Harness and Safety

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Patrick Sawyer

climber

Originally California now Ireland

Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 25, 2006 - 10:34am PT

I did not want to disrespect Todd Skinner’s memory by posting this on the Skinner thread.

According to the LA Times, the preliminary investigation found that his harness broke, whether this was the case or not I am just wondering if this has happened much.

Anybody know of such incidents and if so, the manufacturer of the harness?

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 25, 2006 - 10:39am PT

Broken Harness... I have cannot recall this happening.
Chouinard sold off Chouinard Equipment (now Black Diamond) in the eighties because they feared the money in Patagonia clothing might go to a law suit where a person did not double back the buckle on the Bod Harness.

Webbing does not just FAIL. If the harness is not in tact, there is more to the story.

Gunkie

climber

East Coast US

Oct 25, 2006 - 10:43am PT

I don't know about everyone else, but I often use ratty old harnesses that are very comfortable. To back it up I always tie a loop of 1" tube webbing around my waist. I run the webbing through my two belay loops and always run the climbing rope tie-in loop through it.

With that said, I've never had a harness fail and have never had to rely on that 1" webbing back-up.

YMMV.

Chicken Skinner

Trad climber

Yosemite

Oct 25, 2006 - 11:09am PT

This is all that I know. He was rappelling when he fell, leaving the rappell device on the rope. When he was found there was no rapppel loop on the harness. There was discussion during the climb about the shape that his harness was in. It is still being investigated.

It is unfortunate that this happened and we all need to learn from it.

Ken

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 25, 2006 - 11:12am PT

Ken,
Did he detach right when starting the rap or was the device attached part way down the rope? I expect it is too early for this type of detail.

Thanks for the info.

Gary

climber

Desolation Basin, Calif.

Oct 25, 2006 - 11:14am PT

Harness failure? Holy cow. I know several folks climbing on 10+ year old harnesses. Some of which look very ratty.

Chiloe

Trad climber

Lee, NH

Oct 25, 2006 - 12:00pm PT

Someone told me last week about a climber tearing a leg loop on an old harness. Looking at my own old harness, I can't see how this could happen, unless there was already a lot of damage.

Then again, I was surprised to see Verm's self-cut Dyneema sling, and to learn of Jim Ewing's success at breaking non-nylon daisy chains. Or that broken rope in a gym ... seems there might be more variables in our systems than I knew about just a few months ago.

Levy

Big Wall climber

So Cal

Oct 25, 2006 - 12:20pm PT

I had a harness fail on me once. It was a Black Diamond harness, however I do not recall the model but it was a modern rig and only 2 1/2 years old. I had just threaded the anchor chains on a route I had just climbed. As I began to lower & clean the pitch, my waistbelt suddenly rode up to my chest. The leg loops had broken INSIDE the protective sheath that covers the point where the leg loops meet the belay loop. There was no visible wear on the harness that may have suggested that a failure was possible. I sent it back to BD with a note explaining what happened and they never replied to my inquiry except to sent me another harness of the same type which had failed.

I believe that the protective sheath was made of Kevlar and the leg loops were composed of regular nylon webbing. It is my un-professional opinion that the two types of material had differing abrasion resistance and led to the inner webbing being damaged from inside by the Kevlar sheath. BD never wrote me back to explain how or why this can occur. To this day I am sceptical of the quality of BD sewn gear. I never wore the replacement harness they sent me. I bought a different brand and have never used a BD harness since.

Like Gunkie, I too use a 1" webbing for my chalkbag and also as a backup for my harness. I tie the rope through the 1" webbing EVERY time I go climbing. I also back up the belay loop with a 'biner I have dedicated to the task full time. This way when I belay or rappel, I'm not just on the belay loop(I've heard this called a frindler too).

Be redundant in everything you can in your anchor chain. That goes for harnesses as well.

Levy

G_Gnome

Boulder climber

Sick Midget Land

Oct 25, 2006 - 12:43pm PT

There are lessons to be learned in all those failures but none of them except the broken rope would surprise you if you took the time to think about them. Lessons learned, don't girth hitch webbing together, it cuts; webbing with no stretch isn't suited to handling high impact falls; only climb on your own ropes or your partners if you trust him; replace soft goods long before they look like they should be replaced.

JAK

climber

The Souf

Oct 25, 2006 - 01:12pm PT

10 year old harnesses? Are they high? I retire all soft goods after 3 years of use or 6 years of storage, whichever comes first. This is, of course, subject to inspection and wear, and retirement may be sooner.

People do realize that almost all fibers, synthetic or not, lose their initial material qualities with age and not just wear right?

A question for Levy: Nice idea backing up the belay loop with a 'biner full time. I really wish more companies (Metolius is the only one I know of) would get in the habit of putting double belay loops on their harnesses.

Question, however: When rappelling and belaying with a tube style device, do you operate the device around double carabiners as well? I personally moved to the meanest HMS biner I could find (DMM Big Boa, 28kN closed gate, three-stage twist-lock gate) just to add as much security to that portion of the chain that I could.

You learn something every day. Time to get a few feet of 1in tubular for the chalkbag and pick up another Boa to live in the harness next to the belay loop...

paganmonkeyboy

Trad climber

the blighted lands of hatu

Oct 25, 2006 - 01:21pm PT

I seem to recall hearing about a harness failure in Europe (German climber ?) some time ago that involved the tie-in points and abrasion from the rope associated with repeated falls. I've been searching for more info, but no luck.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Oct 25, 2006 - 01:22pm PT

JAK - I think you misread:

For what its worth the AMGA has a technical comittee that reviews and tests climbing stuff. They (AMGA) advise that all nylon products be replaced every 5 years while metal products should be retired/ replaced every 10 years.

JAK

climber

The Souf

Oct 25, 2006 - 01:25pm PT

Hardman -

Eh? I don't follow.

EDIT: Wait, ok, I'm with you. I was replying to Gary's mention above of friends in 10 year old harnesses, not the AMGA stuff.

graham

Social climber

Ventura, California

Oct 25, 2006 - 01:37pm PT

Ken, Thanks for the first hand report.

I have always been skeptical of those tiny little belay loops and cringe every time I use them.

I can’t recall a manufactures warning saying you MUST replace your harness in X time. The manuals that come with them are pretty thick though maybe I just missed it. Seems a little silly a harnesses weakest link the belay loop, would cause you to discard it as if it were a runner. Today I will add a knotted back up to all our harnesses.

I wouldn’t be so quick to blast a manufacture, some put a great deal of effort and $$ in their testing. Leaving one for another may be like jumping out of the pan into the fire. But I would loose the Dyneema slings.

Mike

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Oct 25, 2006 - 01:37pm PT

Sorry about that. But there are a hell of a lot of people climbing
with really old stuff. What about cams? Do you think anybody is
re-slinging them every 5 years?

My current harness looks pretty good after 7 years,
but I guess it's time to get a new one, for peace of mind.

Graham wrote:

I wouldn’t be so quick to blast a manufacture, some put a great deal of effort and $$ in their testing.

This is such a mind fuçk because we've been told that the belay
loop is infinitely stronger than the rest of the harness, and that
they "don't break". Well they do, and so did a rope in a gym recently
(sulfuric acid contamination - but no source was conclusively determined).
We've been told that we shouldn't run the 'biner through the
main harness webbing and the leg loop webbing, because it cross-
loads the 'biner. Well, I certainly won't be sharing that bit of advice anymore.

Holdplease2

Big Wall climber

Yosemite area

Oct 25, 2006 - 01:40pm PT

Just as an FYI on two belay loops...

I spoke with Yates recently after I tried the Metolius Waldo (two belay loop wall harness) asking why yates doesn't offer two belay loops on wall harnesses. Their response was that they did, for a time. But the two belay loops, slipping past one another when weighted, resulted in excessive wear on the tie-in points. You can still have a second belay loop added as an option.

I checked my Yates harness, where I have had two belay loops (one a fat perlon loop, one a sewn belay loop) and found my leg-loop tie in points are worn about 1/3 through and the waist tie-in is worn about 1/4 through. This may also be from nylon/nylon wear from the daisy chains, who knows?

Anyway, I like running two loops, but just wanted to mention this as we consider the options for redundant belay loops.

-Kate.

Chiloe

Trad climber

Lee, NH

Oct 25, 2006 - 01:43pm PT

G_gnome:
don't girth hitch webbing together, it cuts

Cuts under body weight? I didn't know that, until Verm's report. Previous tests I've seen of girth hitching slings suggest it reduces overall strength by something like 30%, but that leaves some margin (over 15kN) of strength.
http://www.climerware.com/knot5.htm
These tests did not involve Dyneema, though, which is what I thought might be the new element in Verm's case.

It still seems to me that there are instances where girth-hitching remains safer than other alternatives, so it remains part of my toolkit -- there are risks to other sling-joining strategies too. I'm shifting from Spectra back to nylon, however.

Larry

Trad climber

Bisbee

Oct 25, 2006 - 01:47pm PT

GhoulweJ -

It was not a Bod harness that "failed" when it was not doubled back. I don't remember the model name, but I stopped using the one I had! And the newly created BD stopped making them.

JAK

climber

The Souf

Oct 25, 2006 - 01:48pm PT

Are they reslinging their cams every 5 years? Probably not. Should they be? That's another question.

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

one pass away from the big ditch

Oct 25, 2006 - 01:51pm PT

Ok, ok, I'll get a new harness already.

jeesh

(seriously though, mine is wearing out pretty good at the leg loop connection. good reminder to get a new one before something not anticipated happens. RIP Todd)

jstan

climber

Oct 25, 2006 - 02:04pm PT

Many years ago I was using nylon containers to fire semiconductor samples into the nuclear reactor at the National Bureau of Standards. When they came back out they set off every alarm bell in the receiving cell. The radiation technician asked me what the containers were. (All the parts in the experiment had been preapproved so we in the cell were just trying to figure out why the high levels of radiation.) He said, "Oh, that's it. The nylon still has the catalyst in it and that has a high cross section for thermal neutrons." Later when we were doing a study on rope strength I learned nylon has a shelf life. Correct or not, I put the two together and suspect the chemical reaction may still be continuing in nylon products.

When climbing I never used a seat harness. They are too complicated.

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Oct 25, 2006 - 02:06pm PT

This is *really*, *really* unfortunate and very sad. I've seen one peice of soft (nylon) gear fail before and it was the exact same scenario that is being proposed/reported here. There was discussion between me and the other climber about the condition of his gear earlier in the day of the climb/accident. The climber fell and the questionable piece of gear broke. Luckily, he only sustained a couple of broken bones, so I still have a friend and climbing partner, his parents still have a child, etc., etc.

If nothing else, this can certainly serve as a reminder for all of us to check out our gear and make sure it is sound and to replace *anything* that is even remotely close to questionable, be it in condition or age. Our lives are worth more than anything we own.

10b4me

Trad climber

California

Oct 25, 2006 - 02:10pm PT

fwiw, I never use the belay loop for rapping. I always put the waist belt and crotch* thought the locking carabiner.

when I started climbing, belay loops did not exist. I just feel safer with the biner clipped to the waistbelt. I mean, we tie into the waistbelt.

the backup swami is also a good idea.

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Oct 25, 2006 - 02:18pm PT

It was not a Bod harness that "failed" when it was not doubled back. I don't remember the model name, but I stopped using the one I had! And the newly created BD stopped making them.

Was a Culp Alpine Harness. Black webbing with yellow trim. I still have mine. Worked fine (still would). I'd wear one again, same design, no problem. Not as nice as the current Bod, IMHO, but, a neat lightweight design. Still has a buckle to double back. And, I recall, two tie in loops on either side of the buckle, so, maybe safer than a BOD or Belay loop in that regard (ie, if you tie into the loops, the buckle becomes kinda moot).

Kate, really? Wow, you must climb a TON! That's an amazing amount of wear.

I have a hard time retiring some harnesses myself. And some climbing partners are even worse. Finally got a friend to quit wearing her worn out JRAT harness, by buying her a new BD harness.

I have a Yates with two belay loops. Like the two loops, really dislike the two buckles (Shield).

-Brian in SLC

handsome B

Gym climber

SL,UT

Oct 25, 2006 - 02:18pm PT

I think people are jumping to conclusions before the facts are in. Rapping is a body-weight force. A belay loop is rated to 30+ kn.

NeverSurfaced

Trad climber

Someplace F*#ked!

Oct 25, 2006 - 02:20pm PT

I’ve cut all of the belay loops off of my harnesses and replaced them with locking beiners. Had one wear prematurely on a caving harness and have just done it ever since. I’m sure that there are reasons this shouldn’t be done, but it’s just always seamed a bit more bomber to me.

Holdplease2

Big Wall climber

Yosemite area

Oct 25, 2006 - 02:27pm PT

Hey Brian:

I've worn this harness with the perlon loop being used as the fifi connection for about five years. I can't tell you how many perlon loops I've worn through, but here's part of why it happens.

I knot the perlon loop so that the fifi is on an isolated point in the loop. It is like an infinity symbol with a big loop around the tie ins and a small tight loop around the biner which I use as a fifi. This means that when I go from sitting on the pro, with the fifi pointing up to standing with the pro with the fifi pointing down, each time the perlon loop "saws" at the tie in points if its weighted Folks who use a biner as a fifi may be doing the same thing...its better to girth the loop to the harness than just use an oval with a fixed point for the biner.

Also, the belay loop/perlon loop are always having to scoot past one another every time one, then the other, is weighted. I feel this happen, like biner shift but not as harsh, one pushes the other out of the way.

So no, I don't climb a ton, I just climbed (unknowingly, at first) with a setup that resulted in excessive wear on my gear. Did I figure it out at first? No...but I figured it out when I started wondering what the heck was going on with my tie-ins. I won't do it this way on my next go-around with a harness. And I've decided that next go-around will start about now.

-Kate.

JAK

climber

The Souf

Oct 25, 2006 - 02:33pm PT

Unless I'm mistaken, most belay loops are in the neighborhood of 4400lbs. breaking strength, similar to one inch webbing, which is something like 20kN or thereabouts. The remainder of the harness is about 3500 lbs.

Regardless, either way the body and dynamic rope should act as a load limiter and keep impact forces well below this level. The point here isn't strength, it's redundancy.

handsome B

Gym climber

SL,UT

Oct 25, 2006 - 02:45pm PT

Mighty Hiker

Social climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Oct 25, 2006 - 02:49pm PT

It surprises me how often I see climbers, especially men, with waist belts that aren't snug enough. Relaxed fit, I guess. The chance of falling upside down, and having the waist belt pull over one's hips, isn't great, but it does exist, especially if it's overhanging, or you're wearing even a small pack or rack. And boys don't have hips, while girls do.

It also surprises me how many antique harnesses can be seen, especially at gyms. I've even seen Whillans harnesses, not so long ago - and they haven't been sold for 15 or 20 years. Usually not tied in correctly, either.

I believe that there have been tests on nylon products used for climbing, that show that they lose several percent of their strength each year - even if never taken out of the bag. Which correlates with jstan's comments. (If I remember, it started with a rope company that found some quite old ropes in storage, in their original bags, and tested them.)

So much also depends on wear and tear, falls, abuse, and other factors that can't be easily measured. Which is why the industry can only offer general cautions about when to retire gear.

I believe that the belay loop on any harness that is CE/UIAA approved must test at over 20 kN. But that's when new, and it may be one of the faster wearing parts. The idea of backing it up, especially as the harness ages, makes sense.

Anders

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Oct 25, 2006 - 02:57pm PT

Kate...Thanks for all the info re: two loops.

On thing that I do sometimes is clip in to the anchor or belay off of both the belay loop and my rope tie in. This doesn't help on rappel...but I've never worried about rapping as much because "it's only body weight". This is all really spooky.

JAK

climber

The Souf

Oct 25, 2006 - 03:06pm PT

Strength plays a large role in what we decide to back up. I don't use two single ropes because I know it will never break on its own. I don't use two belay loops because I know it will never fail on its own.

A problem I have seen is when I am making a rap with many ledges I am constantly weighting and unweighting the system. My rap biner has a tendency to rotate when I am unweighed and cross-load when I re-weight the system. I could easily see how this could un-lock a locking biner and cause a bad day.

A lot of things factor into what we decide to back up. I climb on a single rope because it's very averse to *failure*, not because of its excessive strength. Dynamic ropes are very strong, but in addition to that their dynamic properties act as a built-in load limiter, prevent me from getting injured (cliff geometry notwithstanding), and the kern-mantle construction makes the rope resistant to cuts from abrasion.

Nonetheless, I still have to back the rope up. I have to keep an eye on its run - is it hanging over any sharp edges that would sever it in a fall? If so, why wasn't that edge padded when it was lead past by myself or my partner? Things like that.

I am not so concerned with the strength of climbing gear (because, as noted, past a certain point, it's largely an academic matter) as with whether or not the system will fulfill its intended *function* of arresting a fall, any fall. In a lot of cases this doesn't hinge on strength but on redundancy or proper equipment use. Yes, strength plays a factor, but again that's not what we're after here. We know belay loops ought to be strong enough. The question is, if circumstances arise such that it *isn't*, or it fails for some other reason, what's the plan B? Dying is not acceptable to me.

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 25, 2006 - 03:12pm PT

LArry,
I don't want a fight but I was buyer at a climbing shop at the time of this accident (the guide un did his harness, too take a leak and did not double it back). I remember it being the Alpine Bod Harness with the double plate buckle. You double back between the plates.

If I am incorrect, please show it.

Anyway, it is not critical to this topic.

TradIsGood

Fun-loving climber

the Gunks end of the country

Oct 25, 2006 - 03:16pm PT

The belay loop and tie-in points are strong, when new.

When it is used, on every lower or rap, the harness gets nylon on nylon wear at least on the tie-in loops and possibly on the belay loop. I moved my first harness to gym only use when the wear was observable (5 yrs?).

All that said, a harness costs at most about 1/3 the cost of the ropes we replace every couple years or so - less than a large cam. It is probably safe to consider the visible layer of nylon to be a sacrificial layer, which when visibly worn, warrants replacement. (IMO, anyway)

Or at about 25,000 miles of driving. Costs about the same as oil changes at that rate?

Holdplease2

Big Wall climber

Yosemite area

Oct 25, 2006 - 03:32pm PT

Regarding belay loops, here's something else I've been wondering about.

I've been using a BD harness with a red belay loop for 6 years, other than a brief stint with a Misty Caddy that was stolen. The belay loop has four bar tacks. When I got it, it was bright red, now it is light pink, the bar tacks are lighter, too. Also, the single line of stitching around the belay loop gave out long ago, meaning I can separate the three strands of the belay loop with my fingers. I assume maybe the nylon in this single stitching degraded from light?

Due to wear on the structural part of the leg loops (I spend more time sitting than climbing), I retired it and bought a petzl.

The petzl has only two bar tacks on the belay loop. As I recall, my sewn nylon runners have 3-4.

Is it possible that this reduced number of bar tacks could eventually matter, as UV damages the stitching in the bar tacks making it less strong? It bugged me that there were only two bar tacks. I seem to recall only two on the Misty, as well.

Anyway, its probably not important, but under the circumstances its an interesting discussion.

-Kate.

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 25, 2006 - 03:37pm PT

Good that everybody is getting emotional about this but lets be careful.. There is no law or mandated experation statistic we can put onto the manufacturers about the product that will guarantee safety.

The reality is you can buy a harness today, and need to retire it tomorrow if the wrong series of events take place.

The great thing about our gear is it typicaly talks to us. The integrity of Todds harness was in discussion (allegedly). Caribiners show cracks at pins, or grooves in the bends, webbing freys ar becomes stiff. Ropes have their signs etc.

We all choose to do a great sport that cannot guarantee safety, I don't care what regulations we have. We have to care for our selves and make critical evaluations of EVERYTHING involved, weather, gear, partners etc.

Now lets all hold onto this relaity check and take a look at our pratices and our gear.

I know I have been thinking about a few hurried raps that were uneventful but should have been looked at more closely before casting off.

Goods times everybody, live well and long.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Oct 25, 2006 - 03:38pm PT

Kate:

I fully agree, those two tacks that Petzl uses does seem like it is pushing the limits. I do love Petzl harnesses, especially the buckle that cannot be misbuckled. And I have no huge concern for myself, because I'm sure two tacks are plenty strong when new and I do not let any plastic gear, including ropes, get old. But I sure see lots of people using gear far longer than I, and more tacks would sure seem safer! I'm guessing that harness sales will surge during the next few weeks...

NoRushNoMore

climber

Oct 25, 2006 - 03:54pm PT

How about a diff idea altogether?

The urine normally contains dissolved solids, about 60% of which are organic substances such as urea, uric acid, creatinine, and ammonia; and 40% of which are inorganic substances such as sodium, chloride, calcium, potassium, phosphates, and sulfates. Its reaction is usually acid (pH 6)

Point here is each time you take a piss if any part of it gets on your harness you are affecting nylon strength. And belay loop is the closest part of the harness to the action.

Holdplease2

Big Wall climber

Yosemite area

Oct 25, 2006 - 03:54pm PT

GouhlweJ:

Excellent point about how our gear talks to us. Anecdotal evidence is that in Todds case, his partner may have talked to him, too.

I've had several partners who climb on hot pink (now very light pink) quickdraws from (what must be) the 80s, and I've reprimanded for saying *anything*, as well as laughed at for being, basically, a silly little noob who depends on my gear, not my climbing, to keep me safe.

Well, maybe people people might start to listen more to not just their gear, but also their partners that love them.

Honestly, I've got to admit that I was a little embarassed thinking of wearing my new petzl harness that looks like it came from outer space when I'm climbing with people I've looked up to for years before I even *met* them who are being lowered off of climbs hanging from their rib cages in 15+/- year old swami belts.

Say something to these folks and you look/feel like an ass. Lose one of them and remember why you never said anything? You're going to feel way worse. Talk about gear that makes you uncomfortable, even if you heros are going to shut you down. You might be wrong, you might be overly cautious, but oh well.

And if you're one of those heros and you're reading this? Know that the noobs who give you grief are doing it b/c they care about you.

-Kate.

Russ Walling

Social climber

Out on the sand, Man.....

Oct 25, 2006 - 04:00pm PT

some FYI, not really related to the TS situation:

Never liked the belay loop thing as the single point of contact.... I'm smart enough to know it is bomber (when new) but I still don't really like it, for no good reason.

As for bartacks on loops and slings and such:
A bartack (without going into it) is good for about a 1000lbs. on a single strand to single strand bond.
FISH slings usually have between 8 and 10 tacks for the bond. The loop itself should fail around 6000lbs.... so you get a few extra tacks for things like wear, UV, etc.

FISH belay loops are 1" tube that is wrapped double all the way around on itself and is 3x thick at the overlap section. Total bartacks in the loop is usually about 10 and there is all the way around the donut stitching at least 5 or 6 times around the circumference. The testing machine could not break the donut when they were tested (10K limit?) Point being, those loops take a lot of wear and I always thought that having a lot of extra bond on there just made sense. I recall a while back that BD or someone showed a guy hanging on a belay donut only held together with some strips of duct tape..... point being there is more friction on the belay donut between the looped on itself webbing than on a single strand to single strand bond as found on a standard sling. So.... maybe a few tacks in the belay donut gives a good enough bond to achieve the desired strength?

Locker style edit:
Hey Kate, Quit crumming on my swami ya n00b!!! ;)

JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber

Stoney Point

Oct 25, 2006 - 04:02pm PT

This is so tragic. That harness probably was at the near failure mode for many rappels. Single point failure.

If it happened to one harness it probably will happen to another.

We do not know what type?

JDF

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 25, 2006 - 04:11pm PT

Juan-
Harness brand would be interesting, but not relevant.
The belay loops and harnesses are made of webbing (I know there are some with steel loops-this presents its own set of issues). There are not that many mills in the world making the webbing being used to mAKe our harnesses.

Problem is more likely to be us the climbers than the mill or the factory (I know a factory that bar tached a belay loop with 69 thread instead of 138 would be in error).

Anyway, I see it as the responsibilty of the enduser to check this stuff. Hell I chose to test some of my gear that was outside of recent recall specs myself. Why not, it's my life.

handsome B

Gym climber

SL,UT

Oct 25, 2006 - 04:11pm PT

Russ: I remember that duct-tape trick that Black Diamond did. I think it was to quell the same fear that Kate has about the Petzl belay loop only having two bar-tacks. I climb on that same Petzl harness.

As I said, I think we may be jumping to a lot of conclusions too fast and I will ASSume that Juan is just trolling again.

graham

Social climber

Ventura, California

Oct 25, 2006 - 04:15pm PT

Kate, The straight stitching used to layer these loops will add just as much strength as the bartacks do. For the record the Misty harness one of my sons has has four bartacks. I am a proponent for sew slings and was testing them as far back as 77 I still used (until today) boxed stitch and bartacked slings 20+ years old.

I was the manufacture of all the original Chouinard harnesses up through Rod Johnson’s “Bod” series. I have been wracking my brain if it was one of our Alpine models that was involved in the guide incident but the Culp harness rings the bell a little more. I do want to say there were a couple cases though. All are buckle related.

You are the most vulnerable when rappelling so redundancy can’t hurt even if these slings are rated so high. I do hope they find Todd’s loop so we can understand what happened better.

Mike

Holdplease2

Big Wall climber

Yosemite area

Oct 25, 2006 - 04:24pm PT

Hey guys -

Thank you for your responses, I really appreciate all of the expertise on this board. Its awesome to have a place to go with questions when just wondering about this stuff no longer seems good enough.

And Russ, I look forward to seeing you in the new Petzl sporty-clip-speedy-pro-redundotron next time I'm in Josh. ;)

-Kate.

JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber

Stoney Point

Oct 25, 2006 - 04:32pm PT

Juan-
Harness brand would be interesting, but not relevant

I really do not see how you can make that statement. It could be a flaw inherent in the particular harness design. Or a particular device could be interacting with said harness in a way that other harnesses do not.

JDF

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 25, 2006 - 04:40pm PT

Juan-
Harness design could be argued but close examination of todays harnesses will show little geometry difference or diff in the belay loop area of much significance.

Remember this is an aged harness that has lasted to a state of condition to warrant verbal comment... This would indicate significant ware... This could indicate the harness was doing more than talking to to its owner, but screaming.

sheesh sounds like I hurt your feelings. can't we just get along?

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Oct 25, 2006 - 04:40pm PT

I was the manufacture of all the original Chouinard harnesses up through Rod Johnson’s “Bod” series. I have been wracking my brain if it was one of our Alpine models that was involved in the guide incident but the Culp harness rings the bell a little more. I do want to say there were a couple cases though. All are buckle related.

Moot point, perhaps, but interesting none the less. I recall it was a Culp and not a Bod. From my hazy memory, the guy was tied into a locking biner, which was clipped to the harness, through the leg loop connector webbing, and the waist webbing. Which negated the nice feature of the Culp, being that if you tied straight into with the rope, you didn't really need the webbing for the waist doubled back through the buckle, as the loops for the tie-in were outside and not part of the buckle/webbing (similar to the old Wild Country Alpinist, only a little more useable, IMO). I kinda remember this because it seemed interesting to me that you could sue a harness maker and still not be using the harness optimally (by clipping into a locking biner, rather than tying straight into the harness). Story went that the guy undid the waist webbing to whizz, then re-did the waist buckle without the double back through. Later, when he loaded the harness, the waist came undone and the biner he was clipped to came off the waist and he dumped out of the harness with the biner still attached to the leg loop span of webbing.

Er something. Anyhoo...(have an inquiry into a former Chouinard/BD harness guy)...

-Brian in SLC

Patrick Sawyer

climber

Originally California now Ireland

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2006 - 04:45pm PT

Great responses (better than my snakes thread) and some interesting posts. I wasn't trying to point out or pick on any manufacturer, but I believe this tragedy can have some learning points.

tarek

climber

berkeley

Oct 25, 2006 - 04:51pm PT

If a university or other independent testing facility would volunteer to test belay loops (whole harnesses being difficult), we could gather some important data on this question. With some scrounging, we could get 300 hundred or so together, which would probably be a decent sample if: the distribution of harness ages was fairly broad, no brands (models?) with less than, say, 30 observations were included, and all were tested to failure. Engineers? Analyzing the data shouldn't be too hard (MR).

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 25, 2006 - 05:14pm PT

Gosh Tarek take a look at your harness. Does the belay loop look like the weak link?

I'm with Russ that a back up would be nice. If any of us want this we can add it ourselves if need be.

Trying to break a belay loop can certainly be done, but not with equipment typical to our industry... The loop is too strong for the testing equipment.

On the other hand, the other components of the harness can be pulled to failure.

I just hate to see us get emotionaly side tracked from the technical aspects of the harness because the instance (I am just knots inside over the Todd Skinner tragedy) appears to be the loop... It appears through comments on this thread it would be reasonable to say it was worn out.

Worn out how. We cannot say. could a brand new loop exposed to acid fail today yes.

Could a 6 month old loop fail today from abrasion, yes.

Could a good loop fail during rapel. Maybe. I am certain somebody can route the rope in some strange way that it could cut the loop from heat and friction of the rope.

These things are made of webbing, fabric, foam and buckles. They are not magic. They are just a solution for the need of a climbing harness. Their condition to do their job is up to us (I know there is an ANSI test for harnesses... This is a good thing and manufacturers do use it).

Now if we saw a complete seperation of webbing or stitching of a harness in optimum repair, I think some of these concerns would be more valid. I also think the harness would not meet the ANSI test, and I would expect a BAD BATCH scenario, that would be scary!

Todays harnesses are good. Their condition is your responsibility.

More laws / regulations are not a good response to tragedy if they are only there to make people feel better in the moment.

I will miss Todd, and I love this sport and the equipment too much to see us one day climbing by way of crane and manbasket backed up by a helicopter with a litter attached. That would just be loud and boring.

handsome B

Gym climber

SL,UT

Oct 25, 2006 - 05:21pm PT

Well, that pretty much sums it up.

Climbing is dangerous. Check your friends twice and yourself thrice.

davidji

Social climber

Oct 25, 2006 - 05:28pm PT

"Never liked the belay loop thing as the single point of contact.... I'm smart enough to know it is bomber (when new) but I still don't really like it, for no good reason."

When climbing you're tied into the rope, which backs up the belay loop--I clip through both anyway. An exception being single pitch cragging, where we may not be tied to the rope while belaying.

For raps, I'm sure I've used the belay loop before, but I think my normal practice is not to. If it wasn't I expect it will be. At least until I buy a harness that wasn't made in the 90s.

Using the belay loop alone sometimes bothers me too.

lamadera

Trad climber

New Mexico

Oct 25, 2006 - 05:44pm PT

This doesn't make sense to me. If they were working the route, that implies falling and hanging. If the belay loop were to fail, it seems more likely that it would fail catching a fall, not during a body-weight rappel. My guess is that there's more to the story. In any event, it truly is a tragedy.

JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber

Stoney Point

Oct 25, 2006 - 05:47pm PT

I am sure their is a lot of photographic evidence of the harness in question.

JDF

Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Oct 25, 2006 - 06:28pm PT

Lam, when I've climbed with Todd, or virtually anyone else, he/they don't tie into the belay loop.

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 25, 2006 - 06:35pm PT

If the leader takes a fall, the belay device is connected to the belay loop. The belay loop takes the load, not the tie in.

Neil

Gym climber

Here and there

Oct 25, 2006 - 07:25pm PT

There are a number of issues at hand, but I'd like to address the testing of equipment by manufacturers:

Why doesn't the climbing industry report their tests of equipment to an independent organization that makes those tests available to the public in a digestible fashion?

Why is most of our data on equipment come from random tests that motivated individuals do from time to time? I'm thinking of JL's tests on cordalette equalization, Craig L's test on ice screws, etc. Shouldn't the creation of this data come from the industry?

I would like to see the climbing industry be more proactive about reporting testing data. It seems that some companies do this better than other--BD comes to mind--but the information still takes time to dig through.

How is it that a mag can post a study indicating that rope marking pens decrease rope strength, but I call up a maufacturer and they tell me not to worry about it?

How come no one is doing tests of the breaking strengths of harnesses that are 5 years old? Rope that's 5 years old?

Is it because we aren't asking for it, comfortable to rely on anecdotes and half-truths?

I don't know. But I do think that the climbing industry needs to create a clearinghouse for information of testing data.

Cheers,
Nate

Scared Silly

Trad climber

Oct 25, 2006 - 07:32pm PT

A few random thoughts for folks. I used to be an mech. engr. did a little gear testing back in the 80s looking at environment affects (acid rain/UV) on ropes. We found that they did not affect the ropes as much as one would think as such our conclusion was that "in general use" and abuse is was what caused nylon to lose its strength.

Also back in the 80s one of the rope mfg. took an unused rope that had been stored and did a drop test on it. It failed on the first drop. Nylon products degrade due to oxidation.

Now to the harnesses and belay loops. I am also one that does not like them. I have a DMM biner clipped in that I use for rappelling and belaying. The only thing the belay loop gets used for is that is where my daisy chain is girth hitched to. I also use it for the occasional supplemental clipping of biners or tie ins.

Last year I replaced my old harness that I did the same with - did not used the belay loop. Even though I did not use the belay loop was it showed alot of wear as it was quite fuzzy. Had I used it, it probably would have seen alot more wear.

Here is why? One if you have biner connected to it the biner slides around as does the loop. Two, When belaying where is your rope most of the time? On the ground. yeah it may be stacked on a tarp or some thing but ever noticed all the crap on the tarp? Well that crap gets in your rope cuts a few fiber there and then can get squeezed out while belaying and lands in the loop where it can cut a few more fibers. Third, when used the belay loop is subject to some tight bends that loaded repeatedly. Similar to a quickdraw but the different is enven though draws take falls one has lots of them. There is only one belay loop.

YMMV

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 25, 2006 - 07:32pm PT

Results of testing used equipment is going to be dependant on the abuse from the user. This info is going to be inconclusive. Take responsibilty for yourself and learn about the gear and materials. This is a do it yourself sport, not an amusement ride.

Edit:
This sounds meaner than I mean it to. But you get the point.

handsome B

Gym climber

SL,UT

Oct 25, 2006 - 07:34pm PT

With all due respect Nate, the climbing companies are just companies.
The FAA oversees airline safety because there is a pressing public need for it, but in climbing, the need, and the money, is just not there for an independent oversight body.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Oct 25, 2006 - 07:45pm PT

Jaybro wrote:

Lam, when I've climbed with Todd, or virtually anyone else, he/they don't tie into the belay loop.

When he belayed, was he using the belay loop, or did he pass the 'biner through the
main webbing and the leg-loop webbing like many (if not most) Old-Schoolers™ do?

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 25, 2006 - 07:59pm PT

It is said that the carabiner and belay device were still attached to the rope and the harness is missing the loop.

I would say he clipped the loop.

lazide

Big Wall climber

Bay Area, CA

Oct 25, 2006 - 09:19pm PT

Hey Russ! Not sure if you are interested... I've been very impressed by the stuff you have done for the community re: the daisy chain stuff, and what you did for kate with her aliens and the rivet hangers.

I have a petzl calidris harness I currently use for the gym (2-3 nights a week, often lead falls) which previously has seen 3+ years outdoors, 500-800+ routes? but few falls. It is showing some signigant wear - would you be interested in testing it to destruction and posting what you find?

I also have some 2 year old mammut slings with light fuzzing, and some 5mm spectra cordalettes and atleast as old spectra cam slings (5mm cord) - how about those?

They are all at a level of wear I would suspect most people would consider 'ok' and would consider climbing on them, but it seems that could be a fatal decision in light of recent events.

ewto

Mountain climber

My mommy's tummy

Oct 25, 2006 - 09:59pm PT

"When he belayed, was he using the belay loop, or did he pass the 'biner through the
main webbing and the leg-loop webbing like many (if not most) Old-Shoolers™ do? "

Not to stray too far from the topic, but I was just musing that when I posted something over at rockclimbing.com once about how it was counter-intuitive for me to use my belay loop, all the kids over there jumped my ass like I was Tom Cruise in a gay pride parade...

definitely an age-gap there... although I've committed myself to giving my belay loop a serious try after my fall in August from a cross loaded biner NOT through my belay loop.

Mimi

climber

Oct 25, 2006 - 10:04pm PT

I used to climb with a Frog swami and detachable leg loops which I didn't always use. When I started climbing again and bought a Petzl, I thought that single loop was way spooky but I trusted the sewing. I think I'll start backing that loop up from now on despite its age. I'm sure age makes all the diff with nylon products.

Russ Walling

Social climber

Out on the sand, Man.....

Oct 25, 2006 - 10:09pm PT

Lazide, check your email

Maysho

climber

Truckee, CA

Oct 25, 2006 - 11:03pm PT

Just had this emailed to me from a reporter friend,
this article says definately old harness and belay loop breakage.

Quotes Paul Piana, Yvon Chouinard etc.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6600AP_WST_Climber_Killed.html

wtf?

tarek

climber

berkeley

Oct 25, 2006 - 11:13pm PT

Peter, save those old harnesses. I'm looking into testing belay loops and, barring other options, will provide an address for mailing them.

GhoulweJ,
2 days ago, I'd have thought testing these to be ridiculous. Perhaps in 2 more days I'll return to that view. For now, though, it would be nice to have some answers, however hard they may be to obtain. I'd bet that random variables would explain few induced failures. The reason to do such testing is to know something, rather than just guess. If very heavy use over 5 years leads to an average-3SD decrease in strength of X%, wouldn't you want to know X? Put another way, if someone collected data as I suggested above, would you avoid reading it?

If you've never used heavy rigging, you might think that machines for testing sewn webbing strength end at a measly weight, but they don't. Slings for use with cranes often have more than one life at stake.

tarek

bomber pro

Trad climber

australia

Oct 26, 2006 - 12:48am PT

My thoughts on this are as follows, I have seen with my own eyes that harnesses can and do fail. seldom at the belay loop, but more frequently at the leg loop where it attaches through the belay loop. because of the wear and tear of the ropes and or slings girthed or tied, that are used for attaching to aiders/gear. when aiding the constant rubing of any material through the two loops that consist of the leg loop and waist band cause friction burns,usually where the belay loop attaches the two components . the one that wears the leg loop the quickest is the type of tie in that runs twice around the two points before bieng rethreaded, this when tightened in a fall, saws as it sinches tight causing massive damage over time,a carabiner instead/as well as the belay loop can cause the carabiner to fail due to cross loading at a "much" lower rating than the equipments standard or listed rating .my preferance is a steel big D malion that is strong in any direction and can't be cross loaded,and smooth enough to avoid friction at that point. I use this as my attachment point for solo aiding with a modified gri gri.the D's are also used on all my familys harnesses for added protection, my two young sons can be conected to the rapell gear and the D's tightened by me ,I can then head down knowing that they are on and can't cross load anything,or undo anything when I'm down below,fireman breaking. I can safely say that I replace my equipment on a regular basis, due to the fact that nylon/perlon is unsafe after a prolonged period ,add on frequent whippers, UV, wear and tear, then it is normal to see failures if the gear is not retired after its use by date. someone said it very well in a previous thread that "we all have to look after ourselves and our equipment" If you climb with others and you check their knots and belts then maybe take a closer look at the state of the harness and slings/rope ,and if you think its dodgy- then say something please!

Standing Strong

Mountain climber

a dream we dreamed one afternoon long ago

Oct 26, 2006 - 01:21am PT

this thread makes me want to get a new harness. one with padded leg loops, too, tho maybe it's a plus that it hurts to fall? good reinforcement that falling is bad.

Patrick Sawyer

climber

Originally California now Ireland

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2006 - 08:59am PT

Yeah I always tie in through the harness not just the belay loop, but I'm also beginning to think perhaps a backup swami or something.

JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber

Stoney Point

Oct 26, 2006 - 10:12am PT

What I find so sad is that they discussed the poor quality of the gear during the climb and did nothing to change the situation. Did they really discuss it?

I was under the impression that all harness specified not to tie in through the belay loop.

Since I first started climbing I have always backed up the belay loop as I saw it as a single point failure.

JDF

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 10:30am PT

Jaun,
We are basing the harness discusion on hearsay.
As for backing up the belay loop, I would say that is where everybody on this thread is headed. I used to replace my harness every year because I liked the new gear. I might start doing that annualy again.

I can say that the first harness I ever had with a belay loop, I used it for just that, to belay. I rapped off a biner threaded through the tie in points. It was not that difficult to orient the carabiner so it was not side loaded... Once again, responsibility on the climber to orient the biner.

Everybody! no matter what we do, the object to focus on may change, but the responsibility will fall back on us the climber!

As for a swami back up, perhaps we need the industrial harness used on buildings, then get rid of lightweight helmets mandating only heavy hats, and we should not expose our toes to potential permenant damage and wear steel toed boots. No better yet, We should resort to virtual climbing. We can stand in a freezer for the exposure to the elements and use nintendo software. That way none of us have to accountable for our actions (we still have to leave the freezer before we die) No wait, a timer for the freezer (doh we still have to set the timer).

---just some sarcasim and levity

Lets just all be careful. Laws and regs are not the solution and that is what this Universty study will create. It helps them get noticed. Lets work with a vendor if you really want this done. The vendors do not want us dead or injured.

Mtnfreak

Mountain climber

Bellingham, WA / Bishop, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 10:35am PT

Just wanted to correct an assumption that the first original post made, quoting the LA times. I cut and pasted this from Manley's post on the TS memoriam thread before we decided to end analysis discussion on that thread:
"from an LA Times article:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-climb25oct25,1,3081670.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california
'Park officials still are investigating the cause. However, a family spokesman, Steve Bechtel, said authorities had told him that their preliminary finding was that Skinner's climbing harness broke.'

I'm sure all of us are anxious to hear the cause of this tragedy, especially when it is one of our heroes... if any one has any confirmed information on the cause, please let us know.

RIP Todd, and all the love and support in the world to your family forever.

Manley

EDIT: I see now in the SFGate.com article, a more complete quote:
"We don't know whether it was a climbing harness failure or a problem with his equipment or an error," said Steve Bechtel,"

So, as I suspected, the previous article I mentioned intenionally pulled Steve's comment regarding the harness out of context for its sensational-media value. Sad, but no surprise from main stream media."

So it may not necessarily be the harness. I thought the accident occurred while Todd was descending. This means multiple raps past multiple anchors. Could it be a simple mistake at an anchor change-over?

pedge

Trad climber

Oct 26, 2006 - 10:36am PT

I have a harness that I used to do a lot of sweating in while in the South East that has some visible corrosion on the surface of the buckle as a result. However, I have more concern with the possible effects of urine on the nylon from those long routes with difficult, last second emergency pisses where things get a little messy. Is there any real data on the effects of urine on nylon?

Southern Man

climber

Oct 26, 2006 - 11:06am PT

An AMGA instructor once told me that cat pee was found to do more damage to nylon (ropes, slings, harnesses, etc.) than gasoline. FWIW

Maysho

climber

Truckee, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 11:24am PT

Two different articles now that quote Jim Hewitt, first and second hand, as saying that the belay/rappel loop broke while Todd was rappelling. Also that the harness was visibly old and worn, and had been commented on. Makes no difference really, just tragic and sad.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/26/CLIMBER.TMP
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6600AP_WST_Climber_Killed.html

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Oct 26, 2006 - 11:28am PT

Suddenly, we're all eyeing our belay loops as if they were made of cellophane. Personally, I've never heard of a belay loop breaking before, and there have been a lot of harnesses used in the world in the last twenty years or so. We don't know exactly what happened in this tragic and very sad accident, but there is at least a suggestion that the equipment in question was very worn.

I'm not sure that backing up things as generally bombproof as the belay loop is really the appropriate lesson here, especially because the back-up is likely to increase one's tolerance for holding on to worn gear for one more season or one more climb. I think the real message ought to be that softgear can't be trusted indefinitely and ought to be retired well before it looks like it needs to be retired.

Mammut gives retirement guidelines for harnesses (and ropes). I've heard people ridicule these as a ploy to sell more gear or an attempt to avoid litigation by proposing absurd standards, but perhaps some of us might now take these recommendations a bit more seriously.

Never used: 10 years max
Rarely used (2 X per year): 7 years max
Occasionally used: (1 X per month): 5 years max
Regularly used (several X per month): 3 years max
Frequently used (each week): 1 year max
Constantly used (almost daily): less than 1 year max

According to these standards, your basic weekend warrior who goes to the gym once or twice a week should be thinking about a new harness every year, and three years looks like an outer limit for anyone with at least a moderate level of involvement.

G_Gnome

Boulder climber

Sick Midget Land

Oct 26, 2006 - 11:32am PT

Wow! There sure is a lot of jumping to conclusions here. For my part I think I will continue to use my equipment in the way it was designed to be used and avoid things like cross loading biners that have shown to be bad. So much of the time in climbing we are relying on a single point of failure and if you are reasonable it seems that the risks are pretty damn minimal. We have one failure of an admittedly dodgy piece of gear and everyone is talking about adding redundancy, well how about just keep your gear in good shape and treat it like your life depends on it and the likelyhood of you ever having a problem is almost none. If you realized how much better and safer gear is now compared to 20 or 30 years ago, which didn't kill us, you wouldn't be panicing now.

Hootervillian

climber

the Hooterville World-Guardian

Oct 26, 2006 - 12:19pm PT

i think the urine questions have merit. one very insidious byproduct in urine is acetone. levels seem to increase as a result of, among other things, the processing of alcohol.

don't have to look further than a men's bathroom in a bar to see the possible cumulative negative effects on nylon and stiching over time.

hossjulia

Trad climber

Eastside

Oct 26, 2006 - 12:39pm PT

Wow, sounds like I need to get a new harness, something that has been nagging at the back of my brain for a few years now.
I told myslef no more new gear unless I climb more. Well, both of my harness are over 15 years old. Time to trash them and get a new one. Same goes for some slings that have been hanging around for who knows how long!
That rope I have been reluctant to retire? Getting cut up for long lines for the horse soon. It's 10 years old.

I have never used my belay loop on my harness. I guess I started climbing before they were common, and just never liked it. I always tied in to the waist belt and leg loops. I use the belay loop for swapping belay devices when I have to pass a knot in a rope. That's about it.

I know clipping a biner through both the waist belt and legs loops for belaying and rapelling is problematic, given to cross loading of the biner. I use the biggest pearabiner I can find, and do replace those as soon as I see signs of wear. My horse has some fancy bucket hangers.
Scared myself on rapell once relating to cross loading. I tend to keep an eye on my set up as I'm descending, but this time had started to rapell with the biner cross-loaded. I watched it flex alarmingly, stopped at a good spot and straightened it out. It was a locker, and it was locked, but still.

I've learned alot from this thread, thanks Patrick!

And it sucks we had to loose such a good man to learn these lessons.

johnboy

Trad climber

Can't get here from there

Oct 26, 2006 - 01:13pm PT

Dispose of from date of purchase or date of manufacturing?

With respect to the problem of ageing nylon, dyneema and such, it would be nice if the manufacturers clearly dated all the material componets in the products sold. I know some of this suff sits around for a couple of years before it gets sold. Further back in the thread it was suggested to replace dyneema slings (and on cams) every couple of years. How many are close to that old when purchased?

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 01:38pm PT

Manufacture date is of little help. You would need date coding on the raw materials. The webbing could sit at the mill for a couple of years before our vendors get it.

Remember, stiffness, color fading are a voice of the material.

cbear

Trad climber

somewhere past the 1st pitch

Oct 26, 2006 - 01:44pm PT

what about a prusik (or other friction knot). When rappeling I always back up my belay with a prusik and attach it to my leg loop. I wouldn't want to hang out for long with just this, but it would be a backup in case the belay loop broke (or i lost hold of the rope, was knocked unconscious, etc)

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 01:52pm PT

Cbear-
I have not tried hanging by just a single leg loop attachment. I would expect it could work under just body weight and if the HARNESS IS NOT WORN OUT. You are using a weak part of the harness, but better than nothing. Prusik to the leg loop is always a good idea.

I do not usualy do the back up even though I think of it everytime I rappel.

johnboy

Trad climber

Can't get here from there

Oct 26, 2006 - 01:54pm PT

"Manufacture date is of little help. You would need date coding on the raw materials. The webbing could sit at the mill for a couple of years before our vendors get it. "

Exactly, thats why I specified,
"if the manufacturers clearly dated all the material componets "

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 02:02pm PT

Johnboy-
Sorry, a bit of confusion. What I am saying is BLACK DIAMOND etc. could not accuratly date the age of the material (webbing). That would need to be done by the braiding company making the webbing.

TradIsGood

Fun-loving climber

the Gunks end of the country

Oct 26, 2006 - 02:14pm PT

"Manufacture date is of little help. You would need date coding on the raw materials. The webbing could sit at the mill for a couple of years before our vendors get it. "

Could... Do you have any actual experience to suggest that this ever happens in practice? Sure would be very bad business (uncompetitive) for a company to make and store inventory.
JIT manufacturing matured in the 80s.

Russ Walling

Social climber

Out on the sand, Man.....

Oct 26, 2006 - 02:23pm PT

It happens for sure SadDad... now back into your hole.

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 02:26pm PT

Webbing is made in large runs. Braiders need to be set up and it takes time. Date coding exist in other braided product, but not our webbing.

If you are really interested in some of this, the military spec and research for product like the 1" tubular webbing and other webbing is availiabe to the public. The military did alot of good research on this and created a standard that has proven the test of time until in question today.

-I am not military.-

Hate to see us reinvent the wheel. If the concern is so great then perhaps we need to reinvent webbing.

If you time stamp a woven date color code into webbing, the price of gear will sky rocket, and availiability will plummet. The mortality rate of our sport is pretty good. The event that is bring this up is really about product that was worn out... How did they know it was worn out, the product showed proper signs of being worn out.

Sounds to me like the webbing is doing its job. We the climbers need to do our job to. The limit was pushed just too far, and it saddens me as much as everyone else. The answer is to use gear in good condition.

graham

Social climber

Ventura, California

Oct 26, 2006 - 03:28pm PT

The manufacturing date is fine IMO. If you batch test the slings when there’re made and reference the raw material lots and they meet the requirements. There’s your baseline you can add whatever hypothetical time limit you want to that.

I for one would be curious what some old slings would test out at as someone mentioned earlier, especially if they still looked serviceable.

Anyone out there offering a sewn reslinging service for cams and such?

Edit: Just want to clarify above I mean date of sewn sling.

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 03:35pm PT

I could test any old slings anybody wanted to toss. as for reslinging, I could do that too. Perhaps its time to offer the service.
I would expect the manufaturer of your cam might offer reslinging.

Edit: perhaps FISH he has been pretty good to the Super Topo crowd.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Oct 26, 2006 - 03:43pm PT

Even date of manufacture of the webbing itself would be of little use. You'd need to have date of manufacture of individual nylon source spools used to weave the webbing if the objective was to know how old the nylon (or other material) was. Date of manufacture of the final product should suffice and assumption will have to be made about how long such source materials linger in the supply chain before being used. But in this day of ISO, TQM, Six sigma, and WCM everyone in the supply chain should be pushing back on their suppliers for as much traceability data as possible.

graham

Social climber

Ventura, California

Oct 26, 2006 - 04:20pm PT

GhoulweJ,

Curious on what your business is and what kind of equipment you’re operating for bartacking.

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 04:23pm PT

Graham: Brother B430
You mentioned you have some old slings you are tossing. I would be happy to break 'em. Could give you photo or video of failure if you like.

Russ Walling

Social climber

Out on the sand, Man.....

Oct 26, 2006 - 04:28pm PT

Between the dating of every fibre from its point of creation and forming regulatory bodies to oversee all nylon products, here is a simple way around all of it......

DON'T USE OLD SHIITY LOOKING WEBBING

Sure, there could be acid on your brand new belay donut and you died, or there could be a nylon eating virus that just mutated its hungry asss self onto your quickdraw.....
but, if your gear looks to be in good shape, is not outrageously old, is not crusty and has not been contaminated with some weird gasses or chemicals, chances are pretty good you will live through your next rappel.

Have any questions about your gear: buy new stuff.
Not worried about it?: good for you and monitor your gear for obvious wear signs.

Or you could just subscribe to the "numbers up" theory, that says that no matter what you do, when it is your time to go, all the new and shiny gear, helmets, autoblocks, 1/2" bolts, and various safety measures will not save you. When your number is up, it's up.... "don't be late...."

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 04:33pm PT

"don't be late" LOL

graham

Social climber

Ventura, California

Oct 26, 2006 - 04:50pm PT

Numbers up Theory - always proves itself in the end.

Sounds good, I’ll contact you soon. (GhoulweJ)

10b4me

Trad climber

California

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:08pm PT

Anyone out there offering a sewn reslinging service for cams and such?

good question. I was looking at some of my older cams the other day, and was wondering about changing the webbing.

Russ Walling

Social climber

Out on the sand, Man.....

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:17pm PT

No idea who might sling cams...... (waiting for the light bulb to at least flicker)

Locker style edit:

on second thought, just go here: http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/slings/index.htm#9

JAK

climber

The Souf

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:20pm PT

No idea who might sling cams...... (waiting for the light bulb to at least flicker)

What...

you mean like...

Yates?

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Another question from another topic for you Fish, but while I've got hold of you here:

Saw that bit about Verm blowing a dyneema sling under body weight and been thinkin' about a better way to girth hitch. Correct me if I'm wrong but:

assumptions:

Omega Pacific Aluminum rap rings are cheap ($2.95 retail) and have a breaking strength of 20kN.

These same rap rings have that breaking strength omni-directionally yes? After all, they're circles.

Conclusion:

Therefore, if one could thread some 9/16ths nylon through an OmegaPac (or anyone else who's stuff is of assured quality and high enough strength) rap ring and bartack it closed into a standard sling, wouldn't you end up with a sling that would be girth hitch maintaining the "soft on hard only" principle and was not crossloading a biner?

I realize the thought of "just attach one end to your harness with a 'biner dumbass" is crossing your mind, but I'm thinking beyond that and into slinging natural protection on routes. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but using a sling in this manner with a standard 'biner results in a three way load, correct?

Just throwing that out there. Thoughts? Also, if you steal my idea and patent the brand new FISH GirthSafe Runner, can I at least have a few freebies?

Holdplease2

Big Wall climber

Yosemite area

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:21pm PT

I resling anything that looks a little FISHy.

-Kate.

creetur

climber

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:24pm PT

Question: I have two ropes, one dry, one non-dry, that I've had for about 3.5 years--one has barely been used and never seen a lead fall, and one has seen only a couple of minor lead falls and, because grad school intervened, hasn't seen that much use either.

I keep my ropes in my "laundry room" with the washer and dryer, and when I dry clothes it gets really, really steamy in there (it's tiny). I've wondered for a little while now if this prolonged exposure to steam (though both are in ropebags) is having an effect on their integrity. I am going to move them, but wonder now if I should just trash them. They look like they're in perfect shape.

Opinions?

cliffhanger

Trad climber

California

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:28pm PT

When adding a new sling to some rap stations I'll take and keep one of the old mangy faded rotten looking ones. I pieced these old slings together to make a tow rope for my car and to tow others cars. The old slings took tremendous towing abuse without breaking: ie the rear driver letting slack build up and then suddenly coming on line. Many tows later one severe jolt did cause a break.

The belay loop should not have broken when rapping even if it was extremely old and worn.

graniteclimber

Trad climber

Nowhere

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:31pm PT

Anyone out there offering a sewn reslinging service for cams and such?

A friend of mine recommended some guy out near JT named Wuss Ralling. Or something like that.

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:35pm PT

I have a few questions about a few things that some of you might have experience w/...

1. When ropes are tested to failure, is there typically an evident core shot or other visible dammage appearing before the fall that actually makes the rope break?

2. Do static materials like slings and harnesses experience a similar decrease in strength when catching repeated falls? Any data on this?

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:41pm PT

FATTRAD:
Try Yates they do it(as quoted by FISH). Sounds like I will be working out some details on my end and perhaps myself or those near me will offer service soon...

I'm not trolling for business, but I suspect there are many people right now wanting to resling and have limited options.

I think most manufacturers do not offer the service because there is little money in it and an attached liability of touching "used gear".

Really is more of a service than a cash cow.

JAK

climber

The Souf

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:42pm PT

1. When ropes are tested to failure, is there typically an evident core shot or other visible dammage appearing before the fall that actually makes the rope break?

UIAA fall test is to rope *breakage*. If there's an obvious coreshot, I've got money saying the next droptest is the big winner, but I'm sure they do it anyway, because up until everything seperates, the rope ain't done broked!

2. Do static materials like slings and harnesses experience a similar decrease in strength when catching repeated falls? Any data on this?

All nylon loses strength and (in the case of dynamic ropes) dynamic qualities with age. Wear and tear seems to speed this process, though we're still talking small enough percentages that you *should* retire them long before it's a threat. Follow manufacturer retirement guidelines, and like GJ has been saying, inspect yer friggin' gear before usin' it people.

So help this idiot out. I've got some twenty year old friends and tcu's that should get some new sling. Send them to Fish?

You could, but I'm with graniteclimber - this Wuss Ralling guy does fantastic work. Better to look him up instead.

pud

climber

Sportbikeville

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:45pm PT

I don't think I've ever rapped only tied (binered) into my belay loop.
I use a oversized BD locking biner laced through the loop on my harness that the belay loop runs through, AND the span of load bearing webbing attatching my leg lopps together.
I don't remmeber ever doing it differently.
Not only do I get a comfortable ride I am tied into two places on my harness. I don't believe this cross loads the biner.
My wife has told me enough times that I have actually been using a prussik back up lately. May be the most important 20 seconds of rigging I ever do.
None the less, I have been saying I need a new harness for a couple of years now. Mine is at least 10 yrs old.
I'll get another one today.

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:46pm PT

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:54pm PT

Melissa,
If you hear of "the rope (or webbing) was perfect, I ran it through my hands and know its history as perfect and mild, but it suddenly broke under body weight." It is almost prdictable that sulfuric acid is in the story somewhere.

Rope Test: Oh yeah, they SCREAM no more! A blind man with no fingers could figure this out before it breaks. -Remember most rope failures are cuts from running over edges or the frightening "Saw" of juggin up a rope that is rubbing something... Yikes!

Webbing is also not one that likes to surprise the user. How stiff is that baby? Is the weaving oppening up? Failed fibers in the knot that is produced in the loom can show fibers oppening up running lengthwise... That is bad.

Melissa, the great thing about our gear is it is primitive, not much rocket science involved. I know there are many exciting adjectives we use, but pick up a cam, or a stopper... We are talking basic mechanics. We wedge things in the rock, clip bolts (made for concrete). We need flexible links (runners etc), and a soft cord for the fall.

Just pay attention and take care of the gear. Have a question, contact the manufacturer. They want you alive and spending money.

JAK

climber

The Souf

Oct 26, 2006 - 05:58pm PT

JAK...I understand that they test the ropes till they break. What I'd like to know is if they can usually tell visually when the next one will be the final blow...Since as a user, it's good to think that you get some kind of warning before the rope blows apart as counting factor 2 falls isn't very relevant for my use patterns.

I wouldn't think so most of the time. FWIAO, core shots in the wild typically occur from cutting or other fiber-seperating damage, not tensile stess. I think you're much more likely to find flat or dead spots in the rope before the "fatal" drop. It seems extremely unlikely to me (using my statistically verified Common Sense Approach™) that a force powerful enough to cause the sheath to seperate and the core to explode out of it wouldn't just rip the rope in half to begin with.

Note of editation after reading Ghoul's post: I have been wrong before.

I also understand that old harnesses need to be retired. My question is to what degree does catching a sh#t load of high force falls decrease the strength of nylon goods, and if it does, is the reduction visible.

My point is that it shouldn't matter - the stuff should be well retired before then.

i.e., if you use the slings almost daily, get rid of them after six months just like BD or whoever says. There's no question in my mind that their recommendations on retirement are extremely conservative, so if you follow them, you're in the safe zone and exactly how far into it you are is a moot point.

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Oct 26, 2006 - 06:08pm PT

Manufacturers recommendations are all well and good when you're talking about your own gear, but most of us spend a fair bit of time trusting our arse to others' gear where all we have to go on is their word and our visual inspection.

And I know that if I expected my parnters to only climb on 6 month old quickies (or so they say...), I'd either be lonely or be taking out a lot of beginners.

FWIW, by "core shot" I meant any kind of visible damage to the core...whether you can actually see the whites of it or not. Sorry if this isn't the standard.

In any case, I have my own sense of common sense w/ these things and usually don't worry, but would be curious to see the DATA or direct observations from those who have done these tests. (I'm afraid I don't understand about the SCREAM?) In the last year I've heard of several cases of gear failing that couldn't necessarily be picked out as defective based on visual inspection, tell tale dimple aside. ;-)

mike hartley

climber

Oct 26, 2006 - 06:11pm PT

Please forgive my sarcasm but I have to admit that all of this talk about “hey lets test some old ropes and harnesses” makes me chuckle. There has been tons of testing of old nylon gear, with much of it being publicly reported. I’m certainly not the end-all source as I’m probably only familiar with a fraction of it (Robertson, Misty Mtn, BlueWater, AMGA, my own, etc) and Russ would have way more knowledge than I. For what its worth here’s a small bit what I’ve seen that’s relevant to this discussion.

Properly stored (static) nylon components lose little strength over time. Age doesn’t seem to be a big factor. Wear is. Abrasion on webbing and small diameter cord substantially weakens the product. This seems to be true long before the piece would be characterized as “ratty”. Dynamic ropes do seem to lose their ability to absorb high-load impact over time (~5 years) but are still way strong enough for top-roping at almost any age.

Kate mentioned faded, sun-bleached webbing. I’ve tested quite a bit of 1” tubular nylon. The last batch I tested had no abrasion at all but had been left continuously outside for a year and was noticeably stiff and brittle. There was no color left at all to the exposed areas; it was bone-white. Most pieces broke mid-span (single strand) at 2500 lbs. One strand broke at an overhand knot at 1632. Those still aren’t bad numbers for single strands with overhand knots.

Acid, whether it comes from your bladder or otherwise, isn’t good for nylon.

For just one example of “real-world” testing that’s been done look up the AMGA’s Mountain Bulletin Vol. XVI, No. 4, 2003.

Manufacturing errors do occur, though thankfully they are rare. Still I’ve seen numerous brand new ropes with herniated cores, 11mm ropes that failed at 1000 lbs, and ropes where if you took tension on a top-rope 20’ in the air you’d hit the ground HARD from the rope stretch. My wife broke her tailbone on one of those and it was verified by the manufacturer as being faulty. Defects happen and there’s only so much you can do about it. Redundancy helps but you can probably kill yourself quicker with overly complex systems than from a manufacturing defect.

We have no idea what ultimately lead to Todd’s death. I for one cannot believe the speculation that it was simply a matter of a worn belay loop breaking under body weight. I’ve seen too much testing of webbing recovered from rap anchors that was faded and torn halfway through that still held 1000 lbs. IF the loop broke I’m betting a combo of abrasion, chemical degradation, possible friction on the brake rope, with a little defect thrown in. I doubt that we’ll ever really know.

Russ Walling

Social climber

Out on the sand, Man.....

Oct 26, 2006 - 06:13pm PT

JAK: You are making my head spin..... As Werner once said, "just go the fuk climbing and quit worrying about this shiit"

Worried about girthing? If so use biners, two opposed.... the rap-ring thing is something like the "anal rententive Chef" would do from Sat. Night Live. Side note: the small diameter of the ring might in fact make the absolute strength of the runner LESS than if you just girth hitched them together. Trying to be extra safe may have just got you killed.

Hard and fast rules:
NO webbing to cable in any situation.
NO non-nylon webbing in girthhitches (and even nylon takes a #bs drop)
NO short tails on any knots
NO rapping on that 5.5mm kevlar stuff
NO edges for any of it
NO using really crappy looking stuff
NO car batteries near your junk

What I do:
Girth hitch nylon slings all the time
Use a daisy chain
Use a 6 year old harness
Tape up core shots
Use gray Jumars
Use a Pro-traxion
Use a modified GriGri
....and tons of other stuff that will probably kill me. Bring this post back to the top when I get the chop. Prophetic? Maybe..... But I'd sooner get the chop than being encumbered with all this paranoia and redundancy every time I go climbing. YMMV

Manley

Trad climber

from Kentucky, living in St. Louis

Oct 26, 2006 - 06:13pm PT

As for re-slinging cams, a climbing partner of mine just had his Metolious cams all reslung by Metoliuos, and is sending his Black Diamond cams to Black Diamond for the same service.

So I know at least those two companies will re-sling their cams for you, and inspect them (not sure if they pull test them?) for a very resonable fee. I beleive he only paid a few bucks (

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 06:18pm PT

Melissa,
The rope talks and talks clearly (except the invisible killer, sulfuric acid and I imagine other chemicles and gases like vehicle exhaust).

The sheath of your rope is just that, a sheath to protect the "kern mantle" construction inside (many tiny braided ropes). The internal ropes are to fail incrementaly producing a flat/low spot that is visible and can be felt (all this with the sheath intact).

The rope also looses its elasticity over time,, exposure to U.V. light, but more from being weightted through falls or top rope use; this can be felt through the stiffening of the rope.

If you were to fail a rope through tensile strength, I would suspect the person involved in the fall will have broken long before the rope.

This is going become a record long post if I truly detail, but trust it to be: You know what the gear looks and feels like new. If it becomes abnormal, it is time to spend some money. The materials are designed to NOT surprise you with a failure.

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Oct 26, 2006 - 06:23pm PT

"The materials are designed to NOT surprise you with a failure."

Thanks for your response. A modified version of the above has been my mantra and will probably continue to be. Alas, there have been a few surprises lately. (Not necessarily Todd's accident.)

cliffhanger

Trad climber

California

Oct 26, 2006 - 06:26pm PT

Here's some testing done by Black Diamond that shows even manky slings retain alot of strength:

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.php

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 06:27pm PT

Russ,
Werner is right.

Rich the Brit

Trad climber

San Ramon, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 06:34pm PT

Fail Safe Rappel Technique

1. Rappel device screw gate through harness belay loop
2. Prussik loop screw gate through leg loop or waist belt loop - NOT belay loop

A. If the belay loop fails, the prussik will hold the harness by waist or leg loops - may not be comfy, but will hold.
B. If leg loops or waist belt fails, the belay loop will hold the reamining harness component - you might be uside down.
C. If rappel device, prussik or either of screw gates fail, there is a back up.
D. If both screw gates fail, and/or harness leg/waist belt and belay loop fail, someone has it in for you (your girlfriend found out about your wife or the other way around?).

Prussik above or below rappel device? Matter of choice - I prefer above for slightly lessened risk of disappearing of the end of the ropes.

When we tie-in for climbing, we exclude the belay loop from the system, relying on the rope, but doubling up on the harness with the leg loops and waist belt both tied-in. When we rappel without a prussik, we are less likely to experience a fall, but we add a single component to the chain with no backups.

There are other good reasons to use a prussik on rappel - just clip to the leg loops/waist belt direct for extra redundancy.

G_Gnome

Boulder climber

Sick Midget Land

Oct 26, 2006 - 06:47pm PT

Hell Russ, I climb on a lot better gear than you, but I feel the same way. Quit worrying, if it looks like sh#t it is sh#t, otherwise climb on.

HalHammer

Trad climber

Oct 26, 2006 - 06:51pm PT

I'm no gear company guru, but working as a guide and for ropes course companies I've made my own conclusions about using gear.

The longest you can realistically use any nylon product is 10 years. That is the longest manufacturers have put on any lable I have seen and also the maximum standard required when inspecting rope courses and making facilities absolutely retire gear. I would say that equals about 10 years max use of a rope as a top rope. After 5 years of use/storage a rope isn't very dynamic anymore either so I choose not to lead on it regardless if the sheeth looks great after 5 years. The recommended max life of a harness seems to be 7 years and 5 years for webbing. Rope=10, Lead Rope=5, Harness= 7, Webbing= 5. Those are all max figures in my mind, that seem to be an average of different manufactures suggestions, what the AMGA says, and what the ropes course companies seem to require. That is for gear that still looks good, something that looks bad enough to make you wander/changing colors/frayed etc I generally throw out. For metal products I've seen up to 20 years recommended. I tend to chuck carabiners that are so scratched up you can't read the branded markings or that are heavily worn. After 10 years of moderate use most cams I've used that are that old seem almost worthless even with heavy lube/cleaning let alone incredibly difficult to place in comparison to newer/better condition ones.

Yeah I hate retiring stuff and especially buying so many stupid climbing shoes, but it is part of the sport. At least we don't have to pay for what we do in this sport beyond our investment in our climbing gear. I'm especially weary of all the new products on the market. There are all these new great things out there like those super thin dyneema slings, which haven't been around long enough to know a lot about their wear and tear. Probably shouldn't be used as anything other than a runner. Or say the new 8.9 single ropes, that've just come out, I'd be weary of using them super aggressively for extended time until they've been around a while. Although the heavy user would probably core shot it in a less than 2 years anyway; we shouldn't just trust it no matter what because it is a "single" rope though.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Oct 26, 2006 - 08:16pm PT

From another Todd / harness / safety thread on cc.com...

Climber quote - My points are:

1) Consider a back-up for your belay loop.
2) Don't use anything old or questionable when a failure is serious
3) Toss your old sh#t, especially biners and slings
4) Be suspect of skinny slings
5) It is easy to use two biners on your belay - rappel
6) Double yourself up when "daisying off" at hanging raps, etc

Can't necessarily concur with these conclusions being the takeaway lessons from losing Todd.

1) Consider a back-up for your belay loop.

Consider inspecting your harness (and all gear) frequently and replacing it when worn or damaged.

Understand that the current "ultralight" trend is not "free" - the costs quite often are paid in longevity and robustness. If you go "lite" expect to inspect and replace gear at a much higher freqency and ultimately treat all such gear as consumable or disposable after a perod of time.

2) Don't use anything old or questionable when a failure is serious.

3) Toss your old sh#t, especially biners and slings.

4) Be suspect of skinny slings.

Blanket assumptions do not apply across classes of gear and materials. Know the limitations of the materials and designs of your gear.

Understand the material lifecycle limitations and acceptable conditions for use of all your gear. Inspect it often, replace as necessary.

Don't get overly attached to gear - especially "comfortable" gear that can't be replaced because it is no longer made.

We all tend to be cheap and "get used" to gear we like; understand this is not always appropriate in all cases - be critical, flexible, and adaptable.

Don't try to "squeak" one more route, trip, or season out of worn or damaged gear.

5) It is easy to use two biners on your belay - rappel

6) Double yourself up when "daisying off" at hanging raps, etc.

Know when redundancy is appropriate, necessary, and / or desirable and how it can best be achieved.

Understand redundancy can be acheived in many ways and don't go overboard (like one daisy and the rope vs. two daisies). "One is good, two is better" is not always true, but sometimes it is - know the difference which may vary based on conditions and circumstance.

The act of climbing involves a "risk context" with many component and constituent elements and subcontexts. One [concrete] "risk subcontext" is the system comprised of all physical components associated with protection from the belayer to leader as well as the strategy and tactics used in its implementation on each route. Another [abstract] "risk subcontext" is the collection of decisions made by all parties during a climb based on the route attributes, experience, expertise, and environmental conditions involved. You should strive to understand as much as possible about the limitations of material, design, and use of all physical components involved and how they contribute to your overall "risk profile" at any time. That is germane both in the long-term relative to gear maintenance and in the short term relative to how you employ / deploy gear to get up a route.

In general, it is fairly remarkable how many of today's climbers coming out of gyms perceive risk. They often tend to completely overlook obvious perils and obsess over things that present trival risk at best. Try to learn as much as you can, keep your eyes and ears open, and think for yourself...

marty(r)

climber

beneath the valley of ultravegans

Oct 26, 2006 - 08:55pm PT

Russ,
How about adding "climb with a harness made out of an old aider." That'd have everyone's heads spinning.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Oct 26, 2006 - 10:08pm PT

Hey Russ:

Your last post pretty well nailed all of this. Right on, I agree completely. You always have ruled...

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Oct 26, 2006 - 11:40pm PT

For general replacement of sewn slings on cams and similar, besides Yates, there is also Mountain Tools:

http://www.mountaintools.com/cat/rclimb/cams/mt_camresling.htm

http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/slings/index.htm#9

Metolius and Black Diamond were also mentioned for replacing sewn slings on their own cams.

Personally, I use slings with water knots on most of my cams, unless the cam came with a sewn sling. I tighten the knots by bouncing on the sling, to make sure they don't loosen and untie at an inopportune moment. I prefer knots because I can maintain them myself, and they are easy to inspect. I don't know how to tell when sewn/bartacked stuff is getting weak, but I understand knots. I do use Spectra runners, though.

WBraun

climber

Oct 27, 2006 - 12:28am PT

I don't agree with anything here.

There is intelligent design ......

Keeper of Australia Mt

Trad climber

Whitehorse, Yukon , Canada

Oct 27, 2006 - 02:15am PT

Quite an interesting thread. I started into this game in 2001 and purchased a Mammut Flash (10.5) 60M rope - I have only used it occasionally ( in part because no one my age is climbing in this neck of the woods so it is a bit of a challenge getting out as the young turks tend to want to climb with their own age grade - a lot of my climbing utilizes guides and they provide the ropes)- it is stored in a Metolius rope bag in the front entrance of my house - so light and temp should not be an issue. About 2003 I bought a Mammut Triodess (10.5) 60M rope for leading but have not yet used it - same storage situation.
No serious falls on either. I figure the Flash is good for a couple of seasons more at this level of use and then I will pitch it. If I was doing some good multipitch and leading I would go to the Triodess.

Harness wise I initially bought a Trango one but it was a bit of tight fit so a couple of years back I bought an Arcteryx
harness -

My trad gear is in good shape - I can't seen any near term replacement issues with any of it - I tend to be oriented to caution and a tad of conservatism regarding safety - I bought high quality gear - none of the cheapie or used stuff. This found favor with Colin Morehead at Squamish Rock Guides and I put a lot of respect in what he has to say on this stuff. But it is always good to remember that all gear can potentially fail and just seems to be a good idea to implement effective backups where it is appropriate and possible - afterall the placements are free!

I have some cordelettes for trad anchors (my Jtree training under Clark Jacobs wired me with the beauty of those) and I have a couple of autoblock cords for rapping. Retirement cycling of those items is now embedded. I tend to use autoblocks all the time for rapping - a low cost, effective back-up - creates a slower rap but unless you are in the middle of a lighting performance and having to get out of the target zone in a hurry - it is no big deal. I have wondered though about the heat buildup and potential consequences thereof for using autoblocks in big, long raps - same with the belay device. Not a big worry in single pitch toproping but I wonder about big, long raps etc. Would be good to hear folks thoughts on that. Given the relative minimal cost of an autoblock, seems that seasonal replacment of those wouldn't be a big deal depending on level of use.

So in the end I am not going to go overboard on this but I do think this discussion is of value. Some of the testing identified in the thread would be very interesting and would be of value to the climbing community. Thanks to those sharing their expertise and experience with the rest of us.

Some of this makes me better appreciate some of Bob Gaines comments in Jtree - he spent a bit of time examining my harness and was commenting on construction attributes, bar tacks etc. The harness passed his inspection but I now have a better sense of what he was thinking about now.

I think we have to keep this one in perspective - given the numbers of climbing person hours on rock worldwide etc. - and really a very few incidents of this type - frankly it seems a bit out of whack given the real evidence of fatalities from not wearing a helmet or from rapping off the end of rope (when a simple knot at the end negates the issue). Common sense can go a long way and folks should be reviewing the quality of their gear regularly and confirming the integrity of it. I think Russ has this pegged pretty well.

McC

Trad climber

Livermore Ca

Oct 27, 2006 - 04:43am PT

Brian in Sl, GhoulweJ, and Larry - as related to your earlier posts, there were 2 tragic harness accidents that come to mind that had lawsuits associated with them and may have influenced Chouinard's decision to sell the climbing equipment portion of his business to the employees.There was a leader who fell out of his Culp harness on Ordeal at the Pinnacles. As I understood it from a witness to the event, the leader was clipped into the waist belt with a locking biner and had not tied into the essential tie-in loops on either side of the non-load rated belt buckle. Sounded like operator error. Other incident that comes to mind involved a guided client in (I heard) a BOD harness who presumably untied to commune with nature and did not properly tie back in when he resumed following -- or didn't double back his waist belt through the buckle. I think Bridwell had some insights on a situation like that. Might have been in the Tetons. Seemed like it was shortly after this that harness makers (BD and others) went to using a pair of stacked buckles.

Never met Todd Skinner, but am very sorry for Todd, his family and friends.

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Oct 27, 2006 - 11:32am PT

Other incident that comes to mind involved a guided client in (I heard) a BOD harness who presumably untied to commune with nature and did not properly tie back in when he resumed following -- or didn't double back his waist belt through the buckle.

Yeah, Tetons, back behind Jenny Lake on the practise wall.

Pretty sure it was a Culp as well. If you look at when it happened, I'm not sure Chouinard was offering a BOD or Alpine BOD at that time (which came out in '88 or so?). Asked JRAT, he also said it was a Culp.

If you tie into the Culp directly, through the tie in loops, it kinda negates the need for a buckle. Nifty feature.

I have an Alpine Bod that JRAT built for me when he was with BD. Added a belay loop before they became standard. Its well used and...needs to be retired. Note to self...

-Brian in SLC

Take!Take!

Trad climber

Durango Colorado

Oct 27, 2006 - 12:35pm PT

Study on webbing at Indian Creek.

Can't remember where I read it or who did the study, but some manufactor did a study of all the webbing at the belay stations at Indian creek because they were worried about the continued exposure to UV's in the desert.
Bottom line was even after continued expousure, some of the stuff had been there for upwards of 8 yrs, the webbing still retained like 95% of its orginal strength. Pretty durable stuff. I wished I could find the dang test data again......been looking for it.......but after I read there data made me feel alot better.

wbw

climber

'cross the great divide

Oct 27, 2006 - 01:59pm PT

I read a post in which the writer said they cringe whenever they use the belay/rappel loop. I agree 100%, so I never use it for either of those two purposes. I don't care what a manufacturer says . . it simply defies one of the most basic rules in climbing that I was taught nearly 25 years ago and try to follow: don't create unnecessary, additional links in the safety system because each one is a potential point of failure.

I use two, large locking biners that I attach to my harness at the same place where I thread the rope for tying in, both gates down and out. In this way I decrease the number of links in the system by one. There is a concern for cross-loading the biners, but that is easily managed by adjusting the orientation of them when necessary. And of course the fact that there are two, means that there is redundancy in that link of the safety system. That is another basic rule in climbing as far as I'm concerned: back everything up, especially when it is fast and easy. . . doesn't matter how "safe" the situtation seems.

Derek Hersey, a climber not exactly known for a "safety first" approach to climbing, always backed up his ratty old harness by using a method previously mentioned on this thread. He used webbing for his chalkbag that was tied snug to his waist, with a water knot, and then the climbing rope was threaded through that has well as the harness. I should probably say that when Derek was using a rope, he was actually quite safety oriented.

The fact that people are discussing these issues basic to climbing safety is a very positive aspect of this terrible tradgedy.

wootles

climber

Gamma Quadrant

Oct 27, 2006 - 02:07pm PT

You'll find a quick report on belay loops from Kolin at BD here:
[url]http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.php[/url]

chollapete

Trad climber

tucson, az

Oct 27, 2006 - 02:29pm PT

This seems like a relevant thread for this question:

I just recently got a daisy chain that I had been keeping girth-hitched to the belay loop of my harness and which I used to clip-in to the anchor chains when setting or cleaning anchors on sport climbs. I had been wondering about this practice because it represented a single point of failure; i.e., I wasn't backing up the daisy chain and the 'biner with anything else. So, this practice had been on my mind.

Then, sorting my gear after this year's Beanfest, a Tucson climbing tradition, I noticed that the fabric of the Spectra daisychain had begun to fray at the point where it was girth-hitched around the belay loop. This made sense, because I was just leaving it girth-hitched while I climbed. So, as it was located right in front, it would have constantly been rubbing and abrading against the rock face as I climbed. Seeing this, I decided to keep the daisychain off the belay chain, clipping it to a rear gear loop while I climbed and then only attaching it to the belay loop while I was actually using it. (A better harness with hard gear loops would solve this, too.)

But, I'm still wondering about the single-point-of-failure aspect of using a daisy-chain to tie-in to a single anchor while setting or cleaning a top-rope.

Any comments?

Thanks,
Mark T.

Paul_in_Van

Trad climber

Near Squampton

Oct 27, 2006 - 04:00pm PT

H_B;

you mentioned cross-loading of belay biners a while ago. I use a DMM belay master for belaying/rappelling. A plastic cross bar prevents almost all crossloading (and if it does get into the slightly crossloaded position it can, it tends to rotate back to the correct axis under higher loads). YMMV.

C_Pete;

I use the rope as a second tie in point for all multipitches and while at top stations (though not religiously for top stations, if I am on a ledge then I usually consider standing there as a point of protection for redundancy purposes). I also keep in mind the safety of the belayer leaving me on belay with slack rope as a backup (though the fall wouldn't be a lot of fun, I'm sure).

The advantage of the rope tie in is that you are generally connected to the tie in point with a rope (though I have seen people tie into the belay loop) and my other point of contact is girthhitched to my belay loop.

Paul

Gunkie

climber

East Coast US

Oct 27, 2006 - 04:57pm PT

I was watching this documentary called 'Cliffhanger' and there was a harness failure involved on a tyrolean traverse way off the deck. It looked like the buckle melted down.

If Gabe was only a little bit stronger or wore a little less body oil things may have turned out better.

We're all talking about harnesses, but I still flash back to a photo of Tom Frost aiding out under the Salathe' headwall on a few wraps of white 1" tube; no leg loops, no fleece lining, no gear loops.

I'm seriously beginning to apply the K.I.S.S. principal with my climbing set-up. Cut out the clutter and keep the gear in good condition.

Now who wants to join me for some free-hanging body rappels?

jstan

climber

Oct 27, 2006 - 06:11pm PT

On my first visit to the Valley T.M. told of one wall climber's finding a bit of masking tape on his new 1" swami, after reaching the top. The story may have just been for local colour. Great story in any event and definitely possible.

Cheers,

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