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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 12, 2006 - 06:53am PT
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johndoeX,
Just jumped up to eat crow on the instrument point - I talked with my Father and it was the first five take off and landings with a localizer for the horizontal and a radar for the vertical for pilot controlled approaches (as opposed to its later use for ground controlled radar approaches [GCA] ). These were at night on primitively lit runways in 0-0 conditions.
The point remains that his background in aviation and avionics is such that if you can't convince him you don't have a very compelling story as far as I'm concerned. And he is very anti-Bush and quite open-minded with regards to all such issues.
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Werner, I'm sure no one has climbed El Cap in a day either, one look and you know just how impossible that would be... haha!
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 12, 2006 - 12:45pm PT
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"...I had seen this forum referred to our site and wanted to respond to the above post regarding "nuts" to set the record straight. Ridicule is a form most often used by the ignorant. Sometimes use as a defense mechanism. It's abundant when trying to question your govt.. This... in America..."
Similarly, creating a wild conspiracy theory to explain those things one doesn't understand can hardly be considered an indication of genius.
Curt
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 12, 2006 - 01:24pm PT
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I've been following along but not posting much because I decided it was pointless. No one could be so obtuse, obsessive and deluded as these guys without serious implications of dire mental health problems. Then, a thought struck and a flash of insight ensued: it's a troll, the most sophisticated troll in my memory; and we were suckered. Klimmer et al, I've got to hand it to you, brilliant! You had me believing some rogue gene was loose. Congratulations! I feel like I've been suckered into a debate over whether the moon really is made of green cheese or the Earth is flat, but you've been caught.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2006 - 01:51pm PT
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WoodySt,
No troll. Just the truth. I've made my stand. I have seen a lot of the evidence, and there is no turning back. I'm in good company with those in a position to know.
9-11 Truth Seekers (CTers) are in very good company:
Senior Military, Intelligence, and Government Officials Question 9/11 Commission Report
http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport
Try calling them nuts or crazy.
9/11 Statement Signed by 100 Prominent Americans
http://www.wanttoknow.info/911statement
One day you will also know. The truth will always out.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 12, 2006 - 02:33pm PT
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As a paleontologist, I know how hard it can be to get all the facts. Rarely does the whole truth get out, on anything. You never know if there is something you don't know.
I suspect, though, that if we could know the whole deal on 9/11, we would all, on every side of the political spectrum, be blown away.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 12, 2006 - 02:47pm PT
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wodcraft deserves to be visited in the middle of the night by guys in dark suits and white shirts and deadly weapons to determine if he is a threat.
i cant believe people are so stupid as to post things like this.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2006 - 03:15pm PT
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Hawkeye-
What threat do you think I represent?
Let's imagine this scenario on 9-11:
Stock traders on say floor 20. 50 or so floors below the plane impact, on opposite side of building.
Trader #1: "Was that an earthquake, did you feel something?"
Trader #2: "What? I'm hungry"
Trader #3: " Check out the news- a plane hit our building!"
Trader #2: "I think you're hot"
Trader #3: "Creep."
Trader #1: "I hear something behind the wall"
Trader #3: "That sounds like fireproofing falling off. I heard a sound like that last summer before my bar-b-que melted.
Trader #2: " Let's blow this off and go get some pancakes."
A few other thoughts:
A while back someone pointed out that my experience is in smaller, residential buildings. This is true. Larger buildings must be much, much stronger. Wind loads alone for a tall building are huge. I have installed steel beams, and moment frames, and worked for a year on the gut rehab of a 6 story office building that included comprehensive steel frame retrofit. As I recall, the applicator was unable to certify that the fireproofing applied to the steel was asbestos free. I worked intimately around the fireproofing material for months.(electrical work, primarily)
Regarding the gash on the face of building 7, the report goes on to diagram how the collapse did not start in that area.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 12, 2006 - 04:11pm PT
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Klimmer:
"9-11 Truth Seekers (CTers) are in very good company:
Senior Military, Intelligence, and Government Officials Question 9/11 Commission Report
http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport
Try calling them nuts or crazy."
Did you spend any time reading this yourself? It is a real hodge-podge of different statements by different people, including nutty statements and valid criticisms. Most cannot be cited for supporting your nutty CT theories.
9/11 Statement Signed by 100 Prominent Americans
http://www.wanttoknow.info/911statement[/i]
At least these people are all listed as signing onto the same letter. But the list of names is not nearly as illustrious as the one above. And if you look beyond the signatures and read (and think about) the questions they are signing, it isn't very persuasive. Many of the questions appear to be rhetorical, and they bear repeating, because they highlight incompetence by the administration and government. But evidence of your CT theories? No.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2006 - 06:19pm PT
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Chuckcar,
The info about the gash and presumed line of initial collapse is in NIST interim report on WTC7 section L-30. Link in references section of Wikipedia- WTC7
http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf
Regarding steel melting, I agree that steel, uniformly heated, above 1100 degrees, loses much of it's strength, and that could lead to failure. But why has that not happened in any other high-rise fire, even a 14 hour raging inferno? My primitive analogies still apply- your bar-b-que didn't collapse from the steel softening either.
On the other hand, we are talking about melted steel- a pool in the basement still molten days later. What caused that? Friction?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 12, 2006 - 06:28pm PT
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Kryptonite.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 12, 2006 - 06:47pm PT
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For what it's worth, my opinion is that we do need completely independent re-investigations into 9/11, Iraq, allegations of torture and other abuses from high up, etc. We need these to satisfy to whatever extent possibe, the questions that remain after years of adminisration repression, suppression and interference with official investigations. We need an open process that can be trusted.
Many of us don't believe in the thoroughness, impartiality or accuracy of the efforts so far, and for good reason. This government has been the most secretive and deceptive of any in my lifetime. Why would the right-wing oppose spending a few hundred million on reliable investigations, that might go a long way to dousing the kind of conspiracy theories it says are so impossible? Could be money well spent for the health of the country.
All this name-calling on both sides is tiresome. We're all Americans, let's act like them and respect each other's viewpoints. I for one, am certain that I don't know a fraction of the reality or truth of what's gone down.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2006 - 06:55pm PT
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I'm saying that the theory that the towers were brought down by thermite charges, which melts steel, and which could only have been an inside job, fits the facts much better than the theory that some middle eastern guys with razor blades called off the air defense, made three building collapse at free fall speed, and attacked the best defended building on Earth, coordinated from a cave in Afganistan, by a guy with failing kidneys.
Not just the basement. It's not easy for a building to collapse.
If it was that easy, you would hear about it happening more often.
Who had access? Who could hire the experts to set it up? If buildings are that weak, how can the insurance companys insure them?
Did you believe them about the WMD in Iraq?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2006 - 07:13pm PT
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Give it up Chuckcar, your post is just as useless nonsense as you claim woodcrafts is. It's a blog to your link and disinformation can be readily provided there as any other resources available.
As Jello says an independent bona fide non biased investigation by third parties into this whole affair is in order.
Back and forth this bickering about who's so called right and wrong here is going absolutely nowhere .......
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Nov 12, 2006 - 07:30pm PT
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 12, 2006 - 07:42pm PT
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Yeah, cintune, I got splashed by a Gallagher explosion in Vegas, once. Had molten watermellon all over me. That is one funny dude!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2006 - 09:44pm PT
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Jello,
I concur with what you said upstream. Re-investigate 9-11 with an independent commission. This independent commission in my opinion should be international since the event had serious international repercussions. Perhaps it could be done through the UN.
I have no doubt that a true independent investigation into 9-11, and not a white-wash full of excuses that get published on the back of our tax dollars in the form of a large book that is only useful as a door-stop, will lead right to the truth of what the 9-11 truth movement is finding in abundance.
Someone mentioned upstream why isn’t the MSM into talking about this issue? They are, only because the ground-swell is overwhelming and they have been forced into it, and can’t ignore it anymore. More and more people are waking up. We have seen it talked about this past year in the media like never before. However, MSM is usually ridiculing the questioning of the 9-11 OCT.
One of the first things we democrats should do is reinstate the fairness doctrine so we have more to watch than shills and paid mouth pieces for the GOP. MSM is mostly now consolidated and owned by 5 - 6 large very Republican corporations. Think they want to talk about 9-11 truth? Why would they, since they have so much to lose when it becomes completely exposed, hence all the ridicule from them regarding it.
The only true American newscaster who is brave enough to take on this corrupt administration is Keith Olberman. Keith is a true Patriot. I salute him. Without Keith Olberman, AAR, and the “Internets,” where would we be?
There truly are 3 political parties in the US right now: the Democrats, the Republicans, and the Neo-cons. Unfortunately, the Neo-cons hi-jacked the Republican party, and unfortunately the Republican party has allowed it and enabled them to do so.
Democrats and Republicans, we are all Americans. But the Neo-cons are fascists and completely corrupt and they have had their boots to our throats for at least 6 years. Now the table is turned, and we are going to put all of our boots to their throats and finish them off. We can’t suffer this sh*t ever again.
People are waking up big time. It’s the reason the election overwhelmingly went in the favor of truth . . . Here are some articles to this effect:
Third of Americans suspect 9-11 government conspiracy
By THOMAS HARGROVE
Scripps Howard News Service
http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll
First US Newspaper Calls For Complete Independent Council of 9-11
9/11 Blogger
Sunday, November 12, 2006
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2006/121106Council.htm
Here is the orig. article from Ashland Daily Tidings Newspaper:
http://www.dailytidings.com/2006/1111/stories/1111_editorial.php
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 12, 2006 - 09:57pm PT
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Woodcraft: "I'm saying that the theory that the towers were brought down by thermite charges, which melts steel, and which could only have been an inside job, fits the facts much better than the theory that some middle eastern guys with razor blades called off the air defense, made three building collapse at free fall speed, and attacked the best defended building on Earth, coordinated from a cave in Afganistan, by a guy with failing kidneys."
Well thanks for stating a hypothesis as to what you think happened.
Let's consider it.
First, thermite is NOT a high explosive. It is a powder that just burns. It can melt through steel, but its effect is very confined in space, so it is more like a welding torch and needs to pretty much be in direct contact to do so. Also, because it just burns, it is VERY slow compared to an explosive. It takes the thermite time to melt through steel.
If you do not believe the NIST explanation about how the buildings collapsed because you don't think it accounts for the near free fall speed, that is your prerogative, but an explanation depending on thermite throughout the buildings to achieve the "top down" collapse seen in the videos does not work because that would have made the collapses take more time, not less.
It is interesting that you characterize the so-called "OTC" as: "... some middle eastern guys with razor blades called off the air defense, made three building collapse at free fall speed, and attacked the best defended building on Earth, coordinated from a cave in Afghanistan, by a guy with failing kidneys."
You refer to "some middle eastern guys with razor blades" as if that makes them trained monkeys with primitive tools. There is a strong undercurrent of racism and anti-semitism in the 9/11 conspiracy theory community and your argument is no exception.
Osama Bin Laden has a degree in civil engineering and wasn't living in a cave at the time (that came later). Muhammad Atta had a degree in architecture. All the pilots were trained at U.S flight schools.
"..attacked the best defended building on Earth,.."
Look at a map. The Pentagon is right next to an international airport. That makes it very difficult to defend against suicide air attacks. If/when the government gets serious about defending Washington from air attacks, they will need to shut the airport down.
The WTC had no defenses whatsoever.
"coordinated ... by a guy with failing kidneys"
We had a President a while back with a failing brain. We currently have a VP with a failing heart. (Some would say no heart.)
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 12, 2006 - 10:30pm PT
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Go ahead and bash the "mainstream media", but I believe that if every American had read the 9/11 Commission Report and had also been following the media coverage of 9/11 and the events leading up to it prior to the 2004 election, Bush would have not currently be President.
The Bush administration completely dropped the ball on terrorism in general and Osama Bin Laden in particular.
Remember what they focusing on? Skirmishing with China, developing an anti-ballistic missile system and downsizing (that's right, downsizing) the military.
"Third of Americans suspect 9-11 government conspiracy
By THOMAS HARGROVE
Scripps Howard News Service
http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll "
Worth reading, but not surprising. What do you expect in a country where a more then 50% of the population is so ignorant of science as to reject evolution outright? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/22/opinion/polls/main965223.shtml
Oops, this is the wrong thread to get started on that. Still it might explain why so many of the conspiracy theories are so kooky.
The last time we had this level of paranoia and conspiracy theories regarding the government (remember the days of the militias and the fear of "black helicopters"), it led to the Oklahoma City bombing. At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if the next significant terrorist attack in the U.S. is perpetrated by a homegrown red-blooded wanna-be "patriot."
Consider the title of this thread for a second. It is rather chilling. I want Bush and Cheney OUT of the White House as much as the next guy, but let's not get ridiculous.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2006 - 10:46pm PT
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I think you are a conspiracy ......
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 13, 2006 - 12:28am PT
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...Give it up Chuckcar, your post is just as useless nonsense as you claim woodcrafts is. It's a blog to your link and disinformation can be readily provided there as any other resources available.
As Jello says an independent bona fide non biased investigation by third parties into this whole affair is in order...
Fortunately, we already have that. For those who are interested in the engineering sciences and facts, the NIST report will suffice. For those who prefer "National Enquirer" type reporting, of course, facts are of little consequence.
Curt
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