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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 8, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
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I am heading to the desert soon. Would love to do the totem pole. Bjornstad says its "5.11- (or C2)". Well if you do the C2 how hard is the rest? ie. what is the minimum free climbing grade to get up the thing? Anyone have a topo. :-)
Is this a trade route yet or still a dangerous obscurity.
muchas gracias
Michael
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Its probably only 5.9+, but the topo they have at the visitor center says .10b.
Make sure you bring triples in the 1"- 3" cams. And guns.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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There is definitely a couple fantastic 5.11 sections on the route. Definitely get out of the aiders if you can, BUT, like all good rez routes, the Totem Pole has gotten tougher and tougher to poach, as there are a lot more tours through the area. I wouldn't try it myself these days, though I got to climb it twice without much trouble back in the 80's.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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PRESS RELEASE FOR MORE INFORMATION
March 7, 2006 Martin L. Begaye, 928/871-6647
NO ROCK CLIMBING AT MONUMENT VALLEY
Recent stories have disseminated information that Monument Valley will soon be opened to rock climbing. The provider of this information states that they are working with the Navajo Nation to negotiate an agreement that will allow them to start rock climbing expeditions in conjunction with a local Navajo Tour Operator.
As of this date, the Navajo Parks and Recreation Department, the resource manager of Monument Valley Tribal Park, is not negotiating with any company with the intent of authorizing rock climbing in Monument Valley. There had been a similar proposal about two years ago from The Access Fund, a national rock climbing organization, but this proposal was not favorably received by the local residents. Ray Russell, Department Manager, stated that “this proposal will likely meet the same fate and we would not be open to any activity that would desecrate the sacred significance of the rock formations under our charge.” The company promoting this proposal was informed of this earlier attempt and they were advised that getting the residents’ support was a first step but the final decision lies with the Navajo Parks and Recreation Department.
It is possible that the company may be working with the tour operator to promote this venture but the Parks and Recreation Department has not been formally approached with a written proposal. It is unlikely that authorization will be given in light of the unfavorable publicity already generated by the premature announcement.
http://www.navajonationparks.org
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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You guys are 30 years too late. And even in the 70s you had to climb the Pole on the sly.
JL
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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What Jeremy said;
also, take one of those Navaho climbers along.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I don't believe the Access Fund has abandoned all hope of climbing in Monument Valley, but folks poaching Totem - especially since this issue is still current with the Tribal leadership and Parks Director - will do nothing to advance climbers' interests either with the Navajos or with other tribal and federal land managers who are now on the Internet. But if and when we can climb in these areas again, then climbing with the Navajos and helping some of their young climbers get AMGA-certified should be a BIG priority for the climbing community as Jaybro suggests...
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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"I do wonder what would happen if you got caught these days?"
If you get caught they will arrest you, take all your gear, and fine you. If you don't get caught expect a curse and some bad luck (seriously). I'm generally not superstitious, but don't mess with the Navajo.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Bow down to The Pole. There are so many other cool things to climb in the desert S W....the Pole is dicey at best. Climbing in the Tribal Loop and in Canyon de Chelly is dicey.....there is rock all over the place outside of these two areas.....just be cool, talk to any locals if you are driving or parking near their house or hogan, and have a great time. Climbing, hanging out, traveling, and adventures on the Res are awesome, and the Navajo people are 99.9% of the time cool with it. Unless you just HAVE to climb the Pole, you might want to pick something else out.......If ya GOT to do it, be stealth, don't get caught, bring some REALLY big pro for the wide section, and fix pitch 3 , or you won't get back to the stance on the way down......Bow down before the Pole.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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yeah Todd, when LB and I climbed the FA of one of the Yei Bei Chei's, a tour came through--a bunch of people on horses. We were near level with them (there's a big ditch between the horse path and the base of the route), and if any one of them had just looked over for a moment, they would have seen us, we were not more that 100 feet away. Luckily, for us, the scenery definitely draws the eye to the Pole (bow down!).
The head tour dude even doubled back, as if he sensed something, but he never looked over towards us. We were in plain sight, plastered on the cliff below a notch, with no where to hide.
The main trouble with the Totem Pole these days is that the Navajos have taken to touring the area behind the Totem Pole around the Yei Bei Chei's. Any body on the Bandito route would immediately be busted if one of those tours came though.
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WBraun
climber
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I did it twice too. Except the first time I didn't even climb it. Me and Kauk landed on top in a helicopter and just stepped out onto the summit. Hehehe
Second time Merry, Kauk, and me climbed it. Cool climb! WOW!
John did you see all those lightning scars on that thing?
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s. o.
Trad climber
academia
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The rumors are that if you are caught poaching climbs, canyons, or even hiking or camping on the Navajo Res they will take all of your stuff including gear and vehicles, fine you and send you on your way. I don't know from experience, but it doesn't sound worth it to me.
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feelio Babar
Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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If you don't get all your tires slashed, windows smashed, and cursed (no fuggin joke)......the skin walkers will getchya ass as soon as the sun goes down. Damn near impossible to climb it on the sly, you are in full view more or less the whole way. Show some respect.....or just pull a white man and keep crappin on the Navajo's beliefs. Whatever makes ya feel good.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Hi Werner-
I didn't notice the lightning strikes--wish I did! Sounds like it was a cool discovery.
I remember that film with Kauk and the eagle. It is one of my all time favorite climbing short films. Is there any way to see that one again? We need more inspiring movies like that one ...
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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"I remember that film with Kauk and the eagle. It is one of my all time favorite climbing short films. Is there any way to see that one again? We need more inspiring movies like that one ..."
This one?
http://www.climbing-area.info/photos/videos/klettern/long-movie/adler.wmv
Cool movie, crazy eagle. Pretty low-res version and cut short at the end, but still worth watching.
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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Hey Jeremy, what's up. Ask John and Eli what happened to them after they climbed it. Cursed man, big time. Let's get up in the Sandias sometime.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2006 - 11:54am PT
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Well, I'm an ignorant idiot. I didn't know there were two totem poles in Utah. One (ala Clint Eastwood - the one I had in my mind's eye) in Monument Valley - Navajo territory - and off limits. OK, cross that one off, don't want no bad juju (although I did do Ship Rock decades ago - clearly been suffering a curse ever since). But I am curious how hard was the real Totem Pole back in the day?
But in Canyonlands, in "Monument BASIN", there seems to be another, aka - Standing Rock (not to be confused with "Standing Rock 1" ??). That's the one in Bjonstad's book. 11- or C2. so that's what I'm asking about. Now I am confused which one the comments above are referring to.
Oh hey, I guess I could just go to Tasmania if I really want to climb a "Totem Pole" :-)
thanks and
carry on
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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I hope this doesn't offend anyone, as I'm really just trying to understand.
I've spent a lot of time in that area, photographing, as well as around/on other reservations in the country. The thing that always gets me is the squalor. What the hell do the Indians do with all of their money?
My day job is as the IT manager for a credit union, which houses the accounts for most of the tribal members of a nearby reservation. They make bank. I think we all know that by now. Most of us could only *hope* for that kind of income. Tax free, no less. Yet, they live in shacks and huts, literally. These things are on the verge of being a leanto, as they are so bad. My 4 season tent is better built then most of what I see. Where does all fo their money go? They have free land, tax free, assorted programs to help them with/give them all sorts of free services... Where does it all go? I think this thought came about as we are talking about the Navajos, who live the worst of any Indians I've seen. Yet, their casinos rake in more cash than most of the others.
Oh, and Damn! I'd love to climb the totem pole too! But Ship Rock... That thing draws me to it. It has such an incredible power and magnetism to it. It's a truly magnificant piece of stone!
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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Some may make a lot from the Casinos, but most do not. Yes, they do have opportunities to make their lives better, via free or reduced college tuition for example. The fact is they are different. They don't fit particularly well in the white man's world. Most of the time, I don't feel like I do either.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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But Nefarious, haven't you seen their pickups?
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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The Monument Basin Pole is mostly known as Standing Rock, not to be confused with the Monument Valley Pole, known as the Pole. Clear as mud, right?
Standing Rock is a blast. 5.10 corner system; serial 5.10 bulges in a groove system that blanks out for a bit (5.11 reach/dyno with bomber toprope protection); more bulges to the top. It was routinely aided for years so it takes pretty good gear, lots of offset nuts in the scars. The signature move: wobble up, underclinging underneath the bulge, until you can slap around for a flared jam, then mantle awkwardly over with head crammed beneath the next bulge. Repeat. This is the formation for which was coined the phrase "layers of Rye-Krisp held together with moistened kitty-litter." But it's cleaned up a lot since then.
The drive sucks, and has reportedly worsened with the recent all-time gullywashers of this fall. Best to check with the rangers about this. You'll be passing right by a number of other worthwhile erosional remnants-- Washer Woman and Monster Tower are the best-known-- so you might as well make the most of the beating you'll be putting on your partner's truck and climb some of those as well. The latter are Wingate, and climb much more 'normally' than the Cutler funk down in the Basin. I can't claim much more experience on the Cutler, but apparently some of the other Basin towers are pretty damn cool- the Meemohive comes to mind? Anyhow, allow a solid 3 hours from moab if you're proceeding directly to the Basin, most of which is fairly cruiser 2d or 3rd gear with intermittent crawling over ledges. In the ideal world, you'd sucker someone else into driving your gear while you enjoys the scenery from a bike.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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There's a lot of lightning around that area and the Pole is like a big ass lightning rod. Wouldn't want to be hanging about on that thing during a storm.
The one I really wanted to climb but never did is Shiprock. My original partner Richard Harrison bagged it, basically 3rd class, some time ago in just a few hours so a blitz ascent is possible but I have no idea about how legal this is.
JL
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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I've done a couple of the towers on the Navajo Res., including the Totem Pole in 1987. At the time I must admit I thought the poaching aspect added something to the experience that was very memorable. Of course, I was 26 years old in 1987.
Would I do it again? I don't know. Some of those formations beg to be climbed as much as anything, anywhere. But I do have some regrets. The Res. is as close to a third-world country as anything I've seen in the USA. Just remember, that some Navajos really do not want you there climbing on those towers. Not only are climbers trespassing, but perhaps dissing a people that have generally been treated very poorly by white men throughout our history.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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"Some may make a lot from the Casinos, but most do not."
Well, maybe that's true in NM, but in Cali it's not. At least not for the many casinos in this area. Again, remember, I see their checks, and I happen to know a few of them, whom I've asked some questions. They've been gracious enough to answer. Everyone who is a member of the tribe benefits, usually nicely, from the casinos. An average check seen in my bank is $15k for the month for a regular tribal member. When you know the size of the surrounding communities (very small) you know there's a lot more money elsewhere. But, since you mentioned it, yeah, free college, health care, no taxes... Just no taxes on my quite-a-bit-smaller-than-$15k-take-home would change my life for the better. Free health care? Fvck yeah! I'm doin'a small money dance then!
It's just really troubling driving through the res and seeing how poorly they live. And I'm not talking about the elders who live in Hogans, or whatever. I'm talking living in twigs, with trash all over, etc. Just flat out dirty. It's comparable to the poorest people I saw in Egypt and Thailand who live in what equates to a carport, with a dividing wall down the center to keep their livestock in the other half. The difference is, those people were actually really poor. Seems to be much more of a choice here. Saddening.
"But Nefarious, haven't you seen their pickups?"
Lol! I actually was thinking about a group I saw roll out of a flashy new Navigator, a week or so ago, while I wrote the original message. Too funny!
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Nefarius,
If I understand you correctly, a person would choose to live in squalor when there is nothing that compels them to do so??
Come on . . . you've apparently traveled in poor places. Do you think if you gave a poor person in Cairo $15,000 they would spend it in a way that makes a long term improvement in their life? Maybe a few would, but I think most would spend it in a way that brings immediate comforts and material objects that are more tangible. . not necessarily the kind of things that would create an improvement in one's life five or ten years down the road.
Poverty creates a certain way of thinking. I've experienced it abroad, and I'm pretty sure I've experienced it on more than one reservation. In addition to the poverty mindset, many native cultures suffer from chronic alcoholism, and and a sense of inferiority from getting treated like crap for generations by the dominant white culture.
I think this way of thinking is rooted in a certain lack of self esteem.
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Ouch!
climber
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Is this the Totem Pole?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Seemingly, you completely misunderstood my post.
No, not saying a person (or all persons in general as it is posed) choose, or would choose, to live in poverty. I was simply asking questions because it does appear that plenty of folks on reservations choose to do so. Thus the paradox I posed by saying that the people in the third world countries I have visited live in squalor by no choice of their own.
Since we're using my Cairo/Egypt example... Here's the huge difference. The people living in the conditions I described there got up, travelled a great distance into Cairo each morning and worked hard to earn the little bit they have.
I believe that the majority of the people in places like Cairo, Thailand, etc. lives would be changed drastically with $15k. They have a desire to have a good home and take care of their families, etc. You have to remember we're talking about people who bust their ass for $250 USD per year. And those are the lucky few who manage to get government jobs and the like. In Cairo, that was *good* pay. Many bust their ass to survive on much less.
Whereas, from what I've witnessed on reservations and witnessed incomes as being shows that they choose to live the way they do. If foreign countries got half the aid, per capita, that folks on the reservations got those countries would be drastically different places.
I'd definitely agree that self-esteem is the big part of the puzzle. With Indians having been so far out of the loop for so long (segregated from the rest of the world), however, I don't see it as having much to do with you or I or the distant past either. At some point, it really has nothing to do with us, at all, and comes down to personal responsibility and choice. I was just simply asking questions about these observations and noting that it's a sad thing/life.
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Ouch!
climber
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The worst thing that ever happened to the American Indian was the reservation.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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I'd agree with that, Ouch!.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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BTW, there's no casinos on the Navajo rez.
It really is a matter of respect. It IS trespassing.
Of the dozen or so FAs of towers I climbed on the Navajo Reservation, a majority I got to know the local residents and talked to them about climbing nearby. Picking up hitchhikers was a major "in" for me, but it was only over a period of years and years, that I picked up the right folks (who lived near a tower). Each climb on average required four or five reconnasance trips to the area prior to the actual ascent. In other words, patience is the key to seamless climbing on the rez. Yahoos, or people who think they have a "right" to climb there, need not apply.
Saying that, there are no hogans or residents near Agathala, and it is outside the Tribal Park, I believe. The route is 5.7 and stellar, but don't be fooled by the rating, it is an unbelievably wild adventure. You will need an assistant to drive your car...
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Kartch
climber
belgrade, mt
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I practically grew up on the rez. There were more natives than anglo's in my school (ute and navajo) I never understood it myself.
The peeps on the rez get a lot of aid but most never take advantage of it. They usually spend it on alcohol and FAS is/was a big problem.
There may also be an issue with leaving sacred lands. Some of the natives I grew up with had some great vision. They got a good education and frequently go back to the rez to help their people (the Dine or phonetically din-A).
On another note I'm tired of people saying the white man is the root of all the problems for the natives. That somehow the Natives would have been better off if we left them in peace. The native tribes were never in peace. The Navajo took the land from the Hopi. The Ute took some from the Navajo and Hopi. Ute and Navajo still fight. Their history is a history of war for the best land. Just like it is for the Anglo's.
(good thing I'm leaving work; I won't be able to read the backlash for that comment!)
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Thanks to Citune for posting the link to that movie, too! Cool!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Well said, Deuce.
The navajos are currently building casinos. Started this year. Also, the other tribes do have them and profit heavily from them.
"You will need an assistant to drive your car... "
This sounds rather interesting... LIke a fun adventure for sure. If it's outside the tribal park why would you need an assistant to drive your car? Is it still illegal?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Yeah, thanks for the link Cin. I would like to see the full tv size version.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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I've traveled on the Tribal Loop many times ....where the Totem Pole is......The Tribal Loop people collect money from you just so you can drive your car on that dusty, bumpy dirt road. It cost $ to camp there.... you can buy souvenirs there....more $...and once on the loop, you can visit a hogan (costs money), and see a fake Navajo wedding (costs money)....then further on down the road, some dirty kids come out of their mud hogan to sell you come beads or sand paintings ( $)...and if you wish to take their picture..(they ARE cute...)... well... you guessed it.......more money.......Soon;. the casinos....already been coal mining and cranking out uranium for decades... cutting timber all over the place south of Canyon de Chelly........Hollywood has enough money to buy out any sacred lands or areas......but poor climbers;......just not quite profitable enough to pull it off.....maybe if one of the Kennedys wanted to climb the Pole?....maybe Brad Pitt and Angelina?..........(If ya got to do The Pole.... well;...go do it , man....). I lived and worked on the Res for 2 years;.....I know that if you are cool, friendly, and psyched ......it's hardly ever a problem to climb on the Res...Don't be afraid of Indians....... BUT... The Pole....well;.... that's a different story......be sly, don't get caught, bring some super big pro for the wide section..(We used large friends stacked with cut 2 by fours!)...and fix the last pitch or you will never get back to the belay!)... Bow down before the Pole!
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:07am PT
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This is an excellent thread. Nothing like intelligent dialogue.
Ship Rock wasn't difficult to do because of its relatively remote location. Fun climb! Make sure you have a good topo and hide your vehicle well (or line up a subman). Route finding can be tricky for the inexperienced because it winds around a bit.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:12am PT
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I remember Kauk having all four tires slashed and all his windows smashed by the Indians for climbing in a forbidden area out there once.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:24am PT
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Probably just pissed off teenagers. Bummer.
Aside from the Pole, Spyder Rock is still one of the prized formations, isn't it? And I mean no disrespect. I know it is sacred to the tribes.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:52am PT
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Shiprock is awesome, and you can hide your car in a ravine so nobody will hopefully mess with it.......The start is easy to find... starts out of a cave.(5.9)...then 4th class...THEN up and left.....and some off route pitons to lure you right...don't go........(It's been awhile..)...once at the notch....it's the raps, the traverse, the 4th class section,.. then up the edge to the top....great fun, awesome summit, and don't be scared of Indians.....Bow down before Shiprock. Spyder Rock was freed by The Late (Still so sad over this...) Todd Skinner....at 5.10++.......Hike down the Bat Trail (Prefered) or rap from the overlook...(lame, goes through sticker bushes, and has bad bolts..and is overhanging through the air... WAY hard to jumar back out when you are pooped and have a heavy pack..)...6 pitches.......pitch one 5.9 groove to 5.8 squeeze pitch two 5.10 hands/O W to 5.10 chinmey/squeeze (Anchor fixed chock and Fp) Pitch three 5.9- chinmey to three bolts to 5.10 steep finger/hand (Belay at a horn in a cave) Pitch 4 5.9/5.10 OW and Chimney with old bolts for pro. Pitch five crawl through a hole (rotten rock) to 5.10 O W ....poor rock on this pitch....to 5.10 squeeze slot. Pitch 6 5.10+ Ow protected by old bolts ......traverse left (exposed) and up to summit!. 3 sets of cams, some larger cams, large nuts, and lots of slings and biners. 5.10 A2 or 5.10++ This climb is illigal. If you climb this Spyder Rock, the Spyder Woman will get you and eat you and spit out your bones ... you can see all the bones of the dead climbers on the summit even from the parking lot. Honkey Rangers will chase you down too, and throw the book at you... you will end up in Federal Court with big fines, jail sentence, a cell-mate named Marv the Molester, and all your gear taken away and given to some flunky Ranger who is on SAR somewhere in the Park Service System. The Navajo Indians will hate you, George Bush will hate you, and you will get sick and have flu-like illness for months. You will be laughed at when you visit your local gym and it will be very difficult to get laid. Coffee will taste funny to you and you will soon quit your job and start watching alot of day-time T V (This happened to Warren Harding.....).......Is it all worth it?.....It's up to you... Afterall...it IS The one and only Spyder Rock......the fearsome Spyder Rock.....
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:56am PT
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Yep, that's the same curse description I heard.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:59am PT
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Did I mention diarrehea too?...(the spyder Woman Curse...)
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Nov 10, 2006 - 12:51pm PT
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In his book "Postcards from the TRailor Park" by Cameron Burns, he has a story in there about goign to do shiprock. He shows alot of merit and respect with his actions. There is also this site, " http://wwwright.com/climbing/tripreports/2002/Shiprock.htm that talks about climbing shiprock.
Just thought this info might help
Jesse
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 10, 2006 - 01:44pm PT
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Hi Jesse,
yeah, good thread. The Ouch pic was one of his best.
I think that if the Navaho could produce some decent guides that they could make a respectable income from guiding routes on their land.
It would require a change in the climbing culture where most people want to do their own thing to where submitting to a guide's supervision in order to obtain the privilege to experience some unique and fragile resources (not to mention expense) is deemed acceptable.
But it COULD work.
Let's not make the mistake of assuming that the res is public property.
(And before somebody accuses me of trying to turn climbing into a "rich man's sport" let me remind you, it already IS.)
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
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Speaking of climbing as a "rich man's sport", I went to boulder last weekend to hang out with hopes of finding some partners while my Girlfriend was taking a medical class. I thought this would be easy after all the stories of boulder being a climbing Mecca. I was shocked at the rude attitude of most of the climbers, and astonished by the sheer volume of gear that they had. Beginning climbers had two full sets of cams with all sorts of specialty equipment. It was only on the last day, after Friday and Saturday of asking around, that a group of climbers let me join them. I have never been so angry at a climbing community. Granted this doesn't go for all climbers in boulder. I just seemed ridiculous that out of 10 or more parties that I asked, only one let me crag with them. It makes me Appreciate Grand Junction because the climbing community is small and tight, as well as you never find other people out climbing.
Sorry for the rant.
Tribal Politics have always baffled me. Going to school in Durango, CO where every person who had a little smidgen of Indian blood was allowed full ride scholarships, yet the graduating percentage are below 50%. I guess Fort lewis college (durango) was making up for bad blood seeing as they were a Christian Indian boarding house.
Jesse.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 10, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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Maybe the nine that turned you down did you a favor.
Its nice being comfortable soloing.
Too many anecdotes about lax safety practices among current climbers for me to beg belays blindly.
Besides Jesse, you live on the side of the divide where you can climb AWAY from the crowds.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 10, 2006 - 04:13pm PT
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We've been round and round on this topic the last time it came up. The misinformation, bias, and ample prejudice evidenced every time an Indian topic is breached is lamentable in and of itself. But it just plain blows that folks would encourage other climbers to poach such climbs in the face of long standing efforts by groups like the AF and others to come to some understanding with various tribes around the country. There is plenty of good rock available without the baggage involved with such stone. That some folks still can't muster a shred of respect for tribal rights, histories, and legacies is a real commentary of cluelessness and one that speaks volumes more about us than Native peoples and culture.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:19am PT
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Ya just don't get it...the reason I encourage people to visit and climb on the Res is BECAUSE of the Navajo people. Yes; I " poached" climbs on the Reservation (If that is a term you feel comfortable with..). I also did some other stuff there too;....none of which I would have ever experienced if I hadn't gone there "poaching" in the first place. I lived in a mud hogan for 1 whle year, I played the piano and directed a choir for a whole communitie's Christmas program, I visited a 19 year old girl in the hospital who had been shot in the back by some white farmboy because he didn't like her stealing his car battery, I got my bicycle stolen, I had my house broken into countless times, I heald newborn babies of teenage girls, I picked drunk grannies out of the dirt, I had people visit my home every hour of the night begging for money for booze, I taught my Navajo friend Henry how to ice climb and jumar, I went to dozens of ceremonies where I was the only white person, I wrecked 3 cars on the res, I saw dead bodies in the street that had been thrown from speeding cars, I took children to the hospital for malnuturishment , I "adopted" 7 skinny dogs and fed them everyday, I spent most all of my paycheck on the res and supported local businesses, I invited large Navajo families to visit my parents in San Diego, I helped Indians whose cars were broken or stuck in a ditch, I held a 5th grade boy in my arms who had passed out from sniffing paint (He was in my class), I cried when I heard on of my students was killed with a 2 by 4, I partied with my Indain friends, I went on a climbing roadtrip to Joshua Tree with one of my Navajo buddies, I talked friends out of suiside, I got called every slanderous name a white person could ever be called on a res, I got threated with my life, I was ready to defend myself to the death, I drove in a car over 125 mph with a drunk Indian at the wheel, I moved away from my family and friends who I loved dearly to have a great adventure and make a difference in some Indian's lives, I learned from my classroon aid Maryjane that you don't need to have a college degree or travel to Europe to have a full and complete life, I cried because I was lonesome/scared/cold/afraid....and I cried because I was happy, proud/brave/alive......I played alot of basketball with my Navajo bros, I broke up fights and got into fights, I visited the priest and always had a cigarette with him (He was in a wheelchair from a random driveby shooting), I gave out Halloween candy to little Navajo kids who came to my door all wet from the cold rain/snow on Halloween, I sh#t in an cold outhouse for 1 year that was I shared with 2 other Navajo families (Alot of piss on the seat...), I met people who 20 years later I still consider my best friends, I saw beautiful sunsets, and sparkly snowy mornings, I heard the wind howl like demons possessed and encouraged my Navajo friend to go jogging and run in 10 K races,...I went months with out getting laid (and even got laid once or twice...),....and I knocked on strangers doors and asked them if I could park my car near their houses and hogans while I climbed... and they were facinated by my climbs, and they watched me climb all day (and often into the night), and always invited me into their homes , and once when it got dark, they drove their pickup trucks over to shine the light on the rocks for me when I rappelled in the dark, ...and I got bite by dogs hiking to do climbs, and I got stuck in snow, mud, sand, and brush getting to climbs........basically;...I had the time of my life.......f*#k yeah;...I encourage others to have similar wild adventures that you cannot have other places........like Lance says;...it's not about the bike......and it's not just about the climbing. Those who choose not to climb on the res for whatever reason;...so be it. Please don't lay any guilt trip on others;....for you will discourage them from one of the greatest adventures in N. America....and as for me;.... the finger pointers don't know me or probably don't know anything about living on an Indian Reservation, climbing on an Indian Reservation, or that we (The Indians and us "rich white folk") actually can hang together and be respectful, kind, loving, giving, sharing...and even climb together. As for the illigal nature;.....those of you who have never broke the law, please throw the first stone. Remember that 99.9% of Navajos don't have a clue that it's illigal to climb on the res, and 99.9% could give a rats ass about most rules and laws anyways....Most Navajos I know (which is alot) knew I climb, thought it was cool and wild and exciting and inspiring and facinating...(Which it is...)....Make up your own mind, and hopefully you have an open mind....and a kind, caring, loving one too for a facinating and wonderful group of people, The Navajo, .....who you can be fortunate enough to experience and learn from if you just have the sac to go for it and let it happen. If you fear the Indians or have your adventures elsewhere for whatever reason,.... you will never get to know them;.... you lose.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:23am PT
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Me thinks that Tod Gorden is a true saint.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 11, 2006 - 10:45am PT
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So Todd,
these indian kids in your class, did you teach them about paragraphs? lol
(Every time I see one of Todd's posts I feel I ought to put on some running shoes and hold a ruler to the screen...)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 11, 2006 - 11:39am PT
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Me is a teacher...I done learn kids to spoke....(Or is it me am a teacher...??)
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 11:58am PT
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Todd, thanks for clearing that logjam and sharing your experiences. I remember thinking how special it was when I learned you were teaching school up there and being close to those climbs on a daily basis.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 11, 2006 - 12:07pm PT
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"clearing that logjam"??
Todd's posts ARE logjams.lol
OK, OK, don't get in a huff.
Todd is the taco's stream of consciousness guru.
(either that or the cause of me checking out the reading glasses at the supermarket)
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:13pm PT
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Cintune
Thanks for that link to the Kauk eagle movie. I rigged on that movie for Kauk and never seen the movie till you put up that link.
It came out pretty cool.
The eagle was a trained bird and we actually got to have him perch on our arms at one point. Big bird it was.
Edit: By the way Standing Strong? Where anywhere in this Totem Pole thread did Todd ever mention you? I didn't see anything .....
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 11, 2006 - 02:22pm PT
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"todd, i know more than you think i know, you don't know anything about me, so leave me alone. and no, i don't feel the need to share anything more with you people."
This alone tells volumes about you-but hey, rather than just blow things off when you get vulnerable, why not fill us in about your very own self?? I'll deal with Todd . . .
JL
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 11, 2006 - 03:29pm PT
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I'm not trying to make enemies or piss people off......just share what I know about my experiences climbing and living on the Navajo (and Souix) Reservations. I had a blast climbing out there, and I know others who have as well. If you find this sort of stuff and adventures interesting, I say go for it. If you have a problem with climbing on the Res....I guess go somewhere else. Most of my experiences have been very good. I lived in the town of Lukachukai, between Monument Valley and The Tribal Loop. I knew most of the people in town, and I never talked to a single person who ever said anything negitive about my climbing on the Res. It didn't seem to bother anyone that I knew, saw , or met....and it sure kept me sane living out in the wild, wild west.....Sorry if I ruffled any feathers;.....I don't wish to be " The new ass-hole of the internet...".......(There seems to be enough competetion for that title anyways...)....I just wanted to learn about Native Americans other than from a book......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 04:42pm PT
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Todd,
First off, I have to second Ron's comment about the paragraphs. In a thread like this it isn't such a big deal, but in some of the other threads where you have significant climbing history to relate I think it's a shame to have such obviously valuable insight, history, and commentary so completely obscured by a lack of structure. It really is a complete pain in the ass to read. You can play the enigmatic rube all you want, but digesting your writing in this form is like eating applesauce with sand in it from a sharp edged can with no spoon. It's excellent applesauce, it just sucks getting it.
My wife is a member of the Sinixt Tribe which has been miraculously declared "extinct" in Canada and an enrolled member of the Colville Reservation in WA where I've spent some time. I've also lived with her history through our relationship and I can best describe her and others who have survived similar childhoods as remarkably "resilent". Most of us would likely not have survived let alone cling so fiercely to vibrancy and love in the face of it all.
As far as I'm concerned it's one thing giving of yourself and becoming an active member of a tribal community - that's cool and with that I should think comes a "pass" and your life and climbing became part of the tribe for that time. That's incredible of you to have given of yourself in such a manner, but that's entirely different than encouraging folks with no such vesting to simply drop in and poach. And I understand the whole issue of how debilitating it can be for some tribal communities or segments within them being isolated representing a sad and detrimental loss for all of us. I too wish people would vest more time getting to know these people and cultures and do it where they live.
But do your really think that would happen or would folks here just drop in anonymously as humanly possible and then bag and flee? It may be presumptious, but I'm pretty sure I know the answer up front. So to others who have never vested of themselves in such places I say poach away, but know it's just an extension of the same behaviors that for hundreds of years have driven Indians and Native cultures to the difficult circumstances many of them confront today.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 11, 2006 - 05:13pm PT
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Some will come and poach and run....maybe most....Maybe a Doctor, dentist, teacher, nurse, will come and stay....never know, do ya? I'm 51 years old, and have 3 children now;....those days on the res were some of the greatest adventures of my life;...I don't feel I stepped on too many toes to have them. This may sound callous, but if I piss a few Indians off....so what. Just let it be know, that in the 3 years I lived almost exclusively with native Americans,....a few Indians pissed me off too....being a minority means not always treated kindly, respectfully, and fairly. I'm not whining...just stating facts. I try not to mess with people on purpose, and if we were doing a climb where someone might get all bent (Tribal loop or Canyon de Chelly), we always went stealth , never brazen or in your face, and no one ever knew......the rest of the climbs went un-noticed because of their isolation, or went down with the knowldge and O K of the Navajos who lived nearby. Most Navajos I met knew someone I knew from Lukachukai,....a friend or relative;...I really felt a part of it all, and that I wasn't "tresspassing" or "out of line".... just poking around the res, like everyone else, ..doing my thing...like everyone else..It is really so bizarre and isolated out there, that oftentimes I knew in my brain that there was another world out there, but it didn't matter, because the world off the reservation almost didn't exist;.I would get so consumed by the present that nothing else DID exist or was real.... I try to live my life keeping in mind others beliefs and feelings, but still being true to my own nature, beliefs, and values. I'm sure I pissed WAY more Indians off at work than I EVER did out climbing....and I'm the good guy at work;...you know;...be a teacher; be a hero? For ever Navajo that I pissed off, I know in my head and heart, there are a whole hell of alot of Navajos who say that Todd Gordon guy is alright ...and a bunch of Navajo adults now a days who say they had one cool crazy 5th grade teacher back in the early 1980's..........
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ha-ha
climber
location
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:50pm PT
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Some will come and poach and run....maybe most....Maybe a Doctor, dentist, teacher, nurse, will come and stay....never know, do ya?
poetry.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 12, 2006 - 12:10pm PT
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I have a feeling that this thread would make good time capsule material.
Geologically speaking, the pole only has seconds to remain standing.
My bet is that wind flexing and/or seismic activity will turn the pole mostly into sand within two centuries.
Even with permission I wouldn't want to be on top in a strong wind.
What always gets me is the way climbers tend to fixate on the spectacular summits even despite the fact that what most nonclimbers don't "get" is that the point is usually to do a certain ROUTE in a certain WAY.
Desert climbers seem especially prone to this. Aside from IC very few have focused on the vast potential for summitless routes on wingate.
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10b4me
Trad climber
California
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Nov 12, 2006 - 12:56pm PT
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I think this thought came about as we are talking about the Navajos, who live the worst of any Indians I've seen. Yet, their casinos rake in more cash than most of the others.
Haven't been on the Navajo rez in a couple of years, but I don't think they have casinos.
The worst thing that ever happened to the American Indian was the reservation.
no, the worst thing to happen to the American Indian was the white man.
Todd, haven't always agreed with what you post, but I have great respect for what you did while on the rez.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 13, 2006 - 11:23am PT
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Yep. Gone pecan.
Locker, Standing Strong basically stated that she disrespects the climbers (no matter who they are) who climb illegally on the Res. A valid point albeit a bit less articulate than Joe's posts. I'm not sure why she bailed. Maybe it was Kofi's hilarious depiction.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 13, 2006 - 03:20pm PT
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I tried to coax her back to get the full lowdown but verily, something musty have really ticked her off and she be gone. So it goes . . . I do respect Todd's perspective since he's the only one of us who lived out there in the thick of it.
JL
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Nov 17, 2006 - 03:08pm PT
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ADK
climber
truckee
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Nov 17, 2006 - 06:42pm PT
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very cool thread and film. I really miss the desert. How many routes are there on the navajo totem pole and what are the ratings?
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| Messages 1 - 65 of total 65 in this topic |
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SuperTopo on the Web
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the one in Monument Valley, on the Navajo Reservation?
Let us know!