worthy of the same kind of respect.
I respect people who adapted with changing times or who helped revolutionize climbing in their own time. The people who were willing to use controversial or even taboo tactics and techniques when they made sense.
I don't care too much or have much respect for those who responded to change by chopping bolts, sabotaging hangers, starting fights, or giving up completely. That's just sad.
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 10:15am PT
|
Holy Hannah, did you just say bolts are beautiful? WTF, WTF, SERIOUSLY WTF???
I like shiny things.
Bolts are the devil!
Ahhh, I love the smell of religious fervor in the morning.
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 10:25am PT
|
You myopic little f*#kstain,
What kind of legacy will you be leaving when land managers close areas to climbing permanently because of scenic degradation? The whole world doesn't climb, and even of the people that do, not all see bolts the way you do.
The end result of your philosophy will be the prohibition of rock climbing on all public land.
And if you think climbing isn't about adventure anymore, then why the hell do it? What is it?
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 10:37am PT
|
The whole world doesn't climb, and even of the people that do, not all see bolts the way you do.
Nor do they all see them the way you do. I encourage you to ask some of your non-climbing friends how they feel about bolts. (You'll have to make sure not to bias the answer in the way you ask the question.)
And if you think climbing isn't about adventure anymore, then why the hell do it? What is it?
Umm. It's fun.
Sheesh.
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 11:04am PT
|
Another shining example of cluelessness from the Lone Star state.
|
|
Tired Trad Tales
Trad climber
southern cal
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2006 - 11:09am PT
|
The recent development of tow-in surfing developed for big waves will no doubt now be used on far smaller waves so folks can have 'brilliant experiences' without suffering the challenges and risks of actually getting out and catching a wave themselves or getting themselves out of harms way after a dive. That pretty much creates trad and sport surfing. Still, the waves themselves and many of the risks associated with surfing them will remain unchanged. Every ride is a new and unique wave and in some ways it's too bad rock can't similarly cleanse and replinish itself after every climb.
Nice analogy, can we talk about "tow-in" surfing now?
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 11:22am PT
|
Lynn Hill, FFA of the Nose...trad/sportclimber
Tommy Caldwell, America best climber...trad/sportclimber
Huber Brothers, Numerous BW FFA's ...trad/sportclimber
Ron Kauk, America best all-around climber...trad/sportclimber
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 11:55am PT
|
Bob, the folks you listed are all awesome and accomplished climbers, but I certainly would not label them career sport climbers. Not that you were, just a point.
Sport climbing is such a tiny backwater of alpinism that to summarily label anyone that is not doing them much service. I find it amusing how many climbers on this forum label themselves as sport climbers. The notion that traditional climbing is dead or on the wane is merely a whitewash tactic that's been used for decades to get the climbing community to accept more bolting.
ECF, that 80% statement was provided by Joe I believe, but thanks anyway.
Edit: Oh and Wes/frac, you should view the real Ground Up thread called Welcome to Kevin Worrall. That is, if you can handle the cleaning bill.
|
|
Broken
climber
Texas
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 12:08pm PT
|
My motivation for posting in this thread and on this forum is to show that "hope is not lost" for the future. I don't want Jello or the rest of the old guard to totally lose faith.
I am 25 years old. Before a serious injury (skiing, not climbing), I climbed as much as I could - ice, rock, plastic, etc.
Fracture arrogantly claims to represent the future of climbing. He acts as though climbing has evolved and that everything that has gone before will slip away - inevitably and unstoppably.
This is absurd.
I don't deny that the majority of climbers these days start in gyms. It is true.
However, that does not negate the fact that there continue to be large numbers of climbers who value risk and adventure. The percentage is not what it once was, but it is there. All of my good climbing partners have valued these things.
Additionally, Fracture stands as yet another individual giving Texans a bad name. I grew up as one, left, and have now been forced back.
Even Texas has its share of people who climb outside of gyms and above pro.
And Bob - Kauk as the best all-around rock climber in America? How do you figure that? (Aside from longevity...)
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 12:09pm PT
|
I have a question.
Some number of posts ago the question, ”Who owns the rock?” was posed. After many hours of diligent and frankly painful research I have come up with the answer. Whomever possesses legal title to the land, in many cases some level of government. Sometime ago at a meeting on JTNP the park supervisor said, “It is our job to manage the park”(as a public resource).
More than thirty years ago, as regards other issues, many of us felt the special interest group comprised of climbers( we are a special interest group just as are the logging and mining industries) were well advised to work together and reach a consensus. Potentially it would be a painful process and whatever any of our opinions, no one of us would get all that we desired. Evenso, such is still preferable to argumentative inaction. Because consensus and proactive response would allow us to sit at the table as partners and to provide useful counsel to the managers when they settle on resource management policy. If we decide not to compromise and build consensus on the present issue we, in a very real sense and for whatever reason, have decided to let others decide our fate.
As I did before, I still think this is a most foolish decision. So then, if we have decided not to act together each of us is now free, individually, to express our opinions as taxpayers to appropriate governmental functions; and to join with other non-climbing organizations with whom we agree. This has been thirty years in the making.
Are we now finally to that point?
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 12:32pm PT
|
Wes, again, get past the ownership thing. How does a route get deemed classic and hence untouchable, in your mind? You refuse to answer this repeated question.
I've also asked you for your list of 'dead' routes a couple of times. What routes are you talking about? Is this just a bunch of generalized belly aching or are there specific climbs you'd like to dumb down?
|
|
Tork
climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 12:39pm PT
|
Wow!! Some things never change. Just a bunch of name calling. Everyone just reacts but nobody listens. The only ones processing what they read are Jello and Karl.Its not what they say so much as how they say it. You can tell they are thinking about it not just reacting.
If you want anything out of this thread, other than a soap opera, go back and read their posts.
Jello, I already had a ton of respect for you as a climber but now I have even more as just an awsome person.
Jeff
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
|
jstan, with individuals like you and other notable wise climbers in the mix, I hope that if we are at this point with the government, that you all would be at the table.
Wes, if they're around Tahoe, I've possibly already visited the areas. I thought you had some specifics in mind. Your use of the passive voice is stunning regarding the community. What is your criteria for making these determinations? How can some miserable neglected route become suddently so exceptional for you with the addition of bolts?
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
|
ECF wrote
"What kind of legacy will you be leaving when land managers close areas to climbing permanently because of scenic degradation? The whole world doesn't climb, and even of the people that do, not all see bolts the way you do.
The end result of your philosophy will be the prohibition of rock climbing on all public land."
There are plenty of problems with bolts but it is an extremely rare case when their visual impact to the public is one of them. We slab climbers all know what it's like not to be able to find a bolt that's right in front of you.
Land Managers respond to other factors first. Accidents and fatalities breed concern and publicity. Impact to vegetation and erosion above and below cliffs is a larger environmental impact than bolts and that might be a reason to allow rap routes where walk offs once sufficed.
So their is a pro and con case regarding bolts and access. Bolt chopping wars and involving authorities in bolt rules almost never favors climbers and should be avoided in favor of community concensus and dialog as much as possible.
Peace
Karl
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
|
Mimi wrote: Bob, the folks you listed are all awesome and accomplished climbers, but I certainly would not label them career sport climbers. Not that you were, just a point.
Mimi...the point I am trying to make is that these climbers use both type of climbing to push standards to a higher level. You have to be blind/dumb/ingorant not to realized what sport climbing has done to help these folks reach their lofty goals.
Tommy Caldwell used sport climbing to accomplish his ascents on El-Cap.
My personal opinion on Ron Kauk. Big Wall climber (a5), elite bouldered, amazing trad climber and 5.14 sport climber.
Not too many of him running around.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:07pm PT
|
That's true Bob, but ground up traditional climbing is what shaped them to be the great climbers that they are. The technical advances aided by abundant pro is old news. It's been the Eurostyle disclaimer for decades now.
Just curious, if the Huber brothers do a continuous hard pitch that has only two bolts on it, is it a sport pitch or something else?
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:12pm PT
|
Mimi wrote: That's true Bob, but ground up traditional climbing is what shaped them to be the great climbers that they are. The technical advances aided by abundant pro is old news. It's been the Eurostyle disclaimer for decades now.
Your distaste for sport climbing is really showing.
What made them great climbers is that they embraced sport-climbing and used it to push standards higher.
The reason why the Hubers can do a pitch on El-Cap with just two bolts is that they have done thousands of hard sport climbs with bolts.
Do you sport climb...or just whine about it???
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:35pm PT
|
Who's whining? Since returning to the west, when I have time to climb, I do not spend it sport climbing. I respect sport climbing for what it is. My main knock on sport climbing is the general attitude I see on this forum. Several of the anonymous and combative posters label themselves as such and don't seem to have a full appreciation or grasp of the total climbing game. I think if a climber only knows the gym and sport routes, they miss out on a ton of what climbing has to offer.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:39pm PT
|
Weschrist,
Your use of the "ownership" issue is flat out bogus. It's easy to tell it's bogus because it is simply about whether you have a right to take some action or another. But the real heart of the matter isn't whether you have the right or permission or not - the heart of the matter is WHAT you want to do and WHY you want to do it. Whether you or future generations have a right to do it is a completely secondary if not tertiary argument.
Stop all the distracting discussion about WHO (ownership) and speak honestly for just one post about the WHAT you want to do and WHY you want to do it. You seem entirely unwilling or unable to simply own that you want climbing and climbs to be safe or explain exactly why you feel that way. As far as I'm concerned it's all going to remain a repetitive circle jerk until you do...
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:42pm PT
|
I think Bob is just saying that Sport Climbing has contributed to higher standards and accomplishments in Trad climbing as well.
I don't think you're going to find too many examples of folks climbing 5.13 trad or above who haven't honed their abilities sport climbing.
Doesn't matter much. Sport climbing is here and is unlikely to go away. We gotta live with it and establish communication between genres so sport climbing recognizes the difference in values and practices when they take their pumpatude to the trad realms.
Peace
Karl "totally sucks at sport climbing and never drilled a sport bolt" Baba
|
|
Broken
climber
Texas
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:56pm PT
|
Mimi wrote "I think if a climber only knows the gym and sport routes, they miss out on a ton of what climbing has to offer."
I agree with this. And it does sadden me a little when I talk with a climber who seems to be "missing out" on so much. However, I have no problem with anyone focusing on one particular part of climbing. Part of what I love about climbing is how diverse it is, how you can get sucked into so many different aspects of it.
I think it's fine for someone to stick to one thing. I become irritated/angry/combative when this same person tries to apply the lessons they've learned in one limited context to other facets of climbing.
|
|
GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
|
Wes, what you're saying is not only insulting to the last generation, but to the next, too. Like Broken, I'm not a stuck-in-the-mud oldster. I started climbing in the gym. I learned to climb first by reading John Long how-to books. It took a few years from that humble beginning before I understood the value of putting routes up with minimal fixed gear. Fortunately, I had folks around me who respected the past, and that gave me the time to come to my own conclusions.
Your vision is shortsighted. It suggests that every generation should impose their will on the work of the last generation. Not only does that reverse the progression of what climbers have always tried to do - to do the climbs of their elders in ever-better style, (while putting up new routes in the style of their choice). But even worse, if you change those older climbs to suit today's taste, it robs new climbers of the chance to commune with the older climbs - to learn how they fit in the world through experienceing what's been done before. And that sense of continuity, of belonging to a community, of seeing oneself as a climber within a history of climbing - that is a perspective that you seem not to care for one whit.
In essence, you're adovocating smashing flat a whole line of protection leading from the past to the present to the future.
That, sir, I have no respect for.
GO
|
|
graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 02:07pm PT
|
That was well said
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 02:08pm PT
|
It sure was.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 02:20pm PT
|
Wes - "Good thing Bachar didn't bolt everything, cuz most everyone would be hard pressed to develop the talent to climb anything."
an interesting statement, there are climbs in Tuolumne Meadows, say the west side of Fairview Dome, which at "X" rated and have no bolts. They were done solo, onsight. So even when no bolts were placed, there are routes that are respected and left in the condition that they were climbed.
Would I climb the route? not likely, but I would be one of the first to go and chop bolts placed over the line.
Why?
Because these climbs represent an important evolution of the sport in the early '80s, the idea of that committment is the most important aspect of climbing. That is a depricated idea, but the fact that it is no long fashionable to talk about committment doesn't make it invalid. I would advocate keeping those lines free of bolts simply because there are climbers who are bold enough to actually go and do them; in the past, the present and the future. And they should have the opportunity.
The Meadows is big enough to support bolted lines similar to these in other places... no need to force your ethic there, just go elsewhere.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 02:28pm PT
|
Mimi wrote: I think if a climber only knows the gym and sport routes, they miss out on a ton of what climbing has to offer.
That's an opinion and one that I agree with. But what I think doesn't mean that others should think or do the same.
Karl wrote: think Bob is just saying that Sport Climbing has contributed to higher standards and accomplishments in Trad climbing as well.
I don't think you're going to find too many examples of folks climbing 5.13 trad or above who haven't honed their abilities sport climbing.
Bingo!!!
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
|
I agree with you Ed, but just to play devil's advocate, what do you think about the fact that a few years ago Alan Nelson invited anyone to go "retrobolt-into-sport-climbs" his old Tuolumne free solos (which include several on the right side of Fairview)?
|
|
Broken
climber
Texas
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 02:40pm PT
|
Ed mentioned earlier the notion of climbing the B-Y safely. There were no further comments on this.
But I think it is one of the central aspects of this issue.
People who have logged countless hours in the gym or on difficult sport routes / boulder problems do not understand the concept of climbing dangerous routes safely. They seem to think that it is all a matter of climbing "below your level" (i.e. a 5.13 climber on a run-out 5.11, such as the B-Y).
This is not necessarily the case.
Run-out climbing is something you have to train for as well. People are frustrated when they have 5.12 strength but can't do a "dangerous" 5.9 because protection is sparse. So what do they do? They claim that the route was put up in poor style - or was some sort of ego demonstration. Or that it is just stupid.
Rather, I think their unwillingness to prepare adequately for the route - and their unwillingness to see other value systems - speaks to their own ego and their own hypocrisy.
"Bold" climbing did not come naturally to me. I was not one who could just haphazardly jump on something and confront big falls on questionable gear. I don't think there are many who can do this (just as there are not many who can climb 5.13 right out of the box).
But you can work up to it. 5.10R is not all that dangerous with the proper preparation and the proper approach.
Actual risk brings mental challenges far different than just hanging on for the sake of "the send." Why should we remove these from climbing?
HOW MUCH DIFFERENCE IS THERE BETWEEN RETRO-BOLTING A RUN-OUT CLASSIC AND CHIPPING A HARD SPORT ROUTE DOWN TO YOUR LEVEL?
Hey, if you want to do it like the FA did it, just don't grab that jug I chiseled into the crux...
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 03:18pm PT
|
Wes, maybe if you were more articulate, we could have a better discussion on this board. Your irrational entertainment doesn't seem to be entertaining the people trying to reason with you. And I think I'm safe in saying that we're all still climbing. Most folks on here are still active and passionate about climbing. We've stuck it out here in this jerkfest despite your ridicule and obvious lack of respect and reading comprehension skills.
Ponder for a moment why the legions of gymspawn whose flag you proudly wave seem noticeably absent in this discussion. It's you and frac. Does that not raise a flag that your position is generally untenable?
How dark and smelly does the view have to get before you realize that your head might be in the wrong place?
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 03:29pm PT
|
Hedge, that's an entertaining analysis.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 03:52pm PT
|
Wes wrote:
I presented my ideas:
"1) the rock does not belong to the FA party.
2) the style of the FA party should not dictate how that section of the rock gets treated for future generation unless it is currently valued by the community.
3) this includes overbolted sport climbs as well as routes with potentially great climbing that consistently get passed over due to the way the FA team put them up, for whatever reason."
Which is pretty much the way things are,
except that "potentially great climbing that consistently get passed over due to the way the FA team put them up" is presently "currently valued by the community"
Almost by definition, if the community in an area changes it's values, the situation will change, whether we like it or not. Thus the value of communication about where those values come from.
I still think Wes's confrontational writing has made folks angry enough to put words in his mouth, too bad. My contributions to this thread were in spite of the emotional writing on both sides, not because of them.
BTW Ed, I'm not sure something like Bachar's "Solitary Confinement" has had many ascent's but I wouldn't glorify it. He told me once that during his first ascent, he found himself in the middle of a committing move depending on a key hold that showed signs of cracking and breaking at any moment. Even a big stud could go on the ride of his life.
Some of this discussion winds up sounding extreme when the reality everywhere is just a little different. Kinda like "abstinence only" education.
Daughter: "Dad, can we talk about sex?"
Dad: "Uh..Yeah.....Of course.."
Daughter: "Cause I was thinking, now that I'm 18 and all, that once I'm in a committed relationship of say, 8 dates, that maybe oral sex is safe enough to engage in with my new boyfriend."
Dad: "Err..Honey, let me tell you about trad climbing values, bolting ethics, and the we we do things in Tuolumne Meadows..."
;-)
Karl
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 05:24pm PT
|
In view of the fact that we already lost the war, I'm not sure it makes sense to keep fighting the battles.
Curt
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 05:56pm PT
|
This is exactly the discussion I heard thirty years ago. There has been no change whatsoever. What would I consider to be a change?
1. People uniformly treat each other in a civil manner. If agreement is reached, the people to whom you are now talking may one day be belaying you.
2. People ask each other questions - and listen to the answer.
3. People express opinions that are consistent from one moment to the next.
I am sure there are other excellent candidates for this list and perhaps some will be offered. In my opinion, we are going nowhere people.
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 06:47pm PT
|
My meaningless opinion is up in the wind, but I do know this--my rap-bolted FAs here in Montana are unemotional to me, and I am far more excited when somebody repeats them; however, my GU trad FAs are memorable and accomplishments which I am inwardly proud of. Typical response to a query over TD FAs, "Pretty anticlimatic, man, I had it wired when I red-pointed it." Typical response on a GU FA, "It was hairy, but fun and I actually pulled it off--great climb, etc..." Y'all be the judge and put yourself in the FA's shoes--justification for an action never exceeds the criticsm it brought about.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 07:21pm PT
|
Kinda ironic.
The older generation preserved the boldness of the faces but created heavy damage on the walls and cracks using pins because they didn't have better gear, didn't have better vision, and couldn't wait. Later they suggest others wait until they have the skills to climb the bold stuff or leave it alone forever.
The old school also polluted the whole world, wasted resources at a wildly unsustainable rate and racked up huge debt as a nation.
The kids will have different set of challenges. Climb walls cleaner or trench heads for miles? Burn up the coal and screw up their own kid's world as the oil runs short or live leaner and more sustainably? Retrobolt something, everything or nothing?
Time will tell. The bar is high in some places and low in other. On the financial/resource/environmental level, We've left em with quite a lead out to begin with.
Not trying to make a particular point, Just some food for thought
peace
karl
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 08:17pm PT
|
Damn! Wes, that was your best post this whole thread!
Although I certainly hate the idea of retro-bolting, having a committee decide about new and existing routes, etc...I realize we have come to that in some places.
mojede, My meaningless opinion is up in the wind, but I do know this--my rap-bolted FAs here in Montana are unemotional to me, and I am far more excited when somebody repeats them; however, my GU trad FAs are memorable and accomplishments which I am inwardly proud of. Typical response to a query over TD FAs, "Pretty anticlimatic, man, I had it wired when I red-pointed it." Typical response on a GU FA, "It was hairy, but fun and I actually pulled it off--great climb, etc..." Y'all be the judge and put yourself in the FA's shoes--justification for an action never exceeds the criticsm it brought about.
I thought this was worth repeating and I totally agree.
Climbing does represent many different extremes and it is totally necessary that the extremes of boldness be preserved. Maybe that does not mean all routes should stay that way but so far, nobody has come out and said they wanted route X at crag Y retro bolted.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 09:58pm PT
|
"We are like dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, so that we can see more than they, and things at a greater distance, not by virtue of any sharpness on sight on our part, or any physical distinction, but because we are carried high and raised up by their giant size."
John of Salisbury, 12th century
As AF noted, Sir Isaac Newton in the 17th century: "If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." (I visited his birthplace a few weeks ago. OT trivia.)
"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?"
Robert Browning, 19th century
Wes: Whose shoulders are you standing on, and what are your dreams?
It's risky to disagree with the philosophers and poets. And if we forget where we came from, it'll be harder to work out where we're going.
Freud, who had views on the need of sons to "murder" their fathers, may have had some interesting thoughts on this thread. As we're a rather heterogenous bunch, it'd be risky to say more.
My preference is GU routes, but I've climbed if not created most kinds. I don't think anyone, even those who create a respected FA, "owns" the rock or mountains. We share them. With each other, and with the public and the natural environment. We feel at home in them, but they're not "our" territory. A lot of climbing behaviour is explained by adolescent male sociology, especially to do with territory, control, peer groups, and challenge.
Those who create a FA, especially one of substance, should be accorded respect - a new route is often a work of art, even poetry. (I refuse to use "develop" when it comes to creating new routes - it demeans the experience. Although sometimes I wonder.) It also means I don't have any more - or less - right to behave as I want on the rock than anyone else. Living or yet to be born. We often in our selfishness forget the long perspective.
I think jstan hit the nail on the head. These are all old issues, thrashed to death, but we're in a time of change. We need to talk about and work out these things. Even though it's sometimes like the death of 1,000 cuts.
FWIW, IMHO:
1. Climbers form a community. One full of strong-willed individuals. Being in a community means responsibility - especially to each other. Tolerance, open communication, honesty, and all that kindergarten stuff. It also means working together, something we could do better. Ken Yager and his ilk deserve many gold stars for their work on herding cats.
2. Climbing is inclusive, not exclusive. We're not special, or entitled to special treatment, just because we're climbers, or climb. The diversity of ST illustrates this - we even tolerate honorary climbers, e.g. LEB. Sort of, anyway.
3. Whenever we can, we have to work out our issues, real or perceived, ourselves. Else we're inviting others to do so for us. And perceptions count as much as reality - this is politics.
4. We're not on an unlimited frontier any more. There are boundaries, and they're mostly not going away. (The British and Norwegians largely refuse to countenance bolting, let alone rap-bolting, as they're acutely aware that they have a limited resource. Climbers in other parts of Europe often haven't been so forward thinking.)
5. Climbing always involves risk. It may be modest, as is often the case with bouldering and bolt-protected ("sport") climbing. But there's risk, and it's real. As is well illustrated by the number hurt in gyms, or bouldering. (The American Safe Climbing Association, for all its great efforts, should be charged with oxymoronism. Safer, maybe. Safe, never.)
6. Climbing also always involves challenge, usually physical, mental and moral. And it almost always requires real effort, and inconvenience. The greater the effort, often the greater the reward.
7. We may be in the last golden age of climbing. That is, pending environmental, economic, and other challenges may mean that the opportunities we have may not recur. For example, the days of easily undertaken road trips or foreign climbs may quickly end - if gas were US$5 gallon, unemployment 12%, and there was increased foreign tension and internal social problems. Environmental impacts, real, perceived, and imagined, may lead to much greater limitations on what we do and how we do it. Not out of the question. The next generations may not need to worry about climbing's next challenges - if they're too busy surviving, and can't afford to get to them.
8. Climbing ground up was in part due to the evolution of our odd avocation (climbing isn't a "sport" - that demeans it), in part due to limitations of equipment, and in part due to conscious choices. It isn't necessarily "right" or "wrong", but is how most climbers climbed in the 1950s - 1980s, and even now is often the style used for new routes. It happens to be a style which ensures that there is a challenge, and maximizes it. Desirable goals, in my view.
9. Stylistic differences are important, but not always substantive. As long as climbers minimize their impacts on the human and natural environments, respect the culture (traditions, history...) of the area they're climbing in, and are utterly honest with themselves and others about what and how they've climbed, it often doesn't matter. Bolts often have little impact in and of themselves - but the message they can convey to land managers is of a dispute (needing to be externally decided), environmental impacts (cleaning, increased use), and public attitudes (noisy thoughtless idiots). If you're perceived as a problem, that's probably how you'll be addressed.
Apologies for long-windedness. There does seem to be something besides smoke and heat on this thread.
Anders
|
|
LongAgo
Trad climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 10:00pm PT
|
Some time back, Supertopo posters discussed retrobolting of Hair Raiser Buttress (East Side of Sierra) and hit upon some of the same issues on this thread. Search for "retrobolting" or "Hair Raiser" if interested. Here are some possibly relevant bits from a past post of mine on HB:
1. On the issue of scant protection on some old routes and resulting frustration and/or retreat:
"Posters should know they are not alone in their disappointment at turning back from nice walls like HB because the protection/mix is problematic. I certainly have passed on great looking climbs due to a protection/difficulty balance beyond me. See my previous posts about turning back from certain climbs, for example a long sought prize - Super Pin in SD. Closer to home, I was disappointed at turning back from the Bachar Yerian and You Asked For It (sidebar: attempting them with a solo self belay system was stupid). The point is, depending on our abilities and the protection, all of us face climbs too difficult or dangerous for the day. I never thought to ask Bachar to add bolts to insure my safety. Being humbled is part of the game, especially early on when pushing and hungry. Overall, I believe the best response is to alter our own behavior (get sane or better) not the climbs."
2. On why some older routes have minimal bolt protection:
"Some posts also express quandary at why I kept the number of bolts to a minimum on HB, or certain other first ascents. My motive was not to create death defying or "manly" routes (a poster asks, 'You want a bold route that other climbers will aspire to do in the same manly style you did?' See Tricksters and Traditionalists post, Dec. 1). Under clean climbing standards and ground up rules I grew up with (see previous T&T post about strong role of my mentor), bolts were the last resort. Minimizing their number was not to create mind games for others but leave the rock marked with as few bolts as possible. I realize my attitude may seem quaint in the era of sport routes, but we are products of our times and mentors, and that was the attitude instilled in me."
3. On why not retrobolt without asking the first ascent party:
"Should bolts be added to routes created under the minimalist bolting ethic so more climbers can enjoy them? After all, couldn't bolts be added, guidebooks still note the original style of the ascent and give credit accordingly, as a poster suggests? Of course there is pleasure being named in a guidebook or history. But to think getting into publications is such a central prize in climbing underestimates the complexity of the game. Preserving original protection is not to insure climbers get scared or first ascent parties get into history as bold. Preservation insures climbers preferring to do the climb in its original style get to do so. Some climbers prefer more risk and complication than many sport routes provide. They deserve their opportunities just as much as sportsters deserve theirs.
But the picture is bigger than preferred risk profiles. Not altering routes insures they remain tributes to the time and mentality around their creation. An important joy of the climbing game comes not just from doing climbs, but viewing, pondering, absorbing (as per this very web site) the full well of experiences, the moving stage of heroes, fools and follies, high and low tales, grand and vain acts. In the drama, the features of routes and associated protection are the underlying choreography, the hand and foot sequences set in stone and passing on through time. Once protection is changed, the original choreography of moves, runs, hardware (and sling) frustrations, resulting pumps and rests, the curses and hoots - the entire emotional passage - is altered. And lost is an assessment of how nuts or noble were the makers, our second guessing of all they felt. In short, there is no tribute to the past, no way to tap the well. It is for all these reasons, barring unusual circumstances, routes should be left to stand as they were first done."
For those interested in other ramblings on climbing style issues, past and present, there is a style discussion section at my (non-commercial) web site: www.tomhiggins.net
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
|
|
Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 10:12pm PT
|
Nothing more to be said
|
|
Anastasia
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 10:44pm PT
|
A response to Fracture...
What is a better climber? The guy that hang dogs a route using the rope as aid to learn a route? Or the guy that flashes and free climbs the route?
As Bob Kamps once said, leave hang dogging at the gym and do it right.
|
|
Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 11:17pm PT
|
Since I do a lot of climbing solo, I usually establish the free climbs aid first and clean it as I go up and place anchor stations as I go. Do I get to be in the cool ground up clan? Or must I first balance on one toe on a friable flake while rubbing my crotch on a small nubbin for balance as I daintily slam on a drill?
Jesse
|
|
Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 12:02am PT
|
shoot, ill work on that.
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 12:08am PT
|
Well Cuck, it does sound like a certain uh, satisfaction may be gained from that.
|
|
Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 12:09am PT
|
I hear its only in circular clockwise directions. You counter the actions and things get..ah rubbed the wrong way
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 12:34am PT
|
Applicable?
From: Russ Walling
Date: Sat, Oct 3 1998 12:00 am
Gary Clark, naclassics...@usa.net writes:
>In Rock & Ice #87, we have Jim Bridwell' s essay "Where Are We Going?"
>containing this well-worn bit of climbing philosophy: "Climbers of lesser
>skill or lesser commitment had begun adding bolts to existing routes,
>destroying the dignity of other people's achievements and bringing them
>down to their level."
>Then in the photo-essay "2 Days in the Valley", we
>come upon this caption to Galen Rowell's photo of Ron Kauk climbing Cookie
>Monster: "Traditionalists may have screamed when the bolts when in, but the
>climb's popularity leaped exponentially and dozens of climbers each month
>now enjoy its technical liebacking and sudden exposure."
>Is the style of the first ascent somehow sacrosanct, or can
>ensuing generations "improve" on it?
Yes it is and I'll tell you why. In this sanitised world of diminished
returns and quick gains, some things should just not be within an arms reach or a minds grasp. Some things are just not for everyone. Call it what you want, but every climb is not for every person.
>First, I fail to see the logic of considering a particular piece of a crag
>or mountain to be evermore the exclusive property of whomever may have
>first shown up to climb it.
For the same reason that we do not add a moustache to the Mona Lisa.
For the same reason we don't rename Everest every time it gets climbed....someone put the time and effort into making a route, be it for whatever reason, and much like a conquistador has claimed this rock and put protection in as he saw fit. History dictates this as an acceptable style and method.
>Often the style employed by first ascensionist is aimed at simply getting up the route * they may have little
>time or intention of creating a route for those who will follow
>(sport routes are the exception, hence their popularity).
Flat out wrong. This is not the case where I climb, though it may be
where you climb. The modern first ascentionist actually puts in a lot of time and money to make the routes not only good, but equipped with sound bolts and other points of protection for those who will follow. Not only on Sport routes, but "sporty" routes as well.
>Second, it is obvious that the quality of protection is but one element that determines
>the risk involved in getting up a route. If we are to be so intent on retaining the same risk of injury or death
>for a leader fall as that experienced by the first ascensionists, why is it then permissible to improve on all the
>other risk factors? Shouldn't we all be doing The Nose
>in Vibram soles, using prussik knots and goldline ropes? Anything less is
>an afront to Warren Harding et al! They suffered with terrible gear and
>technique, so should all that follow!
You are correct. Technical advances have taken the teeth out of many
things, making the adding of bolts seem even more puss. New advances in gear are an accepted part of the sport. Adding or changing routes is yet to be an accepted standard.
Why, then, is it such a sin to
>improve such a basic element of a climb as the quality of the protection or
>anchors?
I can agree with the anchors portion of the argument, though some will
differ claiming that sh#t anchors add to the challenge. If sh#t anchors are indeed part of challenge of a given route, then I guess these too should be left alone. Same argument as adding protection bolts. Adding bolts to an existing route changes the route. Say you decide you need three extra bolts to make the route fun for you...someone else decides six makes if good for him...then ten...then? Where does it end? It should end where the guy who put the effort forth
to do the FA decides.
>I would suggest for two reasons:
> First, the first ascensionists want to make sure those who follow are
>sufficiently impressed with how bold they were,
In some cases this is true, and even so this effort should not be
watered down by some ball-less coward. This is what was attempted in the Needles of California. A disgruntled would be FA guy started to add bolts to numerous runout routes, thus making the climbs safe for "him". Wrong answer. He should have either whipped his sad ass into shape and then go and do the routes as designed by the FA party or just sucked it up enough to admit to himself that he just did not have what it takes to do some of those routes. Another point is that what seems to be a dangerous runout to someone doing a later
ascent was truly dangerous for the FA guy standing there trying to drill the bolt you now so easily clip. In his judgement or because of the nature of the area climbed, it is possible he could not stop to drill the bolt until a substantial runout was formed. So, now some guy comes along and says "gee, he's just running it out to be bold...lets add bolts". Wrongo. How about just doing the route, and saying "gee, what a good route. Nice effort for the FA guy on this one..."
>I suggest it is a notion whose time has come and passed. If a well
established and
>popular one route can be substantially improved by the careful and
>strategic placement of new protection, not only will the experience be
>enhanced for hundreds to follow, but perhaps some serious injuries or
>deaths will be prevented.
The question being why must hundreds follow? Why must injury or death
be prevented? Some climbers prefer to get outside the sanitised bubble of "gym"
climbing outdoors and test themselves and their mettle against not only the rock but other men. Example: The Bachar/Yerian in Tuolumne. If you go up to do this route you are not only testing yourself against the rock, but also against Bachar; or Gullich who whistled for 60ft out of the thing, or Menestral, another hard puller who took the ride. At least some of these guys are probably one of your "heros" or should be. Which would you sooner have: a level playing field where you can match your skills with a truly great climber, or some clip and go bush walk where all you do is pull and never think about the consequences? I'll take the first one, thank you.
>All this at the cost of a bruise to the ego of the hard men who believe that the route should remain a perpetual
>monument to their courage and boldness. Let it be recorded in the guidebooks that the route was done in
>bathroom slippers with railroad spikes for protection
>so that all can be properly impressed, then let's get on with making it
>something worth climbing!
It is not the ego of the hardmen that are bruised, but rather the soft
flesh and accomplishment of the climber who cheapens the event. To those with the requisite skill and nerve, these projects are the only things worth climbing, not some flaccid clip up with no sense of history.
>For those who bemoan the loss of adventure, I make two suggestions. First, there are vast ranges of unclimbed
>objectives out there where you can find a climb as challenging as you wish.
Won't happen, bad suggestion. The loss of adventure was not there for
the FA party. They got full value, before you even showed up, and at the time the route probably was an unclimbed objective. The flip side of this argument is why don't all the safe and sane wusses go and find something they can bolt the sh#t out of and then play happy all over, their own ball-less masterpiece, a climb just a safe as you wish.
>Second, if you want to do a route in the style of the first ascent,
there's often
>nothing stopping you * grab a rack of Hexes, put on some hiking boots, and
>make sure you don't clip any offending bolts or fixed gear as you go up.
Discussed above, and yes, some guys still do this. More power to them.
>None of this is intended to indicate I favor immediately leaping on
>someone's new route and grid bolting it because you can't climb it. But a
>route that has stood the test of time, but for which an improvement here or
>there could change it from a dangerous undertaking to a real classic, or to
>eliminate an aid section in favor of free climbing, is a route that will
>eventually be improved. This is already happening, and the trend will
>accelerate, to the benefit of the vast majority of the climbing community.
This is such sh#t. Just leave it alone and go to the gym. Routes that
stay the test of time are something to aspire to, not something to defile. Your
improvement may be fine for you, but will surely not be enough for someone else.
Just leave it alone. Everything does not need to be safe. Everyone does not have to climb everything. Face up to the fact that there are some routes you will never be able to do. You can cloak your own limitations in the old "good for the masses" battle cry of the retrobolter, but the real motivation in doing this is not for the masses. It is all about bringing something down to your level because you cannot rise up to meet the challenge head on.
>The first ascensionists should treat it as a complement that the route was
>worth repeating. That's my view of "Where we are going."
Retrobolting is no compliment. It is a slap in your own face, and hopefully not where we are going.
My .08
Russ
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 01:03am PT
|
Russ quoted
"Then in the photo-essay "2 Days in the Valley", we
>come upon this caption to Galen Rowell's photo of Ron Kauk climbing Cookie
>Monster: "Traditionalists may have screamed when the bolts when in, but the
>climb's popularity leaped exponentially and dozens of climbers each month
>now enjoy its technical liebacking and sudden exposure."
Sometimes the devil is in the details. Folks cite Cookie Monster as a retrobolt but in fact it was preprotected by somebody else aiding it first and leaving the gear in, including a few fixed pins, which, you guessed it, damage the climb. Smith almost ate it being lowered off the pins on an early burn when they started to come out while he was on the rope. The proud "used to be a trad" climb rep was a fantasy.
Show me any legendary hardman and I'll show you somebody who probably added a bolt to a climb via the devil's details department.
Example. I think Vern added a bolt to Sunshine on Daff in TM on the second ascent. Why? There was a one 1/4 inch bolt belay. Why? Not because the FA was bold, but because they either ran out of bolts or their bit broke, cant' remember which.
Doesn't mean the basic "don't retrobolt" principles don't apply but again "abstinence only" is something we tell the kids but act differently ourselves.
Peace
karl
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 03:16am PT
|
Russ nails it perfectly: "Face up to the fact that there are some routes you will never be able to do."
Every climber knows there are routes that are above our abilities. The problem with this whole argument is that many are so focused on numbers. Most of us here can't even consider 5.14 as a realistic goal. But that number is just that - a number. A number that tries to reduce the rock to a strange subjective system. And a number that says nothing about pro and psychological difficulty.
Wes focuses on this "5.13 climber putting up runout 5.11" when a much more appropriate description would be "really strong climber launching into the unknown on unheard of runout climbing on way-too-steep-to-stance-drill super-steep knobs with NO KNOWN good hook placements and lots of knobs that might break especially if hooked."
Too much focusing on numbers instead of the challenges of the rock. That leads to this idea that if you can get up some number climb somewhere you are entitled to do it anywhere you choose. Forget the numbers and challenge yourself with the climbing - considering all the factors of the climb.
Or, to put it bluntly, if you don't like runout climbs, climb protectable ones or put up your own new routes however you like. I'm not "entitled" to make it up a 5.14 if I'm not physically strong enough - and I'm also not "entitled" to make it up a Higgins 5.9 in Tuolumne if I'm not psychologically strong enough.
|
|
ec
climber
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 03:39am PT
|
Thx Russ!
I always liked Doug Robinson's piece, "The Whole Natural Art of Protection." Here's the applicable stuff:
"Where protection is not assured by a usable crack long unprotected runouts sometimes result, and the leader of commitment must be prepared to accept the risks and alternatives which are only too well defined. Personal qualities - judgment, concentration, boldness - the ordeal by fire, take precedence, as they should, over mere hardware.
..."But every climb is not for every climber; the ultimate climbs are not democratic. The fortunate climbs protect themselves by being unprotectable and remain a challenge that can be solved only by boldness and commitment backed solidly by technique. Climbs that are forced clean by the application of boldness should be similarly respected, lest a climber be guilty of destroying a line for the future's capable climbers to satisfy his impatient ego in the present -- by waiting he might become one of the future capables. Waiting is also necessary; every climb has its time, which need not be today.
..."And having the humility to back off rather than continue in bad style - - a thing well begun is not lost. The experience cannot be taken away. By such a system there can never again be "last great problems" but only "next great problems."
http://www.climbaz.com/chouinard72/ch_page12.html
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 04:51am PT
|
Thanks for posting about clean climbing.
Wall climbing seems to be where boldness and perservation are at odds. Folks like to clean fixed pin and head to preserve the difficulty but in doing so sometimes create a situation where further damage to the rock is required.
Where you think we should draw the line between hammering the rock more and leaving some things fixed until some better solution presents itself?
Peace
karl
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 05:08am PT
|
Weschrist, again, have you ever done an FA? If so, were they rap bolted sport climbs or ground up trad climbs? If you haven't put up any FA's than you're really more like a painter who doesn't paint but instead criticizes with a brush and who is sure they know just what a 'difficult' painting needs to make it more "accessible" to the general public.
And analogies to the arts can be a fairly useful tool in this discussion. Van Gogh was a gifted painter, but let's face it, he had no shortage of personal problems many of which bled through onto a few of his canvases. We recognize that today, but you don't see anyone rushing to 'repair' them so we can all have a better appreciation of some of his lesser works. And Hemingway was talented beyond question, but decades of literary criticism have built consensus around the weakness of a passage here and a passage there - no doubt each easily subject to simple fixes for all our benefit.
I suspect we can agree those are unpalatable prospects for obvious reasons, and so I suspect analogies to music would be more to your liking. Mozart - clearly a genius - has been interpreted and reinterpreted for centuries for the enjoyment of all without any harm to his legacy. True enough I'll grant you, but then again, hearing Mozart play or listening to the performances of his work in his time is sadly lost to us; all we have is approximate interpretations. But what B-Y or a Kohl A4+ solo line has in common with say, Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 24 in C minor, K. 491, is that listening to Mozart's concerto is like watching Bachar, Kohl or another of their ilk climb one of their routes. Playing the concerto, however, is like climbing one of those routes. Dumbing either down so they can be played or climbed by lesser mortals unavoidably destroys the very essence of each. Not everyone is capable of producing or performing these difficult classics and that is in large measure exactly what makes them classics.
But of course you claim you aren't talking about classics and I agree. Rather I'm saying you are using the pretext of 'repairing' a few FA F#ckups to provide cover for a broad retrobolting of runout climbs that aren't protected by the imprimatur of fame or infamy. Your convenient indignation over prior art is made wholly transparent when you inadvertantly let fly with gems like '...could have brillant experiences if only...' and reveal your real motive - risk-free 'consumptive' entertainment.
And that's 'consumptive' as in consuming rock with bolts. The Pandora aspect of the impact of gyms and sport climbing has been to generate a reality distortion field of denial over the entire sport. That is evidenced by sport climbers who in general simply dimiss as non-existent many intangible aspects of rock prized by trad climbers. LNT and reverence of stone were swiftly, summarily, and sacrificially dispatched in the early 80's as sport climbing necessarily commoditized rock. And make no mistake, unbolted rock is an undeniable commodity getting more precious by the day (and oh, the absolute inhumanity of our grandchildren deprived of the orgasmic heart beat of a Hilti rapidly thumping home on a cleft of virgin rock!). If you doubt how strong the distortion field and denial are you need only head East to see beautifully colored overhanging sandstone walls literally carpeted with draws and chains and despoiled by chalk and then realize most climbers are totally oblivious as to why some folks might have a problem with that.
And don't get me wrong - I'm all for compromise, but not one that means I'm supposed to stand idly by and watch our legacy, trad climbs, and the last vestiges of pristine rock consumed for mere entertainment by people who aren't even aware of, let alone appreciate, what is sacrificed and lost in the process.
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 10:03am PT
|
Don't be ridiculous, Joseph. An FA of a climbing route has nothing in common with painting or composing, regardless of how much you want to pretend it does. The only situation in which you could really consider routes artistic "creations" on anything remotely approaching that level is if the route is fully chipped and manufactured.
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 10:06am PT
|
Hedge wrote:
Someone who is a proficient sport climber is cheating everytime they trad climb, because they hangdogged to get to the level of climbing ability they're at. If your climbing ability benefits in any way from doing just one rap-bolted climb, you've tainted your entire trad career, and you will never be able to actually trad climb anything ever again. You will always be on an invisible top rope, on every trad climb you ever do, whether you like it or not. In fact, just knowing that sport climbing even exists creates moral and ethical conundrums for the would-be trad climber, who would otherwise think that the ground-up, sub-warmup level 5.11 they were flailing on in fact represented the pinnacle of human achievement. It is therefore dubious at best that trad climbing really even exists anymore.
Best post in the thread. Thanks for that, Joe.
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 10:16am PT
|
Anastasia wrote:
A response to Fracture...
What is a better climber? The guy that hang dogs a route using the rope as aid to learn a route? Or the guy that flashes and free climbs the route?
What are you talking about? The latter, of course. But the people who use hangdog tactics are far better at the latter than the people who don't. (Cf. Bob's posts.)
(And, as Joe points out, real traditional, ground up climbing doesn't truly exist anymore. Just so much as thinking about sport climbing ruins it.)
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 11:22am PT
|
Karl wrote:Show me any legendary hardman and I'll show you somebody who probably added a bolt to a climb via the devil's details department.
Most great climbs have been done by somewhat dubious means...Jim Erickson..."On the Rocks".
The purtian ways/thinking of some trad-climbers cracks me the f*#k up!!!
|
|
Broken
climber
Texas
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 11:49am PT
|
Fracture wrote: "Don't be ridiculous, Joseph. An FA of a climbing route has nothing in common with painting or composing, regardless of how much you want to pretend it does. The only situation in which you could really consider routes artistic "creations" on anything remotely approaching that level is if the route is fully chipped and manufactured."
This is true in a sense, since the rock is already there. However, I think the analogy has some validity when it comes to permanent protection on a run-out climb - the spacing of protection in the context of the climbing between could be seen as a piece of art.
However, I could see how choice of line on a big face could also bear some semblance to art.
And while a repeat is never the same as the FA, we can appreciate a degree of what they went through when we do the route ourselves. Climbing is unique in this aspect. There are few other sports (or whatever you want to call it) where you can do this.
You can't repeat a superstar's action in a team sport. The fact that so many kids fantasize about this in the backyard shows how powerful it can be.
If you take away the history of climbing by making all routes "safer," you eliminate this element.
And, actually, I think there are some parts of the music analogy that apply. When you play a piece written by someone else (or sung), you can catch a glimpse of the emotional/creative ride they went on during the creation.
Similarly, you can marvel that the FA stood on that nubbin long enough to place a bolt when you barely feel secure enough to take a hand off and clip-in.
And then when you cast off upwards, uncertain of what's above, you can share a little bit of the past and put yourself through a similar test to that which the FA underwent.
|
|
Broken
climber
Texas
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 11:55am PT
|
Fracture-
How would you feel if someone chipped a sport climb or boulder problem you revere down to an "attainable" level?
What if Realization was chipped down to 5.13b?
There are many people that would have a similar feeling if bolts were added to the B-Y / Perilous Journey.
Either action destroys the climb - even though each climb would be climbable by many more people.
This analogy is not totally invalid.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 12:14pm PT
|
Fracture, our extreme difference of opinion over whether FA's are art or not is very much part of the heart of the argument here. Not only are FA's art, they are an art that keeps on giving being both a piece of original work and then providing a unique experience to every one who subsequently climbs the route. High art indeed, but it's fundamentally a different discussion for a separate thread.
Oh, and some of us still put up routes exactly the same way we ever did - ground up, no previewing, cleaning on lead. The only affect thinking about sport climbing has on me is to redouble my appreciation for trad climbing. That and raising my curiosity about an equation that might (on an annual basis) juxtapose the number of bolts per pitch, total bolts installed, and the number of new routes against the annual tidal flow of gyms (the number of climbers who both start and stop climbing each year) since the first gym was built. Basically something that would give you a sense of the number of bolts per climber served each year. It would also be interesting to see the longevity / attrition stats the day folks first walk into a gym. In short, how many bolts and new routes does it take to sustain the industry.
The necessary annual output of a ceaseless stream of risk-free bolted routes and crags to feed that annual tidal flow is the very definition of consumerism and it's associated costs. That crags are now developed wholesale, sometimes with little more than passing consideration for individual routes beyond their contribution to the mix of the developers 'portfolio', is just so antithetical to all the reasons I climb as to almost defy description. I live to obsess over the potential of each individual line be they FA's or not; I climb purely for what each line offers with little or no thought of the route before or after it. But hey, that's clearly just me...
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 12:20pm PT
|
This idea that skills gained through sport climbing techniques taint your trad ascents is kind of like saying a musician who practices scales and technique is tainted if they venture into jazz improvisation. I mean sure, it's an argument one can make. But it's silly.
The best climbers I know are, like great musicians, athletes, etc., diversified in their approach. Sport, trad, boulders, mountains, walls, gyms, they're all part of the game. It seems to me that these days trad, sport, ground up and top down are all alive and well.
Personally I like doing it ground up. I find the process challenging and exciting. I do it in places which are well suited to such an approach. And while I would discourage someone from showing up at an established ground up area and commencing to rap bolt a bunch of lines, I also would not show up at a place where rap bolting is the best way to establish good lines and start trying some goofy ground up sh*t. I'd just start clippin' bolts and have fun.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 12:21pm PT
|
HealyJ wrote
"And that's 'consumptive' as in consuming rock with bolts. The Pandora aspect of the impact of gyms and sport climbing has been to generate a reality distortion field of denial over the entire sport. That is evidenced by sport climbers who in general simply dimiss as non-existent many intangible aspects of rock prized by trad climbers. LNT and reverence of stone were swiftly, summarily, and sacrificially dispatched in the early 80's as sport climbing necessarily commoditized rock."
As human beings we are all infected with a "reality distortion field of denial"
* John Muir herded sheep in Yosemite Valley
*The first climbing pioneers scarred the cracks forever with pins when, if they could have just waited for, or dreamed up better methods, we'd have perfect cracks forever.
*Climbing El Cap with lots of Copperheads is unsustainable and damaging and repeated hammering of many kinds has turned many classic big wall lines into forever scared tragedies within a couple decades.
The present generation has no monopoly on selfishly using the rock for their own purposes.
The idealization of the past is a illusion.
The ego game has merely shifted from risk and boldness to difficulty.
Even with that, ironcally, many more folks are taking huge whippers in the course of their projects than were ever dreamed of in the age of boldness. Examples would be Dean Potter working that Utah crack, the 5.14 crack recently sent in Canada, and Skinner taking huge whippers working Wet Denim Daydream, which he installed retrobolts on.
The willngness to actually take these rides, rather than just risk them but avoid them by climbing well below your level, has been a contribution of sport climbing applied to trad climbing.
Just trying to be objective here. I never drilled a sport bolt, and i suck a sport climbing.
Peace
Karl
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 12:41pm PT
|
Broken gets it.
One of the differences between sports and most arts is the artifacts arts leave behind. Looking at "10 to 12" as an artifact doesn't tell you much of anything about a game; you don't know how much energy, drive, dedication, skill, or emotion went into that result. But looking at the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, hearing Beethoven's 5th, or standing at the bottom of the first pitch of the Naked Edge have a lot in common - you get an immediate and visceral sense of both the genius of the endeavor and some insight into the creativity and dedication of the artists responsible for those creations.
Nothing in common you say? Well, I guess it does depend on how you look at it I guess...
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 01:13pm PT
|
I don't think the art analogy is particularly good. Climbing is it's own issue and plain enough that we don't need metaphors that don't work.
But I'll use it anyway
The issue that climbers are going to wrestle with in the future, assuming climbing stays popular and the world has a reasonable future, is this:
The "art" has been painted on public canvases and not all canvases are created equal. The best canvases were taken by the early artists, whether they cared for the people who would view their art in the future or not.
Whatever your values are regarding preservation of this old art, you better articulate them in ways that folks two generations from now will understand and respect or they will get tagged whether we like it or not.
A blanket approach is unlikely to be swallowed by kids 40 years from now, staring at some 5.9 face with one bolt nor no bolts per pitch. That's like telling them, "A drugs are equally fatal and deadly."
The "abstinence only" attitude is wildly promulgated but is already wildly ignored and the new bolts accepted if they fit within the community's value systems. The chief examples being bolt anchors replacing trees and pins, and bolts added to aid climbs by free climbers. (which mostly get condemned if overdone but not if a big enough hero does it.)
That's why I think a first ascent registry is a good idea. So when somebody thinks about retrobolting your line in 2025, they'll be able to read your words and think twice.
That is if we haven't created an everyday epic in this world
Peace
karl
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 01:22pm PT
|
"* The first climbing pioneers scarred the cracks forever with pins when, if they could have just waited for, or dreamed up better methods, we'd have perfect cracks forever.
*Climbing El Cap with lots of Copperheads is unsustainable and damaging and repeated hammering of many kinds has turned many classic big wall lines into forever scared tragedies within a couple decades.
The present generation has no monopoly on selfishly using the rock for their own purposes. "
Karl,
There is no doubt about those facts, but I come from an in-between generation born and bred of LNT and the clean manifesto far from the Valley - I didn't idealize that clean past - I lived it. Had I climbed in the Valley then my perspective might have been different, but I doubt it given I learned to climb literally days after coming off two years saturated with human destruction in Vietnam. But that past has always made me all the more incredulous to watch the rise of a new generation sport climbing rush to embrace exactly the destructive compromises of the generation before mine. Climbers prior to clean climbing didn't exactly have a lot of options besides pins - if you wanted to climb it was either pins or don't climb. Sport climbing on the otherhand has always an optional activity and one wholly dependent on defacing rock.
And again, it commodifies rock as simply a necessary canvas for expression rather than something that deserves respect for the state you found it in. Is sport climbing going away? Not likely, but I do find it a shame that folks are now so far removed from even the concept of pristine rock that they don't acknowledge, appreciate, or respect those tangible and intangible qualities being lost with every successive bolt. Sport climbing has about the same relationship with rock and the concepts of treading lightly as suburban America has with Native American culture - a quaint, but necessary sacrifice, seldom acknowledged and widely denigrated so as to not have to face the reality of what occured.
"The ego game has merely shifted from risk and boldness to difficulty."
Well, that will be a game with short-lived horizon given we are hitting the wall of the limits of human body mechanics. Sort of like there are limits to how fast a human can swim or run. You might eek out a 5.16 some day, but who's gonna claim a 5.17 on the basis of pure difficulty as opposed to just a string of lesser moves? Maybe at that point we'll see a return to a discipline of boldness as the only way to differentiate egos.
"Even with that, ironcally, many more folks are taking huge whipper in the course of their projects than were ever dreamed of in the age of boldness. "
You're kidding right? Oh, I forgot, no one took long falls in the '70s on a regular basis. I somehow seem to remember thirty and forty foot falls as being almost pedestrian. Hell, Breashears and an endless retinue of Eldo contemporaries alone were logging some pretty serious and vicious air time as I recall. And no doubt John could verify no one in the Gunks was taking big dives on those old rattly nuts back in the '70s...
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 01:37pm PT
|
Healyj wrote
"Even with that, ironcally, many more folks are taking huge whipper in the course of their projects than were ever dreamed of in the age of boldness. "
You're kidding right? Oh, I forgot, no one took long falls in the '70s on a regular basis. I somehow seem to remember thirty and forty foot falls as being almost pedestrian. Hell, Brashears and an endless retinue of Eldo contemporaries alone were logging some pretty serious and vicious air time as I recall. And no doubt John could verify no one in the Gunks was taking big dives on those old rattly nuts back in the '70s..."
I'm not saying big falls didn't happen, but I doubt repeated 60-70 footers like I was referring to were very common. I mostly know Yosemite and can't speak for those other areas. I am saying that boldness is far from dead.
Both boldness and difficulty seem to have limits. Get bold enough and a few folks die and others back off. Wanna see real access problems? Get bold enough that folks get regularly hurt and killed.
The pendulum swings back and forth. It would be easier to patch some 1990s bolt holes than repair the pin scars of the past. Climbing will value something else someday. How about naked, rhythmnic ascents?
Of course, both sport climbers and old trad climber have always have the option of saving the stone for better tech or better skills. Neither can resist. Perhaps sport climbing is like publishing on the internet. It allows more and less talented people to be heard. A bad and good thing in my mind.
I'm more worried about our world/energy/economic/environmental situation spoiling the rockclimbing 50 years from now than sport climbers.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Broken
climber
Texas
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 02:06pm PT
|
Sport as art is an argument that has been explored extensively, no doubt.
healyje - I agree that climbing can fit that in a certain, limited context.
The Naked Edge is a beautiful and artistic line. However, it is hard for me to see that as human formed art (some would call it God, I would call it nature, geology, whatever).
That, I think, is the major problem with rock as a canvas. Beautiful climbs are dependent on a medium that is inherently beautiful, without human intervention.
Climbing is the only sport where we can come close to comparing ourselves to those who've gone before. Chipping and retro-bolting ruin that aspect of climbing. A Red Sox fan can dream of Pedro Martinez facing Babe Ruth. But it can never come close to happening.
In climbing, however, the routes are THERE. And you can know the climber who was there before you through that route. And you can know about other climbers you meet when they discuss their experiences on that route.
If routes become free to change on a relative whim, then they lose their constancy and we lose our past.
(yes, i am aware that routes degrade and become polished and pins scars widen - but you get my point)
|
|
Broken
climber
Texas
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 02:11pm PT
|
There is a wonderful article that is somewhat relevant here.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/sports/playmagazine/20federer.html?ex=1313726400&en=716968175e36505e&ei=5090
It is long and may or may not appeal to a non-tennis or non-organized sports fan.
I cannot climb like John Bachar, just like I cannot play tennis like Roger Federer. So I can't experience either of their sports realities in the same way.
The difference, however, is that I can do a route like the B-Y and have a little bit of an experiential glimpse of what he was like as a climber.
And that glimpse can lead to inspiration in my own climbing life.
That is one of climbing's many gifts.
EDIT:
(footnote on that article - There are many footnotes worth reading marked during the text. Part of what some call David Foster Wallace's annoying style. You have to have a nytimes password - not the one you pay for, the free one - to read them. If someone wants to read them and doesn't want to sign up for some reason, let me know.)
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 02:28pm PT
|
I can see where climbing can be considered an art, using the term in a broad sense. A climber can be said to have done a route “artfully.” I would take this to mean something a step beyond simply “skillfully,” which would mean safely and successfully. For example I've watched Bachar solo a lot. He, in my eyes, was expressing more through the nature of his movement than simply what was required to do the route solidly, and this subtle dimension makes his climbing a pleasure to watch.
Climbing as a performance art? Is not the level of boldness (and other choices in the realm of style) of a first ascent an expression of the climber’s ideals?
Sometimes I think of climbing as a decorative art. When those bright colored double ropes are running just perfectly and all the gear goes in just right… Kind of Christo-esque in a way.
Defining what is and isn't art in our lives is tricky. I would argue that living well is an art. Certainly climbing well is.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 02:39pm PT
|
"The Naked Edge is a beautiful and artistic line. However, it is hard for me to see that as human formed art (some would call it God, I would call it nature, geology, whatever)."
Broken,
I don't know, I think the analogy works fine and would reply that Michelangelo didn't build the Sistine Chapel - he just painted on it. Similarly, the the Naked Edge was 'painted' on an equally magnificent, though natural, canvas.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 02:53pm PT
|
Joe wrote: I don't know, I think the analogy works fine and would reply that Michelangelo didn't build the Sistine Chapel - he just painted on it. Similarly, the the Naked Edge was 'painted' on an equally magnificent, though natural, canvas.
Yes and they used pins and bolts to do the painting. If fact...a lot of the old aid lines that were freed in Eldo used pins and bolts left from the FA.
When I did the Naked Edge back in 1979...you could almost call it a sport climb.
Joe wrote: You're kidding right? Oh, I forgot, no one took long falls in the '70s on a regular basis. I somehow seem to remember thirty and forty foot falls as being almost pedestrian. Hell, Breashears and an endless retinue of Eldo contemporaries alone were logging some pretty serious and vicious air time as I recall. And no doubt John could verify no one in the Gunks was taking big dives on those old rattly nuts back in the '70s...
I don't remember them (long falls) being pedestrian in the Gunks or Eldo...In fact, most of the routes being freed had fixed gear close the crux moves.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 03:07pm PT
|
Bob,
You'd certainly be a better judge of Eldo history than I. Maybe I just got lucky sitting at the top of Rain two feet from Breashears as he took not one, but two bloody sixty footers. His only comment to Wunsch in between them when Steve asked if he was going to do it again was, 'yeah, now that I know that nut's going to hold...'. Neither treated the falls with any particular note or angst on talking with them immediately afterwards.
|
|
randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 03:17pm PT
|
I'm young (mid 20s) and establish routes ground up. Where does that leave me? In the cool club ( ground up) or in the uncool club ( young, w/ no respect)? Because as I read these posts I feel that a) either you are old and do ground up or b) you are young and could give a f*#k about ground up. Personally, I feel that ground up is a better experience, and yes more adventure...but if someone rapbolts a route that is their decision since the are the FA party and that is their buisness.
To each his own...
-JR
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 03:34pm PT
|
"Floggings will continue until morale improves".
One overlooked thing is that those who simply want to experience the moves of a route, without experiencing its challenge, can always top rope it. It may not always be convenient, but it's often possible with a bit of effort. Leading a fully (retro) bolted route may not be much more adventuresome than toproping it - but either is a far different experience from leading the route as it was created.
Not that I necessarily want to encourage top-roping, or, in its extreme form, "running laps". Another behaviour that bears examination, for the resulting polishing, route-hogging (territoriality), and (sometimes) disrespect for the rock. The polishing and route-hogging have immediate impacts on our community that are of concern.
There are many routes that I won't toprope (I'll follow them, of course), and many that are very pleasant that I'll only do occasionally, to preserve the experience.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 03:45pm PT
|
It is worth mentioning. I like soloing and I like top roping. Both are minimal impact.
A better acceptance of top roping might have saved some crags from many bolts
peace
Karl
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 04:19pm PT
|
So when I mentioned top-roping two weeks ago, you guys treated me like I was smoking crack.
It's alright, I forgive you...
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 04:22pm PT
|
Yeah, saving cliff tops and multipitch aside, if it really is just about movement and difficulty and not about boldness than I've never understood the fascination with clipping. Why wouldn't it be viewed as yet another fiddling distraction just like trad protection? Yet somehow it ended up imbuded as essential despite the fact that it contributes nothing to the movement, next to nothing to difficulty, and hardly passes muster as a "skill". Top roping on steep terrain has in common with bouldering the inability to dog and the attending need to "think on the fly" that comes with that.
|
|
Anastasia
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 05:37pm PT
|
Randomtask,
You are in the cool club because your actions respect our old hard men. If you are ever going to be in Mammoth, email us. I would be honored to climb with ya'.
AF
|
|
randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 06:23pm PT
|
anastasia,
Thank you for the offer to climb. If I am over there ( other than snowboarding!!) I will e mail you to climb. Same goes to you if you are over on the Southern Yosemite side and want to climb. There's plenty of rock waiting for ground up FAs.!! Peace,
-JR
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 06:57pm PT
|
There's been a lot of calls to respect what was done in the past in run-out face climbing but precious few who are still actually doing the climbs! Even the ones who could and claim to value it.
Perhaps Eldo and Looking Glass are exceptions but I've never climbed there.
Stoners get's lots of ascents but it's only horrifying up high in a few places and not death dealing. Perhaps the right balance was struck there.
Even Bachar Yerian won't likely kill you and a fair number of 5.13 climbers go tick that one. (Bolts have been upgraded/replaced but not added)
Peace
karl
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 08:16pm PT
|
What the heck is there still to talk about?
Either you can do a climb the way somebody else did, or you can't. And if you can't, what in the hell gives you the right to not let anybody else try?
You claim that the old dads are ego tripping, but it is you demanding that you're good enough now, and don't see any benefit in trying to improve.
With every passing post you illustrate that you just don't get it, and have no respect for anyone but yourself.
And it's 'martial arts'
So keep talking, maybe some day you'll say something intelligent...
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 08:53pm PT
|
El Cap Fool writes:
Either you can do a climb the way somebody else did, or you can't. And if you can't, what in the hell gives you the right to not let anybody else try?
bolded by me to agree loudly!
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 09:00pm PT
|
Since you are so hung up on accurate analogies,
The relevant question is how many did I add?
On FA's? 3.
On repetes? That would be none.
Ditto on trenching.
I replaced a few rivets and bolts, but that is different.
Until you've hauled 2 bags on equalized hooks,
You need to pipe down.
Since we're checking resumes, How many natural belays have you built? How many times have you tied ropes together to reach a spot to make a natural belay.
Who the hell do you think you're talking to?
edit-
"Everyone has the right to skip bolts they don't think they need. You can try Henious Cling the way Jonny Woodward did it back in the day, just take a stack of rp's and have at it."
Someday you'll realize the flaw in that logic, and when you do, you're going to feel like an idiot.
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 09:00pm PT
|
Right...but not ability. A bolt on a route is part of everyone's experience who climbs that route. Whether they choose to use it or not, they have to spend some part of their climb looking at and considering hardware instead of rock.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 09:08pm PT
|
"Everyone has the right to skip bolts they don't think they need."
Going on 400 posts and you roll out the lamest of the bankrupt arguments proffered by 'safe climbing' apologists? That pretty well wraps it up if we're down to that one...
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 09:14pm PT
|
Did I get 400?
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 09:15pm PT
|
Woohoo!
|
|
landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 09:15pm PT
|
Solo, everthing else is a compromise.rg
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 09:19pm PT
|
I could be argued that just as the "you can just skip bolts" argument is questionable, so, in many cases is the argument that the issue is about "geting better" and waiiting until "you're ready" for some of these climbs.
In some cases, the issue is, even if you are good enough, are you prepared to be killed or maimed if you get a cramp, hit by a big pebble, or step on some sand? Some of the stuff in question (not BY which folks have whipped and been Ok on) is just death.
So, somewhere down the line in the history of the sport, folks are going to ask, how much contrived forced soloing do we permit the stone to locked up with? I don't know what they will answer. My answer is to leave it alone but ask the question before it's too late to have an influence.
If you are a 5.13 climber and some 5.11 climber dies on your 5.9 no bolt pitch, will you feel "Tough, they knew the risk" or "Hmm, maybe I took raised the bar a little too high for that particular bit of stone"
Peace
Karl
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 09:24pm PT
|
"how much contrived forced soloing"
Sorry...but soloing is less contrived than a climb with any bolts on it at all. And there ain't no one forcing no one else to go do any climb. It's a personal choice that some folks want to make precisely because it less them push their limits with a minimum of contrivance.
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 09:28pm PT
|
I've posted my real name several times.
And I have actively avoided fame, so I don't care you've never heard of me, that's the way I want it.
Are we to take that to mean your real name is Wesley Christ?
Look dude, you're just wrong. You don't know it yet, but wisdom is earned. I'm not saying you're going to have an epiphany and repent all at once, but you're either going to die young, or live to regret this attitude.
I'm all done with you, you just make me angry.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 09:31pm PT
|
I get the distinct feeling Todd is laughing at us...
|
|
Melvin Mills
Trad climber
Albuquerque NM
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 09:41pm PT
|
Lots of silly chest beating on this thread. I have no problem with rap-bolted sport climbs if that is the ethic of the crag. I also put up routes ground-up in the areas where that is the ethic. This also happens to work out well as my local area (Sandias) granite tends to be sh#t on the last 50-100' at the top of the formations. Repeated raps through vertical death cookies to access a route for rap-bolting sucks and thus the ground-up ethic makes lots of sense.
That said it is time-consuming (the last two routes took a year each) and scary to do routes ground-up. Since our rock is less bullet than other areas the fear is as much for your belayer getting wiped out by falling rock as for yourself falling while leading. Even with the slow pace and fear it remains the most satisfying and adventuresome way to put up a new route. There is never a lack of adventure and that is something that you hope all other climbers repeating the route can appreciate (though they never quite will have the same feeling of not knowing what is coming up). Even after completing pitches ground-up I try to think about whether a pitch needs any fixed gear (if we did it without) and if it does I have no problem placing it on rappel.
The crappiest thing that can occur while putting up routes ground-up is if you do botch a bolt placement due to fear, a shitty stance, whatever. If this occurs, it is worth thinking long and hard about what you have just done and be prepared to add, move, or remove a bolt or pin to make to make better route. Nothing sucks worse than fixed pro that is poorly placed due to doing something stupid on lead and then thinking the botch job will just end being your legacy.
All of this being equal, you hope you learn more with each new route and constantly improve your style and strive for something more. I am still blown away by the folks who preceded me in this area and I hope to live up to their best examples.
PS I hope the vertical death cookie description keeps everyone off my undone new lines.
Hasta, Guillermo.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 11:22pm PT
|
"Agreed. This is the way to go. If you don't like the bolts, don't clip them.
The botch jobs are slowly getting weeded out, meanwhile the free soloists still get to have all the challenge and danger they want. ""
Oh my, it's the double dog dare of 'don't clip'em' AND 'just free solo instead'. That's twice the innanity and cluelessness from the 'climbing absolutely must be safe at any cost' crowd. Once again, maybe consider equipping routes with a few internal resources before leaping for your drill.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 11:37pm PT
|
Nice post Hedge. I more or less agree with you.
I'm of the mind to let the community deal with things in time and take no action myself, but I think you stated the case.
Peace
karl
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 11:51pm PT
|
Wow - score one for the gridbolters! Karl goes over to the dark side and joins the crew who wants to grid bolt everything and then tell those throwbacks still interested in "adventure" to just clip every third one or none at all. I'm impressed.
[ Edit: 'Safe climbing' - one of the few oxymorons to enable an entire industry. I remain unimpressed and unmoved as I consider it an 'access' issue - as in gridbolted outdoor clipjoints make the vertical world accessible to an extremely large population of folks who would otherwise not be there at all - the sheer numbers are the access problem. Selfish, misanthropic, and extreme I know, but I make no apologies whatsoever for preferring that climbing had never been drilled into submission to entertain bored, risk-averse suburbanites. Bottom line? 'Pedestrian' is just not something I thought would ever acquire a vertical context. ]
[ Double-Dog Edit: When does the via ferrata go up on the Nose? I'd like to be there for the inaugural... ]
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2006 - 11:56pm PT
|
Reserving this post to reply to healyj when I don't have a mouth full of food.
Peace
karl
Edit:
Geez HealyJ, That's a stretch I didn't think you'd make. I was mostly agreeing with Hedge that
1. It's a bit spurious to honor the FAs of guys climbing so far below their limit. I'm basically a 5.10 climbing and I've free soloed some 5.7-5.8 probably virgin terrain. I wouldn't expect others to do the same or leave the rock vacant for eternity because I was there.
2. That routes are already changing, that it's accepted at the level it's happening, and thats reality.
The controversial part that I think may be for the future as the community changes is this one from Hedge
"It ends at the point where you're neither hysterically pro or anti bolt. Sane Compromise. If the FA'er climbs 2 or 3 number grades harder than the death route they put up, and it's a proud, outstanding line that would otherwise be getting hundreds of ascents a year, then retrobolt it just enough so you're not going to die. "
Just so "you're not going to die" is a far cry from grid bolting. A lot more bold climbing would get done if it went from a suicide mission to a boldness, hope you don't break something mission.
Let's be clear and not join Wes in stirring things up for the sake of hyperbole
peace
Karl
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Karl,
The problem I have with it all is basically that humans suck at moderation. Think of chalk - does it get used in moderation, only as necessary? Check. Dogging? First started out something folks did to establish new difficulty ratings and routes that weren't yielding any other way at the time; next thing you know dogging is how you climb 5.5. Bolting only the 'botched' FA's? You know exactly how that would play out - five years out every twenty foot 'runout' in the country would become a 'Bosched' pitch. People only propose moderation - they execute with extreme excess. In reality the only places being protected from grid bolting are those under the tight control of public of private land managers.
|
|
atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
|
|
"but I make no apologies whatsoever for preferring that climbing had never been drilled into submission to entertain bored, risk-averse suburbanites."
Wow. I cant beleive the routes that friends and I put up with bolts were just to keep us suburban (Prescott, SLC, Tahoe) pussys entertained... We really thought we were doing something great. Sheesh, what a waste. I quit...
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
The main problem with re-equipping old established routes with additional bolts is that that particular route is then "dumbed down" for every future ascentionist of that route, for ever.
Currently, each climber who walks up to the base of an established climbing route that has less than ideal protection must ask himself if he is up to the task of leading the route in question. Once additional fixed gear has been added to a route, that decision has unilaterally been made for every subsequent climber by another person.
Would Wes like me (or anyone else) to be the one who makes that decision for him? I bet not.
Curt
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
Where are you from healyje? Because this statement seems way off base: "In reality the only places being protected from grid bolting are those under the tight control of public or private land managers."
But maybe that describes where you live - I sure hope it doesn't.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
HealyJ
Grid bolting doesn't begin to describe where I climb, Yosemite and TM mostly. There are no restictions on bolt except they must be hand drilled.
And of course the community general standards. If something is too out of line, it will be removed.
Works Ok here even though we have wars from time to time. That 's likely to be the way it will play out in the future. There's nothing to stop somebody from turning a death route on Daff Dome into an R or a PG except community standards and peer pressure.
Peace
karl
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Greg,
Ironically I'm here in Oregon - sport climbing central. But, the Gunks and Eldo come to mind right off the bat as places that are well protected - one by private land managers and the other by public ones. And from what I've seen around the country there are few places where there isn't a dramatic amount of sport routes going up and bolting going on unless they are in private hands or being protected by strict climbing management plans. Outside of a few places I can think of like the Valley, North Carolina, or Cathederal/Cannon where locals keep things honest my perception is most of the places being protected form ergious sport bolting are those places under the purvey of well-developed climbing management plans and most of those got 'well-developed' after significant bolt skirmishes or other significant threats to climbing. I'm not saying I'm right, but I'd love to see what the stats looks like for the total number of new bolts being installed annually for the past twenty years and can guess how steep the curve of that graph might be. Where should I believe are all those new bolts going?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Weschrist - sorry, you're wrong and we'll have to agree to disagree. As I just said, your "botched FA's" would quickly become "Bosched FA's" if they exhibited any significant runouts and folks like you had their way. You have relentlessly promoted safe climbing at every turn. One can only guess how you define "risk", but let's not now claim that isn't the case. And to be honest, given we can't seem to get any sense as to whether you've ever put up an FA, it's hard to even guess your real 'standing' to be playing the strident devil's advocate here. You certainly carry water for the risk-free climbing and what you let slip tells me you do so honestly with a deeply held conviction climbing should be safe.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
Bummer that you see things that way healyje - for me, I see most rock untouched by anyone, some sport crags developed (mostly close to the road), respect for ground-up route development, respect for the FA regardless of how the route was done, and restraint from gridbolting even in sport climbing centers like Owens.
But then again, this area has a whole hell of a lot of rock. A lot of these arguments seem to be based on areas with limited rock.
Your view is scary to me - I would never look to land management agencies to regulate anything intelligently, despite the best efforts of the many good people employed by such agencies.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Greg,
So you think Eldo is being managed badly? I'm not saying that land managers are doing a great job outside of a few select venues - I'm saying I'd rather see them managing trad areas before seeing them bolted and the attending bolt wars that would erupt once again otherwise. And yes, the West has more untapped rock than the Midwest or East. But even here outside of a few folks marching column by column down a hundred thousand splitters in central Oregon almost all the new development is sport.
Again, my views may be misanthropic and extreme, but while rooted in a LNT and trad heritage they have less to do sport climbing per se and more to do with the exponential numbers of climbers enabled by it. Let's not kid ourselves, the real access problem is the sheer numbers, not behavior. Sorry, I just don't think 'more is better' when it comes to our population.
And I consider extrapolating forward based on the view in the rearview mirror to be a fairly valid activity and, again, where are all the new bolts going? Ten or twenty years out how many via ferratas will there be in the U.S.? How many competitive High School climbing teams? How many gyms? How many more Ignorant Blisses? How many more bolt wars? Maybe I'm just a pessimist and everything will turn out fine - but in this case I'll wait and see before I believe it.
[ Edit: It would be an interesting experiment to simply open up Laurel Knob with absolutely no fixed pro restrictions and see what happens... ]
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Weschrist, you're right, my contrast control is clearly broken because when I see 'reducing X routes to R or PG' all I see is the very definition and top of the steep slope of gridbolting. We clearly have different adrenaline thresholds, who knows, maybe we like the same beer.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
Adding protection bolts to established runout horror shows is the same thing as removing bolts from routes deemed too cushy. Whatever is there has been said. Leave it alone, make your statement on your own FA, if you can. If you can't, then go climbing. Editing someone else's route is not a valid option.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Jaybro wrote
"Adding protection bolts to established runout horror shows is the same thing as removing bolts from routes deemed too cushy. Whatever is there has been said. Leave it alone, make your statement on your own FA, if you can. If you can't, then go climbing. Editing someone else's route is not a valid option."
Just so you're clear, does that mean we should chop the bolts on the changing corners pitch on the Nose or just disapprove?
Peace
Karl
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
Wes - "All you see is what you want you are willing to see. "
As I have said earlier, you are free to go out and do what you will. When you have done it I can see what you are about, and I can offer you a judgement at that time. Maybe I'll even change my mind. But all this chatting on the ST Forum is just that, talk is cheap, put your convictions into play and let the community judge for itself.
In climbing I'd say there are no rules chissled into stone. There are not immutable laws. There is no absolute right or wrong, good or bad.
There is action, and reaction. The FA of even a botched route is action...
this is all talk...
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
"So you think Eldo is being managed badly?" I have no idea, never climbed east of Castleton tower. I'm basing my view on many years of both climbing and non-climbing-related issues in the west.
I don't think things are nearly as bad as you seem to think. There don't seem to be more climbers around the areas I go than there were 10 years ago (OK, definitely more boulderers...). I can still go do super-classic easy routes like Monkey's Face, Royal Arches, and Fairview Dome, even on weekends. The sport climbing areas have more people on easy routes but fewer people on harder routes (hard being only 5.10+ and up) than 10 years ago.
A lot of people said the same thing with mountain biking - hordes, crowds, resource degradation - then the fad crashed and mountain biking just isn't the hot thing anymore.
Even sport climbing is scary and dangerous for the gym crowd - and gyms are scary for most folks. I just don't think climbing will ever get to be that popular. People are afraid of heights.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Hopefully John will forgive me for cross posting this quip from a post of his on the 'runout' thread, but it fairly succinctly sums the whole "Bosched FA's" topic.
Largo: "The idea that all climbs are supposed to be "safe," meaning anyone has a right to try them with no consequence if they muff it, is a relatively new one, born from sport climbing's clip and go protection. In our time, "safety" was mostly a matter of what a leader had betwen his ears and between his legs--mental control and sack. In other words, a leader took full responsibility for his actions out on the sharp end. And if things went wrong, he didn't blame others for not considring, thirty five years prior, that he might get up there and fly off. "
|
|
Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
|
|
“Climbing is inherently dangerous and the risk of death or serious injury can never be completely eliminated. It is up to each individual to make his or her own choices regarding acceptable risk.” - Disclaimer
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Largo wrote "Adding protection bolts to established runout horror shows is the same thing as removing bolts from routes deemed too cushy."
then Hedge wrote "Which I have no problem with either.'
I have problems with both, unless the routes are extreme.
At the extreme bolted end, the routes already get chopped around here. On the other side, if a route is in the 5.10 or below range and only gets's climbed once every 10-20 years or less, then I hardly even consider it "established" and it belongs in the inappropriate range of the over-bolt- botched job.
peace
Karl
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
I heard a joke this morning that somehow seems appropriate:
"If someone scares the hell out of you, shouldn't you be thankful?"
Buzz
|
|
Murf
climber
|
|
Okay, we can agree to disagree, if for no other reason than the fact that you simply refuse to accept the difference between reducing X routes to R or PG and gridbolting. Enjoy your black and white world view.
The FA Tradition is basically a barrier to chaos. I think most understand that, and the comment, "Only one person is happy with the lowest common denominator", sort of personifies it.
Wes, you want to increase fixed protection to some level you, or some consensus you want to build, decide. The problem is when the next person decides that you were incorrect in your consensus and decides to refix it, to her level. Are you going to confront this next person who decides to fix your fixed route?
I've never run out of routes that I felt capable of doing. Why would I need to modify existing routes? There's plenty out there to do myself if I'm so driven.
Wes you seem to feel this issue so ardently. What routes specifically do you wish to fix? I've read a whole lot of posturing out of you, but very little specific info.
Murf
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
The FA Tradition is basically a barrier to chaos....
Well put, and I think weschrist realises this.
...I've read a whole lot of posturing out of you, but very little specific info.
That's because he's bored and just stirring the pot.
|
|
Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
Healyje,
I have to respond about Eldo and say that community based bolting bans are not the answer to preserving traditional ethics. Eldo has been dumbed down considerably in the last 10 years, and every year we see multiple applications for bolted anchors to "make it safer". I think the only thing that is going to preserve a traditional ethic are the people right here who have strong enough convictions to stand up to the "Safety Police".
As I see it in climbing we all have choices, and our own personal style. I think we should all try to respect each other because in time opinions change. Those advocating safetification might in time come to respect run-outs, but guess what.....it might be too late. The important thing is to realize that we are just one (actually more) generation of climbers with our own ideas of right and wrong. Tomorrow there will be another generation with it's own ideas. If you are really passionate about maintaining a traditional ethic the best thing you can do is share/teach someone from the next generation.
As I came into climbing from a sport climbing backround I used to HATE runout slabs, but now that is one of my favorite types of climbing. It is amazing how your perspective can change over a decade. After you have been climbing long enough, difficulty alone is not enough to keep the fire going, and you turn to adventure climbing to find your Zen.
Climbing itself is a individualistic persuit, and as such will always attract people with polar opposite points of view. Let's try to respect and celebrate those differences vs. condemning them. There is room in this world for many different points of view.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
|
|
"...I've never run out of routes that I felt capable of doing. Why would I need to modify existing routes? There's plenty out there to do myself if I'm so driven..."
Murf, I feel exactly the same way.
There's been a lot of talk about "sac" on this thread. Personally I think sometimes it can show more sac to bail off or walk away from some route, especially in front of others, than it would take to add some bolts.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
When I first when to do Jules Vernes I didn't look at the route as being a mistake for lack of protection...I wondered if I was good enoung to climb it the way Steve Wunsch did.
We need routes like Jules Vernes...to show us what some climbers are capable of doing when they put their mind and body to task.
|
|
Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
|
|
I have to respond about Eldo and say that community based bolting bans are not the answer to preserving traditional ethics. Eldo has been dumbed down considerably in the last 10 years, and every year we see multiple applications for bolted anchors to "make it safer".
Kevster - You are right on in this regard. The latest travesty being the new rap anchor on the West Face of the Wind Tower so people can avoid a 6 foot downclimb to the existing anchor....My suggestion of removing the unecessary upper anchor so that folks actually had to climb to the top was laughed at.
The reason we have this problem in Eldo "management" is that it's not really a true community based concensus and those in control (ACE and FHRC) are a good old boy club and they now have a little fiefdom they won't let go of. Try submitting your application to serve and see if you get selected. It aint going to happen unless you are "in the club". The general attitude of this club leads to more convenience anchors at the top of popular pitches and more and more convenience rap anchors.
I guess the upside of the current "management" plan is that most of the traffic gets placed on relatively few climbs, leaving the good stuff open for those of us who who don't need our "safety" decided by committe.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
Ecstasy - rap bolted, the runout ego driven, not relevant to this ground-up discussion.
I think most of us consider a rap-bolted runout on a 16-bolt sport pitch contrived in the extreme.
|
|
Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
|
|
No worries...
One of these days, we'll all die off...and you can let your grandkids rap-bolt your 20' test piece
Cheers
RB
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
Kevin wrote: Eldo has been dumbed down considerably in the last 10 years, and every year we see multiple applications for bolted anchors to "make it safer". I think the only thing that is going to preserve a traditional ethic are the people right here who have strong enough convictions to stand up to the "Safety Police".
Funny...Most routes in Eldo have been preserved from the "safety police". Jules Vernes, Scary Canary, Tanquery, Wisdom, Tubesock Tanline, LeVoid...etc...Have Not had Bolts or Pins added since the FA!
Most of the bolted anchors REPLACED existing bad (trees/ratty slings) anchors that were in dire need of a repair!
Bubba wrote: I guess the upside of the current "management" plan is that most of the traffic gets placed on relatively few climbs, leaving the good stuff open for those of us who who don't need our "safety" decided by committe.
In my 30-plus years of climbing in Eldo I have NEVER seen a waiting line or any r or x rated route.
|
|
Tony Puppo
climber
Bishop
|
|
Actually the route in Pine Creek is Eclipsed and if my memory serves me the run out to the arete is GU
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
Hey Tony, I thought that Eclipsed was the 11+ to the right of Sheila.
|
|
Tony Puppo
climber
Bishop
|
|
Greg, You're right of course, I was thinkin'wescrist was taliking about the traverse to the arete on Eclipsed. I wish I could more clearly remember the chronology of the early bolts in Pine Creek. Herbert did not start the bolting on Ecstacy, that was Eric Goukas I believe, Tommy did the redpoint of the route.
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
The point is, that decision has already been made. Made by one person on a resource that is shared by many. The answer is NO, I don't want you, or any ONE, making that decision on your own.
The FA hasn't made any decision for anyone--except himself when he establishes a route. Its pretty clear that adding bolts to an existing route is the defining act that answers the "am I good enough" question for everyone. More precisely, the retrobolter removes this question from the equation altogether when any bumblef*#k can then head up the route, almost guaranteed an amusement park like experience.
Oh well, maybe that's why we boulder. How do you feel about cheater stones and jumping for holds from the ground?
Curt
|
|
Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
|
|
Bob D. - As usual, you fire off a retort without actually reading the statement you are arguing about.
I didn't say that there were wating lines on the R and X rated climbs in Eldo. I said that because there were convenience anchors sprouting up in many places, that the hordes tended to go where the anchors were rather than where there might be better climbing.
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
|
Plenty of it still going on.
Ground up bump
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
|
Hmm, all this time. And I thought it was "grind up."
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
|
Does "water up" count?
|
|
Nate D
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
|
Just had to bump this one on a Mon. morning...
|
|
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
|
I think at the crux of the discussion is whether you feel that a "first ascent" is legitimate way to experience climbing. By that I mean that, for the most part, a ground up first ascent(FA) is a completely different experience than all subsequent ascents. The FA is usually a venture into the unknown and only the first people to climb the route will truly experience that.
However, as John Long pointed out, most of the current generation of climbers don't really see the FA as a different way to experience climbing. They view first ascentionists as "route setters", someone who is doing a community service by creating climbs in a particular area. Along with the idea of community service the only thing they feel is important about the style in which the route was put up was if it was "properly/safely" bolted.
Because of this attitude of "route setting" instead of "doing a first ascent" the current generation of climbers see no problem with adding bolts to existing routes to make them "safer."
Hopefully, the two can coexist and find their own space. One style does not have to triumph over the other. Compromise doesn't mean removing bolts on over-bolted top-down sport routes nor does it mean adding bolts to ground up first ascents.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
|
That's a good point Bruce, and one I can understand for harder sport-type routes where things are Red-Pointed after many attempts. In that case, who cares who "sets" the route, nobody really attempts a no falls, onsight (which is the Trad mindset).
I still believe that a ground-up FA is important in the context of the Trad mindset. I must say that my opinion is not quite as steadfast as it used to be for harder sport-type routes.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
The end result is what really counts. Our climbng rules dictate that the FA holds ownership of the route for life and perhaps longer so I take that responsibility quite seriously. I still do GU when the logistics warrent that style but I will go back and fix any mistakes that I made in the heat of battle. I do usually tend to get it pretty close to right GU but I will not make future climbers suffer from a mistake that I made on the FA. Top down is nice because you do not need a partner. You can go out and work your project with the gri gri, get it cleaned and bolted and ready to climb without subjecting your partner to a 6hr belay session.
|
|
Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
|
|
Ground up will always exist. Some routes demand it!
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
I agree. some routes it is easier to start at the bottom and climb up.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
The end result is what really counts. Our climbng rules dictate that the FA holds ownership of the route for life and perhaps longer so I take that responsibility quite seriously. I still do GU when the logistics warrent that style but I will go back and fix any mistakes that I made in the heat of battle. I do usually tend to get it pretty close to right GU but I will not make future climbers suffer from a mistake that I made on the FA. Top down is nice because you do not need a partner. You can go out and work your project with the gri gri, get it cleaned and bolted and ready to climb without subjecting your partner to a 6hr belay session.
If you can't do a route ground up, leave it for a future generation.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
Hmm, all this time. And I thought it was "grind up."
Ping........
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
Clinker. I can do any of the routes that I am developing ground up.I have nothing to prove in that regard. I choose to do most of them top down simply because I can do a better job and leave a better climb for those who come after me.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
I can't argue with the better job part and Bhilden makes sense as usual with his take. I climb in a choss adventure area, with a ground up or pick a burial spot ethic. The quality of the rock demands it.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 363 of total 363 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!