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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 20, 2016 - 08:20am PT
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That's right, pyro...and that traffic accident that happened down the street from your house last week is proof that traffic signals don't work, and should be abolished.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 20, 2016 - 08:37am PT
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So just how would traffic laws protect us from a murderous person who steals say a Fuel tanker?
Use your imaginations if possible.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 08:39am PT
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Laws don't stop any crimes from being committed
all they do is allow legal prosecution to lock em up
big F ing deal, another criminal just replaces the one in jail, does no good at all
and the US has the highest number of criminals incarcerated
and that sure isn't stopping any new crimes
laws are stupid
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 20, 2016 - 08:44am PT
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That's right, Norton.
The fact that any crime ever happens is direct proof that laws don't work, and therefore they should all be abolished.
That's true freedom after all, right, pyro?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:08am PT
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Apparently murder is illegal, and people still do it
maybe the law doesn't work
maybe we should make it legal, and less people will be murdered
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:21am PT
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Food for thought:
So blackpowder explodes because it is a mixture of sulphur (10%), charcoal (15%) and potassium nitrate (75%).
So is it fair (valid and accurate) to claim charcoal or sulfur do not cause (else, are not responsible for) a black powder explosion?
So that's the kind of expressions we're seeing here, both at ST and across social media. Guaranteed to excite endless debate if that's what folks are after. Apparently many are.
Personally, though, I like accuracy. Esp as means to problem solving personally socially or otherwise.
....
Dems are lucky, imo.
If Trump wasn't such a buffoon, they could lose the election over this ONE issue (not calling out fundamentalist religion; Islamic extremism) as a component factor in this mess - particularly if there is another jihadist attack close to election time. Let's hope there is not for many reasons.
In the meantime libs, all this cover for fundamentalist Islamic extremism doesn't do your lib friends/counterparts in the ME (secular muslims, reform muslims, liberal muslims, "atheist muslims") one bit of good. If you studied this subject matter and tuned into some of the human interest reports concerning them regularly you'd already know that.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:29am PT
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Laws don't stop any crimes from being committed
Sure they do if the person involved isn't a completely unhinged nutcase intent on murderous suicide.
In those, thankfully, rare murder/suicide cases, whatever legislative drivel has been dreamed up doesn't matter a bit. Never will.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:35am PT
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There were constant references to the Confederate flag after the Dylan Roof atrocity in Charleston last year — in which the Obama Justice Department fully participated.
Can't we discuss Radical Islamic terrorism and bigotry the same way as we do with perceived Confederate bigots?
Intellectual honesty is not a virtue of hardcore partisans.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:38am PT
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Intellectual honesty is not a virtue of hardcore partisans.
That's right.
I'm afraid if it were Romney-Ryan this time around instead of Trump-Gingrich the Dems would lose. Over "mental illness"? No.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:44am PT
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fundamentalist Islamic extremism fundamentalist Islamic extremism fundamentalist Islamic extremism fundamentalist Islamic extremism fundamentalist Islamic extremism
There. As a liberal I have said it. No more terrorism, right????
Susan
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:48am PT
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The Mateen outburst: (1) disaffected, due to cluster of "bad" mental traits and states (38%); (2) access to weaponry (gun, bomb material, etc) (33%); inspired by fundamentalist Islam (27%). That's my working assessment. It's not x or y or z. It is x and y and z.
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There. As a liberal I have said it. No more terrorism, right???? -Susan
I can see you bought into the Obama narrative as he expressed it a few days back. :(
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:58am PT
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So tell me, without an expanded vocabulary in these subjects how do we get past the 8th grade conversation, the 8th grade reasoning, and the 8th grade problem solving? My answer: We don't.
Just as we see here. And just as we see across social media.
With increased understanding comes increased nuance and increased need to articulate validly and accurately these nuances. So that's where we are at here.
If one doesn't have Islamist or Islamism in her vocabulary, for eg, how does one parse the difference between Muslim and Islamist or between Islam and Islamism? She doesn't. Instead it's all 'Islam' this or it's all 'Muslim' that - umbrella expressions and thinking guaranteed to lead to misunderstanding and miscommunications.
Any time, even months ago, Obama and Hillary could come before the American public to educate it on these very real nuances. To explain differences in terminology, differences in conceptions, differences in belief, agendas, etc in the Islamic world. But they do not. The have not.
Here take it - one point at least - from a secular, liberal, ex-Muslim....
"But we must accept one key difference, no matter how bitter a pill it is to swallow: Compared to Christians, more Muslims take their religion literally." -Muhammad Syed
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/06/15/after-the-orlando-massacre-we-cannot-ignore-the-connection-between-islam-and-anti-gay-bigotry/
America nor its political left do themselves a net "solid" by ignoring the fundamentalist Islamic factor in the mix. Not in the world. Not in its problem solving. Not in its politics. Not in its pop everyday conversations either.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 10:23am PT
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"The bigotry propagated by Christianity has been slowly waning throughout the centuries, but that simply is not (yet) the case in the Muslim world." -Muhammad Syed (ex-muslim)
This is simply a fact. It is a plain-as-day fact at least to anyone who has made the serious study of the abrahamic faiths a part of their lives and history.
And yet with crazy irony to post this comment or its equivalent here at ST or elsewhere in social media leads to their being called a bigot - a term once upon a time only used amongst, for and against religious fanatics and their sectarian partisanship and prejudice.
So this is where we are.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 10:29am PT
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Radical Christianity
there I said it
will that stop the killings of doctors at abortion clinics?
or maybe if everyone in the US said it and stop being PC that would stop it
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 10:32am PT
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there I said it.... will that stop the killings of doctors at abortion clinics?
That and 'Christian extremism' (eg., Christianity vis a vis Christian extremism) should certainly clarify conversation though. (And maybe get you an Grade A on that paper instead of a Grade B-?) (Or one less argument from a Christian?)
A banal fact: better com, better understanding and better problem solving (ultimate goal here) all go together especially where it involves a community or public.
'Fundamentalist Christianity' vis a vis 'Christianity' - works pretty good too at parsing the difference. As needed.
....
Don't you think Paul Hill is better identified as a 'Christian extremist' than a 'Christian'? Less argumentative?
Don't you think his action/ his conduct is better described as 'Christian extremism' than just 'extremism'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Jennings_Hill
But if the term 'Christian extremist' is not in one's working vocabulary or if it's avoided then by default all that is left is 'Christian' or 'extremist.' Better parsed? Less argumentative?
If you don't have a problem calling out 'Christian extremist' in popular or political conversation then you shouldn't have a problem calling out 'Islamic extremist' when the time is appropriate (President Obama, Secretary Clinton).
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 20, 2016 - 10:39am PT
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In regards to the Orlando situation.
There's a false premise that "We can do something" to prevent every tragedy. Fear dictates that we must.
Unfortunately that's not always the case, and even if it was the case looking to politicians for answers is always the wrong path.
In a largely (still) free society, perhaps there are no takeaways from the actions of an individual bent on murder other than to be sure he acted alone.
An otherwise intelligent seemingly non-psychotic person planned his final exit for some time it seems making financial preparations well in advance. He was a security officer with significant work history, vetted and trained by one of the largest security firms in this country.
Assuming he acted alone, his purported religion, his targets, and his means are all now historical curiosities but have little bearing on future events. We can speculate on many dead people's motives but that'd hardly a fruitful exercise.
In countries where suicide bombers are commonplace, people continue to work and play in clear defiance of those who want them to live in fear.
Perhaps we should simply do the same.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 10:43am PT
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was there not an armed security guard at the night club?
who got killed because all he had was a single hand gun, inadequately armed
the answer is one fully armed guard for every party goer
that'll fix this problem
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 10:50am PT
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If you don't have a problem calling out 'Christian extremist' in popular or political conversation then you shouldn't have a problem calling out 'Islamic extremist' when the time is appropriate (President Obama, Secretary Clinton).
Fructose, have you changed you mind?
last week I thought it was you who agreed with the nuance of the President and acting Secretary of State to respect the Muslim country leaders reaction to the words Radical Islam vs say extremist elements of islam, etc
it is understandable that the other 99% of Americans don't get this as even Pres Bush did
but you seem to be, again, be going after the President about this rhetoric nuance?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jun 20, 2016 - 10:51am PT
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This is simply a fact. It is a plain-as-day fact at least to anyone who has made the serious study of the abrahamic faiths a part of their lives and history.
And yet with crazy irony to post this comment or its equivalent here at ST or elsewhere in social media leads to their being called a bigot - a terms once upon a time only used amongst, for and agaisnt religious fanatics.
Well, not so plain-as day.
As with Muslims, there is a broad spectrum of tolerance for other religions across countries and sects in Christianity.
Here are a couple quotes from your tolerant accepting Christians in this country, supposedly founded on tolerance of religions.
From Frank Graham, who is Billy's son and has taken over the enterprise he started :
Frank Graham claims Islam is "a Very Evil and Wicked Religion"
Hardly accepting.
And Jerry Falwell founder of the moral Majority weighed in with:
Falwell called Islam "satanic".[63] In a televised interview with 60 Minutes,
Keep in mind these guys have led prayer breakfasts in the White House.
And :
Keep in mind that Islam is the only religious tradition that has ever threatened the existence of Christianity,'' said Charles Kimball, chairman of the religion department at Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, N.C.
This one is particularly funny, considering the Crusades and inquisition.
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