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JAK
climber
The Souf
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Oct 26, 2006 - 05:20pm PT
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No idea who might sling cams...... (waiting for the light bulb to at least flicker)
What...
you mean like...
Yates?
(sorry, couldn't resist)
Another question from another topic for you Fish, but while I've got hold of you here:
Saw that bit about Verm blowing a dyneema sling under body weight and been thinkin' about a better way to girth hitch. Correct me if I'm wrong but:
assumptions:
 Omega Pacific Aluminum rap rings are cheap ($2.95 retail) and have a breaking strength of 20kN.
These same rap rings have that breaking strength omni-directionally yes? After all, they're circles.
Conclusion:
Therefore, if one could thread some 9/16ths nylon through an OmegaPac (or anyone else who's stuff is of assured quality and high enough strength) rap ring and bartack it closed into a standard sling, wouldn't you end up with a sling that would be girth hitch maintaining the "soft on hard only" principle and was not crossloading a biner?
I realize the thought of "just attach one end to your harness with a 'biner dumbass" is crossing your mind, but I'm thinking beyond that and into slinging natural protection on routes. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but using a sling in this manner with a standard 'biner results in a three way load, correct?
Just throwing that out there. Thoughts? Also, if you steal my idea and patent the brand new FISH GirthSafe Runner, can I at least have a few freebies?
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Oct 26, 2006 - 05:21pm PT
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I resling anything that looks a little FISHy.
-Kate.
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creetur
climber
CA
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Oct 26, 2006 - 05:24pm PT
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Question: I have two ropes, one dry, one non-dry, that I've had for about 3.5 years--one has barely been used and never seen a lead fall, and one has seen only a couple of minor lead falls and, because grad school intervened, hasn't seen that much use either.
I keep my ropes in my "laundry room" with the washer and dryer, and when I dry clothes it gets really, really steamy in there (it's tiny). I've wondered for a little while now if this prolonged exposure to steam (though both are in ropebags) is having an effect on their integrity. I am going to move them, but wonder now if I should just trash them. They look like they're in perfect shape.
Opinions?
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Oct 26, 2006 - 05:28pm PT
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When adding a new sling to some rap stations I'll take and keep one of the old mangy faded rotten looking ones. I pieced these old slings together to make a tow rope for my car and to tow others cars. The old slings took tremendous towing abuse without breaking: ie the rear driver letting slack build up and then suddenly coming on line. Many tows later one severe jolt did cause a break.
The belay loop should not have broken when rapping even if it was extremely old and worn.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Oct 26, 2006 - 05:31pm PT
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Anyone out there offering a sewn reslinging service for cams and such?
A friend of mine recommended some guy out near JT named Wuss Ralling. Or something like that.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 26, 2006 - 05:35pm PT
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I have a few questions about a few things that some of you might have experience w/...
1. When ropes are tested to failure, is there typically an evident core shot or other visible dammage appearing before the fall that actually makes the rope break?
2. Do static materials like slings and harnesses experience a similar decrease in strength when catching repeated falls? Any data on this?
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 26, 2006 - 05:41pm PT
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FATTRAD:
Try Yates they do it(as quoted by FISH). Sounds like I will be working out some details on my end and perhaps myself or those near me will offer service soon...
I'm not trolling for business, but I suspect there are many people right now wanting to resling and have limited options.
I think most manufacturers do not offer the service because there is little money in it and an attached liability of touching "used gear".
Really is more of a service than a cash cow.
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JAK
climber
The Souf
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Oct 26, 2006 - 05:42pm PT
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1. When ropes are tested to failure, is there typically an evident core shot or other visible dammage appearing before the fall that actually makes the rope break?
UIAA fall test is to rope *breakage*. If there's an obvious coreshot, I've got money saying the next droptest is the big winner, but I'm sure they do it anyway, because up until everything seperates, the rope ain't done broked!
2. Do static materials like slings and harnesses experience a similar decrease in strength when catching repeated falls? Any data on this?
All nylon loses strength and (in the case of dynamic ropes) dynamic qualities with age. Wear and tear seems to speed this process, though we're still talking small enough percentages that you *should* retire them long before it's a threat. Follow manufacturer retirement guidelines, and like GJ has been saying, inspect yer friggin' gear before usin' it people.
So help this idiot out. I've got some twenty year old friends and tcu's that should get some new sling. Send them to Fish?
You could, but I'm with graniteclimber - this Wuss Ralling guy does fantastic work. Better to look him up instead.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Oct 26, 2006 - 05:45pm PT
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I don't think I've ever rapped only tied (binered) into my belay loop.
I use a oversized BD locking biner laced through the loop on my harness that the belay loop runs through, AND the span of load bearing webbing attatching my leg lopps together.
I don't remmeber ever doing it differently.
Not only do I get a comfortable ride I am tied into two places on my harness. I don't believe this cross loads the biner.
My wife has told me enough times that I have actually been using a prussik back up lately. May be the most important 20 seconds of rigging I ever do.
None the less, I have been saying I need a new harness for a couple of years now. Mine is at least 10 yrs old.
I'll get another one today.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 26, 2006 - 05:46pm PT
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JAK...I understand that they test the ropes till they break. What I'd like to know is if they can usually tell visually when the next one will be the final blow...Since as a user, it's good to think that you get some kind of warning before the rope blows apart as counting factor 2 falls isn't very relevant for my use patterns.
I also understand that old harnesses need to be retired. My question is to what degree does catching a sh#t load of high force falls decrease the strength of nylon goods, and if it does, is the reduction visible.
The "looks like crap" test is good for getting rid of stuff that you can see is screwed up, but to what degree does physical stress cause invisible dammage?
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 26, 2006 - 05:54pm PT
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Melissa,
If you hear of "the rope (or webbing) was perfect, I ran it through my hands and know its history as perfect and mild, but it suddenly broke under body weight." It is almost prdictable that sulfuric acid is in the story somewhere.
Rope Test: Oh yeah, they SCREAM no more! A blind man with no fingers could figure this out before it breaks. -Remember most rope failures are cuts from running over edges or the frightening "Saw" of juggin up a rope that is rubbing something... Yikes!
Webbing is also not one that likes to surprise the user. How stiff is that baby? Is the weaving oppening up? Failed fibers in the knot that is produced in the loom can show fibers oppening up running lengthwise... That is bad.
Melissa, the great thing about our gear is it is primitive, not much rocket science involved. I know there are many exciting adjectives we use, but pick up a cam, or a stopper... We are talking basic mechanics. We wedge things in the rock, clip bolts (made for concrete). We need flexible links (runners etc), and a soft cord for the fall.
Just pay attention and take care of the gear. Have a question, contact the manufacturer. They want you alive and spending money.
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JAK
climber
The Souf
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Oct 26, 2006 - 05:58pm PT
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JAK...I understand that they test the ropes till they break. What I'd like to know is if they can usually tell visually when the next one will be the final blow...Since as a user, it's good to think that you get some kind of warning before the rope blows apart as counting factor 2 falls isn't very relevant for my use patterns.
I wouldn't think so most of the time. FWIAO, core shots in the wild typically occur from cutting or other fiber-seperating damage, not tensile stess. I think you're much more likely to find flat or dead spots in the rope before the "fatal" drop. It seems extremely unlikely to me (using my statistically verified Common Sense Approach™) that a force powerful enough to cause the sheath to seperate and the core to explode out of it wouldn't just rip the rope in half to begin with.
Note of editation after reading Ghoul's post: I have been wrong before.
I also understand that old harnesses need to be retired. My question is to what degree does catching a sh#t load of high force falls decrease the strength of nylon goods, and if it does, is the reduction visible.
My point is that it shouldn't matter - the stuff should be well retired before then.
i.e., if you use the slings almost daily, get rid of them after six months just like BD or whoever says. There's no question in my mind that their recommendations on retirement are extremely conservative, so if you follow them, you're in the safe zone and exactly how far into it you are is a moot point.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 26, 2006 - 06:08pm PT
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Manufacturers recommendations are all well and good when you're talking about your own gear, but most of us spend a fair bit of time trusting our arse to others' gear where all we have to go on is their word and our visual inspection.
And I know that if I expected my parnters to only climb on 6 month old quickies (or so they say...), I'd either be lonely or be taking out a lot of beginners.
FWIW, by "core shot" I meant any kind of visible damage to the core...whether you can actually see the whites of it or not. Sorry if this isn't the standard.
In any case, I have my own sense of common sense w/ these things and usually don't worry, but would be curious to see the DATA or direct observations from those who have done these tests. (I'm afraid I don't understand about the SCREAM?) In the last year I've heard of several cases of gear failing that couldn't necessarily be picked out as defective based on visual inspection, tell tale dimple aside. ;-)
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mike hartley
climber
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Oct 26, 2006 - 06:11pm PT
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Please forgive my sarcasm but I have to admit that all of this talk about “hey lets test some old ropes and harnesses” makes me chuckle. There has been tons of testing of old nylon gear, with much of it being publicly reported. I’m certainly not the end-all source as I’m probably only familiar with a fraction of it (Robertson, Misty Mtn, BlueWater, AMGA, my own, etc) and Russ would have way more knowledge than I. For what its worth here’s a small bit what I’ve seen that’s relevant to this discussion.
Properly stored (static) nylon components lose little strength over time. Age doesn’t seem to be a big factor. Wear is. Abrasion on webbing and small diameter cord substantially weakens the product. This seems to be true long before the piece would be characterized as “ratty”. Dynamic ropes do seem to lose their ability to absorb high-load impact over time (~5 years) but are still way strong enough for top-roping at almost any age.
Kate mentioned faded, sun-bleached webbing. I’ve tested quite a bit of 1” tubular nylon. The last batch I tested had no abrasion at all but had been left continuously outside for a year and was noticeably stiff and brittle. There was no color left at all to the exposed areas; it was bone-white. Most pieces broke mid-span (single strand) at 2500 lbs. One strand broke at an overhand knot at 1632. Those still aren’t bad numbers for single strands with overhand knots.
Acid, whether it comes from your bladder or otherwise, isn’t good for nylon.
For just one example of “real-world” testing that’s been done look up the AMGA’s Mountain Bulletin Vol. XVI, No. 4, 2003.
Manufacturing errors do occur, though thankfully they are rare. Still I’ve seen numerous brand new ropes with herniated cores, 11mm ropes that failed at 1000 lbs, and ropes where if you took tension on a top-rope 20’ in the air you’d hit the ground HARD from the rope stretch. My wife broke her tailbone on one of those and it was verified by the manufacturer as being faulty. Defects happen and there’s only so much you can do about it. Redundancy helps but you can probably kill yourself quicker with overly complex systems than from a manufacturing defect.
We have no idea what ultimately lead to Todd’s death. I for one cannot believe the speculation that it was simply a matter of a worn belay loop breaking under body weight. I’ve seen too much testing of webbing recovered from rap anchors that was faded and torn halfway through that still held 1000 lbs. IF the loop broke I’m betting a combo of abrasion, chemical degradation, possible friction on the brake rope, with a little defect thrown in. I doubt that we’ll ever really know.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Oct 26, 2006 - 06:13pm PT
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JAK: You are making my head spin..... As Werner once said, "just go the fuk climbing and quit worrying about this shiit"
Worried about girthing? If so use biners, two opposed.... the rap-ring thing is something like the "anal rententive Chef" would do from Sat. Night Live. Side note: the small diameter of the ring might in fact make the absolute strength of the runner LESS than if you just girth hitched them together. Trying to be extra safe may have just got you killed.
Hard and fast rules:
NO webbing to cable in any situation.
NO non-nylon webbing in girthhitches (and even nylon takes a #bs drop)
NO short tails on any knots
NO rapping on that 5.5mm kevlar stuff
NO edges for any of it
NO using really crappy looking stuff
NO car batteries near your junk
What I do:
Girth hitch nylon slings all the time
Use a daisy chain
Use a 6 year old harness
Tape up core shots
Use gray Jumars
Use a Pro-traxion
Use a modified GriGri
....and tons of other stuff that will probably kill me. Bring this post back to the top when I get the chop. Prophetic? Maybe..... But I'd sooner get the chop than being encumbered with all this paranoia and redundancy every time I go climbing. YMMV
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Manley
Trad climber
from Kentucky, living in St. Louis
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Oct 26, 2006 - 06:13pm PT
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As for re-slinging cams, a climbing partner of mine just had his Metolious cams all reslung by Metoliuos, and is sending his Black Diamond cams to Black Diamond for the same service.
So I know at least those two companies will re-sling their cams for you, and inspect them (not sure if they pull test them?) for a very resonable fee. I beleive he only paid a few bucks (
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 26, 2006 - 06:18pm PT
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Melissa,
The rope talks and talks clearly (except the invisible killer, sulfuric acid and I imagine other chemicles and gases like vehicle exhaust).
The sheath of your rope is just that, a sheath to protect the "kern mantle" construction inside (many tiny braided ropes). The internal ropes are to fail incrementaly producing a flat/low spot that is visible and can be felt (all this with the sheath intact).
The rope also looses its elasticity over time,, exposure to U.V. light, but more from being weightted through falls or top rope use; this can be felt through the stiffening of the rope.
If you were to fail a rope through tensile strength, I would suspect the person involved in the fall will have broken long before the rope.
This is going become a record long post if I truly detail, but trust it to be: You know what the gear looks and feels like new. If it becomes abnormal, it is time to spend some money. The materials are designed to NOT surprise you with a failure.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 26, 2006 - 06:23pm PT
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"The materials are designed to NOT surprise you with a failure."
Thanks for your response. A modified version of the above has been my mantra and will probably continue to be. Alas, there have been a few surprises lately. (Not necessarily Todd's accident.)
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