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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 22, 2003 - 07:34pm PT
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"However, it seems like it would be a fairly safe assumption to assume that one who was introduced to climbing via a childhood or lifetime spent in the outdoors would be more likely to be sensitive to environmental concerns than one who took up bouldering after they purchased Outside Magazine at a newsstand in Manhattan."
It doesn't follow. I know of one climber, a very famous one, who has climbed for 30 years and changes his oil in the desert. I've seen many climbers who have served a long apprenticeship let their dogs sh#t everywhere and rip up vegetation, drop litter, and bring ghetto blasters to the cliff. I've seen willful grid-bolting, over-chalking, and rampant destruction of vegetation all by long established climbers.
It is so very easy to say "it's their fault, those irresponsible sport climbers from the city gym".....it makes us feel good about ourselves, but solves nothing.
I agree new climbers need educating, and I agree it is ignorance but so do some of the old timers who can be the worst because they see an increase in the numbers climbing, they see "recommended guidelines" like stay on the trail and they say "F*#K IT....it never used to be like this 10 years ago......we could do what we wanted then".
Pointing the finger at the "young boulderers" or so-called "gym-bred climbers" only alienates those groups, the majority of whom behave impecably. Most I talk to are acutely aware of the pressures that some areas are under and know how to behave. Environmental education has increased drastically in schools and this has had an effect on the attitudes and values of the younger generation who are so often at the end of pointed fingers just because of their youth.
Climber impact is our collective problem, if we start splintering and pointing fingers, we loose. Land managers see us as climbers, not all these sub-cultures within climbing.
The same with dogs, dogs are a problem at some areas, it doesn't matter if the owner is a good owner or not. We are seen collectively as a user group and just the fact that their is a pack of dogs (both well-behaved and not) associated with us tarnishes us in the eyes of land managers and environmentalists.
For the good of "all" climbers a lot more needs to be done as regards educating the ignorant whether they are young or old, an alpinist, a boulderer, an ice climber, a trad......big waller...JEEZ..........CLIMBERS.... how many sub-divisions are there these days?
Mick
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10b4me
Trad climber
Bishop(hopefully)
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Dec 23, 2003 - 01:34pm PT
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can't wait to meet never surfaced.
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DJ Reyes
Trad climber
Northern NV
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Dec 24, 2003 - 02:30pm PT
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Last year while I was forty feet off the ground following a route at Lover's Leap, a couple of other climbers came up to the base of the route with an unleashed dog who, in full sight of the owners, and while I watched and yelled, dug into my pack and tore into my lunch. I lost most of my lunch, and all would have been forgiven if the owners would have only apologized.
That was the incident that swept me firmly into the "no dogs at the crags" camp.
DJR
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kev
climber
CA
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Dec 24, 2003 - 04:51pm PT
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Haven't been bit by a dog at a crag yet, and although I do love dogs, the first one that bites me will get beaned in the head with a big hex followed by a #4.
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dirtbag
Trad climber
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Dec 24, 2003 - 05:17pm PT
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Just be sure to bean the owner, too.
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C-DUB
Trad climber
Laguna Beach Ca
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Dec 24, 2003 - 06:15pm PT
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I would have BBQed the dog for lunch if he ate mine. A little Tapatio and some tortillas and were good to go. HEY! Skinnnner get that fire going would ya!
To all the well trained dogs and responsible owners I Thank you, and look forward to crossing paths with you.
HAVE A GOOD ONE, C-DUB
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Thom
Trad climber
South Orange County, CA
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Dec 25, 2003 - 04:22pm PT
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If you're gonna bring your dog, make sure you've put some time into training their behavior and put them on a leash. I've yet to encounter a bad dog at the crags but one of my worst climbing experiences ever involved an unleashed dog.
The pooch was nice enough but was going ballistic over being left alone while its' owners climbed. The dog was goin' nuts so my partner and I tried to calm it down. Out of concern for the animal, we attempted to leash it ourselves; the owner yelled down at us to, "Take that fn' rope off my dog." We told him what was going on and he said his dog would be fine just and to leave him alone. Moments later we watched in horror as the dog pitched off a slab trying to get to the guy, and fell probably 100+ feet. My partner and I were basically the only ones who could get to the dog, who was yelping hysterically. By the time we got to the dog, the yelps were a whimper; he died minutes after we got to it.
The owners showed up a few minutes later. I said, "You should've had him on a leash." He said, "F-you as#@&%e." My partner layed him out on the spot, one shot, and sent him tumbling down the talus. The guys' partner just stood there. We went home after wrapping the dog in a ropebag/tarp.
If you're gonna bring your dog to the crags think about the safety of others and of the dog: train them, leash them, and don't indulge your selfishness by leaving them alone while you climb.
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dougs510
Trad climber
Nashville, TN.
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Dec 30, 2003 - 12:28am PT
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My buddy Kirk was climbing at T-wall and as I was belaying my partner, I caught the scent of what smelled like open sewer. Come to find out, Kirk's dog had found someones sh#t and rolled all in it. That was too funny. Kirk had to let the dog ride in the back of his car all the way home smelling like that. Oh well, that's what dogs do, the eat sh#t and roll in dead things. Kirk, if you read this, thanks for the laugh. But hey, I love em all, just don't lick me in the face, and if you bite me, your gonna die sucker.
But seriously, let me tell you how I really feel. I think if someone brings an unruly dog to the crag, and he attacks me, I'm going to have some real serious issues with the owner. The first thing that comes to mind is a big stick or rock for the both of them, that is of course unless the owner is a pretty lady, then, I guess I'd just have to tell her she has a stupid dog, her feet stink, and that her heart pumps sh#t.
Don't these people know that the dog should be on a leash if it's likely to bite someone?
STUPID!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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Dec 30, 2003 - 01:38pm PT
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Wolf wrote:
The owners showed up a few minutes later. I said, "You should've had him on a leash." He said, "F-you as#@&%e." My partner layed him out on the spot, one shot, and sent him tumbling down the talus. The guys' partner just stood there.
What a sad story.
Except for the ending, which brightened my day.
Hardman Knott
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Loom
climber
The Sierra or Merdead
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Dec 30, 2003 - 03:37pm PT
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re the first post:
You should've Jackie Chan'd his ass and told him his open mouth just ran into your leg.
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nature
climber
some other life
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My dog almost bit a one year old. The father (a good friend) was right next to the child. He appologized for the fact that his kid was beating up on my dog. A one year old sticking it's fingers in a the dogs ears, eyes and butthole is going to get bit. Who's fault? Both of ours. I felt bad and also appologized. We returned to our regularly scheduled 4:20 activity and forgot about (well, I have not).
Turns out the kid has two dogs at home. The kid wrestles with the dogs and they take it. Certainly the child had no idea this was a different dog with a different (don't fsck with me) attitude.
I don't agree that if a dog bites someone, even a child, it should be put down. Circumstances should be considered. Certaily dogs that bite just for the hell of it might need to be put down if they "do the wrong thing". A dog that is defending itself and bites is a different story. Don't be stupid. IF a leased dog growls and you ignore it and get bit it's your own dumb fault.
She almost bit someone (for the first time) in JTree a few weeks ago. Growled at the guy (though he had been accepted into the pack). He kept trying to pet her. She finally sorta snapped - large bark and hit the guys hand with her nose. He looked up at me and said "whoops, my fault". I nodded.
She's never bit anyone but damn if she doesn't bark a lot. "Shut up, bitch" goes a long way with making her pipe down. She's been a climbing dog all her life - another that's sent 5.10 slab. She's a damn good dog and I consider myself a good pet owner. She's also part ausie sheppard - she will guard my stuff and her "pack" (by barking).
Oh but whatever. Many excellent points have been made above. I don't agree that dogs should not be allowed at climbing areas. Certaily some areas are more frequented than others. I won't bring my dog to high traffic areas simply because she won't stop barking and it drives me nuts :). At the same time, there are many areas in Arizona where we find ourselves alone. My dog will be there.
Cheers and happy fscking new year!
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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A friend & I took her dog to JTree over the holidays and we had nothing but smooth sailing It was the 1st ever road trip for the 8 month old pup too, and he was just awesome, might have tried to love a few people to death if we hadn't prevented it.
One rotten apple...
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