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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 12, 2015 - 01:03am PT
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Do Americans have an Interest in their Climbing History?
As a Kiwi, cataloging some of the more colorful mountain routes in the US, I sometimes wonder whether I'm just wasting my time: there appears to be so little real interest.
The threads I put together are not done for my own private amusement. I always hope to engage people with something interesting and maybe spark a bit of debate (or spirited discussion). Alas, looking back, I've only been partially successful.
What are your views? Is there too much climbing history on supertopo (or not enough)? What do people like myself need to do to engage the reader?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 12, 2015 - 01:41am PT
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You're doing an excellent job.
It's hard to measure the interest level, because as far as I can see, supertopo does not display a "page views" counter on Forum threads.
It just counts the number of followup posts.
(For Trip Reports, the "views" number can be found on the index page)
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/forum_trip_reports.php
It might be worth asking if there are other formations / routes that people would like to see more detailed history for. Or maybe it's the photos more than the climbing history that are of interest?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 12, 2015 - 02:40am PT
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Keep it up Avery. Personally, I have more interest in rock climbing history, since that has been my focus throughout my life, but I like it all.
I have very much enjoyed all the alpine threads you have put together, even though I haven't posted to all of them. I understand your frustration with threads you have worked on falling off the front page.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2015 - 03:33am PT
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Thanks Survival.
It's not so much falling off the front page that frustrates me. That's inevitable at some stage. Besides, if you fall into that trap you find yourself posting all sorts of meaningless nonsense, just to stay there. (I'm sorry to say I was guilty of that myself in my early ST days).
There's a lot of work involved in these threads, and I do enjoy putting them together. The bottom line for me, however, is interest and feedback. Without that, these threads are nothing more than dry historical documents.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2015 - 03:48am PT
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I agree with you Clint.
I think a photo is worth a thousand words, particularly when climbing is involved. I've personally contacted (literally) dozens of people for climbing pics. They've all been very enthusiastic about contributing, but when push comes to shove the vast majority have evaporated. I'm not blaming anyone in particular. The simple fact is, people are too busy living their lives to worry about minor concerns such as climbing threads. Having said that, It would save me a lot of time if people were up front about their real intentions from the beginning. I understand how the world makes unexpected claims on our time.
Many thanks to the people who have contributed.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Aug 12, 2015 - 06:44am PT
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History threads are great. But, you aren't going to get all the froth and lather that are the mainstay of the political, religious and personal attack threads.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 12, 2015 - 06:47am PT
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I have climbed thru the last 50 years of American climbing history and have, as such, gained an appreciation for some of the amazing accomplishments over the last half century.
When I first started climbing in the sixties I devoured books written by Gervasutti,, Bonnatti, Terray and Buhl. I was enthralled by the adventures of these larger than life climbers.
As my climbing progressed I became more involved in doing it than reading about it. I now rarely read about climbing unless it is an article about an area I'm interested in visiting.
I am always amused about the nostalgia I see on Supertopo for old gear. I don't have any climbing gear that isn't the latest, state of the art, equipment. To me gear is a means to an end and nothing more.
I personally think that if you really live climbing you become, to some extent, infused with it's history. Sometimes, as climbers age, they become more interested in the past then in the present. I hope that never happens to me,
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 12, 2015 - 07:10am PT
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Good and well-presented points, Jim. You are nearly unique in that you have lived the history in that span of time, yet rarely stop to crow about your successes or be bitter over the fails.
For the average climber, needing to raise a family, to start a career, or to go into business, life calls him to those different paths, and he must content himself with the state of the art as it is revealed in magazines and on the net, practically stealing time from his pursuit of success to go relax during a casual weekend filled with camaradarie and moderates. I imagine the older one gets the less time one must spend on getting ahead or at least even, but the time for doing major ascents is nearly past.
One learns to "settle for less."
That means reading reports/threads like Avery's or Marlow's, too, on historic routes and historical figures involved in these ascents and others. It's not like they want to get into a discussion, just read the story and go on to another, then go put the kids to bed or go sit figuring out bills.
Avery, people DO read these and it would be interesting to know the exact numbers, but good luck with that! You and Marlow, both you guys are doing a service and a thank you is in order.
People just have so much time to recreate, be it for reading or actually climbing. It's no wonder they don't even bother to say thanks, I liked reading that. They haven't the time and don't expect you care, either, I suspect.
Cheers and keep it up. And thanks.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Aug 12, 2015 - 07:20am PT
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The history is the best part of this forum. Keep it up.
Is it just my impression but do the youngsters these days care less about history than we did when young?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 12, 2015 - 07:26am PT
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Another thought Avery. Your threads are in the same category as TR's......they are much more appreciated than the number of responses would indicate. Look at a typical TR and the number of views vs. posts......usually ten times more views.
Political and religious threads stay on the first page because a few posters with closely held and wildly divergent views argue back and forth ad nauseum.
I've always said that viewers who enjoy a climbing content thread should post a little thank you even if they don't have more to contribute.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 12, 2015 - 07:28am PT
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When I first started climbing in the sixties I devoured books written be Gervasutti, Bonnatti, Terray and Buhl. I was enthralled by the adventures of these larger than life climbers.
As my climbing progressed I became more involved in doing it than reading about it. I now rarely read about climbing unless it is an article about an area I'm interested in visiting.
I am always amused about the nostalgia I see on Supertopo for old gear. I don't have any climbing gear that isn't the latest, state of the art, equipment. To me gear is a means to an end and nothing more.
I personally think that if you really live climbing you become, to some extent, infused with it's history. Sometimes, as climbers age, they become more interested in the past then in the present. I hope that never happens to me,
For me, the reverse. Started climbing int he 70s, and me and my friends only cared about the here and now, the moves, the excitement, the thrill of it all. History? Old guys? They were slow and in the way. It was our turn. Could not give a damn.
It took many years for me to slow down a bit, to look around and appreciate something of where climbing came from, where it's going, to want to understand the motivations of others.
I can't climb as well as I used to but my wider appreciation of climbing history, of the context for why we find ourselves clambering awkwardly up yet another stupid cliff, makes up for that.
Have at it Avery. Supertopo is far from ideal as a repository for climbing history, many supertopo posters appear not to care at all, but the threads you start will likely be around long after we are all gone, for others to enjoy, when it's their time and they come looking.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 12, 2015 - 07:32am PT
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I dig both the Avery and Donini perspectives.
One still climbs and remembers and one doesn't climb but still remembers.
I'm glad you both post-thanks and keep it up.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Aug 12, 2015 - 08:12am PT
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Climbing history is good, excellent stories of climbing or other adventure are even better...
... often history defaults to the best and most durable stories...
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Aug 12, 2015 - 08:18am PT
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Nope, climbing history sucks. No interest here! Now if you could only post a political history lesson. That's money...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 12, 2015 - 08:38am PT
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you may also be suffering from a misperception that no one is reading your threads, a perception based on the number of responses you receive...
If you look at the Trip Reports from that tab you'll see the number of "views" far exceed the number of messages posted to the TR thread.
It might be nice to know how many "views" other threads garner... but if that matters to you (in terms of deciding whether or not to continue to produce in the manner of the great threads you have authored) you might post your "histories" in the Trip Report section of SuperTopo. There is a precedence in doing so, since you are usually discussing particular routes or areas (though they might better appear in the "route beta" tab area, that is not currently setup like the TR area. Not only that, your ability to get fresh material from the teams definitely constitute a belated TR.
One other possibility has to do with Chris McNamera "promoting" some Forum threads to the "Articles" section of SuperTopo, which currently has only a select authorship (Chris being prominent).
as for history, it is usually more an interest to older people. There is only so much time in the day, and how one decides to spend that time involves a process of prioritizing competing opportunities. If you could go out and "make history" why wouldn't you choose that over writing/reading history? As you get old, you might "make history" by just showing up and being the oldest to do this or that... but this reflects the ability to survive in reasonable enough physical shape... not some actual climbing talent.
There are exceptions, but as Donini taught me, of the three factors involved: heredity, luck and life-style, you only control one.
The short answer to your OP title question is: no.
For the most part, American's possess the attribute of forgetting the past. Part of it has to do with the nature of America's creation, representing a new beginning and leaving the "old world" behind, along with all it's history. Many of the good things about America have to do, precisely, with forgetting about the past.
As a culture we value the new, it's not that we don't like the old, we just have no memory of it... this allows us to catapult enthusiastically into affairs without the slightest notion that others have done it before, and with no preconception of the impossibility.
While there are often spectacular successes in this approach, there are equally spectacular failures.
Finally, I apologize for not participating and contributing more to your threads... I am the victim (and it is a lifelong affliction) of trying to do way too much and not getting even a fraction of it done. Sitting next to me on the floor is the box of Mountain magazines that has a Bridwell article apropos of one of your thread topics, waiting to be scanned and posted.
Climbing intervened, along with other climbing projects, and all that other stuff too...
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Aug 12, 2015 - 08:41am PT
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Climbing history should be is as important to climbers as world history should be to humans.
I remember Tobin talking one time about lines on a mountain or face, of their beauty and how they almost begged to be climbed. Of the handful of short routes I have put up in my life, the line and the route beckoned to me to climb it. There is no other explanation other than that climbing them was the only true way I could have experienced them. Much goes the same for all the routes I have climbed in general. Of course the fear factor was greater on longer and more difficult routes but the motivation was the same, to experience the beauty of the line and the route.
Knowledge of our history gives us perspective beyond our own experiences and abilities. It also gives us an appreciation for our place and the place of other climbers within the sport.
I deeply appreciate reading, Avery, your threads on great climbs, the alpine routes, and their climbing history.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Aug 12, 2015 - 09:19am PT
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Years from now, this will be a vital document in the history of gear. For posterity:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Aug 12, 2015 - 09:22am PT
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I think when many people begin climbing, they really aren't too interested in the history aspect. But natural curiosity may prompt most climbers to delve into the past and once you start, it's really interesting to understand how this funny occupation has evolved, not only equipment-wise, but, more interestingly, how the people in each generation of climbers pushed the mental and physical limits to the present state.
I think most climbers, if they stick with it for a while, do get into the history. Even Americans, with our infamous inability to remember anything beyond the last sound-bite.
Don't be discouraged. It's a worthwhile endeavor and adds greatly to the richness of this strange and funny thing we do!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 12, 2015 - 09:25am PT
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I am one of those climbers that started out in a gym but mountains are in my DNA and I gravitated towards understanding the origins of our sport pretty soon into it. I think there are many who share that gene I got.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 12, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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Donini is a wise man...
Though I remember stories about a certain Patagonian route, Maestri and a couple of excitable young guys...
So interest in history?
Is history just... history... the past?
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 12, 2015 - 10:30am PT
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Some Americans do and some Americans don't. Some people do and some don't. Nobody gets it their way all the time.
You post some of the coolest stuff on this forum, Avery. But that is just my viewpoint. What I don't understand is why people complain so much about something not going in a direction they like when it was never meant to be that way. Did you sign on here thinking that it would always be just how you wanted it? You could plainly see by just observation alone that this never happens here or any place in the world.
How does one find that place where all is good? Not by changing the world with all it's faults , but by changing the way you look at it. The former, impossible, the latter, liberating.
How does one assess the degree of truth in any statement? By the degree one acquires liberation.
"the argumentative defense of any proposition is inversely proportional to the the truth contained."
If life was a poker game and you win every hand, nobody would want to play with you anymore.
That said, I think you are a gift here, Avery.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 12, 2015 - 10:47am PT
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My current view point is from the climbing mecca that is Eastern Washington.
Almost everyone I climb with is under 30. They don't seem to care much about the history of climbing. Couldn't tell John Bachar from Johnny Carson. They do know who the current crop of internet/social media climbing stars are but they don't seem to go much further back.
BUT, they have incredible energy and stoke. I think it is more a physical game for them. They aren't looking for an alternative social outlet. They just love to climb (and run, ultimate frisbee, hang out etc.). They just are not looking for a bigger meaning in climbing.
Sometimes I think they are being goofy kids but I find more often their energy and enthusiasm gives me that little extra I need!!
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Aug 12, 2015 - 10:56am PT
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Avery, next time you go to a world class art museum, watch how much time the average person spends looking at a masterpiece. And that work probably took the artist a month or more to paint.
The art is certainly valued, but you might not know it from the individual appreciation it is given. It's best to do things for your own satisfaction and not have any expectation of feedback. Look at Marlow! Some of his threads get 1-2 replies, but he keeps plugging away! As many have said, views are not tallied on posts, only comments.
Your threads are like little works of art. I do look at them often and appreciate them. But I'm a lot more interested in living my life and doing things in the real world than in spending time here, so I don't even have time to read every climbing-related post many days.
Stick around Avery, we appreciate your input.
Phyl
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Aug 12, 2015 - 11:19am PT
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What are your views? Is there too much climbing history on supertopo (or not enough)? What do people like myself need to do to engage the reader?
It comes down to what YOU enjoy. If you enjoy the research and historic aspect about some of the climbs, you should not care about how useful is it to public in general. Unless you do it for the public.
Personally, at times I read about some of the historic climbs. But I like the actual climbing more than finding out who did the 3rd ascent of Mt. Robson, how many hours did House/Twight/Bakes take on the Slovac Direct or who did the first ascent of the North America wall. Unless I am interested in some area or a particular story, I would rather read about ways I can improve own climbing technique. For example, when I was going to Hyalite for the first time, I read the Alpinist magazine Hyalite profile, and found it damn interesting. Would I read a Ouray profile if it came out today? Nope. But someone will....
My point is that there is always SOMEONE out there that finds these things interesting if they come across it. I bet some lurkers who won't ever post on this forum find the research you do interesting, and you will never know. If YOU are excited about it, that's the reason to continue. When you will stop giving a sh#t, stop. :)
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Aug 12, 2015 - 11:30am PT
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Avery,
At least what you post here is climbing related. I always give your threads a look; since I'm probably more interested in what happened in the past, than the latest 4.14 sport route.
Many good comments here, and I agree with most of them.
Keep up the good work your doing!
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Aug 12, 2015 - 11:38am PT
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Ditto here too, I do greatly enjoy reading them, especially when some of the participants chime in.
It is great that you are resurrecting all of these old articles. I read most of them when they originally came out and used to have most of them. Multiple moves and downsizing have caused me either to lose all those mags and journals or they were accidentally dropped off at the donation center in boxes labeled "old books and magazines".
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 12, 2015 - 11:45am PT
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The fact that guidebooks tell you everything you can figure out for yourself and none of the FA stories of the routes has always left me of the opinion people don't really care about the history.
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clode
Trad climber
portland, or
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Aug 12, 2015 - 11:58am PT
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Avery, I'm guilty as charged. Wait, who charged ME with anything? Anyway, I almost always open your posts because they ARE climbing related. I started climbing in 1970 as a freshman in high school. I enjoy DOING things, especially outdoors. Climbing is only one of them. Also, I estimate my view-to-post-a-rely ratio is easily 100:1, perhaps more. Catch (upthread) said it quite well, as did Donini, Warbler and many others who have posted a reply to your OP. While I haven't climbed in years (had to sell my gear to afford my house down payment), I think about climbing almost every day. I log on to Supertopo mainly for entertainment. And your posts ARE an important part of that entertainment. I say keep it up, I (and many others) DO appreciate the effort!
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Aug 12, 2015 - 01:33pm PT
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I think a lot of american climbers like to know about some history but don't really appreciate it to the point where they will read volumes on it. I used to read everything I could get my hands on, but now there is so much on the internet and it is so easy to find there is little pride in telling your friends about some new area or the tough as nails pioneer.
Also I think american climbing history is so diverse and spread over such a huge geographic area that it never really devoloped a hierarchy that may have developed in a country like NZ where you might get recognized for doing something brilliant and work up to the big mountains. There is great climbing being done regionally all over this country. Maybe they are just doing and not recording.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Aug 12, 2015 - 01:49pm PT
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once again--if you don't learn your history you're doomed to hear your history teacher repeat it.
I'm digging on the Alaska epics-please keep the posts roling
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 12, 2015 - 02:33pm PT
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Where is Grossman? Where is Grossman?
Dormez-vous? Dormez-vous?
Probably working on his book.
Sugar from an old wine bottle.
Some history is better than another history, like vintage wine.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Aug 12, 2015 - 03:31pm PT
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All of the climbing history I know is from the Taco.
As N00btastic N00ber, I have a narrow view of climbing history that is presented through this forum. I mean, I have very little knowledge of Gunks climbing history, for example.
As such, I know only a narrow slice of Climbing History, expanded by only a few books that I've managed to plow through over the years. The fact that reading historical content can be difficult for me may be a result of the fact that I'm far far more susceptible to a good, well told story, than scholarly non-fiction historical content.
So if you want a different group of people interested in Climbing History, perhaps it's all about presentation?
Also, I still have a thing for roped nuts, that helps too. And the lycra and short climbing shorts time period.
So, yes, this American has an interest in Climbing History...but only to a certain point. Bring me in to Climbing History me further? We'll see! I'll try!
Cheers
LS
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2015 - 04:58pm PT
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"What I AM interested in: First-person narratives of intense experiences climbing notable routes."
"What I am NOT interested in: Lists of "first five ascents of XYZ"
"Your threads seem to me to fall into the latter category."
I agree with your first comment "ELcapinyoazz"
However, it's extremely difficult to get 'fresh' personal accounts. (Believe me, I've tried). My advice is try it for yourself. Who knows, you may have more luck than I do.
If you took the time to read beyond the title page on a lot of my threads, you'll find some personal accounts. (Most are from the AAJ, it's the only truly reliable source).
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Sport-o-land
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Aug 12, 2015 - 05:09pm PT
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Avery, the threads you start are amazing! Keep it up. A lot of people probably read them but just don't comment which is probably a good thing as its makes it easier to get right to the good stuff. Which there is a great amount of.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Aug 12, 2015 - 05:18pm PT
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The best part about history is you realize there were many great climbers a long time ago.
What would Conrad Kain or Fritz Weissner be climbing now if they were 30 years old?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 12, 2015 - 09:01pm PT
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Appreciate history and the threads. Keep 'em coming!!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Aug 12, 2015 - 09:15pm PT
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A coupla days ago I saw one of your new historic threads and thought to myself that you are bringing the kind of quality climbing content to ST that the site was intended to do. I didn't want to add any fluff to that thread with a kudo, though, so I refrained.
Your threads are good stuff, Avery. Keep it up.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2015 - 09:31pm PT
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Thanks apogee, I appreciate your words of encouragement.
I think I had some kind of 'brain explosion'. I was looking through my last thread (Mooses Tooth, East Face)and all I could see was wall to wall American Alpine Journal reports. For whatever reason, no one was moved to comment. That was a new experience for me.
The thread was a boring rehash of past articles, so I immediately deleted it. Something I bitterly regret now. (It would be very easy to redo)
Warm thanks to everybody for their words of encouragement. It really does make a difference!
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Aug 13, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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You are annoying. That might be a reason 'Mericans don't post to your copy and paste threads. Some of your stuff is interesting but you always get butthurt when someone says something you don't like and delete a lot of threads. Another reason not to post on your history of climbing. Personally i only care about firsthand accounts. You just regurgitate old info that most climbing historians already know about. Stop lumping all Americans together. That would be a start.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Aug 13, 2015 - 03:13pm PT
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Keep posting Avery. I love your posts and appreciate the work you put into it.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Aug 13, 2015 - 03:29pm PT
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Where is klk when you need him? Kerwin is a history professor at Berkeley and one of his specialties is the history of climbing. Last I heard he was working on a book about the evolution of rock climbing. A professional historian can bring to light all sorts of societal influences affecting the sport.
I've been corresponding with Catherine Destivelle who runs a publishing company and she is shepherding a book on the history of rock climbing. It promises to be quite inclusive. She obviously thinks there is a market.
Youngsters initiated into the sport in indoor gyms may think of it like tennis or golf; it's for the doing, not the reading and philosophying.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Aug 13, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
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All of the climbing history I know is from the Taco.
Scary....
Actually, there is a lot of good content here and good resources; all you have to do is ask. Old school guidebooks are some of the best sources of history.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Aug 13, 2015 - 03:46pm PT
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History is very important for those contemplating a first ascent.
You certainly don't want to repeat history when you were hoping to make history . . .
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 13, 2015 - 04:12pm PT
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Nearly all of my interest is in my climbing future....what's left of it.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2015 - 06:48pm PT
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Thanks for your advice, Lurkingtard.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 14, 2015 - 04:23am PT
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I have been developing a pretty cool cliff near Dartmouth college. the entire area just reeks of history. On the other side of the valley is a small populer mostly top ropeing crag with a few established leads that is the hub of activity for most of the dartmouth students. I remember clibing there 20 years ago and asking why aren't we over there on the big cliff? The answer was its a choss heap and closed for birds. It is a fairly active ice climbing area and aparently Ward and Chris Smith had a look at it 30 years ago. They made it as far as where the good ice climbing is and saw a bunch of soaking wet slabs, turned arround and went to Rumny. The rest is history.
Anyways the rock is mostly face climbing and does not lend itself to many gear routs. There is the occasional old pin or rusty bolt with a story to tell. I have been as carefull as possible to not retro bolt any old routs. There is a faint line between two of our routes. Fairly run out 1/4 inchers and a pin to the midpoint belay ledge that just fizzeled out. My Gut feeling was that the bolts were part of a winter effort to get to ice that forms on the upper part of the cliff. A few days ago my buddy Ryan brought Andy Tuttle There to climb the big wide cracks that we have been so intrigued with. He said he had not climbed them before but thought the bolts in the first pod must have been bail bolts?( I agree?) then they did one of our climbs next to the old bolts that I thought were a winter mixed climb. Andy ponderd a bit at the belay and then declared " I think I placed that bolt?" Turns out it was an ice climb in 1990 before we knew what mixed climbing was(joke). I was super stoked to hear this history and Andy was stoked on our new climbs.
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Fish Finder
climber
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Aug 14, 2015 - 06:27am PT
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Hi Patrick
You need to follow your passion and not give a fukc who cares
Once you get to the point where you dont delete things on this site you will have matured and your body of work will stand alone
If its attention you need then post little video clips of you doing the jig
or puking or start a thread about selfies
but expecting accolades for posting articles from the past .... aint gonna happen as most of us live in the now
Best Gregg
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2015 - 07:09am PT
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Thanks Greg,
I never recall asking for accolades.(I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong)
I was a little dismayed about the lack of interest in my latest thread. I've already admitted that it was a mistake to delete it. For the record, how would you like me to say it: standing to attention draped in a black flag!
Nobody has mentioned the inconvenient fact that I have around a dozen fully operational threads at this moment on Supertopo.
So I urge you Greg, take a little time out from the 'here and now'. Who knows, you might even like what you find.
Patrick Kavanagh, Blenheim, NZ
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2015 - 07:11am PT
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Thank God for people like you, Dingus. Your worth your weight in gold.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 14, 2015 - 07:23am PT
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Ah Alaska.....went there fourteen years in a row. What's not to like about it.......steep, technical climbing to be had, planes landing you at the base of your climb and weather better than Patagonia.
Managed to spend all of that time there and not set foot on Denali....Foraker, Hunter, Thunder Mountain, Barille, Wake, the Moose's Tooth, Bradley, the Kitchana Spires et al provided much better sport without the crowds.
Avery, I don't understand your fascination with the number of ascents a route has. I've been on forty plus expeditions and only tried to repeat one route and that was because my partner was inexperienced.
When it comes to alpine climbing....once a route has been done I loose all interest in it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 14, 2015 - 09:30am PT
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American Climbers and Their Interest in History
In the 70s when there were only a handful of major climbing areas in the USA, these locales were steeped in their histories from prior decades. The histories were concentrated in a few areas and climbers visited nearly only those few areas. Climbing areas HAD history. A lot of the information about climbs and styles passed around was oral and as such was often couched in historical terms. Even so, most of our cultural appreciation and functional application of histories didn't extend much further back than 15 or 20 years. We were also emulating and extending an ethos which those prior climbers championed. Once that changed in the mid-1980s, the functional chain of those histories was broken.
Now that time (the 70s) is 40 years in the past! When we were in our teens did we really care about stuff 40 years prior to our arrival? No, that was asking a bit much, because things had changed enough that the practical link was thin and the utility of those histories was less apparent. We knew mostly about the direct influence of Robbins and Kor and Sacherer. (Even reading Herzog and Rebufatt: their exploits were mostly of the 50s, just 20 years prior). In the 70s we knew plenty about the Golden Age climbers and were directly affected by them. We definitely cared what Robbins and his generation had to say. The routes we climbed were festooned with their old pitons and bolts, so there was plenty of outstanding evidence to spur our interest. We were doing FFAs of their routes, so of course we knew the history, or some of it. If you'd asked me in the 70s about climbing 40 years prior I wouldn't have felt so strongly connected.
Nevermind Americans particularly, but it seems to me a lot to ask of modern youngsters to expect them to enjoy a living context for the stuff we did 30 or 40 years ago. Surely the context is there, but it's appreciation is more academic than practical. For example, I just learned young Australians by and large don't even know about Kim Carrigan.
Now with climbing so diversified and practiced in so many locations and so much of it happening in artificial environments, those histories are less relevant, at least in practical and functional terms of the routes most people now climb. The scope has broadened so much. Also, this is the information age. People can stay tightly focused on their immediate goals and get all the information they want online … maybe too much so! With all of that going on, the practical benefit of seeking deep history is less pronounced, even in the 15 to 20 year range, nevermind the 30 to 40.
So it seems history has become detached from the functional needs of climbers, even more so than it had for past generations.
An example of an exception: let's take doing new routes in the High Sierra or in any mountain range. From a practical standpoint, climbers seeking those experiences probably want to know what came before, so there is utility in examining the history; there is a sense of a living link which serves a functional purpose. It's an extension of an ongoing narrative which hasn't changed so much in terms of style so that history still matters to those particular climbers.
I recently enjoyed a narrative account written by a modern professional sport climber, Paige Claassen. For her, To Bolt or Not to Be at Smith Rock was of historical interest and significance. The history of the route enriched her experience of the climb. She understood the context of thin slab as an old one, but sought to understand it as a virtue in her growth as a climber. But direct context was still a relevant factor defining her interest, because she knew about the route as a child. So again, there is that functionally relevant 15 or 20 year span showing itself in Paige's experience.
http://paigeclaassen.com/to-bolt-or-not-to-be/
I doubt I answered your question directly Avery (Patrick!), but those are my thoughts on the broader topic.
 Roy
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Fish Finder
climber
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Aug 14, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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"Nobody has mentioned the inconvenient fact that I have around a dozen fully operational threads at this moment on Supertopo."
nobody has to because you just did
For me its more about the human nature (personality) than the actual climb
But your efforts do have merit
ex: Surgeon General- by bringing up the history in a thread, it has brought us to the present as EE and Dana have ripped it up recently
It must take some time to pull up all the old articles and Im sure you must read some, perhaps if you added some info that you have learned about the individuals , the quirky, the uncanny, the eccentric -= you may pull in more people to comment
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Hard Rock
Trad climber
Montana
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Aug 14, 2015 - 02:29pm PT
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History and the Mags for the old climbers: I've noticed that thet mags will repeat the popular climbing areas about every 10-15 years. They will repeat the history section again and again. I let my subscription die for a while. But the subscriptions have gotten cheaper. Some issues I can finish in a half hour (nice of them to save me time in my old age).
As to old climbing gear: Some of the youth don't even want to climb with my stuff. But the nice part is - no one every steals anything from my rack and if it does get mix up on a big trip I will always get it back.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Aug 14, 2015 - 02:59pm PT
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I have never climbed in Alaska, or New Zealand, and only one summer in the Canadian Rockies, but I really appreciate your threads featuring these places. I have only commented on one or two of them, but have read them all with great interest and sometimes amazement.
For example,the accounts of ascents of the North Face of Alberta contain some incredible stories and photos.
Thanks for the threads and the effort, Patrick.
Rick
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
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Thanks for your kind words, Rick. Kudos to Tarbuster for his thoughtful statement.
The history in the majority of my offerings is actually quite recent. There certainly not the cobweb strewn threads some people suggest they are.
Thanks also to Greg for his insights. I may not agree with you, but I do take your comments seriously. Your Surgeon General idea has great possibilities. I'm friends with Dana, so it could be a realistic prospect. The statement about my operational threads was there merely to illustrate a point, nothing more.
I have tried in the past to post Yosemite threads, but kept running in to all sorts of copyright issues. It was a pretty harsh learning curve.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
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Thanks Jim,
My fascination with a given route's number of ascents is all about history.
No two accounts are the same. Each one has a life of its own. Some repeats are effortless others are epic. It's all part of the kaleidoscope we call the climbing experience. I sincerely believe there's a lot there for people to enjoy and possibly learn from.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Aug 14, 2015 - 03:47pm PT
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I read and enjoy all your threads. There is so much stupid bs on here, your threads are a little Ray of sunshine...except this one. This threads sucks.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 14, 2015 - 05:42pm PT
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I never recall asking for accolades.(I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong)
I was a little dismayed about the lack of interest in my latest thread. I've already admitted that it was a mistake to delete it. For the record, how would you like me to say it: standing to attention draped in a black flag!
I love your threads.
BUTT. if you are dismayed about lack of interest, i can only deduce that you might be an attention whore.
like many others, i have only aspired to climb some of the walls you post about. so what is there to say? good job avery, thanks?
how many of those do you need?
you are smart enough to know that the routes and walls you have posted about have only been climbed by a few so I am not sure what can be gained by me saying "i read about that in mags once".
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 14, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
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Yep...regional rock climbing history would mesh well with a regional rock climbing forum like Supertopo.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2015 - 07:09pm PT
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I agree Psilocyborg, this thread is probably not doing me much good. I've tried to put my point of view across, only to be told I'm "whining". If I wanted attention there are much easier ways to get it, (For example, I could post something stupid like: "All Americans are smug and self consumed"). I prefer, however, to stick to climbing related issues. How defiantly unhip is that!
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Aug 14, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
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There's a difference between collecting and presenting data on a social movement like climbing (FAs and repeats, lists, names, etc.), and exploring the history of the movement - which can be so much more. Once again, is there a real historian in the house?
Arguing baseball statistics can be deadly . . . boring.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2015 - 08:48pm PT
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I couldn't agree more jgill. Unfortunately, people out there just don't realize how difficult and time consuming it is to put together consistently gripping firsthand accounts of an historic nature.
I try very hard to get the 'good oil', believe me. Some climbers are extremely generous but most are too busy with other things to worry about Supertopo.
If my threads are missing that elusive "X Factor", I cordially invite people to put a thread or two together for themselves. They might find it a little more difficult than they think.
Talk is very cheap on supertopo: Put up, or shut up.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 14, 2015 - 08:55pm PT
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Quit complaining.
Write your stuff and let it sit and stand.
If only "ONE" person reads it but no one ever replies then you are successful .....
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2015 - 08:59pm PT
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Sorry Werner, but I have a right to a defense. If this thread is annoying you, then look elsewhere.
It's interesting to note than I'm the only one "complaining" here. Take a closer look Werner: it takes two to tango.
I know it's frightfully 'bad form' to criticize a legend such as yourself, but your comment was so laughably partisan, it demanded a reply.
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m.
Trad climber
UT
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Aug 14, 2015 - 09:10pm PT
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Love the history threads, Avery. Since I'm not an alpinist, I found the tales of Alaskan derring do absolutely gripping. Keep going.
mc.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2015 - 09:11pm PT
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That's all from me on this thread.
Good night and good luck.
Patrick Kavanagh, Blenheim, NZ (15/08/15)
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 14, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
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Avery
It's gonna take you 108 lifetimes to even begin to understand what I meant.
You missed the boat completely .......
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 15, 2015 - 06:43am PT
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Avery, being local, could fill us in on some N.Z. climbing history. Haven't heard a whole lot since Hillary.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2015 - 07:01am PT
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Hey Jim,
My NZ climbing history is pretty good up to the mid 80's. When I gave up serious alpine climbing in 1988, I no longer had any desire to keep up to date. Besides, after 20 something years in the region I was sick and tired of the NZ scene: Hence the overseas interest.
Having said that, I can always do a little research.
What would you like to know?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 15, 2015 - 07:12am PT
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When we did the FA of Torre Egger in 1976 there was a team of 11 Kiwis ( Murray Judge and Bill Denz among them) who were trying to do the same via a route the Brits had tried. They gave up their attempt after Phil Herron, their youngest member, died after falling into a crevasse.
I've often wondered what happened to some of them....Bill Denz I know about.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 15, 2015 - 07:13am PT
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hi avery,
i really really do like your threads. and i know it must be frustrating to see it fall below childish arguments between right and left. but thats how it goes. keep posting.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Aug 15, 2015 - 08:30am PT
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Avery, I read your posts and find them interesting. Keep them coming.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 15, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
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Can you believe that Donini: he is so stuck in the future!?
Good on you Jim, and all the best.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Aug 15, 2015 - 03:12pm PT
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Avery
You and Steve Grossman do some great threads about climbing history!
(one of my favorite books is Chris Jones' Climbing in North America.
A great read!
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2015 - 03:52pm PT
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"Do Kiwis have an interest in their climbing history?"
No Dingus, they probably don't.
I reached saturation point with my own mountains, which is unfortunate, but true.
I see your still experimenting with irony. It's a pity I served you up such a great opportunity. (I should've seen that one coming)
Thanks for keeping me human.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
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Hey Jim,
I think climbing, for most of them, kind of petered out.
I knew Tim Wethey quite well in the 80's. He turned to rock-climbing. It took him a long time to recover from the Herron accident.
Murry Judge, one of NZ's best, still climbs, I believe. He had a very successful time in Yosemite (with Denz).
As for Franklin, Logan, Thompson, Gough and Stanton, I have no idea.
Herron's death was a real tragedy. Who knows what he might have accomplished, had he been spared.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 16, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
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Avery....Phil Herron was a wonderful young man, I think he was only twenty. I was in the Kiwi camp when Tim came down from the glacier after Phil fell into the crevasse. He was wild eyed and the backs of his hands were trashed from hitting them against the ice trying to rescue Phil.
The weather was atrocious and Phil and Tim were the only ones still in the snowcave at the base of their route. John, Jay and I had left our snow cave a couple of days earlier.
Phil and Tim decided to leave the cave and go down to basecamp. They left the cave and encountered horrendous whiteout conditions. There was a path marked with wands down the glacier that they believed was safe from crevasses but in the whiteout conditions they lost there way. Tim fell into a crevasse up to his armpits and was able to extricate himself. He looked around for Phil and finally saw a hole where Phil had fallen in.
Tim had no rope and had to make his way in atrocious conditions back to the snowcave to get one. He got back to where Phil had fallen in, anchored the rope, and rappelled down to Phil.
At the end of the 50 meter rope the crevasse narrowed and Tim saw Phil tightly wedged a few meters below him. Phil amazingly, given the length of the fall, was still conscious.
Tim tried for several hours to extricate Phil, badly injuring the backs of his hands in the process. That far down in the crevasse the ice was simply too hard and Phil was to tightly wedged. Daylight was waning and Tim realized that he needed help and very reluctantly started to jumar up out of the crevasse. As he was doing do Phil said, I paraphrase, "look, I know I'm going to die but tell everyone that I have no regrets."
When Tim got to the surface of the glacier it was nearly dark and the storm was unabated. He, with tremendous difficulty, made it back to the cave and spent the night. At first light Tim made his way back to basecamp to give the alarm.
We all went up to the accident scene as quickly as we could but, despite it being marked by Tim, had quite a bit of difficulty finding the hole which had drifted in. We finally found it and one of the Kiwis, I don't remember which one, rappelled down to Phil. After some time he resurfaced and informed us that Phil had died.
It was snowing heavily with cold, hurricane force winds and everyone was in serious danger of getting hypothermia as there was simply no shelter. We had no choice but to leave Phil in the crevasse and retreat back to basecamp.
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overwatch
climber
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Aug 16, 2015 - 05:04pm PT
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Damn that is a heavy story. Thanks for sharing it. Talk about a brutal goodbye... guy sounded very brave, I can only hope to comport myself with such grace in those circumstances
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Aug 16, 2015 - 07:02pm PT
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Ed Hartouni makes a case for history as being of primary interest to the older climber, one past the point of making history, which he says takes precedence over learning about history.
Perhaps that is true now, but it wasn't always the case. I, for example, grew up as a climber on climbing history, Buhl, Rebuffat, Herzog, Brown, Bonnington, Harrer, Wiessner, etc, etc. I think the main reason I and most of my contemporaries avidly devoured climbing history was that our passion for climbing far outstripped our ability to go and do it, and some of the space between dreams and opportunities was filled with reading about the great epics of previous generations.
Climbing is a far more immediate activity for today's climbers. Evenings in the gym, local crags and boulders provide, if desired, an almost constant diet of the real thing, with action replacing anticipation and no down-time required. History, and the reveries that go with it, are crowded out by actual doing.
And so I find myself, a superannuated climber, less drawn to history than I was as a teenager, the exact opposite of the phenomenon Ed describes, because now I can fill such time as I have for climbing with...climbing.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2015 - 08:38pm PT
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Thanks a lot, Jim. I've never heard the story in such detail. I worked along side Tim for about five years in the early to mid 80's. Naturally, the subject of Herron's death never came up.
I'm not sure if you ever had a chance to experience it, but Tim was one of the funniest people I've ever met. I'm not certain, but I think he found religion in the 90's.
Cheers.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Aug 16, 2015 - 08:42pm PT
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Donini! Although it is a sad story, thank you for sharing your Phil Herron death memories.
It makes this thread a worthwhile historical read.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 16, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
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Yeah, wow, what Fritz said.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2015 - 10:08pm PT
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 16, 2015 - 10:13pm PT
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I have a great picture of Phil that I'll post tomorrow.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2015 - 10:49pm PT
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Thanks Jim. I've spent the last few hours trying to find a pic of him. I've got one in the NZ Alpine Journal (His obituary), but I need to scan it.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2015 - 07:55pm PT
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The late Phil Herron.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 28, 2017 - 08:07am PT
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Bump for a 4-star thread.
(Give it another go, Avery.)
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Sep 28, 2017 - 10:05am PT
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Being an octogenarian, just about anything I post IS history. I love "to flesh out the story, and bring the history to life."
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 28, 2017 - 10:14am PT
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And we so love reading your lore, Don.
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