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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2015 - 07:09pm PT
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I agree Psilocyborg, this thread is probably not doing me much good. I've tried to put my point of view across, only to be told I'm "whining". If I wanted attention there are much easier ways to get it, (For example, I could post something stupid like: "All Americans are smug and self consumed"). I prefer, however, to stick to climbing related issues. How defiantly unhip is that!
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Aug 14, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
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There's a difference between collecting and presenting data on a social movement like climbing (FAs and repeats, lists, names, etc.), and exploring the history of the movement - which can be so much more. Once again, is there a real historian in the house?
Arguing baseball statistics can be deadly . . . boring.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2015 - 08:48pm PT
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I couldn't agree more jgill. Unfortunately, people out there just don't realize how difficult and time consuming it is to put together consistently gripping firsthand accounts of an historic nature.
I try very hard to get the 'good oil', believe me. Some climbers are extremely generous but most are too busy with other things to worry about Supertopo.
If my threads are missing that elusive "X Factor", I cordially invite people to put a thread or two together for themselves. They might find it a little more difficult than they think.
Talk is very cheap on supertopo: Put up, or shut up.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 14, 2015 - 08:55pm PT
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Quit complaining.
Write your stuff and let it sit and stand.
If only "ONE" person reads it but no one ever replies then you are successful .....
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2015 - 08:59pm PT
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Sorry Werner, but I have a right to a defense. If this thread is annoying you, then look elsewhere.
It's interesting to note than I'm the only one "complaining" here. Take a closer look Werner: it takes two to tango.
I know it's frightfully 'bad form' to criticize a legend such as yourself, but your comment was so laughably partisan, it demanded a reply.
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m.
Trad climber
UT
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Aug 14, 2015 - 09:10pm PT
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Love the history threads, Avery. Since I'm not an alpinist, I found the tales of Alaskan derring do absolutely gripping. Keep going.
mc.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2015 - 09:11pm PT
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That's all from me on this thread.
Good night and good luck.
Patrick Kavanagh, Blenheim, NZ (15/08/15)
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 14, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
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Avery
It's gonna take you 108 lifetimes to even begin to understand what I meant.
You missed the boat completely .......
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 15, 2015 - 06:43am PT
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Avery, being local, could fill us in on some N.Z. climbing history. Haven't heard a whole lot since Hillary.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2015 - 07:01am PT
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Hey Jim,
My NZ climbing history is pretty good up to the mid 80's. When I gave up serious alpine climbing in 1988, I no longer had any desire to keep up to date. Besides, after 20 something years in the region I was sick and tired of the NZ scene: Hence the overseas interest.
Having said that, I can always do a little research.
What would you like to know?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 15, 2015 - 07:12am PT
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When we did the FA of Torre Egger in 1976 there was a team of 11 Kiwis ( Murray Judge and Bill Denz among them) who were trying to do the same via a route the Brits had tried. They gave up their attempt after Phil Herron, their youngest member, died after falling into a crevasse.
I've often wondered what happened to some of them....Bill Denz I know about.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 15, 2015 - 07:13am PT
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hi avery,
i really really do like your threads. and i know it must be frustrating to see it fall below childish arguments between right and left. but thats how it goes. keep posting.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Aug 15, 2015 - 08:30am PT
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Avery, I read your posts and find them interesting. Keep them coming.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 15, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
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Can you believe that Donini: he is so stuck in the future!?
Good on you Jim, and all the best.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Aug 15, 2015 - 03:12pm PT
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Avery
You and Steve Grossman do some great threads about climbing history!
(one of my favorite books is Chris Jones' Climbing in North America.
A great read!
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2015 - 03:52pm PT
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"Do Kiwis have an interest in their climbing history?"
No Dingus, they probably don't.
I reached saturation point with my own mountains, which is unfortunate, but true.
I see your still experimenting with irony. It's a pity I served you up such a great opportunity. (I should've seen that one coming)
Thanks for keeping me human.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
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Hey Jim,
I think climbing, for most of them, kind of petered out.
I knew Tim Wethey quite well in the 80's. He turned to rock-climbing. It took him a long time to recover from the Herron accident.
Murry Judge, one of NZ's best, still climbs, I believe. He had a very successful time in Yosemite (with Denz).
As for Franklin, Logan, Thompson, Gough and Stanton, I have no idea.
Herron's death was a real tragedy. Who knows what he might have accomplished, had he been spared.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 16, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
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Avery....Phil Herron was a wonderful young man, I think he was only twenty. I was in the Kiwi camp when Tim came down from the glacier after Phil fell into the crevasse. He was wild eyed and the backs of his hands were trashed from hitting them against the ice trying to rescue Phil.
The weather was atrocious and Phil and Tim were the only ones still in the snowcave at the base of their route. John, Jay and I had left our snow cave a couple of days earlier.
Phil and Tim decided to leave the cave and go down to basecamp. They left the cave and encountered horrendous whiteout conditions. There was a path marked with wands down the glacier that they believed was safe from crevasses but in the whiteout conditions they lost there way. Tim fell into a crevasse up to his armpits and was able to extricate himself. He looked around for Phil and finally saw a hole where Phil had fallen in.
Tim had no rope and had to make his way in atrocious conditions back to the snowcave to get one. He got back to where Phil had fallen in, anchored the rope, and rappelled down to Phil.
At the end of the 50 meter rope the crevasse narrowed and Tim saw Phil tightly wedged a few meters below him. Phil amazingly, given the length of the fall, was still conscious.
Tim tried for several hours to extricate Phil, badly injuring the backs of his hands in the process. That far down in the crevasse the ice was simply too hard and Phil was to tightly wedged. Daylight was waning and Tim realized that he needed help and very reluctantly started to jumar up out of the crevasse. As he was doing do Phil said, I paraphrase, "look, I know I'm going to die but tell everyone that I have no regrets."
When Tim got to the surface of the glacier it was nearly dark and the storm was unabated. He, with tremendous difficulty, made it back to the cave and spent the night. At first light Tim made his way back to basecamp to give the alarm.
We all went up to the accident scene as quickly as we could but, despite it being marked by Tim, had quite a bit of difficulty finding the hole which had drifted in. We finally found it and one of the Kiwis, I don't remember which one, rappelled down to Phil. After some time he resurfaced and informed us that Phil had died.
It was snowing heavily with cold, hurricane force winds and everyone was in serious danger of getting hypothermia as there was simply no shelter. We had no choice but to leave Phil in the crevasse and retreat back to basecamp.
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overwatch
climber
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Aug 16, 2015 - 05:04pm PT
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Damn that is a heavy story. Thanks for sharing it. Talk about a brutal goodbye... guy sounded very brave, I can only hope to comport myself with such grace in those circumstances
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Aug 16, 2015 - 07:02pm PT
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Ed Hartouni makes a case for history as being of primary interest to the older climber, one past the point of making history, which he says takes precedence over learning about history.
Perhaps that is true now, but it wasn't always the case. I, for example, grew up as a climber on climbing history, Buhl, Rebuffat, Herzog, Brown, Bonnington, Harrer, Wiessner, etc, etc. I think the main reason I and most of my contemporaries avidly devoured climbing history was that our passion for climbing far outstripped our ability to go and do it, and some of the space between dreams and opportunities was filled with reading about the great epics of previous generations.
Climbing is a far more immediate activity for today's climbers. Evenings in the gym, local crags and boulders provide, if desired, an almost constant diet of the real thing, with action replacing anticipation and no down-time required. History, and the reveries that go with it, are crowded out by actual doing.
And so I find myself, a superannuated climber, less drawn to history than I was as a teenager, the exact opposite of the phenomenon Ed describes, because now I can fill such time as I have for climbing with...climbing.
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