Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 241 - 260 of total 3586 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 5, 2015 - 10:20am PT
Talkin bout stealing from Peter to pay Paul;

For decades, critics and top brass have warned that the Pentagon’s defined benefit pension (earned after 20 years of service) is growing exponentially more expensive. Annual outlays for military pensions exceed $50 billion and will double before today’s lieutenants become generals. Liabilities of the program are $1.3 trillion (roughly one tenth of size of the U.S. GDP) and will rise to $2.8 trillion in 2035.

As alarming as those numbers might be, fiscal woes are not the real problem. The real problem is that the military services need to modernize talent management, but they are stuck with this anachronistic pension structure.

As the Gates commission noted in 1970, the all-or-nothing vesting of the retirement benefit at 20 years isn’t fair and hinders talent management. Another problem is that benefits pay out immediately upon retirement instead of at 65 or some other fixed age. These sweet features distort work incentives on both sides of the cliff. Too many personnel stay in uniform before the 20-year cliff, and too few stay after.

Twenty years until vesting is four times longer than what is legally allowable in a private sector pension. Why? It is coercive. And it’s not just distorting the behavior of the employees, but the employers as well. In 1978, a few years after the All Volunteer Force was enacted into law, the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) was calling for an end to the 20-year cliff in a clearly titled report, Retirement Security: The 20-Year Military Retirement System Needs Reform:

This outright thievery from our unknowing naive children!!!!!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 5, 2015 - 10:33am PT
Craig, I mostly agree with you but, in reference to Greece: Retirement in your fifties with full benefits- well, isn't that what Tea Party hacks want for the "white man"? It doesn't work.

Many Americans are worried about funding retirement. Not Bernard Parks. The former Los Angeles police chief retired at age 59 with a pension that paid 90 percent of his final years’ earnings – a tidy $265,000 annually. And then, like millions of former public employees who retire young, he was able to pick up another job while still collecting that rich pension.

A year after his official retirement, Parks became a Los Angeles City Councilman, earning $179,000 annually. Together, his pension and pay net him some $444,000 – roughly $44,000 more than the annual earnings of President Barack Obama – and considerably more than Parks’ pre-retirement pay.

Rich retirement payments to government workers have long been a source of “pension envy,” but payments for people like Parks are now a topic of heated national debate because public retirement funds are fast running out of cash. A recent analysis by Joshua D. Rauh, professor of finance at Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management, found that public pensions in four states – Illinois, Connecticut, Indiana and New Jersey – could run out of money this decade if nothing is done. Another 23 systems are slated to go belly up before 2029, according to Rauh. As taxpayers struggle with layoffs, stagnant wages and “frozen” benefits, they’re becoming increasingly disenchanted with the seemingly sacrosanct employment and benefit prospects in the public sector, leading some to predict a coming war between public and private sector workers.

While Rauh’s study has its detractors – the National Association of State Retirement Administrators disputes some of his assumptions – everyone agrees that pension funds operated by state and city governments are rapidly running short of the cash needed to fund their promises.


What happens then? If the systems aren’t revamped, the pensions will eat up an increasing portion of state and municipal budgets, laying waste to parks, libraries, roads and other public services – as well as working cops, firefighters and other current employees. Need to fill potholes and keep cops on the beat? Taxpayers would have to shoulder the burden with higher annual levies.

“We are on the precipice of a disaster,” said Marcia Wagner, founder of the Wagner Law Group, a Boston-based employee benefits law firm. “We have massive underfunding that will take up more and more of state budgets, squeezing other things out.”

In Ohio, where Rauh estimates the public retirement systems will run out of cash in 2030 and require 52 percent of state revenues to fund benefits, teachers commonly “retire and rehire.” Just recently, for example, Kettering school district superintendent James Schoenlein said he wanted to retire – and return to his old position at a lower annual salary. On the surface, the deal would cut the Kettering school district’s payroll, paying Schoenlein just $130,000 instead of more than $155,000. But add that to his retirement pay, which amounts to 90 percent of the average of his highest three-years' pay, and Schoenlein will take home more than $250,000, according to the Dayton Daily News.

A dozen state pensions have moved to stave off bankruptcy by boosting contributions required of existing workers and by cutting some future benefit accruals. But most state systems have done nothing—and even some of those that have acted may not have done enough.


Public pensions, unlike pensions provided in private industry, often allow payment of benefits after a set number of years of service, regardless of your age. As a result, an individual could go to work for a public entity when he was 20, “vest” in his pension benefits by age 40 and then “retire,” collecting payments for the next 40 or 50 years.

“Those are promises that are impossible to sustain unless the population and the economy are growing at a break-neck pace,” said Peter Morici, former chief economist for the U.S. International Trade Commission. “You don’t have to have a PhD in finance to realize that you can’t give people 90 percent pensions at the age of fifty and not have the system go bust after a few years.”

Public workers commonly get a generous 1.8 percent of wages for each year they’ve worked, if they’re also covered by Social Security, said Keith Brainard, research director for the National Association of State Retirement Administrators. Those who don’t participate in Social Security, such as many teachers and public safety workers, get considerably more – often 2% to 3% of pay for each year worked. Someone who started work fresh out of college could get 50 or 60 percent of their pay at age 42 and be able to collect that pension for life – regardless of whether or not they took another job and continued working. In New York, the hot tip is to work 20 years for one public agency; quit and get a job for another public agency for the next 20 years, said Morici. Then, after 40 years of work, you have two pensions that deliver 100 percent of your working wages.


In private industry, where only about one-fifth of workers get a defined benefit pension, payments dramatically less generous. Typically, employees get just 1.25 percent of wages for each year they worked, and they’re unable to claim any pension until after they hit the age of 65.

Other differences: Some public pensions give you a multiple of your “highest” year’s pay – even if that year was boosted by overtime – others only factor in “final” pay, and wink at those who “spike” it by allowing significant raises to be granted to people who are on the brink of retirement, said Wagner. In addition, public pensions are frequently adjusted each year to account for higher costs. Unlike Social Security, which is adjusted for inflation, public employee pensions are often adjusted by a set amount, say 3 percent per year. Pensioners receive that increase even when the economy is bad enough to create declining prices.

A recent New York Times investigation found that 100 retired police and fire fighters in Yonkers were making more retired than they did working. Why? They “spiked” their pensions by loading up on overtime in the years before retirement. Hugo Tassone, a 44-year old pensioner, told The New York Times that he merely took advantage of what the system allowed. The result: He took home $74,000 annually when employed, but gets $101, 333 retired.

A federal law called ERISA does not allow companies to pull pensions that have already been earned. As a result, many companies told workers that they would not be able to accrue new benefits and new workers coming in wouldn’t get a traditional pension – they’d have to save by personally contributing to 401(k) plans.

State and municipal governments are not regulated by federal law. Instead, their pension rules are set by state charters and constitutions that often say that new workers can’t be denied the pensions promised to existing workers, says Wagner. But these charters can be changed at will. The problem: There’s little will to do it since unions wield considerable political clout.

Adds Morici: “When you look at the grip of the unionized interests on state governments, it is just impossible for the pensions not to fail and the governments to fail with it. Yet, some progress has been made. Kansas, for example, made sweeping changes to its public employee plans, boosting employee contributions, changing benefit formulas and boosting age and service requirements to encourage people to wait until age 65 to retire. In California, where the state’s budget deficit exceeds $19 billion, four public employee unions agreed to a raft of changes that hike employee contributions and raise the retirement age for newcomers. And revisions are in the offing in several additional states, which could help preserve the pensions without tapping taxpayers to do it.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Sep 5, 2015 - 10:33am PT
Bernie Sanders remains useful in writing of bills. A social activist doesn't equate to leader of the land. More to the job then pointing out social issues. Admire his desire to help people but had no other ability to lead.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Sep 5, 2015 - 11:09am PT
Arguing with ultra-conservative, fundamentalist is usually non productive, but I would like to hear Cragman explain how a Republican is going to win the White House after Trump leaves the party in ruins. Pencil out a Ben Carson win..go ahead. More challenging that low-hanging fruit picking, repeating conservative media's extremist talking points.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Sep 5, 2015 - 11:11am PT
Yeah, We've been there-done that, down in SD, BLUEBLOCR.

Cause: The city Council, behind closed doors, wrote an unsustainable, sweet benefits package for themselves, the firefighters, the police, the city lifeguards and pretty much every other city employee. "I got mine!" Ironically, one of the only dissenters was a liberal, surf lady named Donna fry. None the less, the city of San Diego has amazing workers and they deserve a lot.

Effect: the city attorney at the time, sued to nullify the retirement agreement under the grounds that it was enacted illegally. He advocated rewriting a sensible retirement package, to remain in the management of government ( no middle man). He was pretty much run out of town. What the final result was, everyone hired up to that agreement got theirs, the city almost went bankrupt, and now most city employees are hired as temps or get the killer 401k plan (middle man).

To be fair, this was while taxes were being slashed for the wealthy. Pretty much a toxic mix happening all over the country.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Sep 5, 2015 - 11:22am PT
I agree with Pyro. Mr Sanders is powerful voice for the working class - underclass. When too many capitalists take advantage of too many people the playing field will be leveled by a socialist.

If the successful and wealthy work hard to take care of people and uplift them, there is no need.

He's doing a good job of scaring them into being nice.



My speculation, Hillary can beat Bernie to the nomination. I think Hillary would beat Trump but Bernie would not beat Trump.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 5, 2015 - 11:45am PT
BLUEBLOCKER...... Thanks for the great post.

In the past, getting that Government Job meant that you might make less $$$$$ in your paycheck, BUT a secure, good retirement awaited you after a regular length career...... Somehow that has been turned on it's ear.

And Madbolter.... referring to your post about how retired folks in Chicago are loosing the homes that they have paid for because of higher and higher property taxes..... Thats why PROP13 was enacted in California. We can never allow that to be changed by greedy state legislators who will need more and more $$$$$ to satisfy the needs of the retired sate workers.

So we find ourselves in 2015 in this circular mess with seemly no way out....

No wonder people like Saunders, Trump, Warren, Walker and the rest of the candidates are in this, they all have something to offer to people who are disenchanted with the way things are now.

Hillery and Bush, both stand for the status quo.

And that is precisely the reason why my slogan for 2016 is:

"Anybody- except Bush or Clinton."

So yea... Ill be ready for Bernie or????????




crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Sep 5, 2015 - 12:10pm PT
Hillary has a 24 point lead over Bernie. Maybe some of you naysayers should look at where she stands on the issues. And when Bernie endorses her, what then?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Sep 5, 2015 - 12:25pm PT
Crank, it seems to me that Hillary is quite willing to change her opinion based on how it'll help her, not the people.

Bernie is unflinching, and has many years of public service. He's been well known and well liked here for decades.

I'm with Bernie, I think he'd make a terrific POTUS. Just because his name is new to you doesn't mean that he's a noob.

Maybe it's time for a real change.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 5, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
Hillery is a crook, lair and a cheat and she showed her complete lack of effectiveness as Sec of State... yes I do look at Benghazi as proof.

She is not even close to being the the good politician that Bill was.

Deal making is the name of the game, in government.

So just because she is/was Bills sometime sperm depot in no way qualifies her
to be prez.

Bush is tied into the SAME crooks and stupid morons as his bro and dad were.

So thats why my bumper sticker is: "No Bush or Clinton in 2016"



crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Sep 5, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
Ben Carson winning is as likely as Cragman having an opinion he didn't glean from Hannity. Not gonna happen.

Brandon, I'm a fan of Bernie's. I'd happily vote for him over any of the screwball Republicans. But if he drops out and endorses Hillary, will you?
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Sep 5, 2015 - 01:17pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 5, 2015 - 01:18pm PT

In the past, getting that Government Job meant that you might make less $$$$$ in your paycheck, BUT a secure, good retirement awaited you after a regular length career...... Somehow that has been turned on it's ear.

Yeah ur right. It all started back in the 70's-80's when the Gov. couldn't get educated people to sign on because they could make big money in the private sector where business was booming from blossoming technology and an exponentially expanding population.

The Government literally bribed people onboard with money they didn't have. The Gov. waged its sins on the assumption on a growing future population, and basically a mandatory 6% wage increase annually. Well that worked great for a couple decades and nobody balked.

Here we are today with the rise in pensions basically paying two salaries for one fire chief. One active, and one retired. It doesn't make sense intellectually, and it certainly doesn't make sense economically!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Sep 5, 2015 - 01:19pm PT
The anti-Hillary campaign of lies disgusts me,
and every rant of BS about her is a blatant expression of being a duped anti-Hillary droid.
A product of the right wing media.

The fact that you don't care about any other SOS makes you a Hypocrite.
All of the W. Bush e-mails were on the RNC PRIVATE server, and Rove deleted millions when subpoenaed by Congress, and then he never showed up to his trial date, In Contempt of Court.
Millions of Classified e-mails all Gone forever describing the torture programs and other subversive activities, thanks to Rove.

Colin Powell, private server
Condi Rice, RNC server

Were the torture tapes on a Private server???
What about Trump's server? will he use a Government server??????
No he will not.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 5, 2015 - 01:21pm PT

So thats why my bumper sticker is: "No Bush or Clinton in 2016"

How about; "No Clinton's bush in 2016!"

; )
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Sep 5, 2015 - 01:25pm PT
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Sep 5, 2015 - 01:44pm PT

Do you both actually think that you're being robbed?

Sorry, I should have put robbed in quotation to show I was using his word for it in our banter.

I don't feel robbed at all and in fact being in position to help others gives me a good feeling which is a "return" om my monies paid out.

I'll further qualify that that I'm talking about the needy.
While the slackers do need weeded out, even Bill O'Rielly has crunched the numbers and found that there really aren't all that many poor mooching off the government. I'd be more concern about corporations abusing the welfare they receive.

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Sep 5, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
Hillary is a tool.

In the aftermath of the neocon's abuses, the Obama administration set protocols to show that they are not "them"-Hillary has proven, with uncertainty, that she is one of "them".

Don't forget, she pulled the "Jeremiah Wright" card at the peril of election. She also voted for the war, as a crass calculation to give herself the best shot at the nomination-"mushroom clouds" and "yellow cake"...remember that?

I'm sad to abandon a talented lady but like other Clinton blunders, this was self inflicted.

Privately the Obama staff is furious with Hillary, evidenced by a deafening silence on the matter. I suppose there is a push, supported by Obama to get Elizabeth Warren in (provided Biden doesn't run). Watch out Wall Street!
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 5, 2015 - 02:04pm PT
Fry..... you are wrong. You have swallowed the big lie, hook line and sinker. Wake up! - Wise up! You are a smart man.


I'd be more concern about corporations abusing the welfare they receive.

Right on, why do we subsidize Tobacco Farmers, while at the same time spend $$$$$$$$ on anti smoking programs...

Corn growers to make fuel??

Defense Contractors to make ever and ever more sophisticated weapons... at unbelievable prices and then make them obsolete every 10 years or so?

The hi-speed train???

Its time to change the business as usual folks in Washington.

It starts with the prez... Trump, Bernie?

We still have a long time till the election.... go get some popcorn and don't be so quick to make up your mind. The show is just starting.

Norton

Social climber
Sep 5, 2015 - 02:13pm PT
Hillary winning the White House is as likely as Crankster posting climbing pictures.....not gonna happen.

really?

then explain how she does NOT get to 270 Electoral Votes to be President

take your time and lay it all out
Messages 241 - 260 of total 3586 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta