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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 9, 2006 - 12:40pm PT
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If it is established that the World Trade Center collapse was organized by the Bush administration, Do you think that George Bush and Dick Cheney should be executed?
I've been contemplating this question after hearing details of very credible research into how the buildings were brought down. It explains the molten metal seen pouring from the side of the building, and the pool of molten steel in the basements. Have you thought about why your fireplace grate and bar-b-que grill have not melted, and even white hot steel in a forge does not melt, yet a 100+ story building supposedly collapsed in 10 seconds from fire?
Google - Dr. Steven Jones, thermate- to check it out.
Jay
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Woodcraft,
See a shrink fast.
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Themadmilkman
Sport climber
Memphis, TN
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If you're going to go by what that guy says, be sure to also read all of the retorts done by professionals in the field of materials science. They do a pretty good job of debunking him.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oh geez...not another 9/11 conspiracy thread.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2006 - 12:51pm PT
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So do you think the buildings fell down at free-fall speed from being hit by a plane, & fire? (except building #7 - it fell down because it was sad?) I personally have demolished houses, and been impressed by how much you have to take away before the building actually comes down- and that is lightweight frame construction- no steel.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Woodcraft,
Have someone release you from your straitjacket, go to a bookstore and purchase the book by "Popular Mechanics" that deals with all your concerns.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Having been in construction for 20+ years, I concur with the whole thing smelling Fishy! There should have been more fatalities also, the whole thing just isn't right. But the American people swallow sh#t and think it tastes good if the television says it's so. Shamefully living in a "red" state.
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dirtbag
climber
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I think Woody's idea is a good one.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2006 - 01:17pm PT
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Woody-
I have read the Popular Mechanics denial. If the floors "pancaked", why wasn't there still the core columns sticking up? I don't recall their explaining building #7 either. Have you seen the videos? - 50 story building, gone in 8 seconds- no airplane, no steel-melting fire. Why do you think that happened?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Chaz,
Once would have been enough, even though I agree with the sentiment.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2006 - 02:04pm PT
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Chaz-
Thank you for your articulate and reasoned response
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snooky
climber
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Yeah to execute is a little harsh. Maybe they could just take in the bum from their gay preacher buddy Haggard and get a few blisters that wont go away.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Woodcraft sez:
"Thank you for your articulate and reasoned response"
I do what I can.
It's just that kind of thread.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Woodcraft, MoveOn.getoverit
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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I do what I can.
It's just that kind of thread.
no, you are just that kind of guy...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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definitely a little early for this putting noose before th ass and all...
but if it did go down that way (assuming the towers did go down that way,) it would be amusing to have Bush, Cheney and Saddam all be cellmates for life.
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BrentA
Gym climber
Las Vizzle, on the rizzle
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the truth is not out there...
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andanother
climber
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In answer to you hypothetical question:
Yes. Anyone involved should be executed on a number of charges. The democrats are traditionally against the death penalty, but I doubt they (or anyone else) would have a problem justifying in this hypothetical situation.
The problem is that there is no way those two, or any other US govt official could have been involved.
I would definitely get some sort of twisted satisfaction to find out that it was done by our government. But the fact is, there is absolutely no way they could pull it off. I don't care how much evidence there is to the contrary. It can't be done. Yes, GW and his cronies indirectly FUNDED the attacks, but that doesn't mean they were "involved".
If, somewhere down the road, it is discovered that I am mistaken, I will happily retract that statement. But I'm not too worried about it.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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300k gal of kerosene will burn most anything.rg
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murcy
climber
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Do you think maybe the Bush/Cheney machine also had a hand in this whole Britney break-up fiasco?
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sketchyy
Trad climber
Vagrant
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Funny how the same people who think that bush is a tard also think he masterminded the greatest cover-up in the history of the world. You cant have it both ways folks.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2006 - 03:22pm PT
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andanother-
Who called off the air defense? (Scrambled over 200 times the previous year- automatic procedure) Had to be at or near the top of command, right?
I don't think Bush has masterminded anything. Look behind the curtain...
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Hey Bush is no tard...he's a f*#king puppet
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snooky
climber
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Mastermind---Bush.......... That is like oil and water!!!!!!!!
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Kartch
climber
belgrade, mt
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First: Having worked in the government I think there is no way they could have pulled a conspiracy like that off. They are in no way streamlined enough or qualified enough to do it. There would have had to be hundreds of peeps involved; and I doubt they would stay quiet.
Second: Follow the money man! Why would a republican led presidency organize and then kill thousands of other republicans of high net worth. Not only did the people killed have a high income but they also make a lot of other people rich around the world. The money trail just doesn't go back to the president.
Remember sh#t rolls downhill. GIGO garbage in garbage out. Of course you can keep on thinking conspiracy. It's easiery to believe a grand sceme has been in place and larger hand is guiding our actions than to take personal responsibility of our beliefs I suppose. Cheers.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2006 - 03:58pm PT
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Money trail- Cheney--- Haliburton--- billions public $ contracts.
Not saying that's the whole story, but you don't have to look hard to see a money trail.
On the other hand- "Those terrorists hate our freedom" What money trail do you see there?
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Kartch
climber
belgrade, mt
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The billions of one man (Cheney) doesn't make it logical to destroy the former world leader in trade (New York and the collective knowledge of the traders/managers/financial pros inside).
Governments follow money, terrorist don't.
I don't know if you're trying to convince me or yourself.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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well.....the OP does only ask "if it was proved the Bush admin did the WTC"...
If the event WAS staged (and I'm not saying one way or another; I never spent much time evaluating the information about the thing), then - OF COURSE those who planned it should be executed.
In public, on stage, but only after a lenghty interment, where every person in the world who cared to had the opportunity to go up to them and tell them what they think.
If I knew, for sure, that Bush/heney planned and executed that event, I would personally want to spit in their faces and kick them in the nuts.
If they had an auction to see who got to pull the lever that released the plateform to hang them, I'd bid to my highest ability to do the honor.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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I have inside info the Ted Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi did it. I agree that executing both would be a good idea. They knew that the attack would lead the Bush administration into invading Iraq which, in the long run, would involve the US in a long and frustrating war that would result in the Dems winning back political power. This would, they assume, invigorate their leftwing forces in San Francisco, New York, Austin, Portland and Seattle etc. to rise up and establish Marxist dictatorships in said states. The takeover of those states would begin a rolling revolution that would envelop the entire country leading, ultimately, to a workers paradise for all. Of course, a few eggs would have to be broken to make the omelet. I have this on good authority from a physics prof at the U of Utah who has admitted that his first theory had some flaws.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I absolutely know that we don't have all the answers about 9-11 and I have no idea what the real story is and what's been covered up. I'd like to know and hope credible info comes out.
About about this. What should happen to Bush and Cheney if investigations prove they were well aware that Iraq was no threat nor linked to 9-11. Let's say they invaded cause they though it would be easy and we'll control all that oil?
Hundreds of thousands died including thousandss of Americans.
Forget 9-11 conspiracy, That's plenty of crime for me.
Peace
Karl
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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sh#t, please.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2006 - 06:47pm PT
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The silence is profound about why building #7 collapsed. 50 story building. There has got to be a cause. Didn't even hit adjacent skyscrapers. Random collateral damage from the twin towers? Don't build 'em like they used to? Sparks ignited diesel fuel in the basement leading to 8 second collapse? Aliens?
Anybody?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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You don't suppose it had anything to do with the two tallest buildings on the planet collapsing and burning right across the street from it, do you?
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2006 - 06:58pm PT
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What was it, 6 hours later? What're you thinking exactly, Chaz?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Of course this was explained by Pop Mech. which, I beieve, you said you read. Maybe, you should read it again. If I'm mistaken and you haven't read it, READ IT!
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murcy
climber
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Dude, you don't have to be an expert on kiwi fruit to know that the guy who thinks that they are space aliens is a tad off base. There are no end to "well then how do you explain X???" questions. If you really want to believe that Hurricane Andrew was seeded by the CIA, nothing can stop you. Just be sure to lay in a good supply of tin foil, and don't trust the "birds" outside your window.
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Michael
Trad climber
Boulder
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Who the hell references popular mechanics??? If it's still a possibility, go back to school...I'd probably be expelled for using Popular Mechanics as a reference for any of my publications...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Good points Lois, it could be that simple, G2's f-ups (not the weird building failures) But it isn't. Google Joseph campbell father quests. Not that that simp could help it.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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It was a book Twit. They had numerous technologists in construction, explosives, metalurgy from private institutions and universities etc. do an analysis of the entire thing. They also interviewed witnesses that saw various incidents--Pentagon, crash of the flight in Penn. Of course if you want to believe in little green men and vampires, go ahead. It will always be a good topic for your group sessions just before you give each other a hug and line up for meds.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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I just forwarded the above posts to the White House, I wonder if the Secret Service will think it is funny?
JDF
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snooky
climber
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What isn't funny Jaun is the fact Bush had warning about 911 and didn't do anything about it. The memo Ms.Rice shrugged off as historical when quizzed by congress could have been taken seriously but instead ignored. Maybe the drooling dolts at the White House would get a laugh out of that as well, ha ha ha. 911 could have been avoided without across the board incompetence of the Bush ignorant style of non-leadership.
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snooky
climber
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Yeah try to kill the messenger with the education card. Nice try jaun but your grasping at straws. The threats you wish to interpret exemplify your ignorance beyond the pathetic drool of most Bushlickers. Now I wouldn't call for his killing because, if by firearm, it would be a waste of a cheap bullet.
And jaun, it is so nice to be posting on a board with a rat like you, happy happy joy joy!!!!!!!!!
jaun you coward, took your lame post down??
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:08am PT
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Lois wrote
"In Bush's case, I think the truth is far simpler and adequately explains the facts. He was incompetent as pertaining to the Iraq war and the consequences were devestating."
Lois, Bush had little to do with it except as the puppet for his neo-con buddies. Remember (if you read the evidence posted on supertopo in threads you were supposedly reading) that the PNAC had recommended an Iraq invasion long before 9-11, even before Bush was president. Still, the buck stops with Bush and his henchmen, cause they pulled the trigger.
I get the feeling your'e basing your opinion on more gut feeling than actually considering the mounting evidence like the Downing Street Memos, high level defectors who testified to the lack of WMDS, and fact that Cheney is alleged to divide up the oil assents of Iraq with his energy task force oil company cronies well before the invasion.
On what do you base your idea that we don't need to look below the surface?
Thousands are dead. Thousands more might have been saved in the future if we could have spent the 100s of billions wasted on the war differently. Where's the accountability?
If I got a machine gun and went on a high school campus and killed 200 kids, would it be enough for me to say "Those kids (or their friends) harrassed me on the street, I think they were armed and a threat to my neighborhood?" Wouldn't it be even worse if it could be proved that the kids hadn't harrassed me and that I knew they weren't armed?
Of course not. Bush's crime is even worse than that monstrous scenario. We need to find out for certain, by uncovering the excessive secrecy of the administration, who knew what and when. War is not a joke. A mistaken war is not a boo boo.
Peace
Karl
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:43am PT
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"...As you know, with any conspiracy, you can hide facts but so long..."
Did I miss the part where you tell us who killed JFK and why?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 01:19am PT
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"What isn't funny Jaun is the fact Bush had warning about 911 and didn't do anything about it."
What exactly do you think Bush should have done, huh Snooky?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 10, 2006 - 01:38am PT
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Most people according to polls don't buy the JFK explanation from the government. When the file was closed for fifty years, it confirmed that they were hiding something. Personally, I've always had a suspicion that Castro was behind it. The Kennedys had tried numerous times through the CIA and the Mob to whack him. Exposing that would have required going to war at a time we were in Vietnam. It also would have exposed many embarrassing things about the kennedys including probable Mob ties. JFK and a leading mob boss were sharing a certain lady. Then, as we all know, Jack Ruby, an affiliate of the Mob, assassinated the assassin. It all stinks. I voted for JFK, and I consider it one of my big mistakes. Historians, when enough time has passed, will drop the hammer on that drug soaked piece of slime.
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snooky
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 01:53am PT
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Huh Chaz, He could've halted his vacation clearing brush at his fake ranch and gone back to DC and done many things he failed to do that are the obvious. First of all alert the FAA to heighten security at the airports, pretty simple thing to do and as a matter of fact was done multiple times in the previous decade. He didn't do this obvious option to clearing brush and hanging out at in Texas. And if you wish to hear more there are plenty of things he could have done that he failed to do but I can sense you don't care what anyone says you will just call bullshit so I would advise you to inform yourself with the vast amount of information regarding this blunder. But no doubt you have some sassyass retort. If you haven't learned about this stupidity from Bush at this point you are pretty misinformed.
When reading the ignorant rant fro, Chaz below remember she didn't pay attention to the obvious inform THE FAA.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:09am PT
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Never mind Popular Mechanics. If you are truly interested in what caused the WTC towers to collapse, start here:
http://wtc.nist.gov/reports_october05.htm
The NIST reports are complete, thorough and credible--debunking each and every one of the hysterical conspiracy theories. That doesn't mean, of course, that some retards won't still believe a conspiracy exists.
Curt
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:13am PT
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When asked to tell us whet he thinks President Bush should have done to prevent our being attacked on Sept. 11, 2001, Snooky lists these specific items:
-"done many things"
-"plenty of things he could have done"
There you have it!
Execute The Bastard!
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snooky
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:23am PT
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You left out inform the FAA. I knew you would have some ignorant comeback. If you are so uninformed on this issue it isn't my fault, inform yourself or stay ignorant Chaz.
Sometimes you gotta beat a dead horse but if you don't understand the blunder of this administration concerning 911 you are just dumb as a stump. Go inform your self Chaz because if you don't know how stupid the Bush team was every step of the way before 911 you need professional help.
They are hiring to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic over at the White House Chaz, you would be perfect for the job.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2006 - 02:26am PT
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LEB-
It sounds like you're looking below the surface regarding Kennedy, but don't think it's needed for 9-11.
BTW,
I don't think Bush is evil, of that its about Republicans. Clinton bombed the sh#t out of Iraq, and embargo'd medical supplies, and shipped your job off with NAFTA. We live in a pretty wacked culture. Count the number of nuclear warheads. Just because it's normal, doesn't mean it's sane. I think it was Joanna Macy had an exercise about taking stock of your personal weaponry. Do I have high explosives? cluster bombs, napalm, tear gas, tazer, armor?
Also,
I didn't read the Popular Mechanics book, I read an article in the mag on the subject.
What's the title of the Book?
Jay
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:33am PT
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Snooky says:
"What isn't funny Jaun is the fact Bush had warning about 911 and didn't do anything about it."
But he fails to say what specific things President Bush, or anyone else, could have done to prevent our being attacked.
At the time we were attacked there were 37,000 commercial airline flights a day in the U.S. That's a million flights a month.
We would have had to do a hell of a lot more than "inform the FAA" to keep from being attacked.
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snooky
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:41am PT
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That plainly shows you ignorance regarding this subject. If you read the 911 Commission report it will say that warning the FAA was one of the more important things that could have been done. When you get a memo that says there is a good chance of an attack with airliners you warn the FAA. Pretty simple Chaz.
Again, you obviously are just spewing lame arguments and do yourself a favor and read the 911 Commission report and you will understand your ignorance.
It doesn't matter how many flights there are a day, if airports had been shut down 911 would've never happened. If you don't think that was an option well you are dumber than a stump.
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Gene
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:43am PT
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Didn't OBL 'fess up to the dark deed? Or is on the payroll, too. Hope he enjoys his billions in his cave with his multiple veiled wives.
That's it. An international conspiracy involving thousands about which none having information will talk.
If more than one knows, it's no secret.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2006 - 02:52am PT
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From the NIST report:
"In WTC1.....The damage to the core columns resulted in local load redistribution to the remaining core columns. The subsequent fire induced high temperatures caused the core to displace downward from plasticity and high creep strains in high stress and high temperatures."
So they're saying that the 47 massive reinforced steel columns sank into themselves from "high creep strains" a hundred stories worth in 10 seconds. WTF.
Want to buy a bridge?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:58am PT
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Snooky writes:
"if airports had been shut down 911 would have never happened"
Brilliant!
President Bush should have "shut down" the airports!
And I'M the one Snooky says has "lame arguments" and needs "professional help".
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snooky
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:02am PT
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You are really a lame one, yes that is exactly what should've been done.
Your argument is let all those people die.....No dumbass, shutting down the airports would've been the responsible thing to do.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:05am PT
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Enough of this. Let's hit on what FDR knew or should have known about Pearl Harbor. Then let's go after Custer; he knew the injuns were aout there, very curious for sure. Oh, and the Tonkin Gulf; that should keep us going for awhile.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:05am PT
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No really Snooky, what should President Bush have done to prevent our being attacked?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:07am PT
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Lois wrote
"Well, Karl, there is never any harm to checking anything out but I think on this one (conspiracy theory) you are barking up an improbable tree. I think it is a classic case of seeking complex explanations for given phenomenon when a more simple one will do, as well. "
What are you talking about Lois. I'm not talking about 9-11, I'm talking about Iraq and there is a LOT of evidence that the administration knew that it wasn't an looming WMD threat. It's far from conspiracy theory. I believe it's nearly proved but Bush has been protected by a sheep-like congress.
It's not a complicated explanation. We're going to run short on oil. Bush is an Oil man. Iraq has major oil reserves. Saddam was an unpopular dictator who was totally toothless after a decade of sanctions. Those idiots thought they could roll in, ditch Saddam and be heros with the Iraqi people and get a great deal on oil, a better place for their mid-east military bases (cause Bin Laden wanted us out of Saudi Arabia and we complied).
They hoped when the rest of the Arab world saw how we kissed Iraq's ass, they'd cooperate with us. Cheney, when asked why he invaded Iraq, said, "Because it was doable."
We didn't invade Iraq because it was a threat. We invaded because it wasn't. The Downing Street memos make this clear.
Lois, why do I waste me time writing for you? Do you even know what the Downing Street memos were? Do you know what Ambassador Wilson said after visiting Nigeria and what Bush said in his state of the Union address anyway after it was clearly contradicted in advance? Why don't state some facts to back up your statement?
Who knows what Bush knew or didn't know about 9-11? We do know that he publically claimed to have seen video of the first plane hitting the tower on TV before he entered the classroom to read "my pet goat" He said "I thought, that must have been a very bad pilot!" Since no video was available before that time, we know he was mistaken or lying. Since he made that statement right way, It's hard to imagine him being mistaken. Why did he say that? I don't know. It's a conspiracy theory no matter what happened on 9-11. I want answers but am not making accusations.
I AM making those accusations regarding Iraq. Don't say it's "conspiracy theory" unless you have facts to back up your own theory that he was just a truthful idiot that thought Iraq was about to attack with WMDs anyday if we didn't abandon Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan and attack Iraq even though WMD inspectors were on the ground, getting good access, and not finding anything.
Peace
Karl
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snooky
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:12am PT
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No really Chaz, get a clue. What he should have done was to pay attention to the endless stream of intelligence reports that said Al Qaeda was going to highjack airliners and use them as weapons and perhaps fly them into high value targets.
Karl, a memo was given to Bush and it made its way around the administration that said to the effect that airliners would be used for some sort of attack and perhaps into buildings. As a matter of fact the same warnings came about during the Clinton administration so there had been a protocol put into place and this was ignored by Bush and others.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2006 - 03:12am PT
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Go Karl.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:16am PT
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Snooky writes:
"I know your stupid but give it a try "
That should be "you're", Mensa!
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:31am PT
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I am old enough to remember a time before 9-11-01.
There is no way the American people would have gone along with having the airports "shut down" for even one day, let alone the several months it would have taken to prevent our being attacked.
Hell, we wouldn't put up with it TODAY!
So how about telling us, realisticly what could have been done to prevent our being attacked?
Using Snooky "Logic" we should "shut down" all the roads and highways in America because about 40,000 people die on the roads every year. That's like a "September 11" every month, every year.
What would have worked, without inconviencing ANY Americans, is to send every Muslim who is not an American Citizen back to where they came from the day President Bush took office.
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snooky
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:44am PT
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There is no way the American people would have gone along with having the airports "shut down" for even one day, let alone the several months it would have taken to prevent our being attacked.
Bullsh#t, the airports were closed down for days after 911 and people put up with it.
Inconvenience is a must when public safety is concerned. And as far as highway death is concerned we are talking about terror not car crashes.
Chaz you are a moron and maybe you forget the meds tonight but responding to you is laughable. If you read the 911 report you can read many things that the Bush administration ignored that could have made a difference. On page 206 there are footnotes that lead the memo about warning that Ms.Rice called historical in nature before congress. But they vividly warn of attack with aircraft against high value targets. Now if you as dumb as Chaz you can't read footnotes, oh well.
The bottom line is Bush received and ignored advanced warning of a plan by Al Qaeda to highjack passenger planes and fly them into buildings. People like Chaz are in denial and that is why they have a lame duck hero as Presnit. The Chaz types are the extremely lame minority of people that can't seem to get the fact that Bush was asleep at the wheel...duhhh Chaz.
Now as far as sending all Muslins to ??? that statement alone points out what an ignorant person you are. Now I understand i am trading comments with a bigot.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:52am PT
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Snooky writes:
"you are stupid and can't use Google and read the 911 report"
And you know this how?
I have a copy of the 9-11 report in front of me.
Please tell me on what number page I can find where it says President Bush should "shut down" the airports.
Snooky writes:
"Now as far as sending all Muslins to ??? that statement alone points out what an ignorant person you are. Now I understand i am trading comments with a bigot."
Besides not knowing the difference between "your", "yore", and "you're" until I educated him about an hour ago, Snooky has never read The United States Constitution.
If he had read The Constitution, and possessed even average reading comprehension skills, he would have seen Article 1 Section 8, which gives Congress the Power "To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization".
"ALL Muslims who are not citizens go home" sounds pretty "uniform" to me.
Would have worked too.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 04:53am PT
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That's not what page 206 of my copy of the 9/11 Commission Report says.
In case you think I'm bullshitting about having a copy in front of me, here it is, sitting on top of this morning's L.A. Times:
Try again!
EDIT: Snooky has deleted multiple posts from this thread.
Can't say I blame him!
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Blight
Social climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 05:44am PT
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Didn't OBL 'fess up to the dark deed?
The US government said their troops "found" a tape of Osama Bin Laden confessing to the 9/11 attacks in Jalalabad after the invasion.
Bin laden himself said before the tape was "found" that he had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. The person in the "found" tape (because that's the sort of thing Bin Laden would just leave lying around - "hey Yusef! What did I do with that tape of me confessing to the worst terrorist atrocities in human history? I left it in the guest house? DAMN!") doesn't look anything like Bin Laden.
So who is it really and who made the tape? Well, anyone can guess that.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Nov 10, 2006 - 09:07am PT
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Here's my two cents...
What kind of idiot reads a book upside?
Of course, on the other hand, somebody who CAN read a book upside down may actually have some intelligence.
But that sure ain't me. I flipped my monitor upside down and couldn't read any of this thread.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 10, 2006 - 09:40am PT
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woodcraft,
It's a whole bunch of structural engineers and materials scientists that are saying that the plane crash and fire caused the towers to fall. Personally I believe those guys, as that is their area of expertise, more than I believe a BYU astronomy professor.
The reason why the building pancaked so quickly has a lot to do with mass and momemtum. Once one floor failed, you suddenly had incredibly large amounts of weight falling onto lower floors. The support columns were designed to hold static loads, not massive dynamic impacts.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:01am PT
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"Can you imagine what would have happened today if Bush attempted to seal any evidence garnered in an investigation of say 9/11. "
He totally has! They call it "National Security" and nobody says boo.
Lois, there's obvious a huge difference between Clinton's blow job and Bush's blowing up job which cost hundreds of thousands of lives including plenty of Americans. Did you know the US spent about 130 million dollars on Saddam's trial?
Peace
Karl
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flyxc
Trad climber
Otisfield, Maine
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:05am PT
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Here are two great refutations of the 9-11 conspiracy.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11818067/the_low_post_the_hopeless_stupidity_of_911_conspiracies
http://www.buffalobeast.com/109/murrah_redux.htm
From the last paragraph
"There's not a whole lot of difference, psychologically, between Sean Hannity's followers believing liberals to be the same as terrorists, and 9/11 Truthers believing even the lowest soldier or rank-and-file FAA or NORAD official to be a cold-blooded mass murderer. In both cases you have to be far gone enough into your private world of silly tribal bullshit that the concept of "your fellow citizen" has ceased to have any meaning whatsoever. It may be that America has become too big and complicated for most people to deal with being part of. People are longing for a smaller, stupider reality. Some, like Bush, sell a prepackaged version. Others just make theirs up out of thin air. God help us"
Fun reading!!
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2006 - 11:07am PT
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Try this experiment:
The NIST report says that the core columns were caused to "displace downward from plasticity and high creep strains in high stress and high temperatures".
Find a chain-link fence post imbedded in the ground that is 3 or 6 or whatever feet high. This will represent the 47 core columns.
Stack concrete blocks on the post, 500, or 1000, or 2000 pounds. This represents the weight of the building.
Measure the height of the post.
Invite all your friends to bring propane torches. This will represent the fire induced high temps. Jet fuel is basically kerosene- think of a kerosene lamp with the wick up-smoky flame, like is seen in the twin towers, so propane should provide higher potential heat.
Have everyone train the torches on the post- thirty or more would be good. (careful). Start the timekeeping.
Torch the loaded post until the fuel runs out. Use more fuel if desired. Really heat
that thing!
Hit the post with hammers to represent shock loads. (careful)
Measure the downward displacement from plasticity and high creep strains.
Calculate the elapsed time for the column to become 6" high.
Review official story, and think about it.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:37am PT
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OK, all you Official Conspiracy Theorists (OCTers) who are apologists for the Bush Crime Family (BCF) and the Neo-con Rethug Administration, pull your heads out of your a**es since we aren't buying it anymore.
We 9-11 Truthers (CTers) know that they 9-11 MIHOPed the whole thing. The amount of evidence that demonstrates means, motive, and opportunity and the vast amount of physical evidence in the form of actual wreckage that has been tested and where Dr. Jones has found Thermite/Thermate residue, and 9-11 dust being analyzed finding explosive residue throughout is without question. The shear volume of photographic and video evidence, and the personal eye-witness testimonies from the fire-men, police officers, and rescue workers is over whelming and it all says and points to 9-11 was an inside job.
For anyone to think for a moment that 19 Islamic hi-jackers with box-cutter knives could pull-off 9-11 and make NORAD stand-down . . . then what mind altering hallucinagenics are you snorting?
9-11 Truth Seekers (CTers) are in very good company:
Senior Military, Intelligence, and Government Officials Question 9/11 Commission Report
http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport
Try calling them nuts or crazy.
9/11 Statement Signed by 100 Prominent Americans
http://www.wanttoknow.info/911statement
Wake-up and smell the MIHOP or you will be the last to know on the face of the Earth. Get educated and learn something . . .
The films I would watch and the order I would watch them in:
Aaron Russo's "America: Freedom to Fascism" authorized version:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en-AU
Terror Storm with Alex Jones (video)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5792753647750188322
9/11 Mysteries (video)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003
Loose Change, 2nd Edition (Recut)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501
9/11: A Conversation with Jim Fetzer (video)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=590053292130233240
I don't believe in the death penalty. Try them all in an International Court of Law, find who is responsible or went along with the plan, convict them all, give them all multiple life-time sentences and throw the keys away forever. Let them rot in a Gitmo like prison, and have a taste of their own medicine.
Let it be so.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:38am PT
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Of all the thread joints in all the world, why do so many idiots have to come into ours?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:44am PT
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Woody...I'ma comin' ta Jtree in a few weeks, and I suggest you better make sure you don't git stuck with me on the beelay end o yer rope....I'll wait til you're at the cruxiest section of crux and....shortrope you until you beg - BEG, I say - beg to be forgiven for all your impudence here against the fair SuperTacoers Against Bush (STAB).
Watch out - I'm comin to git Ya!!!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:46am PT
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Woodcraft,
Exactly what credentials do you have that make you think that experiment replicates the World Trade Center situation? Did you just guess at that? Or are you actually a structural engineer with experience in failure analysis?
Just because I can't make my paper airplane fly well with a plastic army man sitting in it doesn't mean that there aren't passenger jets flying around carrying hundreds of people.
And exactly who has claimed that support columns were vertically compressed to 6"?
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2006 - 12:26pm PT
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Stevep,
I am a building contractor, qualified by common sense, and a lifetime of making and fixing things. I've done welding, use an acetyene torch regularly, Build and take down buildings. I have direct experience of what it takes to melt steel. I have closely observed building fires. I'm not a structural engineer, but frequently negotiate with them to adjust their theoretical calculations to real site conditions.
The experiment is to illustrate that even if you accept the "pancake theory" there would still be a core column sticking up hundreds of feet in the air. Have you had to replace your fireplace grate because it melted? Have you seen photos of burning high rise buildings- hours and hours of raging inferno- no structural collapse, let alone in 10 seconds.
Wake up, man. See what you're looking at.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:38pm PT
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Granite's explanation from the article makes the most sense so far. You can all relax, it wasn't a massive conspiracy. You're all paranoid schizophrenics, that's all. Cheers!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 10, 2006 - 01:12pm PT
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woodcraft,
It sounds like you're more qualified than many who take this on, but I'd argue that your experience in what sounds like smaller scale construction doesn't necessarily apply to this case. Nor does experience watching small fires, or even other fires in other high-rise buildings. The WTC event was very unique. No other high rise fires have been caused by large aircraft flying into them. It was the combination of the structural damage caused by the impact, and the fire that caused the failure. The WTC also had relatively unusual construction for a skyscraper, and this had some distictive effects on this disaster.
As for melting steel, the fire didn't get hot enough to do that. The official analysis admits that. But for things to fail, they don't have to melt, just be weakened, and it sounds like it did get hot enough for that.
As for why there weren't 800 ft high structural columns left standing...those weren't 800 ft long pieces of steel. They had joints would be likely to shear at those joints.
On WTC7, I don't know that I've seen a good explanation that completely understands why that building collapsed. Just somereasonable theories. But those theories are still more believable to me thatn purposeful demolition.
And with all that said, I'm definitely not a Bush apologist. He and the rest of the admin effed up royally in Iraq and should be held accountable for that. I just don't happen to think that they planned 9/11.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 10, 2006 - 01:14pm PT
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Happiegirl,
You forget I climb with Locker, which means, most of what I do roped is free solo anyway.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Nov 10, 2006 - 01:37pm PT
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...I don't forget....
Gonna give you a 10.2mm dryrope wedgie, Woody.... Right when you've climbed above that littlest micronut that wouldn't hold the weight of a lizard's tail flicking the draw as it scampers passsstttt....
say UNCLE!!!
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2006 - 01:43pm PT
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Klimmer-
Thanks for the links.
Paul Craig Roberts PhD. asst treasury secretary under Reagan:
"We know that it is strictly impossible for any building, much less a steel columned building, to 'pancake' at free fall speed. Therefore it is a non- controversial fact that the official explaination of the collapse of the WTC buildings is false."
So, we've been directed to- Popular Mechanics, Rolling Stone, Psychology today, a writer who was spit on, the 9-11 report (see above), and the NIST report (mumbo-jumbo about 'local load redistribution, etc.) Okaaaay
I hope this has been as fun for you as it has for me- gotta go.
Remember to ask your friends and neighbors- Why did building #7 collapse?
see you at the crags, Jay
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:23pm PT
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Yes indeed. Ask why and how did WTC 7 come down and what do you find? The 9-11 Commission Report ignored it. NIST had no explaination, however, the owner of the WTC towers Larry Silverstein, who before 9-11 occured insured his towers against terrorist attacks for billions of dollars admits on film how WTC 7 came down . . .
Silverstein makes the decision to “Pull it” to demolish (CD) WTC 7 on 9-11-01:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7750532340306101329&q=Silverstein%2C+Pull+it&hl=en
The 9-11 Truther “Sure” calls a CD company and gets clarification for the phrase “Pull it.” What does “Pull-it” mean in the CD world?:
http://www.pumpitout.com/audio/pull_it_mix.mp3
http://www.pumpitout.com/ (Sure’s website)
Edit: Still not convinced? How about CD on WTC 6 after the clean-up. Here they discuss it . . . http://www.pumpitout.com/movie/pulling_wtc_6.mp4
Now we have it. WTC 7 was brought down by CD and the physical evidence says so in addition. So, since WTC 7 came down with CD, don't you think it puts WTC Tower 1 and 2's collapse in a new light? It sure does. And once again the means, motive, opportunity and the physical and eye-witness testimonies, all of this evidence screams so.
Book'em Dano.
Now let's go climb.
Further edit: Why does Silverstein lie about what he said in the NOVA program? Why does the 9-11 Commission Report ignore WTC 7? Why is NIST ignorant of how WTC 7 falls and has absolutely no explaination? Why does the BCF shill and apologist for the OCT from Popular Mechanics Magazine outright lie about "Pull it" not being used in the CD industry or having ever heard that term before used in that context? Everybody knows unless you are absolutely a numb skull . . .
Because they are covering for the crime of the century --- 9/11 MIHOP.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:26pm PT
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Thanks for that link Klimmer, and thanks woodcraft, Karl, warbler etc.
And the real idiots like WoodySt, Chaz et al are beginning to look very very poor. Rolling Stones? for a credible news source.
You guys really truly blow me away, ugh & gag!!!!!!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:46pm PT
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Isn't it possible that the controlled demolition was done because the building was too compromised to salvage or allow to remain standing? I was under the impression that the Fire Dept. didn't want to go inside to quell the fire because the building was so compromised, so they 'pulled it' with the buiding owners consent. That's the way I heard it anyway.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:50pm PT
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It think it's kinda the wrong way to go looking at how the buildings fell and so on. I'd just like some investigation instead of whitewash on some issues along these lines, so we'd have the answers:
*. Details and reasons for the 9-11 war games that took fighters away from NY and DC and placed false blips on radar screens to air controllers couldn't tell what's real or not. (At least that's been reported)
* Details about operation Able Danger, pre 9-11 surveilance of Mohammed Atta
* 9-11 financing: How involved were the Saudis? (remember the redacted pages of the 9-11 report?) Did the Head of Pakistani intel, who met with George Tenet on 9-11 in DC, really wire $100,000 to Mohammed Atta as reported by the Time of India immediately after 9-11.
* Why were the interview tapes with 9-11 air controllers destroyed?
* On who's orders was so much physical evidence of 9-11 hauled off and destroyed without analysis/
* Why did the administration claim that they never dreamed anyone would use a plane as a weapon when they had done plenty of thinking and planning along those lines/
* Who WERE the 9-11 highjackers. Remember, some of them turned up alive after 9-11 in other countries. George Tenent was asked about it and explained that some highjackers might have been under assumed names. But those assumed names are still listed as the official culprits. WHy? Who did it and who were they linked to?
Some time as passed. National Security might be a valid or lame excuse to keep some of this stuff secret but job security is a more likely explanation for some of it.
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:04pm PT
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Karl, actually Curt Weldon (r-pennsylvania, I believe)did alot of probing into Able Danger. He still is I believe. He also did a probe into what documents Sandy Berger destroyed from the national archives to keep from the 911 commission. After continually hounding on these two issues, the FBI began inverstigating his daughter on things that she had been cleared of 2 years prior by the House. Maybe old Curt was too close to something?
Edit: Link added http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20050917&articleId=965
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snooky
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:06pm PT
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Good questions Karl. One question still lurks about why members of the BinLaden family had flights out the the USA arranged for them when ALL non-military flights were grounded. All airports were closed for days but they got flights home??
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:15pm PT
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If we can spend 130 million on Saddam's trial, we can at least get open and honest answers to one of the biggest landmarks in our history.
Then the conspiracy theories could be laid to rest.
Otherwise it will linger far longer and stonger than even the Kennedy stuff.
Peace
karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:17pm PT
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Chaz:
This is one of the funniest things I have read in a long time:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x56836#56838[/i]
Chaz, Thanks for posting this. Hilarious! Even better then a Monty Python thread.
From that dude's post: "What I conclude is that a fairly flimsy steel structure does not distort and bend and collapse very easily from a simple hydrocarbon fire."
Hmm, then why do building codes require encasing steel beams with fireproof coverings? Or does that just "prove" that the people who wrote the building codes were part of the conspiracy! :-) There is a more plausible explanation here (written by a co-conspirator undoubtedly :-) : http://vincentdunn.com/wtc.html
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 10, 2006 - 04:21pm PT
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Happiegirl,
You're dealing with someone who initially climbed barefooted, with a rope woven out of reeds and used small stones and marbles for pro. Nothing can faze me. I even like falling; ask locker.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 04:28pm PT
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The incompetance is just a limited hang-out excuse. I don't believe the questions I asked are adequate (or sometimes at all) addressed in the 9-11 commission report, which avoided the tough issues, including the collapse of building 7.
The Sept 11 commission chairmen have already admitted downplaying the role of US policy towards Israel in their findings for purely political reasons and also admit this"
from
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/003223.htm
"The 9/11 Commission was supposed to give the America people a complete, unbiased story of the government failures that led up to the September 11 terrorist attacks. But the Commission now admits its acclaimed Final Report ignored key information provided by a U.S. Army data mining project, Able Danger, which identified Mohammed Atta and several other hijackers as potential terrorists prior to the September 11 attacks. The Able Danger team recommended that Atta and the other suspected terrorists be deported. That recommendation, however, was not shared with law enforcement officials, presumably because of the "wall" between intelligence activities and domestic law enforcement.
According to the New York Times, the 9/11 Commission officials said that Able Danger had not been included in their report because some of the information sounded inconsistent with what they thought they knew about Atta.
In other words, the Commission staffers were told about the project but ignored it because it didn't fit their pre-conceived conclusions."
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 04:55pm PT
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Hey them right wingers are good at green cards. I've voted for the Republican Radonovich for the past two elections as payback for a green card his office very efficiently got for a friend of mine.
Of course, since he was going to get elected anyway, it was a safe vote
Peace
karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 10, 2006 - 05:17pm PT
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"In other words, the Commission staffers were told about the project but ignored it because it didn't fit their pre-conceived conclusions."
Your conlusion. Or they carefully considered it and found it to be not credible based on the weight of the evidence.
But Karl, reading your post above, I really don't know what to make of your position. Your arguments are seemingly contradictory. The only common thread is that the WTC attack was a U.S. government conspiracy (a pre-conceived conclusion). Did an Al Queda team led by Atta fly planes into the building or was the attack an "inside" job with pre-set explosives? If it wasn't a terrorist attack, how could 9/11 Commission be covering that up?
Edit: Karl, you keep coming back to WTC 7. Please explain exactly how you think the collapse of WTC 7 is evidence of a conspiracy. I've seen various arguements regarding WTC & but haven't seen anything credible.
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andanother
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 05:31pm PT
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fattard wrote:
"The poll that someone posted last week that reported that 40% considered their religion above being a US citizen should prompt deportations."
It blows my mind that anyone can say such stupid, hypocritical things. You lack the ability to comprehend and think ABOUT things. You just regurgitate the sh#t you happen to overhear on TV or the radio.
So fattard, where should we deport all those right wing conservative christians that have live in the US for many generations?
Do you honestly beleive that christians are somehow different than muslims or jews? Are you really that stupid?
Because I guarantee that 100% of christians consider their religion more important than their citizenship.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 10, 2006 - 05:36pm PT
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"You're dealing with someone who initially climbed barefooted, with a rope woven out of reeds and used small stones and marbles for pro. Nothing can faze me. I even like falling; ask locker. "
Hey, I did start climbing barefoot and still do on some routes when I'm back in S.I. and I still use stones for pro on occasion (I've got one I've been using for 17 years for one particular placement), but I have to admit we used goldline instead of weaving our own, though there was plenty of hemp around if we had decided to*. And falling? What would be the point of climbing except for falling? It would be completely boring without falling.
[ Note on weaving rope with hemp: Members of our tribe with certain skills and positions in the chem labs made regular runs to the remants of the "old growth" WWII hemp fields in eastern Kansas to stuff their trunks with the raw materials of a particularly nasty oil they produced semi-annually. We noted at the time what a good rope making material it was, though we kept fogetting whether the next twist was to the right or left when attempting it. Really hard to make rope under such trying circumstances... ]
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 05:49pm PT
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GraniteClimber
I only accusation I'm making is that we're not getting the whole story. I want to whole story and that includes World Trade Center 7.
As for Mohammed Atta, read it again
"But the Commission now admits its acclaimed Final Report ignored key information provided by a U.S. Army data mining project, Able Danger, which identified Mohammed Atta and several other hijackers as potential terrorists prior to the September 11 attacks. The Able Danger team recommended that Atta and the other suspected terrorists be deported. That recommendation, however, was not shared with law enforcement officials, presumably because of the "wall" between intelligence activities and domestic law enforcement.
According to the New York Times, the 9/11 Commission officials said that Able Danger had not been included in their report because some of the information sounded inconsistent with what they thought they knew about Atta. "
Not good enough. There was clear and credible evidence that the Feds knew about Mohammed Atta before 9-11 and wanted him deported but dropped the ball on it. If that info didn't belong in the report, it should have been included anyway with a disclaimer of why it was irrelevant. Whitewash.
And Fatty, realistically speaking, every singe truly religious person in the world puts God before Country. God made Country. God's passport is more significant. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or not really faithful.
So the real question is "where do God and Country conflict?"
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 10, 2006 - 06:11pm PT
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"There was clear and credible evidence that the Feds knew about Mohammed Atta before 9-11 and wanted him deported but dropped the ball on it."
This is undeniable, but all the hullabaloo about who knew and reported/presented what and when is a bit over played all the way around.
As far as the attacks themselves go - they were easily preventable with one easy-to-implement measure: a robust monitoring protocol for applicants to all the major flight schools in the US and EU would have stopped these particular attacks cold. Coming from a family of commercial pilots I can testify that there were no formal protocols in place for this has long cultural roots in the fact that such schools have a long history of being associated with male, monied, ex-military, and republican stereotypes. They were also real money makers that fed off a steady stream of Middle Eastern clients and patrons including members of a number of royal families from the region. This was more of a cultural blindspot aided and abetted by the owners of the schools who as a class resisted such measures because they considered them as an "insult" or blemish on their patriotism.
But the FBI agents in Phoenix and Minneapolis were on it - they understood these schools were the bottleneck where such attacks could be detected and stopped; where such plots could be identified as a matter of course had formal protocols been in place prior to 9/11. This would have been easy and inexpensive to implement as the number of schools and students is so small as to be trivial from a policing and intel perspective. Sad such a blatant security hole passed unnoticed, but again there were real cultural reasons why this was the case and why FBI higher ups were loathe to pursue those leads.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 10, 2006 - 06:27pm PT
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"Try this experiment:
The NIST report says that the core columns were caused to "displace downward from plasticity and high creep strains in high stress and high temperatures".
Find a chain-link fence post imbedded in the ground that is 3 or 6 or whatever feet high. This will represent the 47 core columns.
Stack concrete blocks on the post, 500, or 1000, or 2000 pounds. This represents the weight of the building.
Measure the height of the post.
Invite all your friends to bring propane torches. This will represent the fire induced high temps. Jet fuel is basically kerosene- think of a kerosene lamp with the wick up-smoky flame, like is seen in the twin towers, so propane should provide higher potential heat.
Have everyone train the torches on the post- thirty or more would be good. (careful). Start the timekeeping.
Torch the loaded post until the fuel runs out. Use more fuel if desired. Really heat
that thing!
Hit the post with hammers to represent shock loads. (careful)
Measure the downward displacement from plasticity and high creep strains.
Calculate the elapsed time for the column to become 6" high.
Review official story, and think about it."
Here is a much better quote from the NIST report:
"The specific factors in the collapse sequences relevant to both towers (the sequences vary in detail for WTC 1 and WTC 2) are:
1) Each aircraft severed perimeter columns, damaged interior core columns and knocked off fireproofing from steel as the planes penetrated the buildings. The weight carried by the severed columns was distributed to other columns.
2) Subsequently, fires began that were initiated by the aircraft’s jet fuel but were fed for the most part by the building contents and the air supply resulting from breached walls and fire-induced window breakage.
3)These fires, in combination with the dislodged fireproofing, were responsible for a chain of events in which the building core weakened and began losing its ability to carry loads.
The floors weakened and sagged from the fires, pulling inward on the perimeter columns.
4)Floor sagging and exposure to high temperatures caused the perimeter columns to bow inward and buckle—a process that spread across the faces of the buildings.
Collapse then ensued.
The sequences are supported by extensive computer modeling and the evidence held by NIST, including photographs and videos, recovered steel, eyewitness accounts and emergency communication records."
What's not clear is whether you think we're all stupid or just that you're stupid yourself. I suppose it doesn't really matter--except as it relates to intent.
Curt
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Wheatus
Social climber
CA
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Nov 10, 2006 - 07:49pm PT
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I can't believe how many people believe the crap on the "911TRUTH" website. They should change the site name to "911FORMORONS". What is even more amazing is how many relatively intelligent people believe that the moon landing was faked (a simple movie set) and that aliens from outer space visit us regularly.
The analysis of the collapse of the World Trade Center was conducted by a group of the finest structural engineers in the country. I know some of the authors of the study through there lectures on related subjects and their integrity is beyond reproach. There is no conspiracy by the authors of the report by the 911 commission on the cause of the collapse.
I have personally designed hundreds of buildings all over the world as a practicing licensed California structural engineer. I have read most of the technical papers on the collapse. The "progressive" collapse was the result of many factors outline in the NIST (see Curt's reply above). Many government buildings have been modified since 911 due to the WTC research and the continuing research on how to prevent "Progressive Collapse".
Look carefully at the video footage of the collapse. Just before the progressive collapse the upper stories above the impact zone twist (torsional instability) and then the collapse starts pancaking down from the impact zone not from the base of the tower. If there were demolition charges in the base of the building the tower would have collapsed from the bottom floors not starting at the impact zone. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure that one out. Look carefully at the footage and it becomes obvious.
I personally think the conspiracy theorist give Bush way too much credit. I don't think he is remotely mentally capable of thinking up such a scheme in the first place.
P.S. I must admit my belief in God appears just as moronic as the conspiracy theorists since there is not a shred of physical proof he/she exists. That is the funny part about life......one persons belief can be perceived by others as garbage and visa versa. The reality is that we can never truly know the absolute truth in this life unless you are Rush Limbaugh.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 08:29pm PT
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Wheatus wrote:
"P.S. I must admit my belief in God appears just as moronic as the conspiracy theorists since there is not a shred of physical proof he/she exists. That is the funny part about life......one persons belief can be perceived by others as garbage and visa versa. The reality is that we can never truly know the absolute truth in this life unless you are Rush Limbaugh.'
Thank you for that bit of honesty and perspective. To take it a bit further, to believe in reality as presented to us by our senses is also pure foolishness. Science has well established that nearly everything is comprised of the very same vibrating energy and that the world around us, including ourselves, is comprised mostly of empty space. We are surrounded by countless invisible worlds including hundreds of TV channels, cell calls, and cosmic rays.
The world is not as we see it, no matter how we see it.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 09:54pm PT
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You are wrong Lois about Karl, I know him and he is definitely not trying to desperately make something true. That is the farthest from the real truth you'll ever get about him.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 10:08pm PT
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Lois, it's good that you live on the East coast so I can't conveniently strangle you. You wrote
"The problem, Karl, is that you desparately want it to true. This is the same problem Dan Rathers had with the Bush "font gate" debacle. He wanted it to be true so intensely that he lost all manner of objectivity. Accordingly, an otherwise competent newsman f up big time. "
Lois, in this thread I have mostly called for open inquiry, not thrwarted by political whitewashing. I stand by that and don't think it resembles your remarks at all.
Regarding the conduct of the war in Iraq, I have said things and backed them up with documents, links, and facts. Something you haven't done, so put up or shut up. Furthermore I haven't argued ever than either tower was put down by explosives, which is what Wheatus commented on. but since you don't read carefully, that's probably too subtle for you.
And also Lois, the basic facts that Dan Rather was reporting were true, true, true. It's just that the document was forged. Dan Rather got fired for believing a forged document but Bush got forged documents regarding the Nigerian uranium, was told they were forged and used that info in his state of the Union address to justify invasion. Why doesn't he resign? Oh wait, I just stated some facts and specifics. Your eyes have undoubtedly glossed over by now and I could call you a stupid bitch and you might not notice. Should I dare? Naw. I'm just upset much along the same lines as you might be if I posted something like
Lois, you keep stating that Bush is a fine president who merely got bad advice and you seem be calling for a third term. Don't you know that's against the law?
That's how close to restating my position you are.
Love and Kisses
Karl
Of course Lois, I believe Bush has commited criminal activity. Why? Because I studied what he did. Did you have to wait for the verdict of Saddam's trial to believe he was a criminal? If he's not, why did HR 6166 specifically create immunity for Bush and his crew for their war crimes? Just in case somebody like me misunderstood?
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Nov 10, 2006 - 10:30pm PT
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"The American people have taken the first step on the right path in order to get out of their impasse and have started to realize the treachery of their president and his subordination to Israel, voting for a measure of reason in the latest elections."
Abu Hamza al-Muhajer
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Nov 10, 2006 - 10:46pm PT
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FT; we just went over that Saud thing...Al Waleed owns controlling shares of (Newscorp) Fox and a good chunk of Citi...
"I picked up the phone and called Murdoch... (and told him) these are not Muslim riots, these are riots out of poverty," he said.
"Within 30 minutes, the title was changed from Muslim riots to civil riots."
Saud Approved™ (Fox News)...walk with me here...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:19pm PT
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Oh Lois, That was sweet! I got you!
And I give you credit for not deleting your post or editing it under the table.
I bet we'd be fine in person, just like everybody else here gets along at the crags
Peace
Karl
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:31pm PT
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Lois, You're correct. There are many people that want something to be true that no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary, they refuse to accept it. This is a "religious" mindset. It is a fanatical devotion to the fantastic that destroys any ability to rationality on the subject in question. You find this thinking among all fundamentalists, be it religious conviction, political ideology or an insane belief that Bush et al are responsible for the destruction of the Twin Towers.
You present these types with an enormous amount of expert analysis from independent and objective people from repected organizations and institutions, and they reject it. A plethora of information has been published explaining all from these groups, and it is pushed aside. This is analogous to the dispute between religious fundamentalists and science vis a vis evolution. They will hold firmly to their aberrant position and corrupted logic until the day they die because they are incapable of letting go of Bush hate. It's not worth any more effort dealing with these people than it is trying to convince a Biblical literalist that Adam and Eve are metaphorical.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:34pm PT
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http://vincentdunn.com/dunn/a&e/buildings.htm
According to this guy, the WTC towers were more vulnerable to collapse in a fire then most high rise buildings.
‑ Steel bar joist truss construction. The lightweight steel bar joist was used to support floors in the World Trade Center. This floor support is another form of lightweight floor and roof construction used throughout the country that has the fire service alarmed and is mistakenly blamed on architects, engineers and code officials. When unprotected, lightweight bar joist beams can fail within five to 10 minutes of fire exposure. The World Trade Center, constructed by the Port Authority, was the only high‑rise office building in New York City to use lightweight bar joist construction in high‑rise office building construction.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:47pm PT
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For happie
Woody...I'ma comin' ta Jtree in a few weeks, and I suggest you better make sure you don't git stuck with me on the beelay end o yer rope....I'll wait til you're at the cruxiest section of crux and....shortrope you until you beg - BEG, I say - beg to be forgiven for all your impudence here against the fair SuperTacoers Against Bush (STAB).
Watch out - I'm comin to git Ya!!!
He'll just untie the rope, finish the pitch, and then trundle a big boulder on your head, turning off his hearing aid so he can't hear the protestation.
I left a little company called ABM only a few months before 911. Ran a national accounts group for a division and was on a first name basis of managing parties at the WTC. Some aren't here any more! Every building engineer, janitor, electrician, elevator mechanic that worked in that building worked for us. No one could do anything in that building without our knowledge or approval. The planting of the conspiracists explosives would have involved cutting open walls in hundreds if not thousands of locations. The steel in a large building is buried behind the interior walls. There's no easy way to get to it.
Large buildings are like small towns. Everyone knows more than they should about everyone elses gossip.
It didn't happen!
Why are so many ready to discount the self proclaimed goals of an ideology who's aims have not changed or been continualy expressed since 600 AD, and have loudly claimed credit for, for a fantasy of self emulation?
Are you really that insane?
or do you just have your
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:58pm PT
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Conspiracy theory on how the secret government operatives wipe their mouths:
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:54pm PT
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You know it is really kind of funny.
The OCTers and Bush apologists will never be able to overcome the physical evidence that proves 9-11 was an inside job, yet they try, try, try.
The Genie is out of the bottle and there is no putting it back. Why do you all try so hard? It's fruit-less. It is like saying the Earth is the center of the Universe. Sorry evidence says otherwise.
The Church was wrong and couldn't silence Galileo, and neither can you silence 9-11 Truth.
Edit: Good luck in your ignorance.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2006 - 02:55pm PT
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LEB,
Sure some are not Bush apologists, so then they are OCTers. I identified two groups, OCTers and Bush apologists.
The evidence is overwhelming now. You can either look at the means, motive, opportunity evidence, or the physical evidence or the eye-witness testimony evidence. All together it all points clearly and without doubt to MIHOP. If you don't think so, that is your perogative, however then you haven't looked far enough or have your eyes closed.
Even when Galileo showed some priests using a telescope that the moons of Jupiter were in orbit around Jupiter, and not the Sun, proving that the Sun was not the center of the Universe, they didn't want to believe it, and denied what they were seeing.
OCTers and Bush apologists are in the same position. The facts speak for themselves, yet they denie them. What can we do with that? All the known evidence completely invalidates the OCT and supports the CT, yet you still don't believe.
Keep digging and asking and looking and maybe you will eventually overcome your doubt. But I don't think many OCTers really want to. They want to stay in ignorance.
Nothing more we can do then except talk and show those who are really willing to say "I want to know the truth, no matter what." Until you are in that position, you won't accept any evidence to the contrary.
I never wanted 9-11 MIHOP to be true. Once I was able to come to the point that I wanted to know the truth no matter what, then my eyes opened and I could clearly see the evidence objectively without bias.
When I came to know 9-11 MIHOP I was depressed for a few months. It is a hard road to travel. But my eyes are now wide open, and there is no going back. I know the truth, and I'm ultimately better for it. I know who the real enemy is. I don't have the fear that so many people have not knowing.
We all must travel our own road.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 03:15pm PT
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OCTers - Official Conspiracy Theory
MIHOP - Making It Happen On Purpose
Google is your friend ............
The US government will never disclose the full truth of 9/11, until the "people" force the issue.
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snooky
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 03:35pm PT
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One fact not to be overlooked when talking about MIHOP are the passages is the PNAC documents that say a new Pearl Harbor is needed to help rally general public support to invade Iraq. Also some of the first words out of Rummy and Cheney after 911 had to do with finding a way to blame the attack on Sadam. These statements only bolster the arguments and facts that point towards many unanswered questions about 911. Klimmer what is the lowdown on the Pentagon? Do you think was an jet or something else? Some say the explosion and damage was minor for a jet?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 11, 2006 - 04:08pm PT
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Yeah, it's been five years, that proves that what ever version of the truth they are pimping this week must be the right one.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 04:13pm PT
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Validating TGT's comments on the management of WTC 1 & 2. I design technology infrastructures as part of my consulting practice and part of that is network wiring infrastructures. Any installed explosives in the buildings - which, as TGT pointed out would be impossible to plant - would have to be triggered by wire to accomplish the task. And it would never be possible to do such a wiring job in any of those buildings without network managers being instantly aware of such goings on. First off they'd have to use the same races and trays, and the odds of anyone, even professionals, doing that without disrupting a single existing connection is nil. But the bottom line is there are no races, trays, drops, or access to the columns so aside from physically planting, attaching, or otherwise installing said explosives, you wouldn't be able to wire them.
And don't say wireless detonators - that works fine for individual IEDs, but in electrical storm that is lower Mahattan you wouldn't get five paces from them before they blew and even if you did you'd never get a clean timing. Such systems were only in crude development stage with inital patents in 1999 and were tested using 3m X 3m triggering antenna inside a deep mines to provide the necessary frequency isolation.
No charges were installed or detonated within any of the WTC buildings. Period. As TGT said, any one proffering or believing such theories clearly knows nothing about building maintenance, network infrastructures, or the use of explosives in demolition for that matter.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 05:29pm PT
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I think the evidence is stacking up in that direction. "
Lois, there is no "stacking up in that direction", massive degrees of incompetence and bureaucratic arrogance and hubris at all levels were responsible. 9/11 was entirely preventable at any one of a dozen clear points along the way. One of the most notable examples of arrogance was Phillipine Intel units tried repeatedly to warn us of the immediacy and gravity of the threat long before 9/11. But you have to take into account the level of arrogance, chauvenism, colonialism, paternalism, and superiority involved with the relationship between the U.S. military, intel, and diplomatic corps and their Phillipino counterparts. Our people have always viewed it as a one-way street - we tell them; they don't tell us. We, for all practical purposes, blew them off completely as we did all of the warnings that came from SE Asia.
Check the wall clock timing in the FAA control transcripts on the three building attacks. The Pentagon plane should have been shot down before making it to D.C. A stunning cascade of failures through an amazing array of systems and organizations resulted in our complete inability to scramble flights to protect the capital. We were lucky they picked the Pentagon which is reasonably robust, the Halls of Congress or the White House would have been complete losses by contrast.
There were lots of opportunity points lost on all fronts. This was systemic incompetence driven from the top to the bottom by faulty priorities, planning, and implementation that persist to this day because of the resources and focus squandered in Iraq.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 05:40pm PT
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No - there is no wireless technology anyone would risk using for explosives in the electical environment of lower Manhattan or within the towers themselves. There is absolutely nothing secret about the electrical spectrum or anyone's ability to exploit it. Any such advanced technologies have such high commercial value that there is no "government" technology development that is unknown to a broad array of pubic commercial interests.
But apart from that, again as TGT said, there was no way possible to access the columns to install a sufficient quantity of explosives without a very large number of building maintenance personnel being instantly aware of it. You simply can't tear open, install, and repair walls in that quantity without notice - it would be completely impossible. And given the buildings were not dropped from the bottom you would further have to be able to anticipate what floors the planes would hit and then give yourself some buffer floors. Again, the installation issue alone makes this impossible and similarly it would be unlikely that poorly trained and inexperienced pilots could have both hit pre-designated floors.
It's way, way past implausible - it is patently impossible.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2006 - 05:52pm PT
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Snooky,
The Pentagon anomalies is what first brought me to learning that 9-11 was an inside job. Plenty of websites now out there with all the initial images taken at the Pentagon immediatley after the impact that show the first primary hole to be no more than about 12 x 16 ft or so in size prior to the roof collapsing about a half-hour later, showing many of the glass windows around the impact hole to still be intact. The vertical stabalizer would have left massive damage and no windows intact. Can't fit an entire 757 through that size hole. Where are the wings that should have impacted the outside facad and sheared-off or other? Where are the 2 massive engines (approx. 6 ft or more in diameter) that would have made massive gaping holes? They say the jet more or less vaporized on impact yet they find all the passengers and can identify them using DNA analysis? There are eyewitnesses and Pentagon personel that walked out the original hole soon after the impact, yet before the roof collapsed who say "What jet? What wreckage?" The guys who did "Loose Change" have these interviews and testimonies on tape, and are now available on Google video or other.
The evidence that was found and the damage caused is consistant with a small military jet aircraft and missile, http://www.physics911.net/ or a missile alone. A few parts of the aircraft point to it being a A-3 Skywarrior
( http://www.karlschwarz.com/02-02-05_Schwarz.pdf ) not a 757. By the way it isn't hard to plant jet wreckage and false evidence. This side of the Pentagon had been undergoing construction renovation for some time.
And infact, we have all seen the video released by the Pentagon that was shown on Mainstream Media (MSM) and shows something other than a 757 approaching the Pentagon, something much smaller trailing smoke (or a contrail like phenomenon) very low to the ground and from a very specific direction.
All kinds of tapes were confiscated immediately on 9-11 around the Pentagon that would or could show what struck the Pentagon. And most have never been shown in public. And they rebuff all attempts to get or see them. Why? What is there to hide? We have seen the jets plow into the WTC towers countless times, over and over. Why can't we see the 757 plowing into the Pentagon? Perhaps because all the tapes that do have it on camera, show something other than a 757 flying into the Pentagon. If they are lying about one major aspect regarding 9-11 then they are lying about all of it.
Do you know that the NTSB has analyized the flight recorder and data, supposively from flight AA77 and it does not at all agree to the flight pattern and approach of what was caught on tape and released by the Pentagon? They can't even keep all their lies straight since they lie so often.
"Sure" is at it again. This guy has real balls to do this and to make these calls. Pretty hilarious really. His phone call on 10-26-06 to NTSB regarding AA77 Flight Data Recorder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPF4Lo4wkJ4&eurl=
New 9/11 Pentagon Data released by the NSTB:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F3TvRwh1x0&mode=related&search
Great website. These guys know whats up with 9-11. They are all Pilots for 9-11 Truth:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon.html
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:07pm PT
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Oh damn! I was going to reply, but the saucer just showed up; and I've got a new route lined up on a formation in the Sea of Tranquility.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:15pm PT
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Klimmer,
My fathers and brother have a collective time of over 80 years as commercial pilots for United and Fedex in all manner of equipment. All three find the "pilots for 9/11 truth" not credible. They point out that the ranks of commercial pilots contain no shortage of "nutjobs" just like society in general. All of the flight data - particularly instrumented altimeter and timing data were all entirly consistent with the events at the Pentagon relative to acceptable accuracy and calibration of the instruments. The physcal evidence at the scene was also entirely consistent with the equipment used for flight 77.
As to the issue of pilots giving up the flight deck to men with box cutters. They didn't give up the flight deck to men with box cutters - they gave them up to men with box cutters to flight attendants throats. Men like my Father and Brothers all said they would have done the same on 9/11 because no one warned the FAA (and by extension pilots) that there was intel about flying planes into buildings. Had the FAA and pilots been aware of such plots those flight decks would never have been relinquished regardless of who was killed. The fact that all four flight decks were relinquished tells you not only that the plotters behind the hijackers well understood this behavioral profile and dynamic of U.S. pilots as a class, but also that this is simply the sad truth behind those events.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:24pm PT
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Everyone claiming that they couldn't possibly wire, or even use remote wireless technology and set charges for CD to bring down the towers is absolutely wrong. They did it. And tenants who were there indicate what was going on for quite sometime before 9-11-01.
Watch the following video. It is one of the best regarding the CD of the towers. And listen to the tenants' testimony. Tell me it didn't happen.
9/11 Mysteries (video)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003
Regarding the possibility of remotely detonating the CD and doing so in the order they want and from the floor they want is not hard to do. The Electro-magnetic Spectrum is vast and mostly unused, every thing from Radio waves to gamma rays. I'm a HAM radio operator. Most of the thousands of frequencies I can legally talk on and use for voice, data, or sending images are unused (and should be thank God) and that is just HAM frequencies, just a very small portion of the entire EM spectrum.
More than likely, WTC 7 was the control center for 9-11 MIHOP, especially the floor that had blast resistant windows recently installed. That's another reason they had to bring down WTC 7. They couldn't allow someone to ask questions and wonder what that special floor in tower 7 was all about could they?
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snooky
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:33pm PT
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Thanks Klimmer, interesting comments and great links. The size of the hole in the side of the Pentagon is suspicious along with all those intact windows.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:34pm PT
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Klimmer,
Sorry, but you and your brethen are simply blind to the facts, science, engineering, operational, logistical, and coordination requirements involved.
And it isn't a matter of finding spectrum - it's a matter of finding stable, guaranteed unused spectrum and establishing timing wirelessly. It didn't happen.
That folks like you believe it did is simply an extension of the same human frailties that keep concepts like UFO's, Intelligent Design, and a faked lunar landings alive. Sad, and sadder still that cluelessness is growing in direct proportion with our continuing failure to educate our populace. Keep on trucking dude...
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johndoeX
Social climber
NY
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:42pm PT
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Quote -
"My fathers and brother have a collective time of over 80 years as commercial pilots for United and Fedex in all manner of equipment. All three find the "pilots for 9/11 truth" not credible. They point out that the ranks of commercial pilots contain no shortage of "nutjobs" just like society in general. All of the flight data - particularly instrumented altimeter and timing data were all entirly consistent with the events at the Pentagon relative to acceptable accuracy and calibration of the instruments. The physcal evidence at the scene was also entirely consistent with the equipment used for flight 77. "
Your fathers(you have more than one father?)and brother sound like crusty ol' pilots with their minds shut to the obvious conflicts analyzed by professional pilots and accident investigators. I see plenty like your "fathers" and brother flying the line. I usually have to hold their hand doing all the work when flying with those types.. while making most of the command decisions. Please tell them to research before they speak as all of the above issues you mention have been address ad naseum by experts.
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html
quote -
"As to the issue of pilots giving up the flight deck to men with box cutters. They didn't give up the flight deck to men with box cutters - they gave them up to men with box cutters to flight attendants throats. Men like my Father and Brothers all said they would have done the same on 9/11 because no one warned the FAA (and by extension pilots) that there was intel about flying planes into buildings. Had the FAA and pilots been aware of such plots those flight decks would never have been relinquished regardless of who was killed. The fact that all four flight decks were relinquished tells you not only that the plotters behind the hijackers well understood this behavioral profile and dynamic of U.S. pilots as a class, but also that this is simply the sad truth behind those events. "
Im sure your fatherS and brother's passengers would love to hear they are cowardly enough to give up their airplane to someone they dont know. The Common Strategy prior to 9/11 was to cooperate. .yes.. but it wasnt to give up the airplane to someone you have no idea if they know how to fly. Even if they kill 2 or 3 passengers/crew.. you give up your ship to someone you dont know.. you may ALL be dead.. as is what happened. In the days after 9/11.. all of us pilots felt that the 9/11 pilots had to be dead to give up their ship.. cause NONE of us would have done that. Perhaps your father"s" and brother need a review in the Chief pilots office discussing decision making skills and proper command response in a crisis/emergency. Capt authority and responsibility is passenger safety FIRST. How does that fit in with giving up your airplane, pre-9/11 or post 9/11, to someone you dont know.
I have a feeling the quotes posted might be telling a tale.. cause i dont know one pilot that would have given up their ship to someone they dont know. Passenger safety and safety of the people on the ground comes first.. no matter what.
Ask your "fathers" and brother to check out the growing "nutters" at pilotsfor911truth.org. We only been in existence for about 2 months and get emails regularly from all the "nuts" in the aviation industry wishing to join.
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html
Rob
Co-founder
pilotsfor911truth.org
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:44pm PT
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Hahahah, healyje
Are you starting to lose it? Don't let it get to you man .......
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snooky
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:50pm PT
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Question johndoex, is it fact that during the 90's there had been intercepted communications from various terrorists that had similar plans for using aircraft as weapons or at least large scale mayhem and murder? Did the FAA send out any warnings during those years? Thanks for the link, that is one to bookmark!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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HJ,
"And it isn't a matter of finding spectrum - it's a matter of finding stable, guaranteed unused spectrum and establishing timing wirelessly. It didn't happen."
Don't you know that is the FCC's job? They license the frequency use of the entire EM spectrum so there is no interference. All I have to do is turn on my HAM radio and I can dial-up countless unused "stable" frequencies and so can the military. In fact, they have a very large portion of the EM spectrum assigned just to them, and no one else can lawfully use that portion of the spectrum. That is why all electronics must be FCC approved. Can't have technology out there using a portion of the spectrum they are not lawfully assigned to use and causing unwanted interference to other users.
You must think it is a crazy wacky world out there when it comes to EM use and anything goes. Not so. Learn something.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 07:01pm PT
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With McCain, who is a non-starter like Dole, getting your advice on anything just guarantees we'll take the Presidency in two years. Or weren't you awake this past week? The American public will follow through and not turn the White House over to another republican.
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snooky
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 07:04pm PT
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Fatrad, did you borrow that line of bull from Rush or some other regressive speaker to the pea brain sheeple? The ME will be in conflict well after 2010, no amount of input from any policy experts will completely quell the blood boiling multigenerational anger among those folks and you know it. Why talk about these issues? People have brains and like to use them. The unanswered questions and the information held from public view are astonishing regarding 911.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 07:05pm PT
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Well Klimmer, how about we rig you up with some C4, a fractal antenna, a software-tunable radio, and a power switch. We'll drop you off at the WTC site, let you dial in the frequency of your choice, and then give us 2 minutes to leave before you turn on the power and we'll see if you make it 24 hours let alone the days or weeks that would have been required to install and rig such explosives which, again as TGT pointed out, would have been impossible to physically install. Clueless...
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johndoeX
Social climber
NY
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Nov 11, 2006 - 07:16pm PT
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"Question johndoex, is it fact that during the 90's there had been intercepted communications from various terrorists that had similar plans for using aircraft as weapons or at least large scale mayhem and murder? Did the FAA send out any warnings during those years? Thanks for the link, that is one to bookmark!"
Prior to 9/11, I have never seen an internal report indicating the above from the FAA.
After 9/11... well... just check here if you really want to get angry..
http://www.secure-skies.org/
"Quick Stats
# Airline Flts per day: 28,000
Airborne Right Now: 4988
Flights Protected by 2
Armed Pilots:
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johndoeX
Social climber
NY
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Nov 11, 2006 - 07:26pm PT
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My above reply got cut for some reason.
I will not be able to check these forums for questions unfortunately. If anyone has questions.. feel free to email us at pilots@pilotsfor911truth.org or sign up at our forums at http://forums.pilotsfor911truth.org.
I had seen this forum referred to our site and wanted to respond to the above post regarding "nuts" to set the record straight. Ridicule is a form most often used by the ignorant. Sometimes use as a defense mechanism. It's abundant when trying to question your govt.. This... in America.
We welcome questions in our forum, but please use the search function first prior to asking as many topics are covered. We do not feed trolls.. we kick them to the curb. We provide a friendly atmosphere to share research and opinions based on experience. Its also not just for pilots.
Feel free to pick up your own quality DVD of Pandora's Black Box - Analysis of American 77 Flight Data Recorder. It is the first part in a series we are producing covering all flights of Sept 11, 2001.. All proceeds contribute to further research and lower quality versions can be seen for free on the website.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/store.html
Thanks for your support...
Cheers!
Rob
Co-Founder
http://pilotsfor911truth.org
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johndoeX
Social climber
NY
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Nov 11, 2006 - 07:27pm PT
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LEB.. google PNAC
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snooky
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 07:27pm PT
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Thanks johndoex. Scary is correct. Flight Protected by Air Marshals {6%}. Defenseless Flights: 94%. Taxes Spent on Airline Security $12B
$600B or so spent on the fiasco (and counting) that is the Iraq occupation should make safe. Maybe our pal Grover can drown Airline Safety budgets in a bath tub and be a proud fiscal conservative. No wonder those regressive fools had their asses handed to them last Tuesday.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 07:31pm PT
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common healyje
These guys here don't know anything about wireless systems that exist now or how they work for this type of application if something like that would have been implemented.
A wireless trigger system will not be implemented in the way you or these speculators up thread are describing it.
healyje do you even know some of the wireless systems that are available and how it interfaces to the hardware, plus their encryption capabilities?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2006 - 08:00pm PT
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HJ,
Why do I bother?
JohnDoeX,
Thanks for all your hard work with Pilots for 9-11 Truth. I will certainly order a copy of said DVD. Thanks for letting us know. Your website is great, I think I will frequent more often and maybe join? Do you accept Paraglider pilots (lol)?
WBraun,
True. It is simply my speculation on how they set-off the charges. Whether they hard-wired the CD or did it wireless, is anyone's guess and it is speculation. All I am saying is that the technology is very available and done often. It would seem to me wireless would be the way to go. Far-less time to set and easier logistics.
Look at what is possible for large computer controlled and very elaborate fire-work shows. They can set-off and detonate the explosives and rockets in precisely the order they want for all kinds of effects, even syncronized to music. I believe some of these shows are done wire-less???? Don't know.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 11, 2006 - 08:02pm PT
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johndoeX,
Why is a founder of a public advocacy group (supposedly a bona fide group of commercial airline pilots), posting on behalf of the group, posting as "johndoeX?"
Edit: Never mind. Rob already posted a link to his name at http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 08:10pm PT
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johndoeX,
Again, my Father is a retired United captain who started in biplanes and retired from 747's. Moreover, he was test pilot for the Navy and an expert in radio, TV, instruments, and radar and flew the first instrument landings every in the U.S. He also one of the key test pilots and radar specialists working with MIT on Project Cadillac II which produced the first viable AWACS prototypes. My older brother who went to the Air Force Academy is 6'3" and played tightend for them and is intimidated by no man, and my younger brother is as gifted and "natural" a pilot as can be found. When these three pilots cast aspersion on your group and it's "conclusions" - be it by employing ridicule or not - I can assure you they do it from exemplary backgrounds with in-depth expertise and the experience to back it up. If they say it didn't happen that way - it didn't happen that way - that and the facts and physical evidence speak for themselves...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 08:11pm PT
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And why are you posting as graniteclimber instead of your own true name, same thing, eh? Hypocrite are you not graniteclimber?
Klimmer, I appreciate what you are doing with your inquiry about this subject matter and sharing it here. Thanks again.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 08:16pm PT
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Yes Werner, I do. Have I made any, no, but I know neither the physical access nor was a wireles detonation system reliable enough to be capable of what is claimed available. And just physically installing explosives, which was impossible due to the massive effort it would take to cover all the necssary columns, wouldn't work either as there would again have been no synchronization and multiple large explosions over time would have been filmed by no shortage of media crews.
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johndoeX
Social climber
NY
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Nov 11, 2006 - 08:33pm PT
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Healy.. your dad flying as one of the first pilots shooting approaches speak volumes about his position. He is correct there are many errors in pitot-static instruments. But we have come a long way since. Please review the NASA report linked regarding airdata and calibration in which it covers how position errors and hysteresis are eliminated in modern equipment and Air Data Computers (ADC/MADC). Also please review the conflicts that arise should there be any type of instrument error regarding increased vertical speed conflicting with the DoD video.
As far as me being "johndoeX"? Many people know me by that online name.. however if you had clicked on the link provided ..you will see me right at the top..
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html
Please review the others in our organization and their experience/backgrounds. Many top individuals in their respective fields.
The reason i came here is because i saw this forum as being referred under my hit counter to my site (i like to visit the sites who link to my site every once in a while). When i saw we were being called "nuts" and not credible.. i had to sign up to at least set the record straight. Unfortunately when you start questioning the govt face to face.. you get a bunch of cowards on other forums trying to discredit you without facing you. Such as Healy and his "fathers" and brother.
Anyone here care to give me their real name? How about you Healy? Do you have your father and brothers name so i can look them up in the FAA database? Thanks...
All others.. thank you very much for your support! We are trying to get answers from our govt. and we wont stop till we do..
Rob
Co-founder
pilotsfor911truth.org
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 08:38pm PT
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He wasn't one of the "first pilots shooting approaches" he was THE first U.S. pilot to fly them. And he has kept abreast of the trends in electronics, avionics, and instrumentation well past his retirement.
I use my real name, and my Father and brothers are all in the database; as I said, dad is retired United and both Brothers are Fedex.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 11, 2006 - 08:39pm PT
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As far as me being "johndoeX"? Many people know me by that online name.. however if you had clicked on the link provided ..you will see me right at the top..
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html[/i]
You are correct and I already edited my post to so note.
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johndoeX
Social climber
NY
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Nov 11, 2006 - 08:42pm PT
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"He wasn't one of the "first pilots shooting approaches" he was THE first U.S. pilot to fly them. And he has kept abreast of the trends in electronics, avionics, and instrumentation well past his retirement"
Healy.. .is your Dad's name Jimmy Doolittle? Cause that is the first pilot to develop instruments and shoot approaches.
your dad and brother may be in the FAA database... but how do we know that? So far, you havent shown anything of substance.. you are a person posting on some type of (what seems to be) a rock climbing forum. You may take what you read on a forum as gospel.. however, i like to have source material.
Again.. please review the entire site and analysis before passing judgement. That goes for your dad and brother as well. Feel free to have them contact me if they can offer any explanation that hasnt been covered as the NTSB doesnt seem very forthcoming (im assuming you watched the NTSB phone call video..)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2006 - 08:50pm PT
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HJ,
Bingo you answered your own reasoning . . .
" . . . and multiple large explosions over time would have been filmed by no shortage of media crews."
You are right and we have that and much, much more.
We have seismic data, visual data galore, audio data, and many, many eye-witness testimonies from firemen, police officers, rescue workers all whom witnessed the explosives even at times getting thrown by the explosives. Not to mention the explosive residue in the 9-11 dust, and a study done by the USGS that bears out the "finger-print" of explosives. Then there is also the cutter charge residue from the Thermite/Thermate that Dr. Jones has found on the wreckage of the towers. More to come on all of this. People are doing good work and getting the evidence.
We even have the testimony of William Rodriguez, American hero, metaled by Bush himself for his heroism on 9-11 who witnessed along with many other people the explosions that went off in the basements of WTC towers 1 and 2, just prior to the towers being hit by jets. MIHOP all the way.
No matter what, OCTers can't wish all this evidence away, regardless of how hard you wish or try.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 09:07pm PT
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Klimmer,
It's really unbelievable the degree which you and your's fabricate and extrapolate fact and data. Really, and people wonder how the right could have so thoroughly taken in the country. I consider you and yours to be guilty of exactly same kind of malfeasance in manufacturing fact and data as the Bush administration itself. I consider both the 9/11 conspiracists and the Bush administration equally guilty of exactly the same sort of malicious fear mongering - you're both just opposite sides of the same coin.
And as I've related elsewhere, I worked with data from every intelligence agency, civilian and defense when I was in the Navy working directly and daily with the flag intelligence officer responsible for the Pacific Fleet intel and none of them - ZERO, NADA, ZIP - and no branch of the military was or is remotely capable of managing anything like an operation of this scope and scale and coordinate in secrecy across so many federal, state, and local agencies. At every level the very idea is not only implausible, but inconceivable. It did not happen.
Bush and company are guilty of treason as far as I'm concerned and all should be tried - but for incompetence and devotion to an idealogical fantasy, not for have perpetrated one on the American public. Again, the differnce between you folks, the administration, Vatican, the UFO's advocates, lunar landing deniers, HIV deniers, and the Intelligent Designers is just a thread and all are sign of deep cultural disease as far as I'm concerned - and one that deeply undermines our standing in the world in the future.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2006 - 09:22pm PT
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HJ,
I feel for you. I know hearing the truth is difficult. You can't take all the conflicting emotions inside, and it is apparent. Try not to melt down too much in a public forum. It's kind of embarrassing . . .
Try to get some climbing in tomorrow. You need it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 09:30pm PT
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Klimmer, I get in plenty of climbing and have the requisite emotional bandwidth to process anything that comes along in life. What I don't have is an abundance of tolerance for suffering bullshit and those who seek to truck in it under the guise of legitimate science, engineering, or inquiry.
But hey, it's your pitchfork, wield it as you please, but I'm telling you the moon is staying put...
P.S. Outa here for dinner with the beauty...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 11, 2006 - 10:25pm PT
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I looked through the pilotsfor911truth.org web site
The web site is in Glen Stanish's name. He is also listed as a founder. Seems he is the author of the book, "UNCLE SAM'S CHRISTIAN PATRIOTS: A Personal, Political and Religious Discussion of September the 11th, War and Peace, and Freedom and Oppression" From the review, it sounds like it is very rabidly anti-semetic, making allegations that various top government officials were Zionist agents and the like. See the review at: http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?noframes;read=87696
Birds of a feather? It is unfair to judge the whole group by the possible positions of one person but it is not very portentious.
Turning to the pilotsfor911truth.org site itself, there are some technical arguments made regarding Flight 77 (the plane that hit the Pentagon), but nothing conclusive. Boiled down, they postulate that hitting the Pentagon would be too difficult for some terrorist noob terrorist pilot: "My conclusion is, the manever looks possible, for guys like me and you. But for Hani? unlikely." Weak!
There is very little else of substance. Their biggest argument can be paraphrased as follows: "The terrorists took over the planes with knives and boxcutters? I NEVER would have let that happen to my plane! No REAL pilot would let the happen! So we don't believe it!"
On Flight 93 (the plane that crashed into the ground in Pennsylvania) they claim that because the flight data shows the plane descending at a 40 degree pitch down it should have left a "long ditch" instead of a relatively round crater. The implication is that because there was a roundish crater, the flight data is fraudulent and evidence of a cover-up.
Maybe the forensic analysis of ballistics is outside of their expertise. While I'm not an expert myself, I recall reading about research on the angle of impact on crater size by astronomers. It seems that even low angle impacts create a circular crater unless it is VERY low angle. Juan? What do you know of this?
They note that the ground was soft, as if this would have made "long ditch" more likely, although from basic principles of physics, you'd expect that to the extent it would make a difference, the softer the ground, the less likely this would be!
Edit: I googled up an article on impact craters. It states, "Craters most often are circular. More elongate craters can be produced if an impactor strikes the surface at a very low angle — less than 20 degrees." Based on this, it would appear that pilotsfor911truth.org's theory is wrong and a round crater is consistent with the flight data.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/education/explore/shaping_the_planets/impact_cratering.shtml
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 10:55pm PT
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Hey ......
They never went to the moon, no sireee ...... Bawhwahahaha
And it's true, so sorry to blow you away with this terrible truth.
You will never be able to sleep well again knowing that "things are not what they seem".
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 12, 2006 - 06:53am PT
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johndoeX,
Just jumped up to eat crow on the instrument point - I talked with my Father and it was the first five take off and landings with a localizer for the horizontal and a radar for the vertical for pilot controlled approaches (as opposed to its later use for ground controlled radar approaches [GCA] ). These were at night on primitively lit runways in 0-0 conditions.
The point remains that his background in aviation and avionics is such that if you can't convince him you don't have a very compelling story as far as I'm concerned. And he is very anti-Bush and quite open-minded with regards to all such issues.
-------
Werner, I'm sure no one has climbed El Cap in a day either, one look and you know just how impossible that would be... haha!
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 12, 2006 - 12:45pm PT
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"...I had seen this forum referred to our site and wanted to respond to the above post regarding "nuts" to set the record straight. Ridicule is a form most often used by the ignorant. Sometimes use as a defense mechanism. It's abundant when trying to question your govt.. This... in America..."
Similarly, creating a wild conspiracy theory to explain those things one doesn't understand can hardly be considered an indication of genius.
Curt
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 12, 2006 - 01:24pm PT
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I've been following along but not posting much because I decided it was pointless. No one could be so obtuse, obsessive and deluded as these guys without serious implications of dire mental health problems. Then, a thought struck and a flash of insight ensued: it's a troll, the most sophisticated troll in my memory; and we were suckered. Klimmer et al, I've got to hand it to you, brilliant! You had me believing some rogue gene was loose. Congratulations! I feel like I've been suckered into a debate over whether the moon really is made of green cheese or the Earth is flat, but you've been caught.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2006 - 01:51pm PT
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WoodySt,
No troll. Just the truth. I've made my stand. I have seen a lot of the evidence, and there is no turning back. I'm in good company with those in a position to know.
9-11 Truth Seekers (CTers) are in very good company:
Senior Military, Intelligence, and Government Officials Question 9/11 Commission Report
http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport
Try calling them nuts or crazy.
9/11 Statement Signed by 100 Prominent Americans
http://www.wanttoknow.info/911statement
One day you will also know. The truth will always out.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 12, 2006 - 02:33pm PT
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As a paleontologist, I know how hard it can be to get all the facts. Rarely does the whole truth get out, on anything. You never know if there is something you don't know.
I suspect, though, that if we could know the whole deal on 9/11, we would all, on every side of the political spectrum, be blown away.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 12, 2006 - 02:47pm PT
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wodcraft deserves to be visited in the middle of the night by guys in dark suits and white shirts and deadly weapons to determine if he is a threat.
i cant believe people are so stupid as to post things like this.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2006 - 03:15pm PT
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Hawkeye-
What threat do you think I represent?
Let's imagine this scenario on 9-11:
Stock traders on say floor 20. 50 or so floors below the plane impact, on opposite side of building.
Trader #1: "Was that an earthquake, did you feel something?"
Trader #2: "What? I'm hungry"
Trader #3: " Check out the news- a plane hit our building!"
Trader #2: "I think you're hot"
Trader #3: "Creep."
Trader #1: "I hear something behind the wall"
Trader #3: "That sounds like fireproofing falling off. I heard a sound like that last summer before my bar-b-que melted.
Trader #2: " Let's blow this off and go get some pancakes."
A few other thoughts:
A while back someone pointed out that my experience is in smaller, residential buildings. This is true. Larger buildings must be much, much stronger. Wind loads alone for a tall building are huge. I have installed steel beams, and moment frames, and worked for a year on the gut rehab of a 6 story office building that included comprehensive steel frame retrofit. As I recall, the applicator was unable to certify that the fireproofing applied to the steel was asbestos free. I worked intimately around the fireproofing material for months.(electrical work, primarily)
Regarding the gash on the face of building 7, the report goes on to diagram how the collapse did not start in that area.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 12, 2006 - 04:11pm PT
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Klimmer:
"9-11 Truth Seekers (CTers) are in very good company:
Senior Military, Intelligence, and Government Officials Question 9/11 Commission Report
http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport
Try calling them nuts or crazy."
Did you spend any time reading this yourself? It is a real hodge-podge of different statements by different people, including nutty statements and valid criticisms. Most cannot be cited for supporting your nutty CT theories.
9/11 Statement Signed by 100 Prominent Americans
http://www.wanttoknow.info/911statement[/i]
At least these people are all listed as signing onto the same letter. But the list of names is not nearly as illustrious as the one above. And if you look beyond the signatures and read (and think about) the questions they are signing, it isn't very persuasive. Many of the questions appear to be rhetorical, and they bear repeating, because they highlight incompetence by the administration and government. But evidence of your CT theories? No.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2006 - 06:19pm PT
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Chuckcar,
The info about the gash and presumed line of initial collapse is in NIST interim report on WTC7 section L-30. Link in references section of Wikipedia- WTC7
http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf
Regarding steel melting, I agree that steel, uniformly heated, above 1100 degrees, loses much of it's strength, and that could lead to failure. But why has that not happened in any other high-rise fire, even a 14 hour raging inferno? My primitive analogies still apply- your bar-b-que didn't collapse from the steel softening either.
On the other hand, we are talking about melted steel- a pool in the basement still molten days later. What caused that? Friction?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 12, 2006 - 06:28pm PT
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Kryptonite.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 12, 2006 - 06:47pm PT
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For what it's worth, my opinion is that we do need completely independent re-investigations into 9/11, Iraq, allegations of torture and other abuses from high up, etc. We need these to satisfy to whatever extent possibe, the questions that remain after years of adminisration repression, suppression and interference with official investigations. We need an open process that can be trusted.
Many of us don't believe in the thoroughness, impartiality or accuracy of the efforts so far, and for good reason. This government has been the most secretive and deceptive of any in my lifetime. Why would the right-wing oppose spending a few hundred million on reliable investigations, that might go a long way to dousing the kind of conspiracy theories it says are so impossible? Could be money well spent for the health of the country.
All this name-calling on both sides is tiresome. We're all Americans, let's act like them and respect each other's viewpoints. I for one, am certain that I don't know a fraction of the reality or truth of what's gone down.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2006 - 06:55pm PT
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I'm saying that the theory that the towers were brought down by thermite charges, which melts steel, and which could only have been an inside job, fits the facts much better than the theory that some middle eastern guys with razor blades called off the air defense, made three building collapse at free fall speed, and attacked the best defended building on Earth, coordinated from a cave in Afganistan, by a guy with failing kidneys.
Not just the basement. It's not easy for a building to collapse.
If it was that easy, you would hear about it happening more often.
Who had access? Who could hire the experts to set it up? If buildings are that weak, how can the insurance companys insure them?
Did you believe them about the WMD in Iraq?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2006 - 07:13pm PT
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Give it up Chuckcar, your post is just as useless nonsense as you claim woodcrafts is. It's a blog to your link and disinformation can be readily provided there as any other resources available.
As Jello says an independent bona fide non biased investigation by third parties into this whole affair is in order.
Back and forth this bickering about who's so called right and wrong here is going absolutely nowhere .......
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Nov 12, 2006 - 07:30pm PT
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 12, 2006 - 07:42pm PT
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Yeah, cintune, I got splashed by a Gallagher explosion in Vegas, once. Had molten watermellon all over me. That is one funny dude!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2006 - 09:44pm PT
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Jello,
I concur with what you said upstream. Re-investigate 9-11 with an independent commission. This independent commission in my opinion should be international since the event had serious international repercussions. Perhaps it could be done through the UN.
I have no doubt that a true independent investigation into 9-11, and not a white-wash full of excuses that get published on the back of our tax dollars in the form of a large book that is only useful as a door-stop, will lead right to the truth of what the 9-11 truth movement is finding in abundance.
Someone mentioned upstream why isn’t the MSM into talking about this issue? They are, only because the ground-swell is overwhelming and they have been forced into it, and can’t ignore it anymore. More and more people are waking up. We have seen it talked about this past year in the media like never before. However, MSM is usually ridiculing the questioning of the 9-11 OCT.
One of the first things we democrats should do is reinstate the fairness doctrine so we have more to watch than shills and paid mouth pieces for the GOP. MSM is mostly now consolidated and owned by 5 - 6 large very Republican corporations. Think they want to talk about 9-11 truth? Why would they, since they have so much to lose when it becomes completely exposed, hence all the ridicule from them regarding it.
The only true American newscaster who is brave enough to take on this corrupt administration is Keith Olberman. Keith is a true Patriot. I salute him. Without Keith Olberman, AAR, and the “Internets,” where would we be?
There truly are 3 political parties in the US right now: the Democrats, the Republicans, and the Neo-cons. Unfortunately, the Neo-cons hi-jacked the Republican party, and unfortunately the Republican party has allowed it and enabled them to do so.
Democrats and Republicans, we are all Americans. But the Neo-cons are fascists and completely corrupt and they have had their boots to our throats for at least 6 years. Now the table is turned, and we are going to put all of our boots to their throats and finish them off. We can’t suffer this sh*t ever again.
People are waking up big time. It’s the reason the election overwhelmingly went in the favor of truth . . . Here are some articles to this effect:
Third of Americans suspect 9-11 government conspiracy
By THOMAS HARGROVE
Scripps Howard News Service
http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll
First US Newspaper Calls For Complete Independent Council of 9-11
9/11 Blogger
Sunday, November 12, 2006
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2006/121106Council.htm
Here is the orig. article from Ashland Daily Tidings Newspaper:
http://www.dailytidings.com/2006/1111/stories/1111_editorial.php
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 12, 2006 - 09:57pm PT
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Woodcraft: "I'm saying that the theory that the towers were brought down by thermite charges, which melts steel, and which could only have been an inside job, fits the facts much better than the theory that some middle eastern guys with razor blades called off the air defense, made three building collapse at free fall speed, and attacked the best defended building on Earth, coordinated from a cave in Afganistan, by a guy with failing kidneys."
Well thanks for stating a hypothesis as to what you think happened.
Let's consider it.
First, thermite is NOT a high explosive. It is a powder that just burns. It can melt through steel, but its effect is very confined in space, so it is more like a welding torch and needs to pretty much be in direct contact to do so. Also, because it just burns, it is VERY slow compared to an explosive. It takes the thermite time to melt through steel.
If you do not believe the NIST explanation about how the buildings collapsed because you don't think it accounts for the near free fall speed, that is your prerogative, but an explanation depending on thermite throughout the buildings to achieve the "top down" collapse seen in the videos does not work because that would have made the collapses take more time, not less.
It is interesting that you characterize the so-called "OTC" as: "... some middle eastern guys with razor blades called off the air defense, made three building collapse at free fall speed, and attacked the best defended building on Earth, coordinated from a cave in Afghanistan, by a guy with failing kidneys."
You refer to "some middle eastern guys with razor blades" as if that makes them trained monkeys with primitive tools. There is a strong undercurrent of racism and anti-semitism in the 9/11 conspiracy theory community and your argument is no exception.
Osama Bin Laden has a degree in civil engineering and wasn't living in a cave at the time (that came later). Muhammad Atta had a degree in architecture. All the pilots were trained at U.S flight schools.
"..attacked the best defended building on Earth,.."
Look at a map. The Pentagon is right next to an international airport. That makes it very difficult to defend against suicide air attacks. If/when the government gets serious about defending Washington from air attacks, they will need to shut the airport down.
The WTC had no defenses whatsoever.
"coordinated ... by a guy with failing kidneys"
We had a President a while back with a failing brain. We currently have a VP with a failing heart. (Some would say no heart.)
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 12, 2006 - 10:30pm PT
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Go ahead and bash the "mainstream media", but I believe that if every American had read the 9/11 Commission Report and had also been following the media coverage of 9/11 and the events leading up to it prior to the 2004 election, Bush would have not currently be President.
The Bush administration completely dropped the ball on terrorism in general and Osama Bin Laden in particular.
Remember what they focusing on? Skirmishing with China, developing an anti-ballistic missile system and downsizing (that's right, downsizing) the military.
"Third of Americans suspect 9-11 government conspiracy
By THOMAS HARGROVE
Scripps Howard News Service
http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll "
Worth reading, but not surprising. What do you expect in a country where a more then 50% of the population is so ignorant of science as to reject evolution outright? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/22/opinion/polls/main965223.shtml
Oops, this is the wrong thread to get started on that. Still it might explain why so many of the conspiracy theories are so kooky.
The last time we had this level of paranoia and conspiracy theories regarding the government (remember the days of the militias and the fear of "black helicopters"), it led to the Oklahoma City bombing. At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if the next significant terrorist attack in the U.S. is perpetrated by a homegrown red-blooded wanna-be "patriot."
Consider the title of this thread for a second. It is rather chilling. I want Bush and Cheney OUT of the White House as much as the next guy, but let's not get ridiculous.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2006 - 10:46pm PT
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I think you are a conspiracy ......
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 13, 2006 - 12:28am PT
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...Give it up Chuckcar, your post is just as useless nonsense as you claim woodcrafts is. It's a blog to your link and disinformation can be readily provided there as any other resources available.
As Jello says an independent bona fide non biased investigation by third parties into this whole affair is in order...
Fortunately, we already have that. For those who are interested in the engineering sciences and facts, the NIST report will suffice. For those who prefer "National Enquirer" type reporting, of course, facts are of little consequence.
Curt
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 13, 2006 - 03:19pm PT
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Question:
Has anyone else ever read a 217 post thread and afterwards, felt like they might have lost an IQ point or two from the experience?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2006 - 03:31pm PT
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NIST - the National Institute of Standards and Technology is a federal technology agency.
Another govt. agency, Curt, that can be manipulated for the so called cause.
Now my IQ has risen one more notch up, Dirtbag ......
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 13, 2006 - 05:27pm PT
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History usually judges a president on results, period. What a perwson believes, his intentions are and so forth is of no moment in the long run since what matters is the effect a president had on the country and the world. In Bush's case we are looking at four main events: 9-11, Katrina, Iraq, and the state of the economy.
9-11 can be looked on as a breakdown in the intelligence community, but youy can't really lay that on George. He seemed to handle the basic event in a satisfactory way. However he over reacted and that led to the Iraq debacle, with all the good old boys (Halifurton) profiting handsomely while the troups die like dogs in a conflict that was based on WMDs that were not there and a presidential agenda that was folly, led by a narcissist (Rumsfeld) that didn't listen to military people in the know. This is a national disaster that is only now being fully understood--the results say so clearly.
Katrina was another debacle led by Bush's incompetant cronies. We looked like a 3rd world nation. A disgrace.
Our economy is probably going to suffer dreadfully for the billions spent on Iraq.
Anyone who is pleased with these kinds of results sets the bar very low for a President. I'm ashamed of what has gone down because I expect far better results and believe they are possible.
JL
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 13, 2006 - 06:13pm PT
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Largo, I agree with most of what you said but must modify a bit: the mayor of New Orleans and the Gov. of Louisiana were the first responders and made thing ten times worse. The Fed screwed up also. But, the biggest damage was done at the state and local level.
I don't believe the economy will take a big hit due to Iraq. It will suffer some but not a great deal. We'll just have to wait and see.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2006 - 03:32am PT
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Continued speculation on how they brought down the WTC towers with controlled demolition (CD) . . .
My hypothesis is that they did it remotely, using a state of the art wireless RF computer controlled firing system, and had many floors wired for detonation above the jet impact zone and below the impact zone, just to make sure. Wires would have been a logistical nightmare. They simply chose what floor to initiate the sequence for a top-down CD to give the illusion of a tower failure due to jet impact and fire. Along with explosive thermate (not thermite) cutting charges to cut key beams before the towers came down and during the collapse sequence. Yes many exposions occured prior to the buildings collapsing, several large ones even before the towers were hit by jets. Yes, it is true that this kind of collasping has never ever happened before in the history of towering high-rise buildings due to fire or jet airplane impacts, yet it did perfectly 3 times in a row on 9-11-01. Wow, imagine the odds of that!!??
Someone upstream, (I won't say who) said basically it isn't possible to do this wireless since the EM spectrum is crowded, confused and would be insanely dangerous. Google: Remote Controlled Wireless Pyrotechnics and Firework Shows, and you get plenty of hits to show people are doing just that . . .
Very interesting . . . here is just one:
http://www.pyromate.com/wireless-firing-system.htm
And another . . .
http://www.skylighter.com/mall/pop_GN6020.html
Think the government has this capability and an even more elaborate model? They probably have the "M1 GI False-Flag GOV ver 9.11.01" on steroids (lol). It's a no-brainer. The control center for this CD operation was the floor in WTC 7 with the blast resistant windows that had been recently installed. And how close is WTC Tower 7 to WTC Towers 1 and 2? Close enough that RF control is not a problem.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 14, 2006 - 06:22am PT
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Man, it's an echo in here, and a hollow one at that. Again, undetected physical access for installing that amount of explosives on the columns was flat out impossible without first assasinating every janitor, office manager, and network administrator in every building. Again, no one would dream of using a wireless detonator system in lower Manhattan and even if attempted the firing sequences would be badly off and the pattern easily discernable which, regardless of how much you babble on about it, was not identified or detected by anyone credible. It's ludicrous in every aspect.
But, just for entertainment's sake, and say 77 didn't hit the Pentagon, where is the plane? And where are the passengers? Where did they go? It did take off from Dulles - let's not go down the "there was no flight" road. What happened to the plane and passengers? Do you understand the degree of federal and state agency coordination that would be required for a commercial flight of U.S. citizens to simply disappear?
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Blight
Social climber
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Nov 14, 2006 - 07:07am PT
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Again, undetected physical access for installing that amount of explosives on the columns was flat out impossible without first assasinating every janitor, office manager, and network administrator in every building.
Every intelligence service in the world employs operatives whose specific job is to enter premises and install surveillance equipment, remove property or access computer networks. Often these premises are in foreign countries and are very secure and well guarded.
Do you honestly think that such specialists would experience any real difficulty in gaining access to a lightly guarded building at home with government assistance?
Again, no one would dream of using a wireless detonator system in lower Manhattan and even if attempted the firing sequences would be badly off and the pattern easily discernable which, regardless of how much you babble on about it, was not identified or detected by anyone credible.
Are you saying that comemrcially available wireless systems like HiEx's Teleblaster and the CAMESE BlastPED don't work? Perhaps you should get in touch with those companies and all their professional clients who have been using the systems successfully for years - even underground - and tell them that they're all wrong.
I'm sure that with your impeccable credentials in explosives handling and demolition they'll immediately agree that they, like Klimmer, are insane fantasists who hate america, right?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2006 - 01:20pm PT
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Try looking into it just a little.
I can't hold your hand and make you read articles and watch videos/DVDs. Yet, I have provided many links already that answer all of these questions and more. Look-up stream in this thread and you will find the links.
Watch "9-11 Mysteries," perhaps the best out there on the CD of the 3 WTC towers 1, 2 and 7.
In a nut shell:
9-11 was the big wedding for the BCF and his Neo-con Rethug Administration. They have all been involved together for many years, and are infamous for many events/crimes just to name one --- Iran/Contra/CIA/Drugs for Guns. Look into PNAC, they spell out what their intentions are.
On 9-11, with this massive false-flag operation, the Neo-cons and Larry Silverstein got just what they wanted: the Neo-cons got their "New Pearl Harbor" to deceive the masses into an illegal pre-emtive war for war profiteering and oil, hysteria and caos in the ME (watch the movie Syriana) also leads to profits. Larry Silverstein the current owner of the WTC towers who insured the towers against terrorist acts for billions of dollars, prior to 9-11, obviously received the billions in insurance after the fact, and at the same time got out of major lemons on his hands. The tenancy of the towers were in decline, they needed to be retro-fitted for the latest technology, and it was going to take perhaps billions to properly remove the (Hazmat) asbestos from all the towers that needed to be removed under environmental regs and law. All of this and more were taken care in one full swoop. And we now have the great new enemy and "Boogy-man" Al CIA-duh and OBL, who was our former CIA operative and many suspect he still is. Ask who benefits, and then you have your answer.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 14, 2006 - 01:25pm PT
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Klimmer,
BST, PNAC, WTF?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 14, 2006 - 02:26pm PT
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It's all detailed in a Youtube video. It must be true! :-)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2006 - 02:57pm PT
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I feel as though I'm talking to very thick dense walls at times.
Even with HS students in my physics class I don't have to hold their hands as much as I do here.
People with critical thinking skills get it. But it won't be easy. There is work to do on your part and you have to ask many, many questions. You have to pursue it. You have to look at all sides of the coin, and consider all possible scenerios and see where the evidence points to. If you don't, then you are biased, ignorant, and lazy.
You guys obviously don't look into anything except spout ridicule, resort to insults, and name call.
You have absolutely no substance. Show me facts. Prove me wrong.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 14, 2006 - 04:06pm PT
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"You have absolutely no substance. Show me facts. Prove me wrong."
No, prove us wrong. You're the one swimming against the tide here. You're the one making extraordinary claims. As the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 14, 2006 - 04:12pm PT
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 14, 2006 - 04:14pm PT
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Yeah. There are already several long threads on this topic so the horse has been dead long before this thread was started.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 14, 2006 - 06:00pm PT
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I think we should bring this session to an end. Before you all go back to your rooms, let's give Klimmer and Blight a hug. And Klimmer and Blight, please stay behind; I'd like to talk to you about a modification in your meds.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 14, 2006 - 06:19pm PT
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Klimmer:
"My hypothesis is .... Along with explosive thermate (not thermite) cutting charges to cut key beams ..."
Same problem as before. Thermate-TH3 does not explode, it burns.
"Yes, it is true that this kind of collasping has never ever happened before in the history of towering high-rise buildings due to fire or jet airplane impacts..."
How many other jet airliner impacts have there been into towering high-rise buildings? In fact, many large fires have there been ever in this kind of building? And how many of those shared the WTC's design?
Someone else posted the "experiment" using a chain link fence and propane torches to support the myth steel's durability in a fire. If you want to see what a fire can do to steel, look at the picture below.
The entire upper part of the building collapsed with the exception of the concrete core. Without the concrete core, it is believed that the building could have collapsed to the ground.
There is a report, including a lot more pictures at http://ncdr.nat.gov.tw/iwerr/doc/pdf/S12%20PDF/s12-1.pdf A much larger portion of the building collapsed then is evident in the picture.
Edit: Picture removed because it was messing up the thread format. To see it click here:
http://www.tribulaciones.org/life/madrid-windsor2.jpg
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2006 - 02:50am PT
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Graniteclimber-
Good points earlier. The burned building is a good example of what you expect to see- a mess, possibly partial collapse. In the report they say it took 10- 12 months to demolish the building after the fire.
From the report you linked:
[ 5. Conclusion
The cause of collapse can be considered that it had no sprinkler system, adequate fire
protection for the steel columns and was lack of performance of fire compartment of the wall. ]
(The building was being renovated for fire protection- no covering of the steel etc..)
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 16, 2006 - 02:54am PT
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double post.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 16, 2006 - 02:55am PT
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Blight
Social climber
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Nov 16, 2006 - 06:20am PT
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No, prove us wrong. You're the one swimming against the tide here. You're the one making extraordinary claims. As the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Klimmer's posted evidence. Large amounts of it, actually.
Normally, the next step would be for you to analyse and dispute that evidence. If you can't, then you should be asking yourself why you don't accept it.
Of course, the evidence may suggest that you are wrong. If that's the case, an open minded person will change their position, and adopt the one the evidence supports. A closed-minded person cannot accept that they are wrong and either pretends the evidence doesn't exist, or resorts to personal attacks.
So where are you at in this process?
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 16, 2006 - 08:55am PT
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Where am I? The evidence posted in support is far from persuasive, as has been stated clearly by several posters. It is implausible and relies on way too-many unsubstantiated what-ifs. It's crap. If considering the "evidence" and rejecting it entirely makes me a sheepish close-minded fool, then so be it: hearing that label coming from people buying into some elaborate, ridiculous idea doesn't bother me a bit. Some of the ideas suggested as being perpetrated by the government in connection with this are, to put it charitably, loony.
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Blight
Social climber
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Nov 16, 2006 - 09:08am PT
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considering the "evidence" and rejecting it entirely makes me a sheepish close-minded fool, then so be it
No, that would make you someone who had come to their own decision after weiging the evidence.
It's the name-calling and abuse in place of thinking and deciding that makes you a sheepish close-minded fool.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Nov 16, 2006 - 09:28am PT
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No irony intended there, obviously.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 16, 2006 - 09:34am PT
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"It's the name-calling and abuse in place of thinking and deciding that makes you a sheepish close-minded fool."
Abuse? Ha. That's funny.
Cintune: sure, no irony there, huh? I guess we are just to sheepish to understand the REAL TRUTH about what happened. LOL.
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Blight
Social climber
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Nov 16, 2006 - 10:01am PT
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Heh!
No, no irony intended.
The fact remains though that calling names and dimissing ideas as "ridiculous" isn't thinking or analysis, in fact it's just a way of avoiding it.
I haven't decided yet myself. Neither account seems very robust in view of the criticisms levelled at them. Until one set of arguments fails, I'll hold off on making a decision. That's called "thinking" by the way.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 16, 2006 - 10:33am PT
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No, there is nothing wrong with calling an idea ridiculous if it is, in fact, ridiculous. I don't see any reason to sugar coat things. It is thinking things through and coming to the conclusion that something is beyond what is possible or logical.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2006 - 11:02am PT
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When I first heard about questioning 9-11, at the time I had no reason to suspect the OCT wasn't true. I heard about it from a another teacher over lunch a few years ago, and they said some students in their class said "No 757 flew into the Pentagon." And I had the immediate knee-jerk reaction and said "Bullsh#t." And then said something about students not having well developed critical thinking skills . . .
Then later, thinking to myself "Ok, I'm going to check-out what the heck they are talking about, and let the evidence and facts speak for themselves." Wow, did I eat crow. Students are smarter than we think, and surprise us all the time.
There is overwhelming evidence that completely invalidates the OCT. In science then, you must reject that hypothesis/theory and come up with a new one that is supported by the facts, that is not invalidated. The 9-11 truth movement is doing just that. Do we have everything figured-out precisely and do we know the key players who were immediately involved? No not exactly. It's like looking through a fogged, cloudy pane of glass. We have a very good outline, but we can't make out the exact image.
You will never come to this frame of mind unless you can come to the point of saying, no matter what I want to know the truth. I want to see all the evidence, and using the scientific method through thought experiments allow the falsified hypotheses to fall away and hang onto the supported hypotheses.
There are some very erronious hypotheses out-there that are floating around in the 9-11 truth movement, but many are very valid, supported, and not "invalidated." You have to know how to work your way through those land-mines and obvious attempts to paint the movement as nuts. A critical thinking mind can do so.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 16, 2006 - 12:08pm PT
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There are certainly parts of 9-11 conspiracy theory that are unlikely or even "out-there."
and there are many shades of government involvement in 9-11 that could be possible (but unknown because we don't have the facts)
For example, only top government people might have discovered that an attack was likely and knew some names of who might be involved (we already know they suspected Atta) but let it slide because they figured some kind of attack on American soil would let them have their war. Thus, it wouldn't involved hundreds of people, just a handful.
Even the many people involved in staging the war games the reduced the 9-11 response capability didn't need to know that such games might facilitate the attacks being pulled off. Just one guy needed to know that (if it was a factor, why didn't the 9-11 commission discuss this more?)
The fact that reasonable and unreasonable people still argue about this speaks to the fact that we need more disclosure and more info. Why let a Kennedy-assination-like atmosphere prevade for the next 100 years?
Funny, just today on CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/16/germany.911/index.html
"In his first trial in 2003, el-Motassadeq was convicted of belonging the a terrorist group and accessory to murder. He was subsequently sentenced to 15 years in prison.
However, a year later the federal court overturned the verdict due to lack of evidence from U.S. authorities who would not provide information linking el-Motassadeq with 9/11 suspects for national security reasons. He was freed a month later.
The case was sent back to a Hamburg court. During that trial the statements were released and helped link him to a terrorist organized, which led to his conviction.
He was accused of providing logistical help to the Hamburg al Qaeda cell that included 9/11 hijackers Mohamed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi and Ziad Jarrah. The judge painstakingly recounted the relationship of el-Motassadeq with the Hamburg cell."
So the US is letting actual 9-11 conspirators go because they don't want to provide evidence? What are they saving that evidence for? Doesn't national security mean putting those guys away?
Peace
Karl
Edit: Opps, one point I wanted to make was that one of the smartest ways to cover-up any wrongdoing is to put easily discredited disinformation out there, which, once put-down, would discredit other attempts to get at the truth.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 16, 2006 - 02:00pm PT
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Chuckcar: "Now why would the neocons need to involve Silverstein in order to fly jets into his buildings?"
According to the "CTers" it wasn't just Silverstein but rather Silverstein AND the entire New York Fire Department, AND Silverstein told everyone about it on national television.
Karl: "So the US is letting actual 9-11 conspirators go because they don't want to provide evidence?"
The U.S did not let Mottassadeq go, the German courts did (but not for long.) Also the dispute was not over evidence to prove him guilty (as stated in the cnn) but over Mottassadeq's access to evidence that he claimed was exculpatory. See http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,448921,00.html
Mottassadeq wanted access to other U.S. government investigations, claiming there was exculpatory evidence. Obviously, there are very good reasons why the U.S. governemnt would not want to turn over this information to a suspected terrorist. However they did not want Mottassadeq to get away so they turned over enough to satisfy the court and Mottassadeq is back in the news because he was convicted.
Karl: "Edit: Opps, one point I wanted to make was that one of the smartest ways to cover-up any wrongdoing is to put easily discredited disinformation out there, which, once put-down, would discredit other attempts to get at the truth."
Karl, that is a very interesting observation and worthy of inclusion as a plot twist in a John Le Carre novel. I don't believe for a second that there was a government conspiracy to stage the 9/11 attacks, but if there was, having a lot of loony theories and allegations out there would go to there benefit and if so, many of the "CTers" would be unwittingly aiding in the cover-up. Wouldn't that be ironic!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2006 - 02:24pm PT
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Here is some motive, means, and opportunity evidence. So how do you debunk this OCTers?
There are people who know the truth of 9-11 on the inside, and when truly independent re-investigations of 9-11 are opened again, and when it is safe to do so people will come forward and talk. Some people are extraordinarily very brave and patriotic and are doing so at this time. They obviously risk their lives, jobs, and family in doing so.
People erroneously say our government couldn’t keep anything like this secret for so long with so many people involved. Someone would talk. How many thousands of people kept their mouth shut about the Manhattan Project for many, many years? It has only been 5 years since the big wedding. And it doesn’t have to take so many people on the true inside and directly involved to make 9-11 happen. Some have written speculative essays and suggest about 50 people in the know could pull-off 9-11, and everyone else was just doing their job and used as unknowing pawns and unknowingly aided in the success of the big event. All those directly involved, know they risk their lives or at least life-time prison sentences. But there are those who witnessed much, who were unknowingly used and were not in on 9-11. They will come forward to say what they know when it is safe to do so in a court of law and under real meaningful re-investigations.
Here are some articles and links concerning a great American and a very brave patriot, Sgt. Lauro “LJ” Chavez. Here is his story working at CENTCOM on 9-11-01. CENTCOM gets the stand-down orders from NORAD, and Sgt. “LJ” sees a top-secret document describing the events to occur the very day of 9-11-01:
Original breaking story at v911t:
http://www.v911t.org/SergeantLauroChavez.php
The 1st article about LJ at Prison Planet:
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/250906blowswhistle.htm
Sgt LJ's DD Form 214:
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/LChavez_214.pdf
The interview at Prison Planet with Sgt. Chavez:
http://prisonplanet.tv/audio/260906chavez.mp3
The follow-up article after the interview at Prison Planet:
http://infowars.net/articles/September2006/260906Chavez.htm
LJ clarifies questions for skeptics:
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/September2006/260906_b_Clarifies.htm
I have no reason to doubt him. What would he gain but ridicule and scorn from OCTists and the world? Who would want to put themselves through that for a lie? Verifying where he served and with whom is easily done so through service records. His DD 214 form looks legit to me. My DD 214 form was hand typed in front of me when I ETSed from the US Army. Mine looks very similiar and uses the same kind of government speak. He is a very brave American Patriot. I salute him.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 16, 2006 - 03:17pm PT
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I don't know what happened but I do thinks it's unfair to call the folks asking questions or doing their own investigating "Looney"
There are British Government documents that show that Bush proposed flying a US spy plane dressed up in UN colors ove Iraq with the hope that it would be shot down, providing a pretext for war.
For those who really think a government conspiracy is so far fetched. Look at the official documents behind Operation Northwoods.
Reposted from an old 9-11 thread at
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=135824&msg=136309#msg136309
+++++++++
I just want to put this in the face of those who say no conspiracy is possible. Answer my damn question at the End
THE US GOVERNMENT HAS ACTUALLY PLANNED TERRORIST ATTACKS AGAINST THE US. It wasn't during a GOP administration either. Sh#t happens. check out
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html
"Code named Operation Northwoods, the plan, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."
Let say that Kennedy didn't 86 the plan which was signed off on by the whole Joint Chiefs, and a round of violent terrorist attacks were pulled off by the Kennedy Government on Americans.
This very nearly happened . Ask yourself this question
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
We believe what we want to believe. If something is too far out of our worldview and experience, our mind glances right over it.
If you can at least answer my question
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
You will at least prove your mind can go there
peace
karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 16, 2006 - 03:31pm PT
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Blight:
"Klimmer's posted evidence. Large amounts of it, actually.
Normally, the next step would be for you to analyse and dispute that evidence. If you can't, then you should be asking yourself why you don't accept it.
Of course, the evidence may suggest that you are wrong. If that's the case, an open minded person will change their position, and adopt the one the evidence supports. A closed-minded person cannot accept that they are wrong and either pretends the evidence doesn't exist, or resorts to personal attacks.
So where are you at in this process?"
Klimmer posted items which he believed supported his position. "Evidence" is too strong a word. Rather there is much speculation and many unsupported allegations.
It is almost impossible to prove things in the negative most of the time, meaning it really is not feasible to prove that the 9/11 attacks were NOT a "inside job" whatever that means.
I believe that many people gravitate to one side or another on this issue based largely on their world view. Look at the first video that Klimmer posted. It alleges that "international bankers" took over the entire U.S. government in 1913 and that the entire U.S. government is essentially a conspiracy now working against the people. "They" also control the press. If you believe this, it easily follows how "they" could stage the 9/11 attacks.
On the other hand, some of us work in the media or government or have a lot of connections with people who do. The CT'ers theories involve many thousands of people across many federal, state and local agencies. For those of us with some familiarity of how government works on a nuts and bolts level, it is just is not credible.
I am reading Woodward's book State of Denial right now. He notes that the CIA had what appeared to be a massive amount of evidence of WMD in Iraq, all indexed in a big database. Because of the amount of data, it looked superficially persuasive. But if you started scrutinizing individual items, they were flimsy. It was like a multi-point anchor that initially LOOKS bomber because of the redundancy, but if you look at the individual pieces you see that they are garbage.
Having looked through a lot of CT'ers evidence, it is my opinion that they are engaging in the same fallacy. If you start looking at the nitty-gritty, it doesn't hold up. For example, see my comments on the "thermite/thermate" theory above.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2006 - 03:36pm PT
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Karl Baba,
Yep. Good call. These are all known as "false-flag" operations. Anyone who doesn't know what this is all about, and you don't know how much our government has been involved in false-flag ops then you need to watch the Alex Jones DVD "TerrorStorm."
I posted the link to view it free up-stream somewhere when I first jumped into this particular Supertaco thread.
We've done it and we do it. Many countries have done it and do it as well. How to get someone to play war when they don't want to get involved?
9-11 was the grand-daddy of all false-flag ops.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 16, 2006 - 03:49pm PT
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I really would like folks to try to answer my question.
I don't know what happened on 9-11 but I think it's important for each of us to ask ourselves what our means of knowledge are and what and how we believe.
See If you can at least answer my question from my last post above.
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
You will at least prove your mind can go there
Really
Karl
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Nov 16, 2006 - 05:20pm PT
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Right after the 1993 bombing of the WTC, causing severe structural damage, there was a fear that the buildings could collapse before they could be shored up and repaired. If they fell they would have fallen like redwood trees, taking out a whole block of buildings.
Possible scenario: To protect against this disastrous sort of failure the buildings were prepared for a controlled demolition in case they started their collapse before they could be shored up. So in 1993, for legitimate reasons the demolition explosives were set. And since there just might be another attack on the towers they left them in place. All set for Bush and Cheney.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2006 - 05:51pm PT
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Graniteclimber,
You are wrong.
Thermite is an incendiary. Thermite + sulfur = Thermate, and because of the addition of Sulfur, burns so fast it is explosive in its reaction (sometimes called Superthermate). Dr. Jones gave a lecture on this in Hollywood, CA over the summer at the 9-11 Convention and I was there in attendance. He has also posted many articles on the topic explaining the difference between Thermite and Thermate.
No one is saying that thermite/thermate was used alone. It wasn't. It is used as a cutting charge, then more conventional explosives bring the building down. Just as they do in regular CD, you have to prep the building first. Cut many main support beams at an angle, so that when the charges go off the building falls into itself. If you haven't watched "9-11 Mysteries" then you should because they go into all of this. Themite/thermate was used to cut beams at critical points and done so at an angle to make the building mostly fall into itself when the conventional explosives went off. But think about it. No one could go in and start cutting beams prior to 9-11 as you would under normal CD conditions. That is why thermite/thermate cutting charges had to be inployed prior to the buildings coming down. And there is plenty of evidence that thermite/thermate was cutting beams before the buildings came down.
There is dramatic footage of a cascade of molten steel free-falling out of the towers before the towers came down, with all the signature signs of thermite/thermate in plain view. When I get the chance I will find the link to that footage, I will post it here.
Then our very own government has developed very explosive nanothermite that have been used for military applications. There was a link to an article that was in MSM that talked about the actual developement of nanothermite for this very use by the military posted at ( http://www.st911.org ) but I can’t find it at the moment.
But here is this article that eludes to the explosive nature of nanothermite and apparently it can be used as a propellant also (think rocket fuel). By the way, rocket fuel is very explosive!:
http://ci.confex.com/ci/2005/techprogram/P1663.HTM
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 16, 2006 - 06:11pm PT
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Thanks Chuckcar
I've asked that question quite a few times and almost nobody can bring themselves to answer it.
Must be cause you're in Berkeley!
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 16, 2006 - 07:10pm PT
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Again, you just aren't getting it. Getting at the columns would have required demo'ing out significant wall sections to place explosives and detonators. Those wall sections would then have had to have been repaired and painted. And these would have been around windows which means the detailing / trim would likely have been significant. You're talking about lots of columns on at least a few floors (if not most of the building as you couldn't anticipate the exact strike zone even with good pilots). I'm going take a wild guess that you have never done any of this type of work as you don't tear up walls, do significant work, and then repair them without people - lots of people - asking lots of questions. It would have been impossible.
And I didn't say there aren't wireless detonation systems. I said there were no such systems that would provide the safety and timing necessary to use them in lower Manhattan. These are mining and fireworks systems that would be highly inappropriate to such a task.
And again, where did the passengers of AAL77 go?
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Nov 17, 2006 - 01:02am PT
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The passengers went exactly where they planned for them to go. Read this link, it is a government memo, don't know which government, but it outlines to those with no imagination how a group could go about making passengers disappear. Remember, the airlines had 20% occupancy on that day due to a computer glitch the 9/11 report says.
This is George Washington University's NSArchives.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf
page 13.
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Nov 17, 2006 - 01:13am PT
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Oh, and those of you who think you could't plant explosives?
Who ran security for the WTCs and the Airport?
How many floors/offices were vacant?
Answer this and you won't find it so hard to belive. But find it out for yourself so you can't call me an ass.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 17, 2006 - 02:15am PT
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I watched Steven Jones video and looked at some of the other videos.
Ever play with plastic at the end of stick around the campfire? That "burning thermite" and "molten steel" looks pretty similar to dripping, burning plastic to me.
Here is what Glacier Point looked like after being attacked with thermite (or thermate or super thermate or nano thermate or whatever) in the 1960s. There is proof this was an "inside job" sanctioned by the U.S.government. Immediately prior to flow, Mr.Silverstein was overheard radioing to a National Park employee to "pull it." Note that the molten flow is clearly YELLOW. This PROVES that it is molten steel, not aluminum. :-)
(This is actually the fire fall from Glacier Point)
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 17, 2006 - 02:24am PT
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Karl,
To answer your question, it is not unthinkable.
Your comments (and the old post you link to) are thoughtful and intelligent, in sharp contrast to most of what is out there on the "9/11 Truth" sites.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2006 - 05:42pm PT
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Chuckcar and Graniteclimber,
You see science is based on evidence, experiments, and observations that are repeatable. The results of the experiment either validate or invalidate the hypothesis. And accordingly, hypotheses are adjusted or abandoned altogether, and a new one is derived.
NIST says it was molten aluminum with organic debri, and that is why it glows orange. So let's do an experiment. Oh, wait Dr. Jones has already done that. But hey, the power of real science is that it is repeatable and can be validated time and time again by any of us. This one happens to be a very easy experiment to repeat. And when you do, you’ll see molten Aluminum with as much organic debri in it as you want to mix in is always silver, indoors, or outdoors in broad daylight.
(I wouldn't try this off of Glacier Point however. The “Fire-fall” is now illegal.)
Experiments to test NIST "orange glow" hypothesis...
by Steven E. Jones, August 31, 2006:
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Experiments-to-test-NIST-orange-glow-hypothesis.html
By the way, you can't be serious when you compare a still photo image that has streaking fire-fall because the shutter was left open for a period of time to properly expose the image for dramatic effect, and then try to compare that to motion video? The two are very different. And what is falling is also very different.
All of the tell-tale signs of Thermite/Thermate are there in the video of the dripping molten steel coming out of the corner of the South WTC Tower along with the characteristic smoke of a thermite reaction which is Aluminum Oxide trailing up into the air.
Why Indeed Did the World Trade Center Buildings Completely Collapse?
(With plenty of rebuttals to the NIST report)
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/WhyIndeedDidtheWorldTradeCenterBuildingsCompletelyCollapse.pdf
It's called science. Learn about it sometime. Unfortunately NIST is a very biased government agency in this regard concerning 9-11. Think about it. The government is going to investigate itself completely, fairly, and without bias.
ROLFLMAO
That is why we need truly independant investigations into 9-11. The Bush Administration didn't even want to investigate in the first place, it was the surviving family members that forced the government's hand. And then Bush et al., hand selected the 9-11 Commission, many of whom had serious conflicts of interests. Now it has come out even by 9-11 Commission members that the military was less than honest in their testimonies before the Commission. Surprise, surprise (as Gomer Pyle would say).
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2006 - 05:58pm PT
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The innanity of it all is breathtaking. And please, don't slander science in such a way. Jones and company are starting with a "fact" and working backwards using what may pass for "scientific" experiments. And in fact, an individual tests may be well designed and executed - it's the context of the "investigation" that ranks this as pseudo-scientific theatre on par with UFO "research".
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2006 - 06:12pm PT
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HJ,
Huh? Are you drunk? What in the h*ll are you trying to say? You are making no sense to me.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2006 - 08:20pm PT
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Well, if you can't understand clear language explaining that conspiracy "theorists" working backwards from their conviction the government executed this event isn't science then it simply verifies the fact that is exactly what is happening. None of it is science regardless of how well conceived and executed any given test is.
Again, no one planted explosives in the buildings because they couldn't install that quantity of explosives on that number of columns without literally dozens of people building personnel and network administrators being on them in a flash, let alone tear the whole floors up to do it. It ridiculous in every measure.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2006 - 08:37pm PT
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And you've never been wrong?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2006 - 08:42pm PT
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Oh, I've been wrong about a lot of things, but I've also done enough carpentry, steel framing, sheetrocking, trimwork, and painting to know no one tore the interior of the building up to install explosives without lots of folks immediately asking what the hell was going on.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2006 - 08:48pm PT
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healyje
hahaha .... you are a riot.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2006 - 09:36pm PT
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Chuckcar
If you for once believe that my previous post was name calling then you are seriously wrong.
I have the greatest respect for Joesph Healy. I just thought his reply was funny.
Now as for you Chuckcar ...... oh never mind, your not worth it.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 18, 2006 - 12:15am PT
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To me that video proves that a helicopter hovering in the vicinity of the building caused it to fall down. I mean, you know--that's what is plainly shown.
Curt
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2006 - 10:06am PT
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Graniteclimber, HJ, and Chuckcar,
As I said before . . .
“You will never come to this frame of mind unless you can come to the point of saying, no matter what I want to know the truth. I want to see all the evidence, and using the scientific method through thought experiments allow the falsified hypotheses to fall away and hang onto the supported hypotheses.
There are some very erroneous hypotheses out-there that are floating around in the 9-11 truth movement, but many are very valid, supported, and not "invalidated." You have to know how to work your way through those land-mines and obvious attempts to paint the movement as nuts. A critical thinking mind can do so.”
Yes, there are some truly nutty hypotheses out there concerning what happened on 9-11. And you are bringing up dirty laundry within the 9-11 Truth Movement. I don’t really see it as such though. Throughout history there has always been disagreement within the scientific community. For good reason, that is the way it is supposed to work. Truth will out and move forward through the debate and the scientific method. What is bad is when it gets personal and nasty.
Dr. Jones and Dr. Woodward agree that 9-11 was an inside job, but on the specifics of how it was done they are very much in dispute. I’m on the side of reason, evidence, and the outcomes of experiments, the scientific method --- I’m on Dr. Jones side at this time. And he has stayed a gentleman throughout. Yes, he happens to be shy and doesn’t really like people making a big fuss over him. I met him in Hollywood, at the convention this past summer. Very nice man and very humble. He is thrilled by doing science research. Most people would consider that pretty geeky. His credentials are impeccable. Please don’t try to paint him as some wacko who is Morman. Hey, Aristotle, Galileo, and Newton were also very devout but did very good science. Well, at least Aristotle got us thinking that way and asking questions about nature even though he didn’t really do science. He is also incredibly brave for speaking out and suffering the ignorant ridicule and letting science prove his points with fact, evidence, and reproduceable experiments.
Dr. Woodward has some interesting ideas, and when she first started doing studies, some of her results I agree with. But I don’t agree with no planes hit the WTC towers. She is also looking into new EM weapons that may have been used on 9-11 that instantly vaporized WTC steel as the buildings collapsed??? Ok, but I don’t agree. I don’t agree with her findings regarding the witnessed color of molten Aluminum heated up to extreme temperatures and always looking yellow or orange. How about when poured through the atmosphere a short distance in direct sunlight? She didn’t carry the experiments far enough. Yes, when heated way beyond it’s melting point (approx. 660 C) Aluminum can and does glow orange and even yellow, however something else happens when you pour it through the atmosphere a short distance and in direct sunlight. See you have to recreate the conditions of the original observations as close as you possibly can. That is what we do in real science. Their experiment heating Aluminum on Tungsten did not. Even Dr. Jones admits that Aluminum looks orange-yellow but then continues the experiment . . .
Experiments with Molten Aluminum
by Steven E. Jones, with Wesley Lifferth, Jared Dodson, Jacob Stevenson and Shannon Walch (word.doc)
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ExptAlMelt.doc
Reply to Reynolds and Wood – Part I (word.doc) (pdf)
Steven E. Jones
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/JonesReplytoReynolds-Wood.doc
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/JonesReplytoReynolds-Wood.pdf
A response to Reynolds and Wood (Word Document)
Frank Legge
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Response_to_Reynolds_and_Wood2.doc
Here is the other article on Nanothermite I was looking for earlier . . .
Superthermite: Military Reloads with Nanotech
by John Gartner
http://www.technologyreview.com/NanoTech/14105/
Ok, next arguement that I need to rebut?
Time for me to go get a latte . . .
On edit here is more:
Molten Steel at WTC 1, 2, 7. How? 9/11 Truth. Forensic Evidence of Incediaries:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7865672648051631094&q=911+molten&hl=en
BYU Physics Prof. Steven Jones Video Evidence of Thermite Use on 9/11:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2251334470336206811&q=911+molten&hl=en
911 Mysteries – Demolitions (Part 2 of 3):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-999558027849894376&q=911+molten&hl=en
Kevin Ryan, UL whistleblower lectures on 9/11 (a Chemist and formerly of UL). Very good. If you haven't watched this you must:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2240960989290438907&q=911+molten&hl=en
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2006 - 12:00pm PT
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Chuckcar,
I don't doubt it. What's your point? "Pull-it" in the demo world can mean by explosives or by cables or by other means. But in CD, it means bringing it down with explosives.
Try responding without using . . .
Ad Hominen, ridicule, slander etc. Let's try to keep it civil. Let's keep it fact and evidence based. Or can you not respond that way?
I would love nothing more than for you all to prove me wrong. I don't like knowing that my government can murder many, many Americans or anyone for that matter for personal or collective Neo-con gain. But the facts speak for themselves.
Try reading the NSA document that has been declassified at the NSA official Archive at GWU, that another posted upstream, on Operation "Northwoods". Check-out pg. 13 of the pdf or pg. 10 of the original document. I suggest reading the entire document. Let your eyes open to how unbelievably evil our government can be. Thank God JFK put a stop to the Joint Chiefs of Staffs' plans. JFK made no friends among the Bush Crime Family (BCF) and those who would want to do something so diabolical. He paid with his life.
From the official archives of the NSA at George Washington University --- Operation Northwoods (actual copy of the original document in pdf format):
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf
See page 13 of the pdf, or page 10 org. document.
On edit: The National Security Archive Homepage . . .
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/the_archive.html
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 18, 2006 - 12:19pm PT
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"...I would love nothing more than for you all to prove me wrong. I don't like knowing that my government can murder many, many Americans or anyone for that matter for personal or collective Neo-con gain. But the facts speak for themselves..."
As others have said (quite accurately) the burden of proof is on you to prove your position--not on us to disprove you. Proving a negative is a non-starter. I can claim that I took a trip to the moon and back last night--and it's quite impossible for you to prove that I didn't.
Curt
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Nov 18, 2006 - 01:51pm PT
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Klimmer: "try responding without using . . .Ad Hominen, ridicule, slander etc. Let's try to keep it civil. Let's keep it fact and evidence based. Or can you not respond that way?"
-Maybe, if you cut the condescending bullsh#t, conspiracy boy.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2006 - 02:51pm PT
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Well, I will make this quick since there are things to do today . . . and climbing and flying my paraglider this week of vacation is a high priority.
Curt,
Actually the burden of proof is on our government to prove the OCT or hypothesis as published in the "9-11 Commission Report." The 9-11 Truth movement has brought forth countless examples of evidence and proof that completely invalidates the official theory or hypothesis. Therefore, it is invalid and must be rejected. That is how science works. The 9-11 Commission Report does however, make a nice door-stop. We have large amounts of evidence now that will make anyone who truly thinks about it take great pause: we have the motive, means, opportunity, physical evidence, and countless eyewitness testimonies that support what was seen, heard, and felt on 9-11-01.
We are even starting to get those with accidental yet specific views of the plans for 9-11 to come forth. And if there are specific typed-up written plans labeled "Top Secret" for 9-11 as it unfolded, then it is MIHOP all the way. No way around that. And someone who has seen those very plans has come forth. I know there are more. There were many other soldiers in CENTCOM with Sgt. LJ that day. Let's hope they have a conscience and love their country as much as Sgt. Lauro Chevez does.
This is why we are calling for new investigations by completely independant parties (I would prefer a study team created through the UN) to re-investigate 9-11.
Stevep,
I will read the article when I have the chance. But my immediate response is then why do so many use the phrase "Pull it" in the demolition/CD world? The article is not being honest.
Once again . . .
The 9-11 Truther “Sure” calls a CD company (Controlled Demolition, Inc.) and gets clarification for the phrase “Pull it.” What does “Pull-it” mean in the CD world?:
http://www.pumpitout.com/audio/pull_it_mix.mp3
Cintune,
You have proven my point. Good one.
On edit:
LEB,
I can try to pull all the links and summarize the CTers arguements here in this long thread, but I'm on vacation this week and I want to play. I will try to do something to that effect. Good idea.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Nov 18, 2006 - 03:04pm PT
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Ho ho ho. Sanctimony gets you nowhere, but believe whatever you want.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 18, 2006 - 05:20pm PT
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"...Curt,
Actually the burden of proof is on our government to prove the OCT or hypothesis as published in the "9-11 Commission Report." The 9-11 Truth movement has brought forth countless examples of evidence and proof that completely invalidates the official theory or hypothesis. Therefore, it is invalid and must be rejected. That is how science works..."
The "9-11 Commission Report" represents the most simple explanation of the events in question that is consistent with all of the observable data. Therefore, ala Occam's razor, this explanation is more believable than the various host of bullshit conspiracy theories. That, my somewhat confused friend, is "how science works."
Curt
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 19, 2006 - 01:19am PT
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Chuckar,
Why the discussion of pulling WTC 7 down with cables? I never suggested anything other than CD for WTC 7. And that is exactly what the very symetrical fall along with explosives zippering up the face and side of WTC tower 7 clearly demostrate. Classic CD. By the way, WTC 7 wasn't just pulled down for insurance purposes. Do you know who all the tenants of WTC 7 were? WTC 7 and the floor with the retrofitted blast resistant windows and the government tenants on that floor were major players in the scene of the crime.
WTC 6 during the clean-up someone suggested was pulled with cables. I concede "Pull it" for a demo company can also mean pull it down with cables, but it is also used in CD. To say it is not is a flat-out lie.
That phone call wasn't to just any demo company, but to Controlled Demolition, Inc., whom were involved and worked for the Oklahoma City bombing and the WTC towers clean-up, as mentioned by Alex Jones.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 19, 2006 - 01:26am PT
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Pelosi did it. Prove me wrong Klimmer.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2006 - 02:35am PT
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Healje-
Regarding the reasoning that explosive or cutting charges couldn't have been placed because there would need to be so much patching; Most of the office buildings that I'm familiar with have suspended acoustic ceilings. Above the ceiling tiles, the structure is readily accessible.
The report from the demo monitering company seems convincing, but if they happened to have monitering equipment running at the time, it's possible that they're part of the team.
I agree that the video of molten something is not evidence of thermite being used.
The conflicting reports of molten metal in the pit reminds of the Pentagon crash- witnesses saying there were no airplane parts at the scene, and later there are parts produced. Damage control?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 19, 2006 - 12:54pm PT
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This entire thread is a great example of a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing.
Curt
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 19, 2006 - 07:10pm PT
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WBraun,
You are absolutely right. Chuckcar, Graniteclimber, HJ, WoodySt, Curt, et al. all use the same kind of mis-reasoning and ill-logic as does Brent Blanchard when he attempts to refute CD of WTC Towers 1, 2, and 7, or for that matter anything that directly contradicts and invalidates the OCT as Jim Hoffman points out. That is why I called them OCT apologists at the start. And they all fail miserably.
A Critical Analysis of the Collapse of the WTC Towers 1, 2, & 7 from an Explosives and Conventional Demolition Industry Viewpoint
By Brent Blanchard
August 8, 2006
c-2006 www.implosionworld.com
http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%20STUDY%208-06%20w%20clarif%20as%20of%209-8-06%20.pdf
Reply to Brent Blanchard/Protec's . . .
A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE COLLAPSE OF WTC TOWERS 1, 2 & 7 FROM AN EXPLOSIVES AND CONVENTIONAL DEMOLITION INDUSTRY VIEWPOINT
by Jim Hoffman
http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/blanchard/index.html
GC,
Yes, I readily admit I came on a little strong when I first jumped in, that’s why I included myself and said “Let’s try to keep it civil. Let’s keep it fact and evidence based.”
“Let’s” as in let us, that includes me.
You obviously didn’t watch and/or read all the articles regarding the issue between Prof. Woodward and Prof. Jones. Had you, you would know that he indeed did take it further in additional experiments and got the Aluminum very hot so that it started to glow salmon, then orange and then yellow, including the object that it was contained within. He says this plainly. But when in this state or phase, when poured through the atmosphere indoors or outdoors where the reflectivity (a property) of Aluminum comes into play with direct sunlight regardless of it’s temperature, very hot or just hot enough to melt, then it immediately goes silver once again, and it does so within just a few feet of falling. This is how Aluminum or Aluminum with lots of organic matter behaves.
The 9-11 Commission, NIST, FEMA all admit the fires didn’t get hot enough to melt Iron or Steel and turn it from a solid to a liquid state. You would not have flowing Iron or Steel as a result of Aviation fuel fires or organic matter fires. Just does not happen. However, the fires could have been hot enough to melt Aluminum. But with the experiments that Prof. Jones did, he proved what was molten and dripping out of the corner of the South Tower was not Aluminum as hypothesized by NIST. It just couldn’t be. So what could it be if the fires by themselves couldn’t get hot enough to melt Iron or Steel, and it can’t be Aluminum?
Well, with the found evidence and chemical signature of Thermite/Thermate and the visual evidence of pouring molten Iron out of the South Tower with the very characteristic wisps of Aluminum Oxide, which is a product from the thermite and Steel reaction, coming from the mixed in Aluminum that is used as a reactant within the original Thermite/thermate formula --- it is more than likely Iron which is the by product of the reactant Themite/thermate reacting with Steel. And the characteristic glow of dripping molten Iron as a product, and the temperatures needed to melt the Steel are easily achieved with themite/thermate.
The idea that it could be plastics dripping isn’t correct. Yes, plastics are easily melted, but they don’t flow bright yellow or orange at high temperatures. They are hydro-carbon based and they burn and turn black and get very sticky and cling to everything. Haven’t we all burned plastic at times, even in a camp-fire in the evening out climbing with friends? Oh, the toxic inhumanity of it all. We aren’t good environmentalists at times are we?
LEB,
The task of putting this altogether, summarizing, and bullet formatting the CTer arguments and evidence is going to be a big task. A task that I’m not looking forward to. But when I have the time I will try as I said I would.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 19, 2006 - 07:27pm PT
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Hey all OCTers,
"Pull it" as plainly stated by Silverstein is the very least of all the enormous evidence we have for CD. The fact that he said it, and the fact that it is used in context to pull buildings down by CD is without dispute. Yes, it can mean in addition, to pull down with cables. Isn't that the confussing beauty of the English language? One word can often have several meanings, but it is the context in which it is used that gives the meaning. In Silverstein's case he said what it meant by the context, and everyone who honestly listens knows what he is referring to.
WTC Tower 7 was not pulled down by cables. Don't even try to suggest that new dead-end and straw-man to confuse the issue.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 19, 2006 - 07:35pm PT
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"...The 9-11 Commission, NIST, FEMA all admit the fires didn’t get hot enough to melt Iron or Steel and turn it from a solid to a liquid state. You would not have flowing Iron or Steel as a result of Aviation fuel fires or organic matter fires. Just does not happen. However, the fires could have been hot enough to melt Aluminum. But with the experiments that Prof. Jones did, he proved what was molten and dripping out of the corner of the South Tower was not Aluminum as hypothesized by NIST. It just couldn’t be. So what could it be if the fires by themselves couldn’t get hot enough to melt Iron or Steel, and it can’t be Aluminum...?
It is aluminum. Jones proves no such thing when he claims it's not. He is a crackpot hoping (I guess correctly) that naive and unsophisticated conspiracy wackos will believe his scientifically baseless drivel.
Curt
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 19, 2006 - 07:39pm PT
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Is this thread why the rest of the forum has been like molasses lately?
Kill it!
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 19, 2006 - 08:49pm PT
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What? Nothing from the National Enquirer?
Curt
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2006 - 08:53pm PT
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Intellectual dishonesty seems to be your trademark.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 19, 2006 - 09:11pm PT
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Who, me? Just because I don't believe junk science?
Curt
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 19, 2006 - 09:18pm PT
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Jim Hoffman, who did that rebuttal to the paper by the demolition expert is a mathmatician and a software engineer. He may be very good at those things, but I'd inclined to take the word of an industry expert over his when dealing with building demolition and failures. I suppose it is possible that Blanchard is somehow involved in the coverup, but I guess at some point, that ever-expanding circle of individuals gets too big for me to believe.
Also, Hoffman attempts to refute Blanchard's statement that explosive demolition is always intitiated at the bottom of buildings to allow gravity to work better. He does this basically saying that it could have been done higher in the building by using GREATER amounts of explosives. I have a real problem believing that literally tons of explosives could have been installed without people noticing, and then also survive the impact and fire caused by the place crashes.
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Nov 19, 2006 - 09:46pm PT
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You know guys I absolutely hate this thread. The back and forth bickering, name calling etc. We may never know the answer to this debate just as we will never know what may or may not have really happened to Kennedy. Personally I am sick of it and can't wait until it fades away. I am in favor of holding Bush and Cheney responsible for something far more easily determined and what I personally believe is an event that will ultimately prove(if it hasn't already) far more detrimental to the well being of this country and that is their complicity of dragging this country into a war on false pretenses. More dead Americans than 911 and 20,000 others physically maimed in some capacity. Add to this an unkwown number of dead Iraq citizens and a squandering of any post 911 good will towards America. What a waste. A waste of human life, good will, and money that I can't help but believe could have made a real poitive differance to this world. I wish the two of them and their whole admistration could be tried by the world at large as war criminals.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 19, 2006 - 10:39pm PT
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yow 320 posts,
aren't those guys executed yet?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2006 - 10:40pm PT
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Hahahahaha good one Jaybro
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 19, 2006 - 11:51pm PT
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"yow 320 posts,
aren't those guys executed yet?"
They are always executin' That's why they call them the Executive Branch.
One things is clear. There is tons of disagreement out there about what happened. It's time to put a credible investigation in place that's not incomplete, inconsistent and that will finally address all the unanswered questions instead of ignoring them.
Not easy to do but the 9-11 commission definitely fell short and, by the admission of their own members, had political agendas in mind.
Peace
Karl
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 20, 2006 - 12:17am PT
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There have been sufficient studies of 911; more will make no difference. You could have a hundred more, and it would be futile relative to the conspiracy types. They will deny all that conflicts with their beliefs because they want to believe the government was behind the attacks. It's part of their nature, their emotional needs. It's religion with them, and they will hold on to their fantasies into the grave.
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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Nov 21, 2006 - 03:58am PT
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This thread (haven't really read it) makes me think of a quote from Hitler:
“Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction.”
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 21, 2006 - 04:30am PT
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Just because a website has court papers saying a judge is ordering the FBI to quit stonewalling about evacuating the Bin Laden Family without interogation immediately after 9-11 doesn't mean a judge actually ordered that! What are you, a fruitcake?
I mean, even if the government flew the Bin Ladens out of the country and then tried to cover it up, there's nothing to see there. They couldn't help it if they had a wacko son. I mean look at Jenna Bush! Is W responsible?
We can trust that, even though the Saudis financed part of the 9-11 attacks, they probably hardly knew they were doing it or George Bush wouldn't still be kissing them on the lips. Lots of former male cheerleaders do stuff like that and there's nothing wrong with it.
And the fact that George himself has business dealings with both the Bin Laden Family and the financers of 9-11 means nothing. There are probably a dozen or even dozens of people among the 300 million in America with closer ties to the terrorists.
There is really no point in questioning at all since anything a fruitcake says is fruity. So what if the government timelines, claimed to be accurate plus or minus 2 seconds are off by a half minute or more! Just cause the government claims something doesn't mean it's supposed to be accurate. Have you got used to that by now?
Because we spend the time and money to solve blatant and demonstrable contradiction, the naysayers will only find resort to nitpicking.
Nothing to see here. Back to sleep. No need to read the thread. Just trust. The government didn't lie about Iraq. Why would they say anyting misleading about 9-11?
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 21, 2006 - 11:15am PT
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Looks like Russia has been killing its own people to justify war as well. One of their ex-spies defected to England and spilled the beans. In response, the Russians are suspected of poisoning him with radioactivity. In todays CNN news from
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/21/uk.spypoisoned.ap/index.html
"Litvinenko joined the KGB counterintelligence forces in 1988, and rose to the rank of colonel in the FSB. He began specializing in terrorism and organized crime in 1991, and was transferred to the FSB's most secretive department on criminal organizations in 1997.
Litvinenko quit Russia for Britain six years ago and has been an outspoken critic of the Kremlin ever since.
In 2003 he wrote a book, "The FSB Blows Up Russia," accusing his country's secret service agency of staging apartment-house bombings in 1999 that killed more than 300 people in Russia and sparked the second war in Chechnya."
Peace
karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 24, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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If someone could video tape, DVD, or TIVO this I would appreciate it and I would purchase a copy from you. I'm up here in Bishop at the moment on vacation or I would normally do this.
The climbing is always good, and it looks like it will be a good day to fly for paragliders . . .
Just found this on DU:
"Must watch event with David Ray Griffin, etc. on CSPAN2! Set your TIVOs!
Don't miss this and pass it on!!! C-SPAN 2 will air the Berkeley, Calif. event with David Ray Griffin, Peter Dale Scott, Kevin Ryan (who proved the steel was unburnable and was fired immed.), Peter Phillips, and Ray McGovern (former CIA) as M.C., based on Griffin and Scott’s co-edited book titled “9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out”
three times, THIS FRIDAY AND SATURDAY !!
Friday, Nov. 24th at 1 pm pacific time (4:00 PM eastern time) and Saturday Nov. 25th at both 12:30 am pacific time (3:30 AM eastern time); and again at 7 pm pacific time (10:00 PM eastern time)."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2792206
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 24, 2006 - 09:18pm PT
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I dont' suppose you'd buy it if I handed you a story from an admitted liar, traiter, terrorist who spent time in a sanitarium, but it doesn't matter.
Some Christians also dream of taking over the world. Some Israelis (including the founders) dream of having the whole Levant. Extreme Muslims can be extreme, no argument, I hate those guys.
Your "sell everyone on a religious war and let's roll" isn't the problem or solution.
Jerusalem should be an international city of peace just as the UN intended when they offered Israel a partition.
Failing that, let's move everybody out of Jerusalem, let or force fundamentalists of all relgions move there unarmed, and supply them with basic staples. They can make heaven or hell for each other.
PEace
Karl
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quicknthedead
Sport climber
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
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Nov 25, 2006 - 12:19am PT
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Thanks to Klimmer for his post of this information.
Here is the summary so it can be understood easily.
And yes, it is a smoking gun (more like a derringer, but it still kills the OCT).
ctf
“Seismic Proof – 9/11 Was An Inside Job (Updated Version II)”
Link: http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Seismic_Proof___9.11_Was_An_Inside_Job.doc
By Craig T. Furlong & Gordon Ross, Scholars for 9/11 Truth: http://www.st911.org
The US Government, incriminated by its own facts, the perfect evidence—how ironic.
Summary:
News Tip: A real 9/11 smoking gun…that no one can debunk (these are facts, not theory).
Airplane “Impact” Times: Incriminating Evidence of 9/11 Coverup & Complicity
The official times for plane "impact" [precise to the second] as declared by the US Government, from both the 9/11 Commission and from NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology), are different and yet both are true and accurate times. What can this factual contradiction mean? Looking exclusively at WTC1, there is found an indisputable causal link:
One World Trade, September 11, 2001
American Airlines Flight 11 “impact” time:
8:46:30 UTC, per LDEO seismic data (National Institute of Standards and Technology, 2005)
8:46:40 UTC, per FAA last primary radar contact (9/11 Commission Final Report, 2004)
Q- What caused the 8:46:30 seismic event that occurred 10 seconds before the actual air crash at 8:46:40?
A- The only possibility is huge explosions, as corroborated by many eyewitnesses at the time.
Q- Who caused these explosions before the plane hit?
Notes:
In 2004, the 9/11 Commission avoided addressing the earlier seismic time (which had been attributed in error by Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University, originally in 2001 as plane “impact”).
In 2005, NIST avoided addressing the 9/11 Commission’s later time for the aircraft’s actual impact.
Both the 9/11 Commission and NIST avoided addressing the many witnesses who testified of explosions in the sub-basements before the plane crashed.
Summary:
This precision data has yet to be refuted. It is from the two highest governmental entities charged with looking into what happened on 9/11. Both declared these times as accurate, and in doing so corroborate William Rodriguez and the many eyewitnesses the morning of 9/11 who testified of explosions in the sub-basements of WTC1 before American Airlines Flight 11 struck the building. This is indicting evidence of governmental coverup, and thus implication of complicity.
Before it is too late, demand a new, truly independent, criminal investigation of 9/11, this time a real one.
Justice waits...{and there is no statute of time limitation on murder}
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2006 - 03:13am PT
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Chuckar-
By "taken apart", do you mean the responses like 'I'm not going to read the paper', and 'It couldn't have happened so it didn't happen'? Your assertion implies more reasoning than what I read in the links. This issue of the timing of seismic data may or may not hold up, but it's worth looking into.
In the building field there's a saying- You don't get what you expect, you get what you inspect.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2006 - 01:22pm PT
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Chuckcar,
Yea, we're playing tag team.
ROTFLMAO
I have not hidden the fact that I am a DU member and often post there. Quicknthedead is also. I first found his work on the discrepencies concerning the pre-exlosions and the impacts of the jets on DU and linked it to here for all of you to get an education.
I'm happy to see that Quickenthedead has followed the post to his work here. I guess there is a way to do that? I personally don't know how to do that. Hey didn't the pilot from Pilots for 9/11 Truth do the same? I'm happy to see that they do. I'm not the expert in any of this as they are. I'm more than happy when someone who knows more about 9-11 to post-up. We all can get more educated on the facts.
By the way, I really don't go out of my way to hide my identity. I'm Klimmer on DU also. So the BCF and the Neo-con Rethug admin. know exactly who I am. Hey, I'm small potatoes, however I'm very active politically and they don't like activists like me, do they? If I ever dissapear I would like people to know. But they have bigger fish to fry.
I can just see it now, someday driving across the Mojave Desert on my way to Bishop and the scene out of the movie "Syriana" happens. Bummer . . .
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quicknthedead
Sport climber
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
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Nov 25, 2006 - 01:38pm PT
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Chuckcar,
I ran across your site last night and noticed Klimmer's post. Even if it were true, that we were doing this together (which we are not), it would still be OK because the truth about 9/11 is critical. It is the most important matter to ever face the American people (if they would only learn of the facts of what really happened).
Secondly, your statement that JREF Forum and other places have torn me apart is debatable, but they certainly have not done so to the paper. No one yet has addressed nor refuted the facts in this paper. These are accurate, official times issued by the government; and, remember, there are many eyewitnesses who testified of bombs in the sub-basements of WTC1 before the plane struck the building (and the government refused to hear and present their testimonies to the American people).
Simply because you or anyone else says this paper has been refuted does not make it so. If you or anyone can debunk this information, I would welcome you to do so (then I could go back to having a semi-normal life). If you can, you will be the first to do so {in the world}.
Here is more information on the subject:
http://www.911myths.com/Recorded_Radar_Data_Study--all_four_aircraft.pdf
The FAA had all the aircraft data from PRIMARY RADAR RETURNS. Primary returns do not give altitude and can have some error in position, but they do provide precise time. For each station there was a radar track of the flight by position with accompanying timestamps. Each track was aligned to the 84th RADES as the benchmark (it had radar data for all flights from beginning to end). Once aligned, they adjusted where necessary so that all the data from all the stations was in agreement to UTC.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc01.pdf
We are dealing here with time. If you look at the Fig. 2 graph from the flight path study of AA Flt 11, all the primary radar returns {that were, BTW, estimated to altitude} have accurate times. The last one, sitting at zero altitude (which means nothing because it is a primary radar return), is 8:46:40. Remember, the NTSB took the data from the Feb. 15, 2002 Recorded Radar Data Study and incorporated all the data, including times, into the flight path studies the NTSB issued on Feb. 19, 2002 for all the flights of 9/11. The 8:46:40 final primary radar return for AA Flt 11 is part of that data, and can be easily seen in the “blow-up” presented in the paper:
“Seismic Proof – 9/11 Was An Inside Job (Updated Version II)”
Link: http://www.studyof911.com/articles/mirrored/craigfurlong/
You should read some NTSB accident reports. The final radar return is always of particular interest. The 8:46:40 is an actual return. It is listed as "approximate" in the flight path study because of the radar-refresh aspect of the antenna going through its sweep; i.e., "approximate" because it could have also been:
8:46:41, or
8:46:42, or
8:46:43, etc...
because of the sweep/refresh aspect of radar antenna. But this also means it could not have been earlier than 8:46:40, only later. And if it were later, that would make the time differential between the seismic and radar even greater, so this is a non-issue.
Also, the paper covers how ATC Dave Bottiglia saw it disappear at 8:46:40 (this is a long, long time from 8:46:30 in the world atomic time-clock system, UTC).
Regarding the seismic time, NIST contracted with LDEO to reanalyze the times from 2001. This effort ended with NIST accepting the revised times, as found in their section entitled: "ABSOLUTE TIME ACCURACY". The time for WTC1 plane "impact" was 8:46:30 (this was not the plane’s impact).
Regarding the NIST “ABSOLUTE TIME ACCURACY”, read 3.5 and 3.6 from Chapter 3. Here is the link (be patient; it is a huge file):
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_1-8.pdf
There is no question, all times were synchronized to UTC.
The cold, hard truth for all who believe in the official government theory {OCT} is that the facts of this paper contain accurate data put out by the government (where neither it's right hand nor left hand knew what the other was doing),...AND...it is not up to the authors to prove the data is true.
IT IS UP TO CRITICS TO SHOW THE DATA IS FALSE.
The US Government is incriminated by its own facts, the perfect evidence—how ironic.
This is a real 9/11 smoking gun…that no one can debunk (these are facts, not theory).
Summary:
This precision data has yet to be refuted. It is from the two highest governmental entities charged with looking into what happened on 9/11. Both declared these times as accurate, and in doing so corroborate William Rodriguez and the many eyewitnesses the morning of 9/11 who testified of explosions in the sub-basements of WTC1 before American Airlines Flight 11 struck the building. This is indicting evidence of governmental coverup, and thus implication of complicity.
Demand a new, truly independent, criminal investigation of 9/11, this time a real one.
Justice waits...{and there is no statute of time limitation on murder}
BTW, I was very involved in the Hiking Club when I was in high school back in 1965-67 (president the last two years), and remember many memorable and exciting events we experienced in the San Bernardino Mountains.
Ah, the majesty and beauty of the mountains!
You guys stay safe!
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jstan
climber
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Nov 25, 2006 - 02:23pm PT
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Any thread lasting 300 posts needs to step back a bit.
As it becomes increasingly apparent to all that the recent foreign policy initiatives of the US cannot and will not bear fruit, I trust we will see increased bipartisan willingness to study how we can make our processes stronger. It is hard to believe our country is prepared consciously to seek weakness. We are presently facing a failure of the first magnitude that is now, worldwide, causing readjustment of relationships among nations to last more than fifty years. The WWII era has come to its end. That is sad. I was present to see fleets of B-17’s going overhead on their way to Britain. It was awesome. Then the Marshall Plan along with nuclear technology completely changed the expectations nations had for each other’s behavior. There was so much promise.
While the present US behavior is more characteristic of of the 1870-1917 era, there is yet hope. The recent change in China’s administration was the first of its kind. Power was transferred peacefully. As China builds relationships, a process it began last week with Pakistan and India, coherent development on the Asian landmass becomes a possibility. China’s symbiotic relationship with the resource rich Russia, I think, has to be taken as a given. Dramatic at times, surely, but always in their mutual self-interest. The final turn will come when Japan accepts its new relationship with that reality.
Much of what we in the US have come to expect as normal, will soon be history. Our personal and national willingness to spend future dollars has created huge overseas dollar reserves that will greatly reduce our opportunities for an independent foreign policy. We are to become the tail, and no longer the dog. We need to become realists again, look to Ben Franklin’s advice, and prepare for about 100 years of very hard work. Doing less will take us to a place to which no thinking person would choose to go.
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quicknthedead
Sport climber
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
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Nov 25, 2006 - 02:44pm PT
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Agreed about this thread being too long.
Chuckcar,
The seismic data you linked to has nothing to do with the time of the planes hitting the buildings.
Then you present two questions:
[QUOTE] Chuckcar:
So these massive explosions happened in the basements before the aircrafts hit. And the buildings did not collapse then?
But some how they cause the collapse to happen 90 floors above an hour later?
[END QUOTE]
You are asking for factual answers we don't have yet (I have my opinions, but we need the truth), and this (along with many other reasons concerning 9/11 {e.g., how about WTC7, the obvious controlled demolition}) is why we need a new, truly independent, criminal investigation of 9/11, this time a real one. This is not a request anymore.
It has become a demand.
One last thing.
WRONG! I do not follow Klimmer.
I follow the effect of this paper over the internet (and it is spreading).
Regards,
Craig T. Furlong
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quicknthedead
Sport climber
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
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Nov 25, 2006 - 05:44pm PT
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You need to check out this new report by "Winston Smith" who has done an excellent job via photographic analysis of the damage area to the south-face of WTC7.
It shows that NIST is erroneous in its estimates of the damage to WTC7:
http://www.studyof911.com/articles/winstonwtc701/
That quote by the head of NIST investigating WTC7 looms even larger now (excerpt from this report):
Small wonder then that the head of the WTC project for NIST, Dr Shyam Sunder, stated in a March 2006 New York Magazine interview, "But truthfully, I don’t really know. We’ve had trouble getting a handle on building No. 7". Unless NIST can provide some photographic evidence that we haven't yet seen, it would appear that the institute's interpretations of the damage to the south face of WTC7 are at best grossly inaccurate, and at worst, deliberately biased in favor of their hypothesis for the collapse of the building.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 25, 2006 - 09:42pm PT
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Yeah, this thread is definitely too long. It's time to execute the conspiracy loons so we can get ready for the next conspiracy.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2006 - 10:03pm PT
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WoodySt,
When you say . . .
"It's time to execute the conspiracy loons . . ."
That sounds like a threat. And just who are the conspiracy loons?
Typical coming from someone living in Riverside. I know all about Riverside. You're continueing to give it a bad reputation --- home of the radical right-wing nuts. Do you own a gun?
Personally I don't believe in the death penalty, even for the Shrub and Darth Cheney, even though I detest them and their crime riden ways. Lifetime(s) incarceration without parole. Slam the prison door shut and throw the damn keys away.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 25, 2006 - 10:12pm PT
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"Yeah, this thread is definitely too long. It's time to execute the conspiracy loons so we can get ready for the next conspiracy."
It would be sad if this thread became longer than the Todd Skinner thread, so I am going to stop posting on it.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 25, 2006 - 10:16pm PT
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So just start new thread and label it WTC etc, etc whatever you like.
Police Officer: Sir, your eyes are red, are you drunk?
Drunk Driver: Officer, have you been eating donuts, your eyes are glazed?
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jstan
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 02:17am PT
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I deleted
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 11:23am PT
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It should be noted that there is a whole different line of questioning regarding the government not coming clean with the whole story about 9-11 that has nothing to do with the buildings going to but rather the motive, actions and interactions of the players. See the timeline at
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/02_11_02_lucy.html
Read the list which is supported by news reports and documents, and tell me the 9-11 commission covered the bases.
Peace
Karl
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 26, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
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How about UFOs for a while, or the Kennedy assassination, or Pearl Harbor, or Locker's brain.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 12:19pm PT
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The US public remains uninformed and indifferent, locked into a state of denial that is almost psychotic (Woody) in its disconnection from reality.
If the US public would rise up, the game would be over.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 12:34pm PT
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Sure Woody start a thread and tell us what you believe. Do all your beliefs correspond neatly with the mainstream media reportage?
This whole 9-11 thing has an interesting parallel in this former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko poisoned by radiation in England. The guy claims Russia bombed apartment buildings in Russia that killed three hundred people and blamed it on Muslims so they could go to war with Chechnya. The only difference between that and 9-11 is scale.
Still, I hear that the media in Russia is still pretty much under control and the Alexander Litvinenko isn't getting much press overall, even though the net in Russia is all buzzing from it.
The question is, where and how far do you decide to believe somebody like Alexander Litvinenko? Do you believe he was a Russian spy? Even the media and Russia admit it. Do you believe he was poisoned by radiation? Would you have believed it if the English government hadn't confirmed it?
Yada yada. It's easy to throw up you hands and say "conspiracy theory" without any evidence to the contrary, but it just means your head is in the sand.
The extent that our Iraq adventure is costing our country has yet to be revealed. We can't afford to buy more government lies at the cost of the lives of our friends and kids, or our financial future either. Do you believe Iraq had WMDs in 2003? The government said they were sure and had prove. Evidence later showed they lied about it and knew they were lying. Which do you believe?
Peace
Karl
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Nov 26, 2006 - 06:06pm PT
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Darn, is everybody leaving just when this thread was getting interesting?
Where y'all going?
Hello?
Hello?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 06:40pm PT
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Blame Brutus. He's the last guy in the room, holding a tube chock and looking haggard!
It's Sunday afternoon. Folks are more likely feel like debating the big issue when they should be working on Tuesday afternoon.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 01:07am PT
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Here's more on the paperwork and financing side of things. I recommend reading the whole thing at
http://fromthewilderness.com/members/102506_possible_names.php
If you're asked for membership info and password, any email and password will do. It's complete with references and links
"The man identified by the FBI as one of the primary financers of the 9/11 attacks, Omar Sheikh, may have worked for British intelligence during the 1990s, according to a newly released book by Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf.
“It is believed in some quarters that while Omar Sheikh was at the LSE (London School of Economics) he was recruited by the British intelligence agency MI6,” Musharraf writes in his book, In the Line of Fire: A Memoir. “It is said,” Musharraf notes, “that MI6 persuaded him to take an active part in demonstrations against Serbian aggression in Bosnia and even sent him to Kosovo to join the jihad.”1
The man in question, Omar Sheikh, became infamous in 2002 when he was sentenced to death for the murder of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, a crime Musharraf and several others claim Omar did not commit.2
While Omar Sheikh’s reported ties to Pearl’s death have been making headlines for years, his alleged links to 9/11, as well as to Pakistani and Western intelligence agencies, have gone significantly underreported.
Similarly, several key points have been omitted from Musharraf’s book, perhaps in an attempt to cover up embarrassing and possibly criminal activities of Pakistani and US officials.
Musharraf’s book does not mention Omar Sheikh’s alleged role in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, nor does it mention Omar’s widely reported connections to Pakistan’s intelligence agency, the ISI, nor does mention Omar’s alleged history with the CIA.
A brief review of such details would have revealed startling information.
Prior to the 9/11 attacks, the head of Pakistan’s ISI, General Mahmud Ahmed, ordered Omar Sheikh to wire $100,000 to the lead hijacker, Mohammed Atta—a report that has been confirmed by the director of the FBI’s financial crimes unit, Dennis Lormel.3
General Mahmud, who is portrayed in Musharraf’s book as a close military advisor and a strong ally during the 1999 coup,4 maintained simultaneous relationships with the Taliban, al-Qaeda, and the governments of both Pakistan and the United States.5
In fact, General Mahmud (who allegedly ordered Omar Sheikh to finance the 9/11 attacks) was in Washington the week of 9/11 for, as one Pakistani report put it, “mysterious meetings at the Pentagon and National Security Council.”6.."
Food for thought and another range of things unexplained by the 9-11 commission.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 27, 2006 - 02:51am PT
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Chuckcar
Oh these are just all trivialities, the real meat and bones is that is that you will be seen wrong in all your assumptions.
Just you wait, you will be shocked ......
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2006 - 03:05am PT
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I've been thinking about an image from the Kobe earthquake ('95), from a link earlier in this thread. It shows a number of buildings that have toppled- maybe 20 stories tall. the buildings are basically lying on their sides, intact, not deformed or crushed. When they hit the ground, it would have been with considerable speed and force. Even though that is not the direction that would have been designed to be the strongest, you don't see much distortion.
Compare this to the story of 'collapse initiation' where the WTC upper floors section is supposed to have smashed down (15, 20 feet?) on the floor below and led to the 110 stories being blown to dust in 10 seconds.
Even if you flame about the flames, it doesn't add up. Those buildings didn't fall down, they were blown to bits.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 03:06am PT
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I give Chuckcar credit for addressing the questions that others have raised.
Personally I'm not into the "controlled demo" evidence regarding 9-11 but that's me.
Who knows if the truth, whatever it is, will come out. We still hardly know squat about Kennedy and nobody really know who burned the Reichstag while Hilter was rising to power either.
Peace
Karl
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Blight
Social climber
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Nov 27, 2006 - 08:38am PT
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"Do governments really do this crap, kill their own for whatever selfish evil reason or motive?"
Of course not.
Only the terrorist related programme activities supporting nations of the axis of evil do such things. Not ours.
So naturally, when one of the british government's top biological warfare experts was known to have information proving that the WMD claims about Iraq were a lie, it was a just a tragic coincidence that he "committed suicide" before he could deliver the evidence.
Committed suicide.
While out walking his dog.
By taking 29 co-proxamol tablets and slashing his wrists.
And without getting any blood on himself.
No, only evil foreigners kill their own.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 28, 2006 - 06:36pm PT
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Excellent presentation at Berkeley regarding 9-11 Truth. This was on C-Span just last week after Thanksgiving, but the presentation event took place much earlier. This is must see TV! Really, really good stuff.
All OCTers can eat their own baloney. Have as much as you want. I want the truth.
September 24, 2006 marked the first public event sponsored by Berkeley radio station KPFA regarding the alternative vision of the events of 9/11.
9/11 & AMERICAN EMPIRE: INTELLECTUALS SPEAK OUT
A KPFA public event. A landmark event publicizing 9/11Truth, including the complete presentations of each of four major contributors to the book American Empire: David Ray Griffin, Peter Dale Scott, Peter Phillips and Kevin Ryan plus question and answer moderated by host CIA veteran Ray McGovern.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3195658770053494633
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