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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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IBU's- International Bitterness Units. I have that same addiction ;)
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Me, too.
zB, I'm not questioning you on the NAC and ALA. Just that it's some thread drift that is complex and probably better suited in a discussion elsewhere.
Don't know exactly what the thyroid issue is - another very complex subject - but it is worth looking into the relative deficiency that is common in our society. Note that Iodine is a halogen as is fluorine, bromine, and chlorine.
The RDA for iodine is 150 micrograms and the average daily intake in Japan is 12.5 mg mostly due to their seaweed intake.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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WTF - now you are telling me my 6 Advil-a-Day diet is dissolving my joints?
Should I just say screw it and start smoking cigars. eating bacon and drinking Jim Beam like my Grandfather did? He seemed happy as hell. Sure, he dropped dead at the dinner table from a massive heart attack at age 78 but he at least finished the steak first.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Thanks Mark. I'll check into that.
The doctors I've seen just want to manage by the numbers and when it doesn't work they literally throw their hands up. I had one endocrinologist actually say "it beats the sheeit out of me" when I asked him what he thought was going on.
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slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
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May 11, 2016 - 07:25am PT
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Both forms of IBU were used, it worked for arthritis and turns out not so good for the heart,
NO , long term Ibuprofen is not good for you
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zBrown
Ice climber
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May 20, 2016 - 01:50pm PT
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Well all this stuff is "statin" to pique my interest.
The standard testing upon which the prescribing of statins is based is now referred to as the stone age of lipoproteins and coronary risk research, but a lipid panel (I just had one done) is still the same [old] one which measures TOTAL, LDL, HDL, Triglycerides. They don't even calculate and report ratios (e.g. Triglycerides/HDL) that they could.
Ratios
One study found that a TG/HDL-C ratio above 4 was the most powerful independent predictor of developing coronary artery disease
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16360350
Particle Size
High numbers of small, dense LDL particles are associated with increased risk for coronary heart disease in prospective epidemiologic studies. Subjects with small, dense particles (phenotype B) are at higher risk than those with larger, more buoyant LDL particles (phenotype A).
Interestingly, it has been found that the TG/HDL-C ratio can predict particle size. One study found that 79% of individuals with a ratio above 3.8 had a preponderance of small dense LDL particles, whereas 81% of those with a ratio below 3.8 had a preponderance of large buoyant particles
Start by googling LDL-P vs LDL-C. HDL-P vs HDL-C.
This appears to be from about June, 2012
Summary
1.HDL-C and HDL-P are not measuring the same thing, just as LDL-C and LDL-P are not.
2.Secondary to the total HDL-P, all things equal it seems smaller HDL particles are more protective than large ones.
3.As HDL-C levels rise, most often it is driven by a disproportionate rise in HDL size, not HDL-P.
4.In the trials which were designed to prove that a drug that raised HDL-C would provide a reduction in cardiovascular events, no benefit occurred: estrogen studies (HERS, WHI), fibrate studies (FIELD, ACCORD), niacin studies, and CETP inhibition studies (dalcetrapib and torcetrapib). But, this says nothing of what happens when you raise HDL-P.
5.Don’t believe the hype: HDL is important, and more HDL particles are better than few. But, raising HDL-C with a drug isn’t going to fix the problem. Making this even more complex is that HDL functionality is likely as important, or even more important, than HDL-P, but no such tests exist to “measure” this.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 20, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
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. . . but is a bad idea [ibu] as a regular thing for chronic pain that is best handled differently
And that would be how? Please, no tumeric, etc.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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May 20, 2016 - 05:23pm PT
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I've seen some pretty ugly results due to over utilization, but what about good old aspirin?
Tramadol (brand name: Ultram) is an opioid analgesic (painkiller). It is prescribed to treat moderate to moderately severe pain and is considered a safer alternative to other narcotic analgesics like hydrocodone (Vicodin, Lortab) and methadone.
Additional medications containing tramadol include Ultram ER, an extended release formulation for round-the-clock pain relief, and Ultracet, a combination of tramadol and acetaminophen (Tylenol).
Tramadol was originally considered to have a much better safety profile than other opioid analgesics like morphine or hydrocodone. The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) originally approved tramadol for use in 1995, and recommended it not be classified as a controlled substance. However, due to mounting evidence of abuse among the general public, as well as evidence of withdrawal symptoms upon cessation, the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) published revised rules in 2014 making tramadol a federally controlled drug (Schedule IV).
I had some left over from my mom's pillbox. Took it a few times when my torn cartilege knee was acting up.
I did not become addicted. I think I have one left.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 21, 2016 - 07:22am PT
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The effects of NSAID on the matrix of human articular cartilages.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10441838
The action of 13 NSAIDs was compared in terms of their effect on cartilage GAG synthesis. 3 of these NSAIDs were also studied in terms of their effect on cartilage collagen synthesis. Consideration of the results in this study and from published material, led to the suggestion that NSAIDs may be divided into 3 categories in respect of their in vitro action on the extracellular matrix of human arthritic cartilages: 1. Those such as Aceclofenac, Tenidap and Tolmetin which can stimulate matrix synthesis 2. Those such as Piroxicam, Tiaprofenic Acid and Aspirin which appear to be without significant effect on matrix synthesis and, 3. Those like Naproxen, Ibuprofen, Indomethacin, Nimezulide which significantly inhibit matrix synthesis.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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May 21, 2016 - 08:34am PT
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So much for the aspirin hypothesis. I still take a small one every day.
These experiments led to the suggestion that NSAIDs such as Aceclofenac would be appropriate for long-term treatment of arthritic conditions provided that one is prepared to extrapolate between in vitro experiments on human cartilage and what may be happening in vivo.
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I know this was not being shopped for, but I'll put this in the cart regarding turmeric/curcumin.
The product has very low bioavailability. A good, cheap potentiator is piperine (from black pepper).
Curcumin combined with piperine introduced in the humans, resulted in 2000% increased bio-availability.
I'm taking 1/2 tsp each of turmeric and ginger along with 1/4 tsp of pepper.
I'll let you know when I find some researched numbers on "proper" dosages and the study which served for the source quoted.
I did not become addicted in this case either and I drink it mixed into low sodium V8 (not the car kind) juice (not the Simpson kind).
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Warning: graphic material incoming.
http://www.lifescoreprogram.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/HDL-particle.jpg
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 21, 2016 - 09:53am PT
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Right on, skcreidc, that's what I'm talking about! I've heard similar stories from other people. Experiment, read, get different opinions. The worst thing one can do in regards to serious health questions is take the opinion of any single person as gospel, especially when it comes to physicians and diet issues. Most of them get virtually no training at all in this area.
BAd
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slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
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May 22, 2016 - 08:25am PT
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IMO Tramadol is virtually useless for any kind of mod-severe arthritic pain,,of course stronger stuff isn't really to good for you.
perhaps the Colorado state plant will be the way to go.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 22, 2016 - 09:47am PT
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The most reliable way to lower C Reactive Protein, a marker for systemic inflammation, is a whole food diet with lots of veggies. Adding fresh veggie juicing speeds up the shift. So does lowering simple carbs - sugar is your biggest enemy when it comes to promoting nflammation. As the CRP goes down, the overall pain goes down.
Research has shown a solid correlation between fibromyalgia and low CoQ10. It is common for people with generalized aches and pains to have a low aerobic base. Exercising aerobically (180 - age per Maffetone) for half an hour three times a week minimum will typically increase the aerobic base and decrease aches and pains. As your aerobic base improves you will be able to do more work at the same heart rate. This is the same kind of training that Steve House promotes.
For the joint cartilage part getting more sulfur in the diet helps. Also, getting more trace minerals - especially manganese and boron - helps. A lot of people are deficient in critical trace minerals due to eating too much refined foods. Bone stocks for soups and stews are a great way to get the dietary sulfur and trace minerals and most people will see a nice improvement in their joints overall. A good reference book for this is Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon.
Certainly joints can just get ground down through repeated stress and trauma beyond your body being able to repair itself, but if you haven't crossed that threshold those things above can be helpful.
The issue of joint pain and degeneration is a complex multi-causal issue and way beyond the reach of a singular treatment or prescription.
The suggestions above should be helpful, though.
PS zBrown, nice post.
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pitonpat
Mountain climber
SE Pennsylvania
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May 23, 2016 - 05:33pm PT
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I've been on atorvastatin for 3 years since having heart attacks. I'm 63, fit, very active and got the first attack on my road bike- i ride several thousand miles a year. I'm a building contractor, hands-on working every day. Lead 5.10, ice climb...the picture of fitness. 150 lbs., lean and had no idea my arteries were clogging with cholesterol until the sh#t hit the fan.
About 2 years in, my cardiologist decided to put me on Crestor (rosuvastatin). It was awful, I immediately had muscle pain that lasted for two weeks AFTER I quit taking it! Back on atorvastatin...one month ago Dr. decides to double my dose to 80 mg. I'm still doing fine with it.
Bottom line...I guess it matters more WHICH statin you're on.
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slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
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May 24, 2016 - 07:11am PT
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You got that right pat, my cardio said he would only use atorvastatin after heart failure.
Arteries weren't to blocked, but things eventually added up to failure.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2016 - 07:23pm PT
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. . . but is a bad idea [ibu] as a regular thing for chronic pain that is best handled differently
jgill: And that would be how? Please, no tumeric, etc.
The 'turmeric' is the money, but you have to do the 60-90 loading for it to really kick in and be effective. Went from 8-12 advil a day for serious joint pain to nothing at all after the loading period cut over. Been that way for eight years now (now 64).
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Dec 15, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
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^^^ At your age I wasn't taking anything. Now, because of arthritis, I'm happy Vitamin I is non-prescription (it used to be by Rx only).
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 26, 2019 - 06:25pm PT
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satan for Gray Beards bump
I stand corrected
The question was indeed asked after an edit.
Has anyone had experiences with muscle weakness while on Statins?
I have none
But this is indeed a good thread to read through
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 27, 2019 - 04:55am PT
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Exactly what statins are you people taking?
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ManMountain
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 27, 2019 - 12:06pm PT
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Lipitor, after a decade+ of Mevacor stopped working. Was at the 220 cholesterol level before I started taking statins, now I'm at 110. Age 67, no muscle pain beyond the usual agony after 20+ mile day hikes, 2,500'+ climbs above 10,000', epics, etc. They check for Rhabdomyolysis annually. Don't exercise except by doing outdoor activities. Eat what I want, when I want, except two years ago I'd ballooned to 215#s, so I cut out the Pop-Tarts, doughnuts & breakfast bars; now I'm a svelte 175#s, near high school weight. I only eat 5-10 ounces of meat/week as a treat, chicken/fish mostly, pasta/rice/veggies/dairy is the norm. Don't know why; I just don't lust after meat anymore.
Sorry, I feel healthy although I've definitely declined in strength/endurance compared to my high school days. The Doc says take statins, I accept his expertise and do so along with everything else he tells me to do, except cut back on the booze and quit smoking. Ya' gotta have something to throw off the stagecoach when the highwaymen are after you.
I observe folks who are endlessly fretting that they're not in ultramarathon shape and pursue oddball therapies for medically unexplained syndromes, most of which include as a possible diagnosis is that the symptoms most likely arise from psychological causes. The point is your life attitude might be making you sick. The other odd thing about the "I'm miserable and the Docs can't help me" crowd is they're also rabid screamers on both ends of the spectrum concerning politics, religion, the environment etc., and are in a heightened state of paranoia, fear of the future, hermits, destitute due to bad life choices, etc., 24/7. I'd suggest they calm down; the world will continue to rotate, get outdoors and away from your computer as much as possible with lots of friends, and enjoy your four score and seven years on our orb. Also, have a health plan after you're 35 or so that includes annual physical exams by a primary care provider to catch the obvious bad stuff that can kill you quickly or slowly. Money well spent.
That is all.
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