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Mimi
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:56am PT
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Yep, that's the same curse description I heard.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:59am PT
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Did I mention diarrehea too?...(the spyder Woman Curse...)
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:51pm PT
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In his book "Postcards from the TRailor Park" by Cameron Burns, he has a story in there about goign to do shiprock. He shows alot of merit and respect with his actions. There is also this site, " http://wwwright.com/climbing/tripreports/2002/Shiprock.htm that talks about climbing shiprock.
Just thought this info might help
Jesse
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 10, 2006 - 01:44pm PT
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Hi Jesse,
yeah, good thread. The Ouch pic was one of his best.
I think that if the Navaho could produce some decent guides that they could make a respectable income from guiding routes on their land.
It would require a change in the climbing culture where most people want to do their own thing to where submitting to a guide's supervision in order to obtain the privilege to experience some unique and fragile resources (not to mention expense) is deemed acceptable.
But it COULD work.
Let's not make the mistake of assuming that the res is public property.
(And before somebody accuses me of trying to turn climbing into a "rich man's sport" let me remind you, it already IS.)
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
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Speaking of climbing as a "rich man's sport", I went to boulder last weekend to hang out with hopes of finding some partners while my Girlfriend was taking a medical class. I thought this would be easy after all the stories of boulder being a climbing Mecca. I was shocked at the rude attitude of most of the climbers, and astonished by the sheer volume of gear that they had. Beginning climbers had two full sets of cams with all sorts of specialty equipment. It was only on the last day, after Friday and Saturday of asking around, that a group of climbers let me join them. I have never been so angry at a climbing community. Granted this doesn't go for all climbers in boulder. I just seemed ridiculous that out of 10 or more parties that I asked, only one let me crag with them. It makes me Appreciate Grand Junction because the climbing community is small and tight, as well as you never find other people out climbing.
Sorry for the rant.
Tribal Politics have always baffled me. Going to school in Durango, CO where every person who had a little smidgen of Indian blood was allowed full ride scholarships, yet the graduating percentage are below 50%. I guess Fort lewis college (durango) was making up for bad blood seeing as they were a Christian Indian boarding house.
Jesse.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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Maybe the nine that turned you down did you a favor.
Its nice being comfortable soloing.
Too many anecdotes about lax safety practices among current climbers for me to beg belays blindly.
Besides Jesse, you live on the side of the divide where you can climb AWAY from the crowds.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 10, 2006 - 04:13pm PT
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We've been round and round on this topic the last time it came up. The misinformation, bias, and ample prejudice evidenced every time an Indian topic is breached is lamentable in and of itself. But it just plain blows that folks would encourage other climbers to poach such climbs in the face of long standing efforts by groups like the AF and others to come to some understanding with various tribes around the country. There is plenty of good rock available without the baggage involved with such stone. That some folks still can't muster a shred of respect for tribal rights, histories, and legacies is a real commentary of cluelessness and one that speaks volumes more about us than Native peoples and culture.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:19am PT
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Ya just don't get it...the reason I encourage people to visit and climb on the Res is BECAUSE of the Navajo people. Yes; I " poached" climbs on the Reservation (If that is a term you feel comfortable with..). I also did some other stuff there too;....none of which I would have ever experienced if I hadn't gone there "poaching" in the first place. I lived in a mud hogan for 1 whle year, I played the piano and directed a choir for a whole communitie's Christmas program, I visited a 19 year old girl in the hospital who had been shot in the back by some white farmboy because he didn't like her stealing his car battery, I got my bicycle stolen, I had my house broken into countless times, I heald newborn babies of teenage girls, I picked drunk grannies out of the dirt, I had people visit my home every hour of the night begging for money for booze, I taught my Navajo friend Henry how to ice climb and jumar, I went to dozens of ceremonies where I was the only white person, I wrecked 3 cars on the res, I saw dead bodies in the street that had been thrown from speeding cars, I took children to the hospital for malnuturishment , I "adopted" 7 skinny dogs and fed them everyday, I spent most all of my paycheck on the res and supported local businesses, I invited large Navajo families to visit my parents in San Diego, I helped Indians whose cars were broken or stuck in a ditch, I held a 5th grade boy in my arms who had passed out from sniffing paint (He was in my class), I cried when I heard on of my students was killed with a 2 by 4, I partied with my Indain friends, I went on a climbing roadtrip to Joshua Tree with one of my Navajo buddies, I talked friends out of suiside, I got called every slanderous name a white person could ever be called on a res, I got threated with my life, I was ready to defend myself to the death, I drove in a car over 125 mph with a drunk Indian at the wheel, I moved away from my family and friends who I loved dearly to have a great adventure and make a difference in some Indian's lives, I learned from my classroon aid Maryjane that you don't need to have a college degree or travel to Europe to have a full and complete life, I cried because I was lonesome/scared/cold/afraid....and I cried because I was happy, proud/brave/alive......I played alot of basketball with my Navajo bros, I broke up fights and got into fights, I visited the priest and always had a cigarette with him (He was in a wheelchair from a random driveby shooting), I gave out Halloween candy to little Navajo kids who came to my door all wet from the cold rain/snow on Halloween, I sh#t in an cold outhouse for 1 year that was I shared with 2 other Navajo families (Alot of piss on the seat...), I met people who 20 years later I still consider my best friends, I saw beautiful sunsets, and sparkly snowy mornings, I heard the wind howl like demons possessed and encouraged my Navajo friend to go jogging and run in 10 K races,...I went months with out getting laid (and even got laid once or twice...),....and I knocked on strangers doors and asked them if I could park my car near their houses and hogans while I climbed... and they were facinated by my climbs, and they watched me climb all day (and often into the night), and always invited me into their homes , and once when it got dark, they drove their pickup trucks over to shine the light on the rocks for me when I rappelled in the dark, ...and I got bite by dogs hiking to do climbs, and I got stuck in snow, mud, sand, and brush getting to climbs........basically;...I had the time of my life.......f*#k yeah;...I encourage others to have similar wild adventures that you cannot have other places........like Lance says;...it's not about the bike......and it's not just about the climbing. Those who choose not to climb on the res for whatever reason;...so be it. Please don't lay any guilt trip on others;....for you will discourage them from one of the greatest adventures in N. America....and as for me;.... the finger pointers don't know me or probably don't know anything about living on an Indian Reservation, climbing on an Indian Reservation, or that we (The Indians and us "rich white folk") actually can hang together and be respectful, kind, loving, giving, sharing...and even climb together. As for the illigal nature;.....those of you who have never broke the law, please throw the first stone. Remember that 99.9% of Navajos don't have a clue that it's illigal to climb on the res, and 99.9% could give a rats ass about most rules and laws anyways....Most Navajos I know (which is alot) knew I climb, thought it was cool and wild and exciting and inspiring and facinating...(Which it is...)....Make up your own mind, and hopefully you have an open mind....and a kind, caring, loving one too for a facinating and wonderful group of people, The Navajo, .....who you can be fortunate enough to experience and learn from if you just have the sac to go for it and let it happen. If you fear the Indians or have your adventures elsewhere for whatever reason,.... you will never get to know them;.... you lose.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:23am PT
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Me thinks that Tod Gorden is a true saint.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 11, 2006 - 10:45am PT
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So Todd,
these indian kids in your class, did you teach them about paragraphs? lol
(Every time I see one of Todd's posts I feel I ought to put on some running shoes and hold a ruler to the screen...)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 11, 2006 - 11:39am PT
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Me is a teacher...I done learn kids to spoke....(Or is it me am a teacher...??)
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 11:58am PT
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Todd, thanks for clearing that logjam and sharing your experiences. I remember thinking how special it was when I learned you were teaching school up there and being close to those climbs on a daily basis.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 11, 2006 - 12:07pm PT
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"clearing that logjam"??
Todd's posts ARE logjams.lol
OK, OK, don't get in a huff.
Todd is the taco's stream of consciousness guru.
(either that or the cause of me checking out the reading glasses at the supermarket)
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:13pm PT
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Cintune
Thanks for that link to the Kauk eagle movie. I rigged on that movie for Kauk and never seen the movie till you put up that link.
It came out pretty cool.
The eagle was a trained bird and we actually got to have him perch on our arms at one point. Big bird it was.
Edit: By the way Standing Strong? Where anywhere in this Totem Pole thread did Todd ever mention you? I didn't see anything .....
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 11, 2006 - 02:22pm PT
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"todd, i know more than you think i know, you don't know anything about me, so leave me alone. and no, i don't feel the need to share anything more with you people."
This alone tells volumes about you-but hey, rather than just blow things off when you get vulnerable, why not fill us in about your very own self?? I'll deal with Todd . . .
JL
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 11, 2006 - 03:29pm PT
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I'm not trying to make enemies or piss people off......just share what I know about my experiences climbing and living on the Navajo (and Souix) Reservations. I had a blast climbing out there, and I know others who have as well. If you find this sort of stuff and adventures interesting, I say go for it. If you have a problem with climbing on the Res....I guess go somewhere else. Most of my experiences have been very good. I lived in the town of Lukachukai, between Monument Valley and The Tribal Loop. I knew most of the people in town, and I never talked to a single person who ever said anything negitive about my climbing on the Res. It didn't seem to bother anyone that I knew, saw , or met....and it sure kept me sane living out in the wild, wild west.....Sorry if I ruffled any feathers;.....I don't wish to be " The new ass-hole of the internet...".......(There seems to be enough competetion for that title anyways...)....I just wanted to learn about Native Americans other than from a book......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 04:42pm PT
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Todd,
First off, I have to second Ron's comment about the paragraphs. In a thread like this it isn't such a big deal, but in some of the other threads where you have significant climbing history to relate I think it's a shame to have such obviously valuable insight, history, and commentary so completely obscured by a lack of structure. It really is a complete pain in the ass to read. You can play the enigmatic rube all you want, but digesting your writing in this form is like eating applesauce with sand in it from a sharp edged can with no spoon. It's excellent applesauce, it just sucks getting it.
My wife is a member of the Sinixt Tribe which has been miraculously declared "extinct" in Canada and an enrolled member of the Colville Reservation in WA where I've spent some time. I've also lived with her history through our relationship and I can best describe her and others who have survived similar childhoods as remarkably "resilent". Most of us would likely not have survived let alone cling so fiercely to vibrancy and love in the face of it all.
As far as I'm concerned it's one thing giving of yourself and becoming an active member of a tribal community - that's cool and with that I should think comes a "pass" and your life and climbing became part of the tribe for that time. That's incredible of you to have given of yourself in such a manner, but that's entirely different than encouraging folks with no such vesting to simply drop in and poach. And I understand the whole issue of how debilitating it can be for some tribal communities or segments within them being isolated representing a sad and detrimental loss for all of us. I too wish people would vest more time getting to know these people and cultures and do it where they live.
But do your really think that would happen or would folks here just drop in anonymously as humanly possible and then bag and flee? It may be presumptious, but I'm pretty sure I know the answer up front. So to others who have never vested of themselves in such places I say poach away, but know it's just an extension of the same behaviors that for hundreds of years have driven Indians and Native cultures to the difficult circumstances many of them confront today.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 11, 2006 - 05:13pm PT
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Some will come and poach and run....maybe most....Maybe a Doctor, dentist, teacher, nurse, will come and stay....never know, do ya? I'm 51 years old, and have 3 children now;....those days on the res were some of the greatest adventures of my life;...I don't feel I stepped on too many toes to have them. This may sound callous, but if I piss a few Indians off....so what. Just let it be know, that in the 3 years I lived almost exclusively with native Americans,....a few Indians pissed me off too....being a minority means not always treated kindly, respectfully, and fairly. I'm not whining...just stating facts. I try not to mess with people on purpose, and if we were doing a climb where someone might get all bent (Tribal loop or Canyon de Chelly), we always went stealth , never brazen or in your face, and no one ever knew......the rest of the climbs went un-noticed because of their isolation, or went down with the knowldge and O K of the Navajos who lived nearby. Most Navajos I met knew someone I knew from Lukachukai,....a friend or relative;...I really felt a part of it all, and that I wasn't "tresspassing" or "out of line".... just poking around the res, like everyone else, ..doing my thing...like everyone else..It is really so bizarre and isolated out there, that oftentimes I knew in my brain that there was another world out there, but it didn't matter, because the world off the reservation almost didn't exist;.I would get so consumed by the present that nothing else DID exist or was real.... I try to live my life keeping in mind others beliefs and feelings, but still being true to my own nature, beliefs, and values. I'm sure I pissed WAY more Indians off at work than I EVER did out climbing....and I'm the good guy at work;...you know;...be a teacher; be a hero? For ever Navajo that I pissed off, I know in my head and heart, there are a whole hell of alot of Navajos who say that Todd Gordon guy is alright ...and a bunch of Navajo adults now a days who say they had one cool crazy 5th grade teacher back in the early 1980's..........
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ha-ha
climber
location
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:50pm PT
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Some will come and poach and run....maybe most....Maybe a Doctor, dentist, teacher, nurse, will come and stay....never know, do ya?
poetry.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 12, 2006 - 12:10pm PT
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I have a feeling that this thread would make good time capsule material.
Geologically speaking, the pole only has seconds to remain standing.
My bet is that wind flexing and/or seismic activity will turn the pole mostly into sand within two centuries.
Even with permission I wouldn't want to be on top in a strong wind.
What always gets me is the way climbers tend to fixate on the spectacular summits even despite the fact that what most nonclimbers don't "get" is that the point is usually to do a certain ROUTE in a certain WAY.
Desert climbers seem especially prone to this. Aside from IC very few have focused on the vast potential for summitless routes on wingate.
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